ANOTHER ROUGH WEEK FOR AMERICAN LIBERALISM/SOCIALISM

[Zig]

dude, I have no intention of arguing or debating with someone who has already made up their minds. You didn't find anything I said in my post relating to anything you posted because my post wasn't directed or focused on you individually, it was a general statement towards those within this thread who are arguing in support of our President Barack H. Obama. If you really want me to sit here and post all of the unfulfilled promises and lies that came out of the Obama campaign you are out of luck, I'm not going to waste my time. To me it's obvious, and I already know how you would respond and how you feel about Obama so there is no point to that discussion.

[ILOTSMYBRAIN]

He can end the wars.

 

Simple and plain. He can also close the prison(s) where we kidnap and torture people illegally.

 

He is saying he is going to close Guantanamo, but it's still open. It is also not the only place where these atrocities are committed. So..I don't see how relevant it is if/when Guantanamo actually does close.

[lord_casek]

He can also repeal the Patriot Act, all the criminal PDD's, etc.

[christo-f]

dude, I have no intention of arguing or debating with someone who has already made up their minds. You didn't find anything I said in my post relating to anything you posted because my post wasn't directed or focused on you individually, it was a general statement towards those within this thread who are arguing in support of our President Barack H. Obama. If you really want me to sit here and post all of the unfulfilled promises and lies that came out of the Obama campaign you are out of luck, I'm not going to waste my time. To me it's obvious, and I already know how you would respond and how you feel about Obama so there is no point to that discussion.

 

WEll then you're a bit of a fucking idiot and not as bright as you're trying to make out here as I have said that I'm not trying to support him, I didn't vote for him, shit, I aint even from the US! I'm just arguing the structural realities of his post and the constraints that he faces, which mean a year is not enough to do what he promised. I don't give a fuck about Obama or any other Pres. because personality and party matter very little.

 

But good one coming in a to a discussion board and refusing to have a discussion!

[Soup]

There are some HUGE differences between Obama and Bush and if you can't tell the two apart you're living under a rock.

 

Lets break this down starting with the most obvious:

 

Bush comes from one of the wealthiest families in America and has been a mouthpiece for big oil. Whether or not you care/believe it, his family's wealth has also been linked to the Bin Ladens, the Holocaust, Skull and Bones etc. He took america when we were in surplus and sunk us to -8.5 trillion in 5 years, and -12 trillion by the end of his second term. When you think of the amount obama has used, also consider inflation and the growing interest on our debt.

 

Obama is BLACK with family ties to one of the poorest nations in the world. (For those 12ozers who arent americans and don't understand the significance of this let me put it another way: It would be like if australia's next president was.... BLACK! haha) His cabinet also has no ties to big oil and some of them have ties to equally poor communities around America. While their biggest issue is getting the republicans to stop filibustering everything, their major concern will always be for the near-extinct american working class. They've proven this by taking control of detroit and protecting the few remaining working class jobs in america.

 

Bush and his administration had almost no transparency to anything they did. We actually relied on the Media to tell us the truth about underground pipelines from Afghanistan to Saudi Arabia; Also about waterboarding, the truth about Guantanamo bay, etc. Lets put it this way, books that came out about the truth of the war in iraq won pulitzer prizes. Not only has Bush never admitted any mistakes but neither did his cabinet.

 

Obama has addressed the people clearly, concisely, expressed every single folly he's so-far made, has never lied, and has never once passed anything without the expressed agreement of the republican party--which explains why nothings really been passed-- Not only that but Obama publishes almost all the intelligence he and his cabinet bases their opinons on, including the incredibly outspoken and therefor controversial commander of the war in Afghanistan, General Stanley A McChrystal--who doesnt seem to ever hold his tongue about what he wants to have happen in afghanistan, and Obama obeys. Long gone are the days when the president decided to release a report or not, but Obama just lets him say whatever. Also the media coverage today is absolutely insane and made up entirely of color commentators who'll say anything for ratings. If anyone has a complaint about transparency, it's the media's fault for not reporting it.

 

Bush loved to give corporations our tax dollars, no strings attached. The end result was a lot of really really wealthy executives and not much else.

 

Obama recognizes the same incessant begging from corporations, but has also recognized that if corporations want our money, americans deserve a

in shareholdings. He's also making sure the chairmen CEOS responsible for fucking up the companies are held accountable and sacked. AND he's making sure noone else thinks this is free executive bonus money and is severely reducing all of their executive pay.

 

 

Like christo-f's said numerous times, personality doesn't really come into play that often when there's a global economic crisis and everything's in panic mode, but it's still critically important to know who your government is. Obama is a true man of the people. He's democratic, diplomatic, forward thinking on his energy plan, etc. Everything he's ever done has been predicable, ethical, and albeit not ideal, it's definitely wise and the best of every possible situation. Everyone might be giving him a hard time for this healthcare plan, but the reality is the republican senators recognize the need for one too.

 

Also for those who call Obama's administration socialist: socialism has been an integral part of our society for the last 150 years. From important labor unions, to the current gas and electric companies, to our fire departments, and our public education system; These are all socialist parts of our society. I mean they are full-blown socialism. Socialism is not a replacement of democracy; In fact it's helped to restore democracy to the non-ruling classes. It is a key part of making every capitalistic market in the world successful. Obama is not a fan of socialism and wants to use it as a short term fix to our corporations who subsequently are ran by children that beg for billions in bailout then throw concerts and pro golf tours. Socialism is that next step to government funding that actually has the government go in and audit the company to make sure there isnt corporate corruption.

[Soup]

For those not wanting to read a wall-o-text, basically I just dont understand any of the beefs you have with the obama administration and while there's an orgiastic amount of unfounded reporting about the lack of transparency in the government, it takes all of half an hour of googling to find all the answers you want.

 

This is the easiest time in american history to involve yourself in real politics. So this "i dont like politics" and the "there's no transparency" response are just excuses for being lazy.

 

 

 

 

oh and,

Looks kinda like he was making fun of you. AOD is pretty intelligent.

