http://www.collateralmurder.org/

[cunt sauce]

no i need a rebuttal to that.

[christo-f]

Well that was a pretty decent post and one that I consider a pretty good reason to keep chatting on the issue as we are drifting towards conversation rather than mutual frustration.

 

Busy right now, will respond later.

 

Actually, do you mind if we take this to the strategy thread? As that is basically what this convo is about and your last post notions towards something called the security dilemma and is basically the constant that traps nations in to having particular foreign policies.

 

If you don't mind, can I reply in that thread?

[russell jones]

I made a post up there christo if you have a minute.

[Zig]

Well that was a pretty decent post and one that I consider a pretty good reason to keep chatting on the issue as we are drifting towards conversation rather than mutual frustration.

 

Busy right now, will respond later.

 

Actually, do you mind if we take this to the strategy thread? As that is basically what this convo is about and your last post notions towards something called the security dilemma and is basically the constant that traps nations in to having particular foreign policies.

 

If you don't mind, can I reply in that thread?

 

i didn't return to this thread because i thought it was over, didn't expect you to respond.

 

sure, do what you want. i doubt i'll respond to anything you don't put into this thread though, especially if your taking it to the strategy thread because i specifically don't post in that thread since i don't want to turn it into a different kind of argument or conversation or whatever. but, do what you want.

[christo-f]

Ah well if you're not going to respond then I won't bother.

 

I don't mind discussing these things as long as there is no venom in the discussion. I prefer to leave out the "must be fucking blind", "don't understand a thing", crap TBH. Sometimes I just let my childish side get the better of me.

 

So if you're happy to discuss your opinion of strategy, no matter how much it differs from mine, in a measured and unemotional way, then fire away. If not, we'll just leave it, all good.

 

 

 

Russ, I'll hit that up in the strategic thread as well. It may be a few days though, the world is a busy place.

[russell jones]

word

[Zig]

http://org2.democracyinaction.org/o/5966/t/9615/p/salsa/web/common/public/content?content_item_KEY=2491

 

Ethan and Josh claim that though their unit was following the Rules of Engagement that day, they are taking responsibility for their role in the incident and initiating a dialogue around it; "Though we have acted with cold hearts far too many times, we have not forgotten our actions towards you. Our heavy hearts still hold hope that we can restore inside our country the acknowledgment of your humanity, that we were taught to deny."

 

The letter, which they hope to get to the family who lost their father and whose children were injured in the attack, states that they "are acknowledging our responsibility for bringing the battle to your neighborhood, and to your family. We did unto you what we would not want done to us."

[christo-f]

These guys saying that ROEs were followed has no bearing on the issue of them being shot. They weren't the guys in the chopper pulling the trigger.

[Zig]

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=123673&sectionid=3510203

 

Steiber pointed out that he did not personally know the pilot in the video because they were attached to his unit only on that one fateful day.

 

However, the former US Army specialist was not surprised by what was on the tape.

 

"You're focused on the physical aspect, but all along there is a psychological aspect."

 

"I think it would be wrong to put all [the blame] on the individual soldier. I think it's very telling that the secretary of defense, [Robert Gates], came out over the weekend and said there is no wrongdoing in the video."

 

"And so if you're only adjusting a few soldiers when the secretary of defense is putting his stamp of approval on this, then the system is not gonna change."

[christo-f]

It's pretty standard practice in all militaries to tacitly encourage ignorance in soldiers. Racism, aggression, disdain for empathy, etc. You don't want soldiers to have sympathy for the enemy, you don't want them questioning what is going on and you don't want them to entertain thoughts concerning existentialism when there is a job to do. War is a brutal and grim job, you want people to act brutally and welcome the grim if you want that job done. You also want to keep that element of soldiering separate from their public image at home as democratic nations are traditionally adverse to having brutality used by those representing them. Basic military doctrine that goes back millennia.

 

 

However if they were singing the songs sited in that interview, that is rather abominable and rather antithetic when the US is operating on a COIN doctrine in Iraq/Afghan. Winning the hearts and minds of the local populace and supporting the stability of their community and country is paramount in dissuading them from supporting the insurgency. That means you need to be very sensitive towards the civilians..., which obviously being nonchalant over killing women and children is not.

 

McChrystal has constantly been reacting to the collateral damage on civilians in Afghanistan. Last week a bus carrying women and children was destroyed near Kandahar and he is now reviewing the ROEs. IT was also reported that US SF had a high number of civilian deaths from their ops in country so McChrystal bought all SF operations under his direct control in order to reverse that trend.

 

We always here and see stuff like the guys getting shot up by the helicopter but you never really hear about the opposite side of the story, such as what McChystal is doing in Afghanistan. You have to be careful to survey as much info as you can, not just that which confirms your own position.

