ANOTHER ROUGH WEEK FOR AMERICAN LIBERALISM/SOCIALISM

[Decyferon]

no i dont need to put a jar outside my house because I contribute to society through my taxes.

 

Americans really need to get off this high horse that the constitution is this great document that saves human nature because frankly the rest of the world does fine without it.

 

My arguements are not about supporting Obama, they are about common sense in the modern society and this unwavering support of the constitution is silly and that if anyone is critical of it then they are heathen scum/communist blah blah.

 

You say my arguement is backwards, I find yours to be just as backwards.

[angelofdeath]

"I'm sorry but this whole issue of I shouldn't be forced to participate arguement just seems very selfish and childish to me."

 

ah yes. the selfish argument.

 

why arent you adopting babies that are dying in third world countries, giving your entire take home pay to feed the hungry and giving up your iphone so some poor person can have a doctors visit?

 

this argument is the very same argument used by all mass murders in the 20th century.

'why those pesky kulaks, talking about their pitiful rights, being selfish with their land and those childish dissidents who wont give into our collectivism!' or 'those childish jews, wanting to keep their wealth and not work for the state...'

100 million people died because of that very same argument.

 

'stop being selfish and childish and let the state run your life.'

[Decyferon]

why not the states, is the point of my argument? if the UK has no jurisdiction over germany, as the federal government has no authority over the healthcare of the states, why do you say hold your position. its the same exact thing.

the UK has no right to tell germany what to do on the matter just like the federal government has no right to tell the states what to do on the matter.

 

if you favor a body taking over hte rights of individual states, you must also favor world government.

 

 

As I have stated before I don't believe in a world government, I do believe in a central government for a country rather than an outdated model of regional power. We have local authorities in the UK as well, that is all I see the individual states as.

[ILOTSMYBRAIN]

How is mine backwards.

 

I am for the rights of the individual. Which means you. You are in favor of the state having control over what you do and say.

 

You may say that's not the case, but clearly it is.

 

The Constitution is a very vital piece of paper, why do you think they are dismantling it?

 

The rest of the world suffers a lot. I don't know what you are talking about, I could mention a few regions of the world that would be A LOT better off if they had such a document, and it was upheld.

 

The fact that you can't see the significance of one of the most important documents ever written by men astounds me.

 

BTW: The whole jar thing wasn't to be taken seriously, it was a jab at your idea of helping society collectively.

 

You could easily set up charities, donate to public hospitals. Do many other things with your money on your own terms, but for some reason this isn't an option. You would rather have your money automatically taken from you by the state and then be distributed by the state as they see fit.

 

Yikes.

[Decyferon]

"I'm sorry but this whole issue of I shouldn't be forced to participate arguement just seems very selfish and childish to me."

 

ah yes. the selfish argument.

 

why arent you adopting babies that are dying in third world countries, giving your entire take home pay to feed the hungry and giving up your iphone so some poor person can have a doctors visit?

 

this argument is the very same argument used by all mass murders in the 20th century.

'why those pesky kulaks, talking about their pitiful rights, being selfish with their land and those childish dissidents who wont give into our collectivism!' or 'those childish jews, wanting to keep their wealth and not work for the state...'

100 million people died because of that very same argument.

 

'stop being selfish and childish and let the state run your life.'

 

You guys love to twist things, sometimes you are worse than politicians, you come up with these ludicrous statements about adopting third world children.

 

All I ever hear from you is me me me, rather than thinking about the bigger picture, that is why I call it selfish.

[Decyferon]

How is mine backwards.

 

I am for the rights of the individual. Which means you. You are in favor of the state having control over what you do and say.

 

You may say that's not the case, but clearly it is.

 

The Constitution is a very vital piece of paper, why do you think they are dismantling it?

 

The rest of the world suffers a lot. I don't know what you are talking about, I could mention a few regions of the world that would be A LOT better off if they had such a document, and it was upheld.

 

The fact that you can't see the significance of one of the most important documents ever written by men astounds me.

 

Becaus eyou have been raised to believe it is that important, you also have a very twisted view of how the rest of the world is, the government doesn't dictate what I can say or do, never has.

 

Some countries in this world are fucked up, a piece of paper is not going to make a damn bit of difference in those countries. They wouldn't even be able to begin upholding such a document.

[ILOTSMYBRAIN]

Hmm.

 

Selfish because it's about "me, me, me". Very interesting, because if the world operated how I wanted it, everyone would have the same rights, and would not be discriminated by the state.

 

That's pretty unselfish in my eyes.

 

In my world to be honest you would probably think I was some sort of anarchist. Basically total freedom for everyone. Damn, that's pretty selfish though.