I reaaaaaaaaaaaally hope you're right. hahahahahaha

 

 

and christo-f haha it's cool man i appreciate everything you've contributed to this site since you've been here, but i highly recommend riding that mtb before the pollution gets even worse. or if you've still got that harley/shadow/whatever the fuck it was back in oz, blast down the motorway on that thing while you still can.

[angelofdeath]

Good show, and all that, but I cant believe Christo-F wrote all that. I mean I've been in crossfire for all of 2 days and I already know everything AngelofDeath writes is straight out of an acid frenzy. In a discussion about Van Jones he was trying to convince me and I quote

 

 

 

Also he had a huge theory about how water conservation was in fact a satanic government plot to enslave us all, and stuff. And that the reason nobody sells 5 gallon toilets is a government conspiracy.

 

 

there is no conspiracy about anything the government is doing. where do you get this from?

all the stuff i talked about is federal law. you dont seem to be able to wrap your head around this.

 

is it also a tin foil hat made up conspiracy that the executive branch can declare any citizen and enemy combatant, strip them of civil rights and throw them in a prison without habeus corpus rights?

conspiracy. the government only does warm cuddly things like save baby seals and send welfare money to the inner city poor.

[angelofdeath]

"There really is no difference to me, between those who supported Bush feverishly and those who now support Obama feverishly."

 

exactly.

[angelofdeath]

There are some HUGE differences between Obama and Bush and if you can't tell the two apart you're living under a rock.

 

 

 

Bush comes from one of the wealthiest families in America and has been a mouthpiece for big oil. Whether or not you care/believe it, his family's wealth has also been linked to the Bin Ladens, the Holocaust, Skull and Bones etc. He took america when we were in surplus and sunk us to -8.5 trillion in 5 years, and -12 trillion by the end of his second term. When you think of the amount obama has used, also consider inflation and the growing interest on our debt.

 

Obama is BLACK with family ties to one of the poorest nations in the world. (For those 12ozers who arent americans and don't understand the significance of this let me put it another way: It would be like if australia's next president was.... BLACK! haha) His cabinet also has no ties to big oil and some of them have ties to equally poor communities around America. While their biggest issue is getting the republicans to stop filibustering everything, their major concern will always be for the near-extinct american working class. They've proven this by taking control of detroit and protecting the few remaining working class jobs in america.

 

 

obama has ties to BIG LABOR. what is the difference? he basically handed GM over to the unions in an effort to repay them for putting him in office. obama didnt support bank bailouts? what planet are you from?

because you are class warfare monger you obviously place some huge difference in the fact that bush's family was richer than obama's. because obama has 'ties' to poor countries, this some how makes him morally superior when he is abusing the civil rights of people, torturing them, bombing countries, killing civilians, raising taxes and overall decreasing the liberty of 300 million americans? all this is justified because some ancestor of his is from a third world shit hole? you make it sound like obama raised himself up by the boot straps after living a life on the hard streets of chicago eating bread crumbs and sour milk.

 

i think a better question is 'what policies of bush DOESNT obama support?'

 

 

Bush and his administration had almost no transparency to anything they did. We actually relied on the Media to tell us the truth about underground pipelines from Afghanistan to Saudi Arabia; Also about waterboarding, the truth about Guantanamo bay, etc. Lets put it this way, books that came out about the truth of the war in iraq won pulitzer prizes. Not only has Bush never admitted any mistakes but neither did his cabinet.

 

Obama has addressed the people clearly, concisely, expressed every single folly he's so-far made, has never lied, and has never once passed anything without the expressed agreement of the republican party--which explains why nothings really been passed--

 

you mean to tell me that govt all of sudden has transparency?

obama is video taping the detainees of black holes and allowing americans to see the people rounded up and thrown in gulags?

this further reinforces my point. obama is continuing the war in iraq. business as usual. the same shit is still going on over there. gitmo is NOT closed. are CIA black spots shut down? he has increased the subjugation of 'stan and wants to invade pakistan. its no different than if a mexican with no government ties came to the US, blew up a building and then we decide to invade mexico and kill everyone in our path.

 

how has obama increased the natural liberties of the citizens of the US? has he repealed any laws? has he stopped using the patriot act, illegal wire taps, warrantless no knock searches, put the BATFE on a leash?

no. he hasnt.

 

but all of obama's continuation of the same policies of bush are justified because his family has ties to a shit hole and bush's has ties to slightly more money than obama. whoooooppddeeee do.

 

 

Bush loved to give corporations our tax dollars, no strings attached. The end result was a lot of really really wealthy executives and not much else.

 

Obama recognizes the same incessant begging from corporations, but has also recognized that if corporations want our money, americans deserve a

in shareholdings. He's also making sure the chairmen CEOS responsible for fucking up the companies are held accountable and sacked. AND he's making sure noone else thinks this is free executive bonus money and is severely reducing all of their executive pay.

 

oh yes. huge differences here. its not like bush gave corp's 800 million dollars and obama didnt?! right? has obama stopped all subsidies, monopoly privileges, handouts and protection of companies?

oh but, he is telling them to stop paying bonuses. oh, he is such a warrior of the down trodden.

 

how about not giving companies ANYTHING at all? this is the free market approach. if you cant pull your own weight, you fail. sorry.

*enter in your comments about how obama had to nationalize companies, and give billions to banks because well.... he had to. but he talks like a good marxist, so i'll support him!*

 

Also for those who call Obama's administration socialist: socialism has been an integral part of our society for the last 150 years. From important labor unions, to the current gas and electric companies, to our fire departments, and our public education system; These are all socialist parts of our society. I mean they are full-blown socialism. Socialism is not a replacement of democracy; In fact it's helped to restore democracy to the non-ruling classes. It is a key part of making every capitalistic market in the world successful. Obama is not a fan of socialism and wants to use it as a short term fix to our corporations who subsequently are ran by children that beg for billions in bailout then throw concerts and pro golf tours. Socialism is that next step to government funding that actually has the government go in and audit the company to make sure there isnt corporate corruption.

 

wow.

maybe i should just use a page out of your book and just say.. wow.

you are a idiot.

you know understand one lick about economics.

 

but i cant do that. i like to debate this stuff.

 

yes, all the stuff you mentioned is socialist and NEEDS to be abolished.

socialism that operates on the tenants of 'from each according to ability to each according to his need' is operated at the barrel of a gun.

