van jones.

[iloveboxcars]

im a big fan of him leaving office but i was wondering how everyone else felt on the topic.

 

 

and that is why i made this thread.

 

please be more specific than i was, im watching ted.com stuff and cant pay too much attention to words.

[Smart]

Fuck You Van Johnson, Make way for Vin Deisel!

[lord_casek]

He's facing fires for speaking his mind. I think he's a pinko, regardless.

[DPMS556]

hes a racist, if that's what you call it when you hate on white people.

[ILOTSMYBRAIN]

The problem here is that nobody politically is willing to support him in his claims, because they are too afraid of the back lash.

 

When odds are if one or two people ended up lining up behind this guy, and stating the facts as to why they feel that way. I'm sure more Americans would have understood and maybe even supported his view.

 

Of course as someone who feels as if an independent investigation is necessary, he shouldn't have had to resign because of that alone.

 

I also know absolutely nothing about this man, besides that he signed an petition and than resigned as too not hurt Obama in the polls.

[Overtime]

hes a racist, if that's what you call it when you hate on white people.

you're a racist cuz you hate black folks, so naturally you assume he is a racist against white folks.

[Soup]

Fuck Glenn Beck, that lying scumbag. Glenn Beck hates on any black man whos more educated than him. Fact. People KNOW hes full of shit and yet they think all of a sudden hes going to start speaking the truth? Fuck anybody who listens to him. Kill yourself.

 

Van Jones is a great man and one of the only real civil rights and environmental activists in the white house.

 

http://fora.tv/2009/02/02/Van_Jones_Green_New_Deal

[iloveboxcars]

lol@soupspost.com

[Soup]

I know im a half a year late on the discussion but seriously, we NEED van jones in office.

 

That dude resigned because his name was on a petition that stated the CIA and the Bush administration allowed 911 to happen. First of all, he's an environmental advisor, so regardless what he believes about 911 it doesnt have an affect on his job or who he is. Secondly, the discussion about the facts surrounding 911 isnt a closed discussion. He should be allowed to say "I don't know what happened, anything's it's possible." That's what that petition was.

 

And what pisses me off about this is that the media are more interested in defending the sanctity of the bush administration than they are about greening the economy. They're in fact willing to disrupt the progress of the environmental council in hopes of ousting a black man from the white house, and dont pretend that this isnt a racial ordeal either. The groups he was involved in that the news is calling "revolutionary" and "communist" were community activist groups in the black community.

 

And the literary works/teaching of Karl Marx arent some fucking blasphemous ramblings that only give power to the likes of Mao, Stalin, and Hitler. American communists have never been traitors to America. They're civil rights activists who want to give aid to poor people. That's it.

[Soup]

[iloveboxcars]

uh, there are direct quotes from van jones saying he was a radical communist and he joined so-and-so group because they shared the same ideals.

 

 

communism is bad, mmmkay.

[Soup]

You need to know your history a bit better.

 

Communism in america has always been a grassroots movement towards socialization of all races and classes, and had this concept of community been embraced by political officials instead of erradicated in the 50's and into the 00's, you would have a reduction in crime/depression/suicide/drugs by about 90% since all of that is attributed to segregation of race and class.

[iloveboxcars]

im not understanding how thinking communism is a bad idea has anything to do with what history i am familiar with.

 

and that second statement is just ridiculous.

 

just because something has been a grassroots movement for a long time doesnt make it a good idea.

[Soup]

Everything you know about communism is from reading about its history, or do you just make stuff up?

 

If all you took from what i just typed was "Something thats old and grass roots is good" you read five words of that and quit. The term "grass roots" is meant to mean "originating locally" in contrast to the idea that communism is some international plot to overthrow America and hand it to "pinko commie Russians. "

 

Let me dumb it down for you: Communism is only a word. Words mean different things. Socialism is used to describe totalitarian governments in the Caribbean, and our Fire departments. It doesn't mean the same thing. Militant is used to describe jihadists, but also Chinese students in math class. Communism is used to describe the teachings of karl marx, but also used to describe the end of freedom and liberty. The way American Communists use it, Communism is a term to describe civil activism and integration of communities that have been segregated by race, religion, and class.

 

The need for this integration (and the purpose of American communist groups) comes from a statistical fact that crime and depression are trademarks of the segregation in a capitalistic society. Karl Marx foresaw this and sought to replace capitalism-- NOT DEMOCRACY--with communism. Karl Marx was in fact was trying to restore democracy to the working class.