[ILOTSMYBRAIN]

This "piece of paper" is law. Stop disrespecting it as just a piece of loose leaf paper.

 

Of course I said it would have to be upheld. Even if it wasn't upheld, you could hold people accountable after the fact for their actions.

 

The world isn't perfect, I keep trying to explain this to you.

 

You saying the government can't limit what you say or do is rather funny. Apparently you don't get out to political rallies that much, to say "ever" is also funny. Governments since the dawn of civilization have been doing this and continue to do it.

 

Explain my twisted view of how the world works.

 

I'm interested.

[angelofdeath]

You guys love to twist things, sometimes you are worse than politicians, you come up with these ludicrous statements about adopting third world children.

 

All I ever hear from you is me me me, rather than thinking about the bigger picture, that is why I call it selfish.

 

defending individual rights IS THE BIG PICTURE.

 

who is to say that i dont engage in charity and volunteer? just because i dont believe in forcing someone at gun point to engage in a charity doesnt mean i am against it. i am against throwing people in jail for using drugs, but i dont use them.

 

i guess, since i 'lied' about your position, i should now be in jail?

[Decyferon]

you didn't lie, you made an assumption of my position, this is a discussion board and of course we will never agree, I don't think you should be thrown in Jail for that.

 

ILOTS - I mean your view is twisted when you say the government dictates what I can say and do, I have never in my 31 years had the feeling that that has happened to me. Just because I live in a country that has socialised healthcare and welfare etc etc you seem to think that it is some totalitarian communist society like China when it is nothing like that.

 

To be honest this will just go round and round in circles, my opinion will not change and neither will yours, it can be debated til the end of time.

[russell jones]

People in countries with socialized medicine/insurance pay for less for their healthcare (including taxes) than people in America. So it would be very selfish indeed to want have healthcare for all.

[ILOTSMYBRAIN]

Could you explain why Health care here is so expensive? Because that would be interesting.

[angelofdeath]

you didn't lie, you made an assumption of my position, this is a discussion board and of course we will never agree, I don't think you should be thrown in Jail for that.

 

 

but if a corporation (merely a group of people) put out a documentary about hilary clinton that made the same 'assumption' they should go to jail?

[Decyferon]

You keep mentioning jail, I never did. All I said is that if it was libelous or slanderous then I disagreed with it. In libel cases the punishment is fines or paying damages.

 

Also I have been on more than enough political rallies he'll I was almost raised on them as a child, my parents were very politically active and I have been on more than I can possibly remember.

[angelofdeath]

so you just support criminals paying fines? rob a store, pay a fine? and if they dont pay the fine? then you can throw them in jail? or are you just acknowledging that a slander case is on the same criminal level as someone running a stop sign?

im really curious. you always talk about what you want government to do to/for citizens. but you never mention what would happen to the dissidents, non conformists, and people who resist what the government is doing to them.

[Decyferon]

When did I say that? You rob a store you go to jail. Some crimes aren't serious enough to warrant jailtime others are, lesser crimes, you get fines. I have been fined for a crime, I have been given cautions, the crimes weren't serious to warrant jail, I broke the law I live with it.

 

Yea sometimes if people are fined and they don't pay them they get a small amount of jailtime. Do I give it any thought, no because it is easy to pay a court fine a couple of quid a week.

 

I don't agree with all taxes I don't agree with the local authority taxes we pay but then I also do see what they go towards so to be honest I can see why they are there I would rather I don't pay them but I do. I don't see any problem with the income tax and national insurance tax I pay. They come out my wages before I get them, your employer payroll dept deals with all that.

 

Do I think jail time is worthy for tax evasion, not really I feel paying the money you owe with a fine on top to be adequate, if you then don't pay that then the law states you can go to jail. I pay my taxs so I don't see why other people shouldn't so I have no sympathy for their situation.

[angelofdeath]

so in the end... you admit that you favor throwing people in jail for libel or tax evasion. and if they resist being arrested... do you favor police officers shooting them if the resist enough?

[Decyferon]

Nope again putting words in my mouth, deadly force should only be used when being threatened with deadly force. If a criminal is waving a gun around and refuses arrest and is threatening people with the gun then I see no reason why they shouldn't be shot.

[angelofdeath]

ok.

so i'll elaborate.

you file a law suit against me for slander or libel.

i refuse to pay the fine i am sentenced.

the police come to get me. to arrest me. i defend myself when they try to take me to jail.

the police shoot me.

did i get what i deserve?

[Decyferon]

If when they came to arrest you and you start threatening them with a gun and there is no way for them to disarm you and arrest you then yes they can shoot you. You are resisting arrest with a deadly weapon and are threatening to shoot them.