 

but let me just ask, are you a voluntary socialist or a coercive socialist? i havent run into one voluntary socialist yet. so i'll assume you are a coercive one.

 

if one refuses to partake in the socialist system set up by our supreme dictators (from the masses, mind you) do you favor putting these people in jail? if someone refuses to partake in a national ID scheme, welfare scheme, social security scheme, or national healthcare scheme, as in not paying into the system and no using the system, do you favor throwing these people in jail or otherwise forcing them to?

if not, can you please go to your man in the white house. since he is a man of the people, im sure you can just stroll right in and sit down with him. you can talk about growing up poor and not having any money and eating ketchup sandwiches for dinner. but after all that, can you tell him to just leave the americans alone that dont want to take part in any of the schemes him and his goons come up with? since he is the commander of the executive branch, you can just have him stop enforcing all the laws that throw people in jail for not being a part of the system.

that is all i ask.

 

if you do that, all this arguing about stupid things like corporate salary caps and toilet tanks will be moot. because none of it will affect anyone in any bad way. people will all be allowed to live how they want.

 

but you wont let that happen will you? you cant let these evil capitalists and middle class people get away with living their lives how they want will you? heaven forbid if the middle class is allowed to stop paying social security taxes! my goodness, everyone will die!

[angelofdeath]

and christo-f haha it's cool man i appreciate everything you've contributed to this site since you've been here, but i highly recommend riding that mtb before the pollution gets even worse. or if you've still got that harley/shadow/whatever the fuck it was back in oz, blast down the motorway on that thing while you still can.

 

i wonder if you took note of the things christo has had to say about foreign policy and war.

do you support war and intervention?

i would hope atleast as a good obamunist that you would atleast pay lip service to being anti war

or maybe not. since the obamunists are hawkish these days, his followers seem to be following along

[Soup]

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA you want to abolish gas and electric companies, fire departments and public schools because they're Socialist? HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA

 

Look dude just because i find what you write hilarious doesnt mean i want you to go off on insane tangents every time i post something. I really dont have time for this, and the fact that you're asking questions which could be answered with 30 minutes on google leads me to believe you dont actually want them answered. Maybe if you could write your conspiracy theories in a way that wasnt so abrasive and serious then I could laugh WITH you and not AT you.

 

Or if you actually started writing more constructively and less "you're so stupid you dont see your whole civilization is a treacherous lieeee" and maybe some sources and facts then I might stop laughing all together-- I've likely already heard all this shit before and I dont even recognize what you're saying because it's so poorly written (because you yourself dont even understand what you're saying)--hell, anything's possible.

[angelofdeath]

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA you want to abolish gas and electric companies, fire departments and public schools because they're Socialist? HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA

 

Look dude just because i find what you write hilarious doesnt mean i want you to go off on insane tangents every time i post something. I really dont have time for this, and the fact that you're asking questions which could be answered with 30 minutes on google leads me to believe you dont actually want them answered. Maybe if you could write your conspiracy theories in a way that wasnt so abrasive and serious then I could laugh WITH you and not AT you.

 

Or if you actually started writing more constructively and less "you're so stupid you dont see your whole civilization is a treacherous lieeee" and maybe some sources and facts then I might stop laughing all together-- I've likely already heard all this shit before and I dont even recognize what you're saying because it's so poorly written (because you yourself dont even understand what you're saying)--hell, anything's possible.

 

i fail to see that a libertarian view point is a 'conspiracy theory.' there is no 'theory' about anything im saying.

 

personally, local fire departments and locally controlled public schools are the least of my worries right now. i'd much rather see the federal government remove its presence from over seas and limit its self on the domestic front to the confines of the constitution. once this is done, we can argue the merits and inefficiencies of socialized fire departments and public schools. i'd be happy with the feds getting out of public schools right now.

 

i find it hilarious that you think all the stuff i am saying is either a lie, a 'conspiracy theory' or 'poorly written.'

the only thing you are bringing to the conversation is not a rebuttal of my points, but a complete dismissal because you cannot form a complete coherent argument against them. you want to talk about how everything im saying must have citations. to me this proves to me that you know very little as to what is going on in the country. do you need me to buy a complete library of the US code and put down the exact statute or law that describes the tyrannical nature of the patriot act and the miitary commissions act of 2006? its a conspiracy theory that the president of the united states can call anyone an enemy combatant and put them in jail without even charging them and hold them essentially forever? i thought you obamanoids were supposed to agree with constitutionalists on this issue? or you literally have no idea what im talking about?

 

look, you said in the beginning you cant even believe you are posting here.

everyone that posts in here keeps everything civil and we all have good discussions even if we dont agree. this is the way its been for the past couple years in here. if you want to run around calling people idiots and conspiracy nuts and not debate that is cool. but there is no need to be calling names if you dont want to debate anything and responding with ' hahahahahaahahaha' because you are the morally superior much more highly educated resident communist on the board. i always giggle when marxists or socialists who are all about egalitarianism and hearing all view points, equality, ya ya ya ya, but when they hear a view point that is opposite of theres, they act like children.

[Zig]

WEll then you're a bit of a fucking idiot and not as bright as you're trying to make out here as I have said that I'm not trying to support him, I didn't vote for him, shit, I aint even from the US! I'm just arguing the structural realities of his post and the constraints that he faces, which mean a year is not enough to do what he promised. I don't give a fuck about Obama or any other Pres. because personality and party matter very little.

 

But good one coming in a to a discussion board and refusing to have a discussion!

 

If you're going to call me a fucking idiot then I definitely don't want to have a discussion with you lol, and I'm not avoiding discussion on this forum what I'm avoiding is arguing with you because I can already tell your ignorant and full of yourself. I'm not trying to come off as bright either, I know I'm not the sharpest tool in the box, I don't pretend to be intelligent or know more than I do. If I come off as acting bright to you well then those are just qualities you saw in my only two posts in this thread, so maybe something I said sounded intelligent to your subliminal.

 

There are some HUGE differences between Obama and Bush and if you can't tell the two apart you're living under a rock.