 

The communist movement in american society predates Leninism and Soviet Russia. Socialist labor parties have been in america since the 1800's. In the 1950's however, the soviets were seen as a threat to democracy. american politics saught to destroy anyone who was a communist, even civil rights activists. That would be like going to war against Iraq and killing all american muslims because they read the same book. Oh wait, some Americans tried to do that.

 

What im trying to say is stringing someone up by their feet because they claim membership with an american communist organization is like stringing you up by your feet because you ride your bicycle to work.

 

 

To tie this all back into the Van Jones discussion. THAT'S what he chastised for being apart of: A communist civil rights activist organization hell bent on taking over the world integrating their primarily black community to solve socioeconomic issues like crime and depression and restoring democracy to the working class.

[iloveboxcars]

you sure do assume a lot. actually i didn't even bother reading passed the second paragraph of that last one because of how you decided to assume since i have a different view of what is good for a country that i am somehow less educated than you are.

 

 

 

i did skim a bit more just now, and you just claimed that some one who wants to drastically change the way our government is run is the same as someone riding their bicycle to work. come on man, i know i was drunk the couple of times that i met you, but you really cant be this retarded.

[Soup]

Funny, I'm thinking the same about you. I said that claiming affiliation with an american communist regimed civil rights group is just as communist as riding your bicycle. THat may or may not make sense to you based on your own definition of communism.

 

This is getting too crossfirey so i'm going to stop. If you want to have a discussion, read it for what i wrote.

[angelofdeath]

You need to know your history a bit better.

 

Communism in america has always been a grassroots movement towards socialization of all races and classes, and had this concept of community been embraced by political officials instead of erradicated in the 50's and into the 00's, you would have a reduction in crime/depression/suicide/drugs by about 90% since all of that is attributed to segregation of race and class.

 

black economists walter williams and thomas sowell have demolished your last claim. they have owned it so hard that there is no point in even furthering the discussion on that topic.

 

so, you are one of those guys who thinks stalin and mao were bad, but their ideological basis is sound.

cool. atleast you admit you are a commie or atleast would love to have private property overthrown, use of the total state to achieve total egalitarianism and equality of outcome/performance/result and elimination of classes.

 

how do you propose the communist party/communists/socialists in america will achieve this goal without violence?

 

im all for allowing y'all to do what you want, how you want. set up your classless society all you want. but using a central government to enforce your will on the 300 million people of the US with outright marxists and fascists that have controlled DC since the early 20th century, isnt going over to well with alot of americans that still cling to their liberties that are left.

[iloveboxcars]

Everything you know about communism is from reading about its history, or do you just make stuff up?

 

 

my entire family before my generation grew up in east germany.

 

i have first hand accounts. where is all your information coming from?

[Soup]

This is getting way too crossfirey for me. You want to put words in my mouth please put a dick in yours.

 

Im not going to sit here and try to convince you that there's a difference between communist dictatorships and social economics. If you get it cool. If not, sucks for you.

[angelofdeath]

i recognized the difference in my post. but you totally admitted the intellectual tie that binds is the same

[Soup]

Yeah. The word communism. Oh eets so scawwy. Bicycles and co-ops and the color red. Wait, now its the color green.

[angelofdeath]

you actually like the thought of enforcing your beliefs on the entire country/world by force and eliminating the liberty of the people.... what is so great and noble about this?

[Soup]

Are you a mole or do you enjoy using a dictionary with the word "communist" cut and pasted next to the definition of "dictatorship?"

 

What about Black people in american prisons who call themselves communists?

Are they part of a soviet totalitarian regime out to eliminate your freedom?

You think they have plans to overthrow the government,

or are they trying to utilize karl's manifesto as a way to keep civility in the jail and not get buttfucked at night?

Maybe even strengthen community activism in their impoverished black neighborhoods too.

Do they threaten you? They have nothing to DO with you. Unless you're a paranoid honky who fears a racewar.

 

You're regurgitating the same shitty rhetoric politicians were spouting in the 50's while they rounded up every community activist who registered as a communist in America. Think of that, they wanted to take away your freedom so bad they registered themselves as communists in a democratic-republic country. They're really attacking the heart of America with that move. Hahaha. And here's the irony, America locked THEM up; Took away THEIR freedom. Who's the hypocrite?

