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Survivalist, Self Sustainable Lifestyles or Whatevs....

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When a New York Times Bestselling Author like Jared Diamond writes a book like Collapse about the rise and fall of advance civilizations, you tend to think there is a grave concern widespread among literate and informed americans about the sustainability of our way of life.


I've been into survivalism and studying it for most of my adult, teenage and adolescent life. Call it a hunch, paranoia, or obsession predicated upon the fact that my very existence is somehow intertwined with an apocalyptic scenario (long story). Anyways, after reading this fromthewilderness article on Petrocollapse and a scaricity of clean water, I figured it's about time that I create a thread on survivalism, so we can pool our knowledge on the subject in order to make our regression into the 19th century less painful. Why? Because I care about you assholes.


I've been seeing some interesting texts on Permaculture lately. Going green has always been the province of some of the further left people, but it's been gaining more and more creedence.

There are more ambitious alternative energy projects such as the Solar Tower of Power which can churn out the same amount of power as a reactor. But that is in austrailia, and we here in the U.S. will stay fucked with these cavemen in office. Fortunately though still living in a somewhat free society we can do more now individually with solar power than before. We are not, sadly, getting integrated solar roofing materiels here in the US. I have however seen solar power systems which can take your home entirely off the grid for 10,000 dollars. If it is integrated into the home as it's built it can add nothing to the costs. It's becoming ever more affordable.

Even so I don't feel comfortable with my own survivability as of yet. I still don't have my bunker/farm in the middle of nowhere, with the self contained energy system, with recycleable rain water etc. etc. When I have that, I will worry alot less. For now I will have to deal with getting fairly clean water from distillers like this:


Distillation removes most impurities.

I'm still going to stock up on guns and ammo.... but I'm going to make sure to sharpen my archery, since who knows how long those bullets will last.

Some essential skills to have would be knowing the wildlife in your area... how to make impromtu shelters... various ways to get, and clean water... probably knowing how to tan a hide would be good too... how to make soap... I will add some more detailed tutorials and resources later because this is a massive subject.


So until we have gigantic solar panels on the moon, or patching up our o-zone holes, this is something I think everyone should think about.

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FINALLY, a topic upon which Villain and I agree 100%.


IMHO, the periodic little "panics" that occur over one thing and another help immeasureably to motivate people towards "preparedness." (On the right wing, the term "survivalism" is un-PC. It is a back-door insult, akin to insinuating that liberals are unpatriotic because they are against war, because people who use the word "survivalist" try to equate "being prepared" with "being ready to predate upon those who are unprepared." In other words, if I am prepared, I must be wrong for being ready to defend my stockpile against looters.)


The New York Times is always on the wrong side of every issue, so I'm surprised if they are on the correct side of Preparedness. I have not read the article, but experience tells me the Times is probably looking through the wrong end of the telescope, as usual.


The most recent scare that amounted to much was the Y2K thing. I still have (perfectly good) stockpiles of food, ammunition, medical supplies and so on marked "1998." My wife and I began preparing our family and encouraging our friends to prepare for Y2K several years before December 31, 1999. I first heard about Y2K in 1982, when computer programmer friends of mine were discussing it at a cocktail party in San Francisco. They stated flat out that there was going to be a collapse of at least part of the computer infrastructure because of the two-digit annual date limitations of the programs that had been written in the early 1960's. Computer scientists then had NO IDEA that these programs would still be running FORTY YEARS LATER. They thought that the probable life span of the programs being wrtitten then was about ten to twelve years, at the extreme.


The global computer community collectively spent SIXTY-FIVE BILLION-WITH-A-"B"-DOLLARS correcting the gazillion lines of computer program code to avoid a world-wide meltdown. There were, in fact, quite a few problems, but the problems that did occur were minimized and hushed up. No planes fell from the sky. No electric grids stopped working, and society did not collapse. As a matter of fact, some companies posted all-time record highs in productivity and sales, because of the huge increase in demand for generators, freeze-dried food, water purifiers, etc. My wife and I stockpiled an eight months supply of food in our home. We are probably the best supplied on our block, but we succeeded in encouraging about half the block to stockpile food, water and medical supplies. One of my neighors sneered at the whole idea (I never liked this asshole) and sarcastically said "Well, if there's a blackout, I'll just come over to your house." I said, "Better bring a gun, because I won't give you a god-damned thing. I'm telling you right now, you need to start stockpiling. If you choose to let your family go hungry, that's YOUR problem." On New Year's Eve we fired up the neighborhood CB network and did a radio check. We had eleven CB'ers check in.