 

Like christo-f's said numerous times, personality doesn't really come into play that often when there's a global economic crisis and everything's in panic mode, but it's still critically important to know who your government is. Obama is a true man of the people. He's democratic, diplomatic, forward thinking on his energy plan, etc. Everything he's ever done has been predicable, ethical, and albeit not ideal, it's definitely wise and the best of every possible situation. Everyone might be giving him a hard time for this healthcare plan, but the reality is the republican senators recognize the need for one too.

 

Also for those who call Obama's administration socialist: socialism has been an integral part of our society for the last 150 years. From important labor unions, to the current gas and electric companies, to our fire departments, and our public education system; These are all socialist parts of our society. I mean they are full-blown socialism. Socialism is not a replacement of democracy; In fact it's helped to restore democracy to the non-ruling classes. It is a key part of making every capitalistic market in the world successful. Obama is not a fan of socialism and wants to use it as a short term fix to our corporations who subsequently are ran by children that beg for billions in bailout then throw concerts and pro golf tours. Socialism is that next step to government funding that actually has the government go in and audit the company to make sure there isnt corporate corruption.

 

http://www.villagevoice.com/2010-01-12/columns/george-w-obama/

 

You know even the Village Voice, one of the most left-leaning publications in New York City, and most of the so called left in this country are beginning to realize that Obama is a third term of Bush and not who he claimed to be during his campaign, so it's surprising to me that you are actually still saying he is a "true man of the people". What are you basing that off of exactly? Your just calling him a bunch of benevolent names and raising him up as some sort of Martin Luther King Jr. when he hasn't done anything for the people this entire year he has been in office. He bailed out his bankster buddies on Wall St., gave the Fed more power over our economy, put people like Geithner and other Wall St. cronies right into his cabinet, and the Health Care is a whole other issue that I don't even feel like getting into here but it is definitely not some benevolent act for the people.

 

And hey chris-o for the sake of arguement since you seem to want one so badly, if you're not even American and you don't give a fuck about Obama or any other Pres. then it really isn't your place to be saying anything about our system of government or our domestic issues, or at least if your going to chime in about them don't try and come off like some sort of privelaged know it all. I live here in NYC in the poor neighborhoods with the people who are getting the short end of the stick because we don't have jobs while our Government consistently sends my friends to war, bails themselves out, gives themselves more power, polices us with a heavier hand each day, etc. So if you're going to call me an idiot, honestly dude go fuck yourself and do some more government intelligence research or whatever it is you do for a living.

[once upon a crime]

I aint even from the US!

 

then dont call someone from the u.s. an idiot for not liking obama, the truth of the matter is obama's policies (or lack of) are disliked by a very huge portion of america. At least with bush it took the majority of the country 8 years to realize how much they disliked his policies.. this lying corrupt shady fuck in office now only took a year for people to realize.

 

 

after the crushing blow to his party again maybe now he'll realize that jobs are much more important than healthcare, he should of listened to what the voters in virginia and new jersey were trying to tell him back in november instead of being an arrogant piece of shit. He probably wouldnt be in predicament he's in today.

[once upon a crime]

He put all his eggs in one basket (healthcare) during his 1st year and at the one year mark to the day it collapsed leaving a man confused and disoriented and the public wondering what the fuck is this idiot doing.

[Soup]

i fail to see that a libertarian view point is a 'conspiracy theory.' there is no 'theory' about anything im saying.

 

Hahahaha I appreciate that you didnt try to tell me what you're saying is fact and instead said "there is no theory about anything im saying." Well played sir. Well played.

 

personally, local fire departments and locally controlled public schools are the least of my worries right now. i'd much rather see the federal government remove its presence from over seas and limit its self on the domestic front to the confines of the constitution. once this is done, we can argue the merits and inefficiencies of socialized fire departments and public schools. i'd be happy with the feds getting out of public schools right now.

 

Really? Our socialist Fire departments are the least of your worries? That's crazy, MINE TOO!! As well as every other American. Gee you're so smart I want what you're smoking. Seriously, how old are you? Do you have private health insurance, or do your parents pay for yours? Did you go to college at a public university, or did you never even go to college? And where do you live that has private fire departments which are more efficient than the public ones? In most places the private fire departments went bankrupt because they couldnt compete with the public ones. This is, after all a capitalistic society and anyone who wants private healthcare, private schools, or a private fire department can have one. They arent ILLEGAL like you seem to think the federal government is making everything-- and the reality is our public universities are some of the top ranked universities in the world. They're also incredibly cheaper.

 

Oh and the village voice has been an incredible news source since 2008.

[christo-f]

then dont call someone from the u.s. an idiot for not liking obama,

 

Oh dude...

 

Did I call him an idiot for not liking Obama or because he was saying I did when almost all of my posts have been trying to illustrate that Obama is irrelevant?

 

AOD and I may disagree on a lot of things but at least we actually read what each other writes before we comment.

 

Hard to have a meaningful discussion with you guys when you ignore what is being said to you.

[christo-f]

 

And hey chris-o for the sake of arguement since you seem to want one so badly, if you're not even American and you don't give a fuck about Obama or any other Pres. then it really isn't your place to be saying anything about our system of government or our domestic issues, or at least if your going to chime in about them don't try and come off like some sort of privelaged know it all. I live here in NYC in the poor neighborhoods with the people who are getting the short end of the stick because we don't have jobs while our Government consistently sends my friends to war, bails themselves out, gives themselves more power, polices us with a heavier hand each day, etc. So if you're going to call me an idiot, honestly dude go fuck yourself and do some more government intelligence research or whatever it is you do for a living.

 

Oh dude, you haven't even read what I said, have you? Here, let me help:

 

 

However, I know little about domestic US policy and economics so I won't comment anymore on that.

 

Everything I've said relates to foreign policy, not domestic. And as the US is heavily involved throughout much of the world I feel people other than those from the US are allowed to have opinions on the US President.

 

But you go ahead and continue ignoring what I actually say with your self-righteous "I'm poor so I know what's going on" bullshit...

[angelofdeath]

Hahahaha I appreciate that you didnt try to tell me what you're saying is fact and instead said "there is no theory about anything im saying." Well played sir. Well played.

 

i guess i should of clarified. every thing i have said is fact not theory.