 

To back this all up to the beginning of this thread, THAT's the communist party Van Jones was in

He was a black man in an Oakland jail surrounded by "Radicals" who weren't militant nearly as much as the black panther party,

They were ENVIRONMENTALISTS who every now and then went up against a police barricade in Oakland.

They wanted to take Black communities off the powergrid.

 

 

So go ahead, keep talking about how ideologies like communism are inherently evil.

Communism is a socialist ideology. What else is socialist:

gas and electric companies, fire departments, public schools etc.

YOU WOULD FUCKING HATE AMERICA WITHOUT SOCIALISM.

ITS WHATS KEEPING THIS SHIT ECONOMY BARELY AFLOAT FOR THE LAST 150 YEARS.

 

On top of that Jones quit communism when he moved into a larger political arena.

You can't call yourself a socialist or a communist or a hippy anymore because of idiots like you who confuse it all with pinko dictatorships. You've gotta call yourself an Environmental economist, or a social activist. It means the same thing. White people dont want to hear these people because they speak for poor people, so they call them COMMUNISTS and everyone gets all up in arms, goes crazy, and good yale educated people like Van Jones get kicked out of office.

 

So before you try calling me or van jones a traitor to america, take a step back and appreciate what you have because of socialists like Karl Marx and his ideologies. And consider that what people in other communities believe in is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.

[Soup]

Here, you can read about his "Communist" affiliations here.

 

When he was 26 he was involved in STORM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_Together_to_Organize_a_Revolutionary_Movement Who was mostly concerned with preventing state government from outsourcing jobs and demolishing government housing.

 

Then when he was 28 he founded the Ela Baker Center http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ella_Baker_Center_for_Human_Rights Which is responsible for creating tons of "green collar" jobs around Oakland.

 

This is a smart educated motherfucker. This is who you want in office. Just because white america has an issue with the term "communist" shouldnt be reason to make Black america suffer, and ultimately americans of all race and class suffer too.

[angelofdeath]

socialism has kept the shitty american economy afloat? what planet are you from.

 

last time i checked, environmentalists were calling for elimination of carbon emitting vehicles, controls on private property, insects over humans and even population control. and this is not totalitarianism?

having the govt put a gun to the heads of the 'rich' in order to steal their property to increase the living standard of poor blacks is not coercive? socialism is not coercive?

 

yes people who want to take away my liberty in the name of the collective, protecting the environment, helping the poor and the like ARE A THREAT TO ANY PERSON WHO WANTS TO RETAIN FREEDOM. if your socialist agenda is not coercive why do you feel the need to force everyone to pay for your schemes?

 

yes, the fire department and schools are socialist. who said they weren't? do you think im some sort of neo con?

 

the intellectual tie that binds a soft social democrat and mao tse tung are the exact same. people obama is appointed have openly praised mao. mass murdering mao. a guy who is associated with an ideology that has killed tens of millions of people.

 

you cannot have social equality, egalitarianism, classless societies without smashing all dissent. why wont you answer this question?

or are you really a non coercive socialist that will leave me the fuck alone if i want to own enough guns to arm 20K regular army troops, do whatever i want to with my land, not pay taxes or use your 'socialist' services that are keeping this 'shitty economy' afloat? will you leave me alone and out of all your schemes so long as i commit no violence against anyone?

i highly doubt it. socialists cannot leave freedom lovers alone. they continually seek to regulate and run their lives. it is the mark of a free society where people can advocate and practice socialism privately, but if you practice capitalism and freedom in a socialist society you end up being an enemy of the state and thrown in a gulag.

the utopia of socialism cannot be had without violence and the use of violence to enforce it.

 

consider what i have because of karl marx? are you actually serious or just trolling?

 

you are right, it doesnt matter what people think. it matters what y'all are trying to do to me. regulate me, tax me, conscript me, send me to war, and infringe upon my natural liberties

[Soup]

Wait a second, you're a crackpot. You're a crackpot who fears any ideology a man may have. Even your own. Come back to earth, Conspiracy Man. Start talking about reality and not "I need to wear a tin foil hat to prevent your idology from taking away my constitutional right to drive a Hemi." Not only are you so wrapped up in this ambiguous argument over the potential Armageddon a person's THOUGHTS can bring, you havent said a single thing about Van Jones.

 

This is why crossfire sucks.

 

Here let me wrap up the environmentalist's ideology into a nutshell before you have a heart attack about thinking someone's going to take away your guns, raccoon hats, and whatever else.