 

In a court of law it was determined you commited libel and were ordered to pay a fine, you chose not to appeal the decision and also to not pay the fine.

 

Do I think it is good that you ended up dead then no i don't but it was your choice to resist arrest and threaten people with a deadly weapon.

[angelofdeath]

so in the end, you are for jailing people and/or death for libel and tax evasion.

 

you lied to me and said that you do not want anyone to go to jail or be killed for libel or tax evasion.

 

this is what it always means to support laws like you do.

you are essentially claiming the right to kill people for nonconformity

[Decyferon]

No I said I support fines, if you choose to disregard the punishment you were given that is different, you were made under the law to pay a fine you chose not to abide by the legal decision.

 

You then resisted arrest with a deadly weapon.

[angelofdeath]

and you just say...'oh well, should of paid your taxes.'

 

if a law is passed that says...'everyone must give up their wife so a government agent can have sex with her once a year' and if you resist this when the agents come and they shoot you, will you just shrug your shoulders and say...' oh well, i resisted with a deadly weapon. i deserved it.'

 

its no different than taxes. rape is an invasion of property rights. taxes are theft, invasion of property rights. it is an injustice. if you resist arrest for either case, you will be shot.

[Decyferon]

Dude where in the hell would you come up with a law like that. It would be rape it would also be an infringement of the wife's human rights, a law like that would be impossible. Taxes are not an o fringement of your human rights.

[Zig]

Americans really need to get off this high horse that the constitution is this great document that saves human nature because frankly the rest of the world does fine without it.

 

My arguements are not about supporting Obama, they are about common sense in the modern society and this unwavering support of the constitution is silly and that if anyone is critical of it then they are heathen scum/communist blah blah.

 

Americans definitely do need to get off their high horses, and we should be more humble to the rest of the world's views and opinions however your statement that the rest of the world does fine without it is wrong in my opinion. The rest of the world for the most part, especially since WW2 has done what they can to make their own governments operate closer to the standards of American decency, liberty, and freedom that all came about because of our Constitution and our Declaration of Independence. It has only been until recently that the world view of America has changed for the worse, and that is due to the fact that our Constitution is not being followed the by the very Government which upholds it.

 

As I have stated before I don't believe in a world government, I do believe in a central government for a country rather than an outdated model of regional power. We have local authorities in the UK as well, that is all I see the individual states as.

 

If you actually study the Constitution and the foundations of this nation you would understand why Central Government should not be established in a society that cherishes freedom and liberty. Your ignorance of these basic concepts reflects in your opinions and perspectives when you post.

 

Becaus eyou have been raised to believe it is that important, you also have a very twisted view of how the rest of the world is, the government doesn't dictate what I can say or do, never has.

 

Some countries in this world are fucked up, a piece of paper is not going to make a damn bit of difference in those countries. They wouldn't even be able to begin upholding such a document.

 

The Government definitely does and can dictate what you can or can't do, along with what you can or can't say, and even crossing the threshold into what you can or can't think. This isn't just our Government, this occurs all over the world. Look at what is happening in Australia with censorship, look at what has happened here with privacy, and security, and look throughout history at what has happened in the most severe of situations such as Hitler's Germany, Mao's China, or Stalin's Russia. Do you know what protects you, and quite possibly one of the only things that legally protects you, from Government abuses? That's right, it's that little "piece of paper" that you will be citing in court as your defense if you ever find yourself in such a situation where you actually have the opportunity to protect yourself... most don't.

 

It's not a twisted world view, it's a historical world view that Government oppresses free humanity, and our Constitution is a fundamental tool towards liberation.

 

As for the whole selfishness argument, because some of us don't want to be forced to pay new taxes for systems such as the proposed health care bill. This is a bit more complicated of an issue, when we start discussing things such as socialism, communism, etc. I've noticed many people in my school and my peers are definitely leaning more towards wanting to help people through socialism, because in essence the idea of socialism is an appealing one towards good natured people. I for one also have these same feelings that I would want someone who is sick and needs the assistance to be able to acquire it, why wouldn't I. However, when I research the history of our nation and I understand the concepts of freedom and liberty, I then understand the skepticism which comes from American citizens towards socialist policies. For the most part, these policies are funded and propagated by the very same entities that have caused a lot of other problems in our society and whom should not be trusted with the responsibilities nor the funds to operate such systems. Just because you are good natured, and you want to help people and are willing to take a cut of your paycheck out towards paying taxes for those whom are in need (Thank you very much, I am receiving an education in college due to taxes and I appreciate it.) doesn't mean those that are in power positions are as good natured as they claim to be, and are doing everything for benevolence and the good of humanity.