 

Seriously, how old are you? Do you have private health insurance, or do your parents pay for yours? Did you go to college at a public university, or did you never even go to college? And where do you live that has private fire departments which are more efficient than the public ones? In most places the private fire departments went bankrupt because they couldnt compete with the public ones. This is, after all a capitalistic society and anyone who wants private healthcare, private schools, or a private fire department can have one. They arent ILLEGAL like you seem to think the federal government is making everything.

 

i'd prefer not to get into how old i am, where i live or my dick size, but suffice it to say i've been working full time for 10 years, i own 5 vehicles, i have over 50K in tools and equipment, all paid for by myself. i dont live with my parents, i dont have a degree and paid for what little college i went to by myself. college is nothing more either rich parents paying for or the government paying for 4 years of partying and goofing off and a socialist indoctrination in urban studies, queer studies and other forms of marxist studies. i know people who graduated cum laude and cant even spell 'permission'

 

my father in law is employed by a city fire department. he gets paid close to 100K a year to sit around all day all night. he goes in on holidays to make triple over time. members of my family live where there is no fire department. or rather the fire department is so far away that it doesnt even matter. they have a system on their property to extinguish any blaze that happens on their property.

 

we do not live in a capitalist society. you apparently cannot comprehend a word i have posted

we have had mixed economy for well over 100 years.

do you know how the government gets its money?

sit down now little soup, and i'll give you a lesson in basic government finance.

governments do not create wealth. they can only borrow to gain wealth, inflate to gain wealth and tax to gain wealth. taxation is theft. what happens if i dont pay taxes? i go to jail. if i resist arrest with force, i will be killed. sure, i can send my kids to private school and hire a private fire agency to protect my property. but you dont exempt me from paying for YOUR services. why? why will you let me be exempt from paying for your services? if i dont pay, you will send your armed thugs to beat me into submission to sieze my money to pay for your wants. you cannot deduce that i gain from this transaction because i was forced to do it. its like saying....'that woman is better off because she got raped. most definitely.'

 

forcing people to pay for others services, goods or items is not freedom. this is socialism. why dont you try something. why dont you get a gun. go to your neighbors and knock on their door. ask them to give you money for your kids schooling, for your police and fire protection, for your water, for your electric, your health insurance, your roads, and whatever else you want other people to pay for. see how well this goes over. then if they refuse, you have to put your gun to their head to make them pay. is this morally just? why do you feel the need to use force to finance your pet projects?

 

private schooling isnt illegal. but why in the hell are you making me pay for your kids public schooling, if i send my kids to a private school? why do you want me imprisoned if i refuse to pay for your kids schooling? if i refuse to pay for your parents social security?

 

as i stated before, its nice to sit around and think about all the things you want. but its another to have to be the one cracking some dissident in the head with your rifle butt to force them to be part of your socialist schemes.

 

why dont all your smart lefties who want socialized schools, just simply.... pay for it your self? why dont you set up a voluntary system to socialize schooling? put your money where your mouth is.

 

the free market allows all of this. but the socialized system we have where we jail non payers into the system is not morally sound. why do you feel the need to FORCE someone to buy a service they might not want? if walmart was going around throwing people in jail because they dont shop at their store, we would be pissed. but all you lefties and righties get together, take a vote, go to some state capital or to DC and just think of things you want to enact on the entire populace by seizing their wealth to finance it. and if they dont pay, you shoot them.

what sort of system is this?

[lord_casek]

Oh dude, you haven't even read what I said, have you? Here, let me help:

 

 

 

 

Everything I've said relates to foreign policy, not domestic. And as the US is heavily involved throughout much of the world I feel people other than those from the US are allowed to have opinions on the US President.

 

But you go ahead and continue ignoring what I actually say with your self-righteous "I'm poor so I know what's going on" bullshit...

 

 

Please tell him what you do for a living and what kind of business it is.

I was waiting for you to bust his balls with that.

[Soup]

i guess i should of clarified. every thing i have said is fact not theory.

You do understand the difference between fact, theory, and bullshit is dont you? Facts are proven, theory's are based on proof, and bullshit is what you're writing because you havent shown proof or prooven anything. POST LINKS. POST SOURCES. POST SOMETHING, ANYTHING. THE ONLY THING YOUVE POSTED IS A WILDLY SUBJECTIVE EDITORIAL WRITTEN IN A HALF-RATE TABLOID THAT HAD ME ASKING "wait, what are HIS sources?"

 

 

 

i'd prefer not to get into how old i am, where i live or my dick size, but suffice it to say i've been working full time for 10 years, i own 5 vehicles, i have over 50K in tools and equipment, all paid for by myself. i dont live with my parents, i dont have a degree and paid for what little college i went to by myself. college is nothing more either rich parents paying for or the government paying for 4 years of partying and goofing off and a socialist indoctrination in urban studies, queer studies and other forms of marxist studies. i know people who graduated cum laude and cant even spell 'permission'

That's funny. I go to college, pay for it myself, and don't sound NEARLY as victimized as you do. How about you take credit for failing out of college instead of blaming everybody else. College doesnt make you smart, it makes smart people successful instead of with 5 broken ass vehicles and more money spent in tools and repairing them than their combined worth. Jesus christ dude 50k in tools... do you make your own bodypanels? I'm balling with a $80 set of craftsman tools, and even with that i can fix everything on my car and motorcycle, which leads me to believe either you're lying, or youre retarded.

 

 

my father in law is employed by a city fire department. he gets paid close to 100K a year to sit around all day all night. he goes in on holidays to make triple over time. members of my family live where there is no fire department. or rather the fire department is so far away that it doesnt even matter. they have a system on their property to extinguish any blaze that happens on their property.

Man you make everybody in your family into a fucking victim. What a waste of white skin. If your family wanted all the comforts of civilization they'd move to a fucking city.

 

 

sit down now little soup, and i'll give you a lesson in basic government finance.

Tryna get sexy with me. alright then 'daddy' tell me about the gubmint.

governments do not create wealth. they can only borrow to gain wealth, inflate to gain wealth and tax to gain wealth. taxation is theft. what happens if i dont pay taxes? i go to jail. if i resist arrest with force, i will be killed.