 

In order for any ecology to be "sustainable" all gains and losses must return to zero after one human lifecycle. That means all the shit that you put in a landfill, all the carbon you've emitted, ALL THAT SHIT needs to return to how it was on day you were born. That shit just isnt going to happen with how we live our lives. it's an ideology. Environmentalists arent jahova's witnesses going door to door trying to convert you. We don't have guns and tanks taking over continents and illegally evicting you from your homes. We're just smart enough to know infinite growth is impossible on a finite planet.

[angelofdeath]

Wait a second, you're a crackpot. You're a crackpot who fears any ideology a man may have. Even your own. Come back to earth, Conspiracy Man. Start talking about reality and not "I need to wear a tin foil hat to prevent your idology from taking away my constitutional right to drive a Hemi." Not only are you so wrapped up in this ambiguous argument over the potential Armageddon a person's THOUGHTS can bring, you havent said a single thing about Van Jones.

 

conspiracy man? you are denying that the federal government regulates the size of peoples toilet tanks and what types of bulbs they can put in their lamps? why dont YOU come back to earth, comrade.

its not that just your THOUGHTS that are bringing infringements on human liberty, our legislators and your president, with the same collectivist statist ideology have brought infringements on our liberties for years. and you are denying this?

 

This is why crossfire sucks.

 

believe it or not.... in recent times there has been good and courteous dialogue by most everyone in this section for a while. if it sucks, and you dont want to debate things, why are you here?

 

Here let me wrap up the environmentalist's ideology into a nutshell before you have a heart attack about thinking someone's going to take away your guns, raccoon hats, and whatever else.

 

why do you feel the need to mock the piece meal destruction of liberty in america? you simply laugh at things like 'free speech' or 'gun rights' or any of this, because if it doesnt serve your collectivist ends, it is evil.

 

In order for any ecology to be "sustainable" all gains and losses must return to zero after one human lifecycle. That means all the shit that you put in a landfill, all the carbon you've emitted, ALL THAT SHIT needs to return to how it was on day you were born. That shit just isnt going to happen with how we live our lives. it's an ideology. Environmentalists arent jahova's witnesses going door to door trying to convert you. We don't have guns and tanks taking over continents and illegally evicting you from your homes. We're just smart enough to know infinite growth is impossible on a finite planet.

 

there is no need to come on here and preach about mainstream 'green' environmentalism to me.

im more of an environmentalist than most all of the 'environmentalists' ever will be. up until my parents generation, all food was grown on our family farm. they composted. they had an outside shit house. they only killed animals that they ate. they didnt have any trash to dispose of. everything was recycled. generations of my family are buried on family land and family churches. my grandmother was born and raised in a log house on the side of a mountain. all you watermelons (green on the outside, red on the inside) all live in the city and are what i refer to as arm chair environmentalists. most never set foot into any wild or rural areas and hate the ways of rural people. you want to sit around and talk about the 'environment' when you dont really know anything about it, other than what some discredited global warming scientists want to flap about.

 

yes, environmentalists are running the lives of americans. they regulate all manners of our lives. there ideology has influenced law makers to pass laws that forbid you to build on your own land if there is a population of snail darters. you cant even buy a toilet with a tank that holds more than 1.6 gallons of water.

 

so you believe over population is a grave threat to the world?

you know, all the people making this claim have it within their capacity to reduce the population by one, but i dont see them acting on it.

even the greens cant live by their ideology. has al gore stopped using energy and has he sold his 20K square foot compound in favor of living in a mud hut? has barbara streissand backed off on that 22K water bill?

[Soup]

First of all let me point out that although you say Crossfire is thoughtful and courteous, you fail to remain on topic and not once have mentioned Van Jones. Asking why I am here is hipocritical. I'll respond to your other statements but I'll ask you to try to keep this to Van Jones, his ties to communism and environmentalism. Like I said and you've repeated twice: are you here just to disrupt crossfire?

 

I'm not preaching anything.

 

Everybody's grandparents built their own houses, raised their own livestock, used outhouses, etc. That was the entire west coast from Washington to California. Probably most of the mid-west as well. Back then you bought your house out of a catalog and they shipped you the parts. Your grandparents weren't anything special, nor does it make them "environmentalists" by their standards or by today's.

