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nsmbfan

The best reasons to believe that there is a God

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wiccan is interesting. this girl i know claims to be a witch and that she has magical powers.

 

a big lolwut on all that.

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I think the reason the people don't believe in God, is because they have never been in a position where they needed to believe in God. Live has been to easy for them.

 

My Logic:

 

There is no such thing as an Atheist in a foxhole.

 

I have been in a lot of bad situations and God has never helped me, this is why I dont believe

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I think St. Thomas Aquinas is right in his logic.

 

So you dont believe in God because he never helped you while you were in a hard time? How do you know he never helped you? I dont think God is to blame for humans lack of ability to understand the vastness of his divine will.

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Well for me the logic of god just isn't there, my mind isn't programmed to believe in a god or gods, I just am unable to sit down and convince myself of it. I don't mind people having faith, I don't like the preachy ones, but also I don't push my atheism on people, unless they start pushing their religious views on me.

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I think St. Thomas Aquinas is right in his logic.

 

So you dont believe in God because he never helped you while you were in a hard time? How do you know he never helped you? I dont think God is to blame for humans lack of ability to understand the vastness of his divine will.

 

PORT A JOHN!

 

where ya been bro?

 

good input too. but i don't believe in divine will, or fate. there is no plan, and if there were, life would be meaningless. we would all be cogs in a machine, driving towards some grand purpose. but we're not. we have free will to do as we please and that is the spice of life my friend.

 

when the truth is I could end my life if I wanted to. I can end several lives, and get on the news. the possibilities are endless to ever seriously consider that there is a solitary plan for EVERYONE, and that how we interact each day with each other is in accordance with that plan. meaning everything i do is according to plan, and the effects of my actions were pre-determined to coinside with your plan, regardless of the outcome.

 

it's just not plausible.

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Who says God is supposed to help you. He has a whole universe in his hands. What are you? Who says you should even be alive right now? THere are children getting raped and murdered and here youare, "oh my life sucks, nobody helps me." I think some one on the level of being able to create a universe and maintain its wheels in motion, would be smart enough to know that not everyone can be helped.(and sometimes not being helped is being helped, what doesnt kill you can only make you stronger) And I would also think that God would be smart enough to allow the world to have mixed beliefs about him.

 

 

 

no.

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"No" cosigned.

Your starting point is outlandish, so atheists will seldom engage you on specifics.

I'm what I guess you could call a five-senses atheist. I'm reluctant to use the term atheist at all, because it presupposes a majority belief in god followed by a minority reaction. But a five-senses atheist believes only what his five senses tell him, and (via the scientific method) the testable knowledge accumulated by the five senses of previous observers.

To us, your story of gods and creators and whatnot is bizarre. We don't have any evidence for these crazy stories, and they aren't even sufficiently down to earth to rate as testable hypotheses. (We have some evidence for a Big Bang, although I don't "believe" in that either and suspect it was not an actual event but is a limit on our ability to observe or detect meaningful data in the "before" direction.)

I've heard many of the crazy stories: God as a sort of glorified Santa Claus, God as "everything" (whatever that means), God as the sum total of all that has not yet been explained by science - but none of these are things I can investigate using my five senses. (I do have a great deal of evidence that humans are gullible, brainwashable, superstitious, and frequently wrong about stuff, and the rational answer to that is very consistent: observe what's observable, test what's testable, and leave the crazy stories for the crazy people, or at least fiction readings.)

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I didn't really wrap up my main point, which is this: The first time this "god" topic came up in my life was from rehashes (oral and written) of really old books whose authenticity cannot be verified (the authenticity of what those books' writers saw, if anything). I never saw, heard, smelled, touched, or tasted any god or read about him in a science book. ALL I'VE EVER HEARD is these same stories over and over that sound suspiciously like unimaginative fiction written by superstitious authors. Not only do I have no reason to believe in a god, I have no reason to investigate your crazy claims. There's not enough there for an empiricist to say "Hmm, we better look into this." The fact that five and a half billion lemmings all want to jump off the same cliff doesn't impress me at all. (Other than being a plausible brainwashability rate.)

It's not like there was auto-belief in god first, followed by a handful of people trying to break away or not conform. We are OUTSIDE your whole bubble. For us, there never was any god, and still isn't - just your stories, and no evidence. As is ALWAYS the case for five-sensers, you show me scientific evidence (raw, not cooked) to back up any of your claims and then I will take an interest in investigating. Until then, I wish you luck with your "faith".