 

And just on that, be really careful when siting Iranian press, which is what PressTV is. Of course ALL information should be viewed with a skeptical eye and a critical approach. However Iranian media is heavily and overtly controlled by the government and clergy and is less objective than most. That may not have much concern regarding this particular article, just something to keep wary of in general.

[lord_casek]

Peace be with you,

 

To all of those who were injured or lost loved ones during the July 2007 Baghdad shootings depicted in the "Collateral Murder" Wikileaks video:

 

We write to you, your family, and your community with awareness that our words and actions can never restore your losses.

 

We are both soldiers who occupied your neighborhood for 14 months. Ethan McCord pulled your daughter and son from the van, and when doing so, saw the faces of his own children back home. Josh Stieber was in the same company but was not there that day, though he contributed to the your pain, and the pain of your community on many other occasions.

 

There is no bringing back all that was lost. What we seek is to learn from our mistakes and do everything we can to tell others of our experiences and how the people of the United States need to realize we have done and are doing to you and the people of your country. We humbly ask you what we can do to begin to repair the damage we caused.

 

We have been speaking to whoever will listen, telling them that what was shown in the Wikileaks video only begins to depict the suffering we have created. From our own experiences, and the experiences of other veterans we have talked to, we know that the acts depicted in this video are everyday occurrences of this war: this is the nature of how U.S.-led wars are carried out in this region.

 

We acknowledge our part in the deaths and injuries of your loved ones as we tell Americans what we were trained to do and what we carried out in the name of "god and country". The soldier in the video said that your husband shouldn't have brought your children to battle, but we are acknowledging our responsibility for bringing the battle to your neighborhood, and to your family. We did unto you what we would not want done to us.

 

More and more Americans are taking responsibility for what was done in our name. Though we have acted with cold hearts far too many times, we have not forgotten our actions towards you. Our heavy hearts still hold hope that we can restore inside our country the acknowledgment of your humanity, that we were taught to deny.

 

Our government may ignore you, concerned more with its public image. It has also ignored many veterans who have returned physically injured or mentally troubled by what they saw and did in your country. But the time is long overdue that we say that the value of our nation's leaders no longer represent us. Our secretary of defense may say the U.S. won't lose its reputation over this, but we stand and say that our reputation's importance pales in comparison to our common humanity.

 

We have asked our fellow veterans and service-members, as well as civilians both in the United States and abroad, to sign in support of this letter, and to offer their names as a testimony to our common humanity, to distance ourselves from the destructive policies of our nation's leaders, and to extend our hands to you.

 

With such pain, friendship might be too much to ask. Please accept our apology, our sorrow, our care, and our dedication to change from the inside out. We are doing what we can to speak out against the wars and military policies responsible for what happened to you and your loved ones. Our hearts are open to hearing how we can take any steps to support you through the pain that we have caused.

 

Solemnly and Sincerely,

Josh Stieber, former specialist, U.S. Army

Ethan McCord, former specialist, U.S. Army

[Fist 666]

it bothers me that they used 'for god and country' in that.

[Zig]

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/apr2010/emcc-a28.shtml

[skullnbones]

Update: On July 6, 2010, Private Bradley Manning, a 22 year old intelligence analyst with the United States Army in Baghdad, was charged with disclosing this video (after allegedly speaking to an unfaithful journalist). The whistleblower behind the Pentagon Papers, Daniel Ellsberg, has called Mr. Manning a 'hero'. He is currently imprisoned in Kuwait. The Apache crew and those behind the cover up depicted in the video have yet to be charged. To assist Private Manning, please see bradleymanning.org.

 

5th April 2010 10:44 EST WikiLeaks has released a classified US military video depicting the indiscriminate slaying of over a dozen people in the Iraqi suburb of New Baghdad -- including two Reuters news staff.

 

Reuters has been trying to obtain the video through the Freedom of Information Act, without success since the time of the attack. The video, shot from an Apache helicopter gun-sight, clearly shows the unprovoked slaying of a wounded Reuters employee and his rescuers. Two young children involved in the rescue were also seriously wounded.

 

Short version

http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=http%3A//www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D5rXPrfnU3G0%26feature%3Dplayer_embedded

 

Full version

http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=http%3A//www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3Dis9sxRfU-ik%26feature%3Dplayer_embedded

 

The military did not reveal how the Reuters staff were killed, and stated that they did not know how the children were injured.

 

After demands by Reuters, the incident was investigated and the U.S. military concluded that the actions of the soldiers were in accordance with the law of armed conflict and its own "Rules of Engagement".

 

Consequently, WikiLeaks has released the classified Rules of Engagement for 2006, 2007 and 2008, revealing these rules before, during, and after the killings.

 

WikiLeaks has released both the original 38 minutes video and a shorter version with an initial analysis. Subtitles have been added to both versions from the radio transmissions.