 

You seem to be in contempt of the idea that a government would enforce the use of energy efficient bulbs and toilets. That's the most insane thing I've ever heard. There is absolutely no downside to energy efficiency. HOWEVER, NO, the federal government does not enforce what bulbs you use, or how many times you flush. The federal government provides inscentives to construction companies to build greenly in the form of "carbon credits." The more "green" materials a construction site uses, the more credits are given. After construction is finished they are given money for these carbon credits.

 

And I never mentioned overpopulation. Im also refraining from talking about overpopulation in this thread because of how many open cans of worms there are already.

[angelofdeath]

First of all let me point out that although you say Crossfire is thoughtful and courteous, you fail to remain on topic and not once have mentioned Van Jones. Asking why I am here is hipocritical. I'll respond to your other statements but I'll ask you to try to keep this to Van Jones, his ties to communism and environmentalism. Like I said and you've repeated twice: are you here just to disrupt crossfire?

 

i did not refer to van jones nor do i intend to. i am merely commenting on the leftist ideology that ties all you together.

 

Everybody's grandparents built their own houses, raised their own livestock, used outhouses, etc. That was the entire west coast from Washington to California. Probably most of the mid-west as well. Back then you bought your house out of a catalog and they shipped you the parts. Your grandparents weren't anything special, nor does it make them "environmentalists" by their standards or by today's.

 

i guess i left out the fact that an entire portion of my family still lives this way today. one guys family lives in the same farm house with an outhouse, mows and bales hay and works at a saw mil for his living. he drinks water from the spring behind the house that is piped into the house. he raises animals on the same land that has been in his family for centuries. what has the government done that affects this guy? the environmentalists have reintroduced coyotes and protected them in this area of the national forest, and has made it illegal for him to protect his herds of animals from them. the farm is over run by rattle snakes because a rattle snake sanctuary is only miles from his house. it is illegal for him to hurt the snakes in any way.

 

this property is totally 'sustainable.' they waste nothing. but of course this isnt the al gore/soup version of environmentalism. your version involves a bunch of people who have never set foot in the 'environment' sitting around thinking of new ways to torment the people who do. all the while enjoying the luxuries that you can only owe to the free market, capitalism and free exchange and living in a place that is the opposite of a pristine natural environment. if you were serious about your beliefs, why are you using this inefficient environmentally unfriendly computer? why does earth crisis mass market cds made of plastic and linear notes on paper from the rain forests yet talk about how the machines are destroying them?

 

why does my relative live here you ask? it is all he knows. the federal and state governments ceased over 500 acres of this farm during the depression because he was delinquent on paying the state his yearly rental fee, aka property taxes. then they forced him to sell his land to the federal government to create the national forest for pennies on the dollar. or face jail time. extortion much? my family has preserved more land and animal habitat than any government ever has. its like night and day. if you walk into the nat. forest from the farm, you see how everything is torn up, fire rings not far from the farm, tore up 4x4 trails, water sources with shit in them, etc. the farm itself is pristine. this is what happens with private ownership, you tend to take care of what is yours. with the commons you have the tragedy. people trying to get all they can out of it because its free. so they lose nothing if they destroy it.

 

yeah. heaven forbid being one with the land, recycling, being a property owner, you could never be an 'environmentalist.' 'environmentalists' are just greens on the outside, commies on the inside that want to spend their entire lives trying to decide what people can buy, how they live their lives and what is best for them. where in the constitution does it say that the federal government can seize your land because migratory birds might land on there a few times a year? where does it say the federal government can dictate the size of your toilet tank? ever think that those little tanks you love so much cause multiple flushes and actually use more water in the end? how benevolent of the federal government and yourself to feel comfort in the fact that you are actually allowing us mere mortals the ability to decide how many times we are allowed to flush. you are so good to us.

 

You seem to be in contempt of the idea that a government would enforce the use of energy efficient bulbs and toilets. That's the most insane thing I've ever heard. There is absolutely no downside to energy efficiency. The federal government provides inscentives to construction companies to build greenly in the form of "carbon credits." The more "green" materials a construction site uses, the more credits are given. After construction is finished they are given money for these carbon credits.

 

yes im in contempt of anyone telling me what to do. if you sat around and told me what kind of toilet to buy, i'll just laugh. but when you have a bunch of gods in DC sitting around telling me what to buy and putting people in jail that are selling black market toilets that are bigger than the prescribed bureaucratic size, i have a problem. the government should only be protecting rights, not taking any away. this is all they have done for well over a century. took away rights.