Im pretty sure if a nerd like you shows any display of "force" you're gonna get stomped out.

 

sure, i can send my kids to private school and hire a private fire agency to protect my property. but you dont exempt me from paying for YOUR services. why? why will you let me be exempt from paying for your services? if i dont pay, you will send your armed thugs to beat me into submission to sieze my money to pay for your wants. you cannot deduce that i gain from this transaction because i was forced to do it. its like saying....'that woman is better off because she got raped. most definitely.'

Gee i dont think I ever heard anyone say "I could afford to go to YALE if it weren't for all these damn TAXES."

 

forcing people to pay for others services, goods or items is not freedom. this is socialism. why dont you try something. why dont you get a gun. go to your neighbors and knock on their door. ask them to give you money for your kids schooling, for your police and fire protection, for your water, for your electric, your health insurance, your roads, and whatever else you want other people to pay for. see how well this goes over.

Why? They already do. And it works out for the best. School is important not only for kids but for the community. Lowering crime, drug use, the number of people on wellfare, property value etc. With everything you've ever said you seem to be anti-government, anti-community, pretty much anti-everything. And that's cool. If you're so idealistic that you cant exist in society, then dont. I got friends that live off the grid, backpack through south america etc. Its not a big deal, but thinking you can reform society to a point where the government has no say in anything is a wrong. Places where this exists are called "FAILED STATES." and are ran by drug cartels, warlords, terrorists, religious militant zealots. So while you're complaining about taking strong medicine and worried about being hit with the butt of a gun (which will never happen because you're white) there are other people worried about having their ears ripped off for not giving 75% of their wages to Taliban.

 

 

 

private schooling isnt illegal. but why in the hell are you making me pay for your kids public schooling, if i send my kids to a private school? why do you want me imprisoned if i refuse to pay for your kids schooling? if i refuse to pay for your parents social security?

Because when rich people dont give back to the community they run away with the country's money and the economy looks how it looks today. Nobody who is in private education is at all worried about paying their taxes.

 

as i stated before, its nice to sit around and think about all the things you want. but its another to have to be the one cracking some dissident in the head with your rifle butt to force them to be part of your socialist schemes.

If I hear you use this analogy one more time I'M going to be cracking you in the head with the butt of a rifle. People vote all the time whether they want to raise or lower taxes for school, veterans, roads that some people may not use etc. It's a democracy. If you think your logic is so sound, bring it up within your own community.

 

why dont all your smart lefties who want socialized schools, just simply.... pay for it your self? why dont you set up a voluntary system to socialize schooling? put your money where your mouth is.

What exactly is your beef with the educational system in america? Explain why you hate it so much. Where did it steer you wrong? How is it not everything you hoped it would be? Too expensive? Private school is more expensive. Classes are too crowded? That's a lack of funding, and the only way private schools are any more economically bulletproof is if their students are too. Really, explain to me what you think follies of american public education and how they're inherent in a system that needs to be abolished.

 

the free market allows all of this. but the socialized system we have where we jail non payers into the system is not morally sound. why do you feel the need to FORCE someone to buy a service they might not want? if walmart was going around throwing people in jail because they dont shop at their store, we would be pissed. but all you lefties and righties get together, take a vote, go to some state capital or to DC and just think of things you want to enact on the entire populace by seizing their wealth to finance it. and if they dont pay, you shoot them.

what sort of system is this?

How many people do you know get jailed because they cant pay their taxes? If what you say is true then everyone who failed to pay their home mortgages would be in jail. That's why this whole argument about the government litigiously exacting punishment on all those who dont pay taxes is bogus.

[angelofdeath]

You do understand the difference between fact, theory, and bullshit is dont you? Facts are proven, theory's are based on proof, and bullshit is what you're writing because you havent shown proof or prooven anything. POST LINKS. POST SOURCES. POST SOMETHING, ANYTHING. THE ONLY THING YOUVE POSTED IS A WILDLY SUBJECTIVE EDITORIAL WRITTEN IN A HALF-RATE TABLOID THAT HAD ME ASKING "wait, what are HIS sources?"

 

what exactly are you denying? are you denying the patriot act, military commissions act and laws forbidding the new sale of toilets over 1.6 gallons exists?

 

That's funny. I go to college, pay for it myself, and don't sound NEARLY as victimized as you do. How about you take credit for failing out of college instead of blaming everybody else. College doesnt make you smart, it makes smart people successful instead of with 5 broken ass vehicles and more money spent in tools and repairing them than their combined worth.

 

who is victimized?

i didnt 'fall' out of college, i started working more than 50 hours a week to build a family business.

broke ass vehicles? hmm. whatever dude. just because im an ase master tech doesnt mean i have 5 broke ass vehicles. even if i did have '5 broke ass vehicles' i'd rather have this than have 1 'banging ass ride son!' that is a product of the free market that my beliefs totally contradict me having.

 

 

Man you make everybody in your family into a fucking victim. What a waste of white skin. If your family wanted all the comforts of civilization they'd move to a fucking city.

 

victim-crat nonsense again? hmmmm.

who ever said they didnt like it where they live? the point of me telling you that was that they dont need a socialized fire system. dont want one. they take care of their business themselves. i know this is hard to understand, but some people still handle their own business.

 

Im pretty sure if a nerd like you shows any display of "force" you're gonna get stomped out.

 

i've never heard actual threats in crossfire. wow. will you be the one to 'stomp me out' cupcake?

 

 

Because when rich people dont give back to the community they run away with the country's money and the economy looks how it looks today. Nobody who is in private education is at all worried about paying their taxes.

 

so if you decide someone is 'rich' you can do what you want to them? their rights dont matter? its ok to rob them? are you trying to say that working class people dont send kids to private school, only the 'rich' do?

you are eluding to 'greed' causing the economic collapse, instead of the real cause, the federal reserve and the federal regulatory apparatus.

 

heaven forbid you allow those evil rich capitalists to actually keep their own property! we cant let that happen, they will 'run away with the country!'

they dont need to 'runaway with the country' all we have to do is elect obama and have him bail out all his banker buddies! hoooray for the proletariat! down with the capitalists!