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I think St. Thomas Aquinas is right in his logic.

 

So you dont believe in God because he never helped you while you were in a hard time? How do you know he never helped you? I dont think God is to blame for humans lack of ability to understand the vastness of his divine will.

 

how could he NOT be blamed for our lack of ability to understand? Or moreover, how could we as animals, only governed by the known laws of the universe, claim to understand an entity that would clearly lay beyond our comprehension?

 

I do agree there are singularities we have yet to scratch the surface on understanding..but in no way can the Christian rendition, or anything similar to it be stated as even logical for starters.

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God as "everything" (whatever that means)

 

I think perhaps you're glossing over this one too much. What about god as "everything" experienced through your own sensory input and, if you like, information gleaned from science? The concept of god doesn't have to have any concrete explanatory power. Many, if not most, religious stories are allegorical. The god of the visionary is the infinite perceived in the ordinary. It doesn't fill any psychological holes, it is simply a humble recognition, perhaps reverence, of the conditions (known and unknown) of our existence. Some people say that they don't need the idea of god (and nobody has to call it by that name), but I think what they mean to say is that they don't need the institution of the church, or religious codes. I think it's ironic that intellectual abstraction from the idea of god can lead people to miss the point entirely.

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I'm gonna give one more perspective, and then go to bed:

I said earlier I couldn't believe in a god if I tried.

Think about that carefully.

If you don't really grasp that statement, TRY "BELIEVING" IN FRODO BAGGINS.

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Im just saying that some people are not so lucky. Some people are born with mental retardation. Your not. Why? I dont know. If you know tell me. Otherwise, I think you should be thanking somebody that you didn't.

 

Who should I thank? Set up a meeting, I'd like to thank him in person. No other way will do.

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I think perhaps you're glossing over this one too much. What about god as "everything" experienced through your own sensory input and, if you like, information gleaned from science? The concept of god doesn't have to have any concrete explanatory power. Many, if not most, religious stories are allegorical. The god of the visionary is the infinite perceived in the ordinary. It doesn't fill any psychological holes, it is simply a humble recognition, perhaps reverence, of the conditions (known and unknown) of our existence. Some people say that they don't need the idea of god (and nobody has to call it by that name), but I think what they mean to say is that they don't need the institution of the church, or religious codes. I think it's ironic that intellectual abstraction from the idea of god can lead people to miss the point entirely.

 

You have backed so far away from the definition of "god" that I was thinking of that you lost all steam.

What ABOUT 'god as "everything" experienced through your own sensory input and, if you like, information gleaned from science?' For the set <everything experienced through my own sensory input and information gleaned from science> I prefer the title "everything experienced through my own sensory input and information gleaned from science", not "god". Why would I call that set of stuff "god"? I use that term for deities, beings, creators, etc.

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Mainframe, if you were at all interested in whether I have any sort of spiritual feelings about the universe, the answer is yes and can be summed up by this one Bloom County cartoon, I'll see if I can find it.

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I can't find a copy, but it's the one where Oliver Wendell Jones is on the roof with his telescope and gets freaked out by the vastness of the cosmos and the final scene punchline is "Later, he wallows in the welcome mundanity of a chocolate-chip cookie."

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Mainframe, if you were at all interested in whether I have any sort of spiritual feelings about the universe, the answer is yes

 

Well that's what I was getting at. You're right that I am getting pretty far from conventional definitions of "god", but I think these definitions are up for debate anyway. The idea of "god" as defined by many religious institutions, popular superstition, Richard Dawkins, etc, meaning basically an omnipotent deity, bores me. I don't even think it's necessarily what "god" is fundamentally about. To me the idea of a religious visionary or prophet doesn't conjure up visions of some deranged lunatic raving about an imagined power in the sky. There is a Greek word anamnesis (literally "loss of forgetfulness) that I like to apply when considering the religious experience. I think visionaries - upon whom a great deal of religious tradition is based - might have simply had moments of deep spiritual feeling and ego-less clarity, in which they caught a glimpse of the infinite ineffability of sheer existence, which is yet contained within its own totality. I'll stop before I go rocketing off into the cosmos here, but hopefully you get my drift. I don't think it's a new or complex idea, really, everyone can relate to it in some way. Also I think some of Einstein's writings on the subject were very good: "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

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Well we're on the same wavelength. You probably get now that the boring definition of god is the one whose plausibility, testability, etc. I'm arguing against.