 

'green' energy forms arent even proven to be 'green' in the first place. look at the ethanol scandal you watermelons supported. it was all well and good till you found out that the impact of growing the extra corn and that it takes more oil to produce the same quantity of ethanol. the free market determines all this naturally. the government subsidizing all this distorts this practice. instead of allowing prices to operate naturally, everyone wanted to stomp out 'price gougers.' prices are to the economy what street signs are to the road. if a price is high that is an incentive for people to innovate and find alternative forms of energy or find a way to compete to lower the price. but every action a government takes has atleast 1 unintended consequence.

 

im sure you support civil liberties or atleast pretend to. if these are infringed upon i'd hope you would be mad. but perhaps you can put to me the clause in the federal constitution that gives the federal government authority to pay someone extra money for building 'green' buildings, what types of bulbs can be sold and what size tank my shitter is?

 

 

And I never mentioned overpopulation. Im also refraining from talking about overpopulation in this thread because of how many open cans of worms there are already.

 

the ultimate goal of gun controllers is eradication of all guns in private hands. the ultimate goal of environmentalists is ridding the planet of ..... ideally .......... well... everyone. or atleast the people that dissent from the watermelon party line

 

 

i'll never understand it. the free market allows bunny huggers and tree worshippers the ability to pool their money together voluntarily to preserve any piece of 'environmentally' sensitive land. however when its crunch time, this would require the greens to put their money where there mouths are.

i dont see al gore, michael moore and the rest giving up their huge houses, vacations and bmw's in exchange for some desert canyon or mosquito infested swamp. if given the choice whether they would like to buy a muddy slew infested with rattle snakes in a desolate region of the south or a mansion in the city or suburbia which do you think they would choose? they never put their money where their mouths are.

 

this is what i will be doing when i finally find the right place to settle down. my place will be as 'sustainable' as possible. (to borrow the new jargon) i will have alternative energy forms. i will rely as little on the grid as possible.

 

but the environmentalism they all support is nothing more than saying...'i propose to hire armed thugs and authorize them to force others to fund my casual warm and fuzzy whims, seizing money from the unwilling to use in forcing private property owners to kneel and honor he dictates of my particular religious priesthood, by having armed agents threaten them with jail time and arrest if they do anything with their land that threatens to irritate the snails, bugs, weeds and venomous pestst living there. the survival of these molds and leeches is more important to the collective good than the liberty of a property owner to do what he wants on and with his property so long as he never harms another human or his property.'

 

shrugging our shoulders at the environment is not an option we are told. but throwing california farmers in prison for running over rats with their farm machinery is an option.

you know not to long ago the fore fathers of the modern environmental movement were saying things like: 'i wouldnt trust the market to force these damned ukrainians to give up their precious private property and join in our cooperative farming schemes, as laid down by comrades marx and engels. no, relying on the short sighted marketeers is not good policy and merely shrugging shoulders when these stubborn kulaks stand in the way of our grand plan for a workers paradise is not an option.'

 

you see the only problem was the goal of those people. but the methods they pioneered for government agents to use in imposing a brave new vision on an unwilling populace (for their own good, you see) - propagandizing children in government schools to memorize simplistic slogans and snitch on their parents, for example - werent so bad after all. we just need to use these methods of govt force for a slightly more noble goal!

 

its easy for you to say 'we should not allow...' when you dont actually envision yourself beating the helpless nonconformist to the ground with the butt of your rifle, forcing him to drag himself on bloody hands and knees to the cattle car as his weeping wife and children are led away never to be seen again. the only alternative to the free market is a market in which participants engaging in unapproved transactions are arrested, beaten and if they resist hard enough, shot in the head and dumped in a grave. in the end that is what it always means to not trust people with their own liberty

[Soup]

You're not on topic; you're rambling about yourself and your family; your concepts of environmentalism are five years out of date. Nobody's even considering ethanol anymore. Everybody's about wind and solar. And living in the woods doesn't make you an environmentalist. Strange, I know, but if everybody moved back into the woods there wouldnt be any. You also clearly don't belong to the same group your family does since you're connected enough to the grid to use the internet. You can learn more from reading any of the links I posted on the last page.

 

You're also STILL under the impression the federal government is telling people what toilet to buy. There's no such thing as a black market toilet. Nobody's saying your cousin can't shit in a bucket. For those that are actually hooked up to a hydro grid, there are cash incentives to using less water.They're not telling you to do shit. They're just willing to give you cash for conserving water.

 

I'm tired of reading your off topic ramblings.

 

End of discussion.