 

WikiLeaks obtained this video as well as supporting documents from a number of military whistleblowers. WikiLeaks goes to great lengths to verify the authenticity of the information it receives. We have analyzed the information about this incident from a variety of source material. We have spoken to witnesses and journalists directly involved in the incident.

 

WikiLeaks wants to ensure that all the leaked information it receives gets the attention it deserves. In this particular case, some of the people killed were journalists that were simply doing their jobs: putting their lives at risk in order to report on war. Iraq is a very dangerous place for journalists: from 2003- 2009, 139 journalists were killed while doing their work.

 

 

I realise a lot of people won't want to read all of this so just watch the short version of the video.

http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=http%3A//www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D5rXPrfnU3G0%26feature%3Dplayer_embedded

 

 

Thoughts??

 

 

 

edit: I'm aware those links aren't correct but I don't have a youtube account so couldn't view them.

[100%juice]

the U.S government murdering innocent civilians. this is old news. as in, the U.S. government has been murdering innocent civilians since before The Trail of Tears. right on for posting it. but murderers do what murderers do. they kill the those who are unable to defend themselves. right now its the american people who are responsible. it was approval ratings that put the U.S. military where it is right now. not the past president, and not the current one either. americans should be outraged at themselves for giving bush the thumbs up via your approval. you let the blood hungry brainwashed armed forces out, then get all "oh my god i cant believe this murdering!!".

 

http://www.hist.umn.edu/~ruggles/Approval.htm

 

see those numbers jump by 25% when the occupation started?

[christo-f]

Oh god, you've got to be joking.....

 

Iran doesn't "murder", India doesn't "murder", China doesn't "murder", Bangladesh doesn't "murder", the Philippines doesn't "murder", Vietnam doesn't "murder", Lebanon doesn't "murder", Armenia doesn't "murder" France doesn't "murder", Ethiopia doesn't "murder", Algeria doesn't "murder", Russia doesn't "murder", Jordan doesn't "murder", Germany doesn't "murder", the Netherlands doesn't "murder" and the Nigerians and Sudan sure as hell don't murder either.

 

It's America that does all the murdering in the world and no one has ever done this before and will ever do it again. This is a break in history and a total anomaly in natural existence. Look at nature, no other living creature or plant kills for dominance of resources, only Americans kill others.

 

 

You guys are artificial and it's all your fault. I can't wait until you all go away and the world can go back to its peaceful, stabile and utopian self, the way it always was before you barbarian murderers came along!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Seriously, some people live in a fucking fairy world of make believe. And these people will never be the ones to change the world because they have an artificial view of it. Ghandi may have got the British out of India without violence but many of the Indians were beaten, arrested and killed in the process, Ghandi himself was also killed, The Hindus and Muslims ripped each other apart in the process of partition and now you have both countries with nuclear weapons, outside of the NPT, running terrorist proxy forces against each other and shooting at each other across the border EVERY day. He didn't change a fucking thing.

 

Wake up and smell the blood, hippy.

[Zig]

Seriously, some people live in a fucking fairy world of make believe. And these people will never be the ones to change the world because they have an artificial view of it. Ghandi may have got the British out of India without violence but many of the Indians were beaten, arrested and killed in the process, Ghandi himself was also killed, The Hindus and Muslims ripped each other apart in the process of partition and now you have both countries with nuclear weapons, outside of the NPT, running terrorist proxy forces against each other and shooting at each other across the border EVERY day. He didn't change a fucking thing.

 

I agree with you and definitely understand where you're coming from, but I'd just like to make one point. Ghandi may have not changed anything, but ideas are bullet proof and Ghandi is eternal in that sense. Historically he will have a lasting and impacting effect on future generations, because you never know who may follow in that mans footsteps and what may happen because of the actions that individual took.

 

But I definitely understand where you are coming from.

[christo-f]

Yeah groups like Otpor/CANVAS are following in his footsteps and are used by American organisations to make things happen around the world. The best example was the Orange Revolution in Ukraine that moved the country from Russian influence to the West. Now look at it, Yanukovic is back in, the Black Sea fleet has a new 25 year lease in Sevastopol, the Russians have been given license to operate intelligence services on the Crimea again and Kiev has stopped their attempt to qualify for NATO.

 

Serbia was their genesis and probably their most successful but they've also had many, many screaming failures and now the "other side" is copying their tactics, which is what we saw in Kyrgyzstan at the end of Q1. Until the tactics of REAL peaceful protest are used (not the kind that we saw on the Mamara) for intrinsic purposes of freedom rather than a political gain by foreign interests then I can't see it being a lasting change.

 

I am encouraged to know that this is happening just east of me and sincerely hope that it is for local benefit, not outside plans. Will be interesting and horrible to watch if it ever becomes a coherent action.