 

If I hear you use this analogy one more time I'M going to be cracking you in the head with the butt of a rifle. People vote all the time whether they want to raise or lower taxes for school, veterans, roads that some people may not use etc. It's a democracy. If you think your logic is so sound, bring it up within your own community.

 

sure my logic is sound. since you cant debate it, you want to 'crack me in the head with a rifle'

democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on whats for dinner.

 

so if a democracy voted that they wanted to all rape you up your ass, you would just bend over and take it? i wouldnt be surprised.

 

democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on whats for dinner, but liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.

 

What exactly is your beef with the educational system in america? Explain why you hate it so much. Where did it steer you wrong? How is it not everything you hoped it would be? Too expensive? Private school is more expensive. Classes are too crowded? That's a lack of funding, and the only way private schools are any more economically bulletproof is if their students are too. Really, explain to me what you think follies of american public education and how they're inherent in a system that needs to be abolished.

 

do you really want to get into this?

 

#1 the public education system is financed through coercion. you want people jailed if they 1. dont send their kids to school 2. refuse to pay taxes to fund school. i support only voluntary interactions between consenting adults. consenting capitalists acts if you will. i dont support throwing people in jail or shooting them if they dont want to engage in a transaction.

 

#2 public schools dont educate they indoctrinate. they dont teach american history, they teach propaganda. public schools teach allegiance to the state by unionized government employees. any possible slant to any thing that is taught? and to make it worse... refer to #1. if you dont send your kids to school you go to jail. and you have to pay for something you dont believe in.

 

3. federal control of education is unconstitutional. the dept of education shouldnt exist if you follow the constitution. if localities still controlled education and the community decided what to teach in school, most of this stuff would not need to be brought up.

 

4. public schooling has dumbed america down. see john taylor gatto. with more money being spent on kids than ever before, we are raising the dumbest kids yet.

 

5. public school is economically inefficient. the cost on average it takes to educate 1 kid is twice as much in public school than in private school and you get a fraction of the education.

 

6. i'd love to have a real discussion about this but you'll go into some wine fest about how im an idiotic, a lunatic, a fringe conspiracy nut and how you want to beat me up and crack me in the dome peice with a rifle butt that you probably want banned.

 

 

How many people do you know get jailed because they cant pay their taxes? If what you say is true then everyone who failed to pay their home mortgages would be in jail. That's why this whole argument about the government litigiously exacting punishment on all those who dont pay taxes is bogus.

 

irwin schiff. google him.

he refuses to pay taxes. he has been in and out of jail for years. he is currently serving time. ed brown. he is in jail for failure to pay income tax. and sadly, the court wouldnt even produce the law compelling him to pay income tax. they just said he has to pay. there is a whole gaggle of tax protesters who have been or are imprisoned.

 

most people give into paying income tax if the IRS comes after them. would you rather pay your taxes or what you rather go to jail?

 

taxes and mortgages are two totally different things. do you understand this? taxes are things the government makes you pay. a mortgage is something you voluntarily engage in. you contract with the mortgage company, you borrow money, and if you dont pay it they take your house. its pretty simple. do you not understand any of this?

 

do you seriously believe that there is no penalty for non payment of income taxes? and you go to college? hahaha... i rest my case.

[lord_casek]

Haha, AOD is gonna lay down some knowledge.

 

As for him getting stomped, I saw a pic of AOD with his 50 cal

and he's not a little guy at all.

[Soup]

I had your whole statement broken down for you to read my rebuttle, but in trying to proof read it all my eyes died. These walls of text are ruining my vision so let me just say this:

 

Nothing you're writing is anything i havent heard before. In fact, I think you could be doing a whole lot better than you are and I've been incited to write your side of the debate. Reality is tho any reason you can name to abolish these institutions aren't things that would go away with private companies. In fact it would be worse because they would doing this shit for a profit.

 

1. Gas and electric companies around the country are using 50 year old powerlines. This causes:

• 25% loss of energy in conversion
  
• Higher power bill
  
• Power companys have absolutely no idea when and where there are blackouts
  
• Companies lose their efficiency due to blackouts

2. The californian public school system had to make enormous cutbacks and fired 1/3 of their teachers, but it wasnt because they lacked the funding. It was because all that funding was tied up in an ancient contract with the textbook publishers to replace their books for identical editions every 5 years.

 

These are the real issues. The problem with the argument "It's unfair to force people into private schools so we should abolish the public option" can be made both ways;"It's unfair to abolish the public option and force us into private schools."

 

And your argument that "Public schools unconstitutionally indoctrinate kids" Well, private schools do the same thing. You can argue that "Well at least the parents chose what school they wanted their kids in." Preeety sure they did the exact same before putting them in public. Like you said private schools aren't that much more expensive. And many of them aren't.

 

Then your statement about the federal government controlling the content of public education. That's not even true. Curriculum is decided on a state level. Some states teach evolution. Some dont.

 

Then your statement about how public schools are dumbing kids down. My 7th grade brother is learning college algebra and speaks French. Go figure.

 

Basically everything else you say is cause for me to laugh. All your namecalling and trying to make yourself into an opressed white man in the greatest country by default is fucking retarded. I'd still be laughing if your wall of text didnt kill me eyes. With that I'm done for a minute.

[lord_casek]

 

Then your statement about how public schools are dumbing kids down. My 7th grade brother is learning college algebra and speaks French. Go figure.

 

A WHISTLEBLOWER'S ACCOUNT

 

Charlotte Thomson Iserbyt, former Senior Policy Advisor in the U.S. Department of Education, blew the whistle in the `80s on government activities withheld from the public. Her inside knowledge will help you protect your children from controversial methods and programs. In this book you will discover:

• 
  

-how good teachers across America have been forced to use controversial, non-academic me

• 
  

-how "school choice" is being used to further dangerous reform goals, and how home schooling and private education are especially vulnerable.

• 
  

-how workforce training (school-to-work) is an essential part of an overall plan for a global economy, and how this plan will shortcircuit your child's future career plans and opportunities.

• 
  

-how the international, national, regional, state and local agendas for education reform are all interconnected and have been for decades.