As for that "big mystery" feeling I get when looking at the stars or even through a microscope or just a landscape-sized panorama of singular beauty or ugliness, I would go so far as to call it spiritual, but I would not use the word god at all. I'll buy 'anamnesis' if your definition is accurate. And I would quibble with Einstein's quote, agreeing only if it began "science without spirituality" rather than "religion".

I also suspect that what I am content to call spirituality in this context is probably no more than another complex human emotion or emotive reaction, like deja vu, dreaming, etc. that will eventually be explained by future generations of neuroscientists.

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I also suspect that what I am content to call spirituality in this context is probably no more than another complex human emotion or emotive reaction, like deja vu, dreaming, etc. that will eventually be explained by future generations of neuroscientists.

 

I find that explanation only enhances the "big mystery" feeling. There is another Einstein quote that I've already posted in this thread, but I'll post it again: "The religious feeling engendered by experiencing the logical comprehensibility of profound interrelations is of a somewhat different sort from the feeling that one usually calls religious. It is more a feeling of awe at the scheme that is manifested in the material universe."

 

I guess I think it is a conceit of the educated to call this feeling fundamentally different from what the vulgar masses call religion. It is perhaps more refined, it avoids the messy turmoil and pervasive superstition of institutional religion, but I hesitate to say that my experience of the essential mystery is fundamentally different, or better, than that of a religious believer.

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Have I replied to this thread yet? Have I said "Fear"? That's my answer:

 

FEAR.

 

That's the best, and only, reason to believe in God. Fear of uncertainty, fear of the future, fear of death. Fear of an unseen cosmic bean counter who is constantly monitoring your every triumph and transgression; like Santa but he watches while you masturbate (and poop).

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i recently saw a ben stein movie "expelled" or something and it was retarded.

 

i've been atheist for about a decade now. at first i was passionate. i wanted everyone to liberate their mind from the weight that is god-belief. now i don't care. believe what you want.

 

what i wanted to say was that richard dawkins is an asshat. the people he's convincing are the same kids that go to college to become gays, liberals, conservatives or whatever rebellion seems to be in only to revert years later. i don't like him and don't like him running around saying he is the face of atheism.

 

believe what you want, if you're comfortable in it and it makes you happy and gets you through the day, then by all means enjoy yourself, just keep it to yourself.

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some people make gods out of things that really doesnt mean we are suppose to worship them. true worthy beings never required worship.. thats sort of why the bible refers to them as "angels" or angelic beings.. in reality they have specific names. They are in service to the supreme being(s), and there are different classes (or ranks even)of "angels" (AlIeNs??)

 

you guys just dont get it, because the only representations of aliens or other worldy beings youve probably seen are pictures on the internet or in movies... basically pictures of beings that probably look like or had to do with reptile alienoids..

MAYBE you ARE reptile humanoids.. that doesnt mean that the universe isn't going to accept or expect you.. but judgement DOES come eventually..

 

now imagine beings from far away that are so beautiful to see, that you'd literally fall on your knees before them..

these are the higher ranks of angels, in service to the most high..

 

the "angels" that most people see depicted as white men/women with wings and golden halos and golden clothes.. alot of times, really just represented mushrooms, and sometimes represented the planets and or beings that people associated with these mushrooms down to us from.. (sometimes people saw ANGELS when they were on mushrooms.. seeing into realms that arent normally perceived by the un opened [awakened] human eyes) O_O or maybe it was the other way around? yes they had VISIONS.. not "psychedelic cOlOuRs DuDe" but like.. angelic super-natural visions, and different visions for and to different cultures at that... some people probably saw winged angels dudes and ladies due to the natures they lived in, and the mushrooms that had more to do with the sun and lower atmospheres (yellow amanitas) SOME people saw visions that related more to the moon and stars because of the mushrooms they ate had more to do with that like, and pointed out in that direction (psylocibes) ANYWAYS.. african tribes, and southern american tribes probably saw some crazy shit considering visionary plants they consumed that a lot of cultures were very afraid to partake in.. etc etc.. different revalations for different people, that in the end SERIOUSLY related to eachother.. its just the fact that a lot of cultures dug really deep and ended up destroying other cultures and places, because they tried to take what wasnt theres.. alot of people ate the wrong plants and mushrooms (poisonousss), even though they KNEW they were bad.. which basically corrupted them, because of a decision that they KNOWINGLY MADE, and chose to follow anyways..

this is what the hebrw texts referred to as the "deeds of the wicked"

it was plain black and white and for them, and they chose not to follow any colour around..