 

I further understand that intolerance of taxes is how this nation began, because we especially didn't want someone across the ocean making us pay more for services and goods we had a right to. Now of days we have organizations such as the U.N planning to impose taxes on American's and other industrial nations due to Global Warming that would further cripple our already damaged economy. We have oncoming health care taxes, and it was even announced recently that more back door taxes are going to hit the American middle class. We are growing Government larger and larger, allowing them to tax us more and more for literally every aspect of the lives we lead...

 

"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have ... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases." - Thomas Jefferson

 

When I weight the possibilities, personally I am more leaning towards reducing the size and bloat of government, putting more money into the hands of the working class and individual citizens of America, and granting us more liberty and freedom rather than growing Government and giving them the responsibilities of taking care of us.

[angelofdeath]

sure it is.

if i dont pay my taxes you just said it is ok for me to go to jail and if i resist that enough, i get shot.

 

theft is an invasion of rights. you are confusing 'private' theft with 'government theft.' government theft is ok by you, private theft is bad. to me private theft is bad as well as government theft. just because you think i should pay the government money to pay for your healthcare, so you pass a law and criminalize not paying taxes, doesnt mean it still isnt theft. it is coercive. it is slavery. when moses handed down the 10 commandments to the people they didnt say 'thou shalt not steal unless there is a majority vote in congress.' in another words, theft is theft, whether congress voted on it or not.

 

you already said that anyone has a right to elect people to enact whatever laws they want, infringing on rights or not. you already favor laws limiting speech, religion, what kids are taught, limiting self defense, what inanimate objects i can and cannot own, what i can do with my property, you want to elect people who pass laws that send armed tax collectors to my house to collect money from me. if i refuse to pay i will be shot. in fact i have yet to see of any case where you would allow citizens freedom to do what they want, government free.

[Decyferon]

Zig, Thank you for such a well thought out response. I don't really have any counter points to make but it is nice to see other people contributing. I do understand why so many Americans are distrustful of their government, I myself think the American goverment is one of the more shady governments in thevworld.

[Decyferon]

sure it is.

if i dont pay my taxes you just said it is ok for me to go to jail and if i resist that enough, i get shot.

 

theft is an invasion of rights. you are confusing 'private' theft with 'government theft.' government theft is ok by you, private theft is bad. to me private theft is bad as well as government theft. just because you think i should pay the government money to pay for your healthcare, so you pass a law and criminalize not paying taxes, doesnt mean it still isnt theft. it is coercive. it is slavery. when moses handed down the 10 commandments to the people they didnt say 'thou shalt not steal unless there is a majority vote in congress.' in another words, theft is theft, whether congress voted on it or not.

 

you already said that anyone has a right to elect people to enact whatever laws they want, infringing on rights or not. you already favor laws limiting speech, religion, what kids are taught, limiting self defense, what inanimate objects i can and cannot own, what i can do with my property, you want to elect people who pass laws that send armed tax collectors to my house to collect money from me. if i refuse to pay i will be shot. in fact i have yet to see of any case where you would allow citizens freedom to do what they want, government free.

 

My god you really aren't listening. You gave me a specific scenario which I answered you are now using that specific scenario to a wider situation. I said if you didn't pay the damages awarded to me under the legal system then yes there should be a consequence, if you decided to use a lethal weapon to resist arrest then the police would be within their right to use equal force.

 

To be honest if the politicians had any sense they would just Amend the constitution to make it more relevant to the tax situation. I don't ever gear you moan about your taxes funding defense but if it is for something that is actually going to benefit people then you have no interest.

[angelofdeath]

"I don't ever gear you moan about your taxes funding defense but if it is for something that is actually going to benefit people then you have no interest."

 

i tend to moan about ALL taxes. i generally dont differentiate.

 

you know im against iraq and that i consider the dept of defense the dept of offense... so i dont know what you are trying to put on me

[angelofdeath]

Zig, Thank you for such a well thought out response. I don't really have any counter points to make but it is nice to see other people contributing. I do understand why so many Americans are distrustful of their government, I myself think the American goverment is one of the more shady governments in thevworld.

 

props on zig's post.

 

but decy. cmon. you know full well i've been making the same overall argument to you forever and i have yet to hear you come out on the side of freedom yet. you started to criticize obama about the war in another thread awhile ago, but then went in to defending the status quo.

 

if you think the american government is the shadiest in the world, why do you support them regulating every single aspect of the lives of americans?

i just dont get it.

you make a post like this that says you are skeptical of government, then spend the rest of your time defending everything the government does.

 

perhaps we should talk about what you dont like about government and have a discussion about that.