A CHRONOLOGICAL PAPER TRAIL

 

the deliberate dumbing down of america is a chronological history of the past 100+ years of education reform. Each chapter takes a period of history and recounts the significant events, including important geopolitical and societal contextual information. Citations from government plans, policy documents, and key writings by leading reformers record the rise of the modern education reform movement. Americans of all ages will welcome this riveting expose of what really happened to what was once the finest education system in the world.

 

Readers will appreciate the user-friendliness of this chronological history designed for the average reader not just the academician. This book will be used by citizens at public hearings, board meetings, or for easy presentation to elected officials.

 

Publication of the deliberate dumbing down of america is certain to add fuel to the fire in this nation's phonics wars. Iserbyt provides documentation that Direct Instruction, the latest education reform fad in the classroom, is being institutionalized under the guise of "traditional" phonics thanks to the passage of the unconstitutional Reading Excellence Act of 1998.

 

 

http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/MomsPDFs/DDDoA.sml.pdf

[Soup]

The author posits that, since at least 1880, US education has been developed with the goal of producing an army of worker-bots, and that to do this, education has been engineered to destroy the cultural matrix that produced the author's ideal --- the rugged individualist, the "God-fearing, educated man of the early twentieth century."

 

The author overlooks the fact that in the early 20th century, education was mostly confined to white males of the middle and upper economic strata. She also assumes that fear of God was more prevalent then than now, which seems ridiculous in these times of crusading politicians and burgeoning mega-churches.

 

The book is a chronology, comprising excerpts from the published works and speeches of noted educators, social theorists, psychologists, sociologists, and other "experts," which she claims prove the existence of a movement to subvert traditional American values. This plot, she believes, was rooted in the desire of American industrialists Rockefeller, Ford, Carnegie, et al., to create a pliable workforce out of unbending Americans in response to the global convergence of business, politics and culture which they envisioned.

 

A basic fallacy of the book, I believe, lies in ascribing to classroom teachers vast powers to mold personality, alter values, and channel behavior.

 

The underlying problem is this: The author sees the trees and descries an orchard producing poisonous fruit. But the orderly planting she perceives to be the work of diabolical Designers is most likely only a tangled forest grown out of the chaotic strivings of humans struggling in utter darkness to improve their world.

 

That said, if you overlook the conspiracy theorizing, "Dumbing Down" offers an interesting overview of the development of modern educational theory.

[lord_casek]

The author posits that, since at least 1880, US education has been developed with the goal of producing an army of worker-bots, and that to do this, education has been engineered to destroy the cultural matrix that produced the author's ideal --- the rugged individualist, the "God-fearing, educated man of the early twentieth century."

 

The author overlooks the fact that in the early 20th century, education was mostly confined to white males of the middle and upper economic strata. She also assumes that fear of God was more prevalent then than now, which seems ridiculous in these times of crusading politicians and burgeoning mega-churches.

 

The book is a chronology, comprising excerpts from the published works and speeches of noted educators, social theorists, psychologists, sociologists, and other "experts," which she claims prove the existence of a movement to subvert traditional American values. This plot, she believes, was rooted in the desire of American industrialists Rockefeller, Ford, Carnegie, et al., to create a pliable workforce out of unbending Americans in response to the global convergence of business, politics and culture which they envisioned.

 

A basic fallacy of the book, I believe, lies in ascribing to classroom teachers vast powers to mold personality, alter values, and channel behavior.

 

The underlying problem is this: The author sees the trees and descries an orchard producing poisonous fruit. But the orderly planting she perceives to be the work of diabolical Designers is most likely only a tangled forest grown out of the chaotic strivings of humans struggling in utter darkness to improve their world.

 

That said, if you overlook the conspiracy theorizing, "Dumbing Down" offers an interesting overview of the development of modern educational theory.

 

 

 

Nice work of not reading the book and copy/pasting.

 

Had you read the book, you would see numerous whitepapers evidencing these claims.

Had you researched who the author is, you would see that she is in a position to be

quite knowledgeable of the subject.

 

 

Good work on being a dumbass.

 

/golf clap

[Soup]

It's funny when people write literature outlining how our educational system is designed to turn us into a stupid uneducated labor force when america has no labor force. All we have is upper, upper-middle, and lower. We've outsourced our labor to other countries with no intention of ever returning to america. Not to mention people arent stupid in Cuba. They're very intelligent. They speak four different languages, have doctorates and law degrees, but work as maids in hotels because tourism pays better.

 

The author posits that, since at least 1880, US education has been developed with the goal of producing an army of worker-bots, and that to do this, education has been engineered to destroy the cultural matrix that produced the author's ideal --- the rugged individualist, the "God-fearing, educated man of the early twentieth century."

 

The author overlooks the fact that in the early 20th century, education was mostly confined to white males of the middle and upper economic strata. She also assumes that fear of God was more prevalent then than now, which seems ridiculous in these times of crusading politicians and burgeoning mega-churches.

 

The book is a chronology, comprising excerpts from the published works and speeches of noted educators, social theorists, psychologists, sociologists, and other "experts," which she claims prove the existence of a movement to subvert traditional American values. This plot, she believes, was rooted in the desire of American industrialists Rockefeller, Ford, Carnegie, et al., to create a pliable workforce out of unbending Americans in response to the global convergence of business, politics and culture which they envisioned.

 

A basic fallacy of the book, I believe, lies in ascribing to classroom teachers vast powers to mold personality, alter values, and channel behavior.

 

The underlying problem is this: The author sees the trees and descries an orchard producing poisonous fruit. But the orderly planting she perceives to be the work of diabolical Designers is most likely only a tangled forest grown out of the chaotic strivings of humans struggling in utter darkness to improve their world.

 

That said, if you overlook the conspiracy theorizing, "Dumbing Down" offers an interesting overview of the development of modern educational theory.

[lord_casek]

So, what you're telling us in not so many words (not your own words, anyhow) is

that you have no argument for this and resort to amazon.com copy/pasting?

[Fist 666]

i'm just a lurker in crossfire 99% of the time, and i've avoided this thread til today, holy shit.

 

this is one of the most hilarious back-and-forths i have read on 12oz, and in crossfire! oh my.

 

alright, carry on...