 

 

theres no use in believing in a three letter word called god.. this comes from people who are unaware or scared to use and partake in these plants and visions.. people who are unwilling to learn and grow.. people who just slapped one big word across what they couldnt understand.. the english word eventually being called "GOD".. the closest thing to that in any old testament scripture (hebrew or aramaic) was probably GAD.. which doesnt sound too creative or fun..

 

the reason that "GOD" is associated with christians is because of the mistranslation of the early Old testament (and new testament ) texts.. it's seriosuly fucked up the way america looks at hebrew and aramaic belief systems cultures that probably had more to do with mushrooms and cannabis, and things that can easily be ingested in any meat consuming diet without having to purge oneself as much, than visionary plants, because those visionary plants make you throw up and actually cleanse you.. "christians" just choose to associate with whats the easiest and most widely accepted.. IN FACT most CHRISTIANS just dont accept the fact that mushrooms and cannabis were a huge part of what the texts that christianity originally comes from are based on.. they just choose to believe in jesus instead, a fictional character.. when in fact jesus never existed.. but in fact there was a messiah, if not more than one messiahs.. who were merely men who actually did something to help failing portions of mankind.. theres proof that YASHUAH (who is documented in arabic texts as well as hebrew) was really just fighting for the end of cannabis prohibition at that time while healing people with medicinal herbs and plants along the way.. whatever he brought with him from each town (as an offering from the peoples of those towns) to the people of the next destination..

when this came to the roman empire, their goverment had very strict watch over cannabis just as america does today..

 

A lot of the people that yashuah visited were sick because they only ate meat and stuff, much like american cultures of today.. and they didnt know about certain herbs or healing, or much times didnt HAVE anything, besides maybe just some cannabis or a few mushrooms.. alot of people probably didnt know when or wear or how to grow this plant... but considering it grows everywhere under any condition, it was possible, alot of them just didnt understand it yet..

 

in the mean time, this is where healing was necessary, this is where the part of laying hands on people and praying shows up, they annointed people with annointing oil (which in the old testament specifically calls for cannabis as the main ingredient to be used) in order to heal them... along with hymns and the goodness cannabis brought, a lot of these people were healed soley just from that.. :)

im sure they had instruments and stuff to guide these sicknesses out of people bodies...

 

 

so when it comes to the UNITED STATES of America, in its current state, we dont have much value anymore.. we dont have gods much, so people just worship other people.. sometimes, people score some acid, thats about it these days.. and then theres a bunch of mushrooms and homegrown cannabis (indoor) which is a good first step, but gets left at that.. this is where the point of the sun comes in.. the sun causes the plants to grow properly, without it, these plants lack nutrients, and thus even though we have food, we are still in famine..

 

sun festivals were necessary to people, because they wanted to please the cosmos, in return getting good crops that season..

 

thats pretty much why we need to legalize cannabis and hemp, so we have a reason for existence in this shitty ass country.. so we have some kind of worth and value besides paper and coins.. and manufactured drugs like acid and "ecstasy" pills

 

most importantly, I tell you this :

take part in the blessings that nature around you has to offer, and hope and pray that soon things will be set free for us again..

once cannabis is legal our soil will get much better, and we will be able to grow a lot of other plants that were originally here in the first place.. hell they might even re grow naturally once we start getting healthier ourselves..

 

I hope people can understand this.. :)

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Have I replied to this thread yet? Have I said "Fear"? That's my answer:

 

FEAR.

 

That's the best, and only, reason to believe in God. Fear of uncertainty, fear of the future, fear of death. Fear of an unseen cosmic bean counter who is constantly monitoring your every triumph and transgression; like Santa but he watches while you masturbate (and poop).

 

most people only have fear, because they afraid of something that usually ends in judgement

or just a fraid of judgement themselves.

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