New Year's Day, 2000, I actually felt a little disappointed, as well as relieved. On the one hand, I was glad we weren't faced with konked-out phones and traffic signals, but on the other hand, I felt like some of the people I had talked to would blame me for convincing them., and of course, a couple of them said "Boy, do I feel stupid for listening to you." But several others said "I stayed up and watched it on TV last night, and the government was taking it dead serious. I think we did the right thing, even if it turned out okay. I could have used some more hurricane supplies anyway."


Since then, there have been a few other scares. On 9/11 my daughter called me from her high school, all upset and said "Dad! How many gas masks do we have?!!" And I said, "Seven. Why?" "Oh. I was worried." "Well, we've got plenty. Come home if you feel scared." "Nah, I'm okay." A lot of my neighbors wanted to go buy supplies, but my wife and I didn't need to buy a single thing. We are already prepared.


I'd love to have a rural home, all fortified and with shelters built underneath it, but realistically, I will probably never have that. Running from a disaster to your "retreat" is called "bugging out" in Preparedness jargon. Staying where you are and toughing it out is called "bugging in." I'm a bug-in kind of guy.


I think living "off the grid," generating your own power, planting "urban gardens," (or in my case, "suburban gardens"), stockpiling food, distilling your own drinking water and other beverages, having photoelectric power cells on your roof, insulating your home for maximum efficiency, etc. are wonderful ideas. I also am a big believer in a bicycle-based transportation system, recycling, living as minimalist a lifestyle as possible, and cheap, efficient public transportation.


And, of course, I am a 100% believer in being able to defend oneself and one's home and family. I have no desire to harm anyone, but I would not hestiate to use deadly force against any looter or predator. My neighbor owns a used car business. He intended to bring several trucks home to barricade our street if things got bad. We joked about digging fighting positions in the yards on the end of the block. He bought a new shovel. I bought thirty dollars worth of sandbags from my old militia unit commander, who owns a big construction company. We went around and asked people to dig out their old CB radios from the attic and get them tuned up and working again, since we assumed that the phones, pager system and cell phones would be out of service if there was a computer collapse. Several people did so. We used channel 10, the "westside" Houston CB channel as our channel.


I guess, in retrospect, it was a little over the top, but a lot of people were very worried and upset that the crash might actually happen. My computer programmer buddies moved to newly acquired rural mountain property several weeks before Y2K. They got rich writing code during the last six months of 1999, working 16-hour days. But, of course, the "survivalists" were all just a bunch of paranoid, redneck bumpkins that the well-educated, sophisticated liberal elite laughed at for their preparations. My friends and I have thousands and thousands of rounds of 9mm, .38/357, .45 ACP, .223/5.56mm, 7.62x39mm and .308 Winchester/ 7.62mm NATO. We have stockpiles of food and supplies adequate to feed our families for months. We have generators, water purification equipment, pressure cookers (for autoclaves and stills), stockpiles of propane, gasoline, oil, kerosene lamp oil, etc. We are prepared to weather the storm COME WHAT MAY.


But we "survivalists" are the stupid ones, the buffoons, right? If there is ever a genuine, no-shit national or global emergency, then we will see who is stupid and who is not, LOL. Meanwhile, I have enough whole grain wheat stored to last till the end of time!


One last piece of advice: don't forget to stockpile a couple of can openers, LOL.

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Originally posted by KaBar2@Jul 2 2005, 02:52 PM

But, of course, the "survivalists" were all just a bunch of paranoid, redneck bumpkins that the well-educated, sophisticated liberal elite laughed at for their preparations.


But we "survivalists" are the stupid ones, the buffoons, right? If there is ever a genuine, no-shit national or global emergency, then we will see who is stupid and who is not, LOL. Meanwhile, I have enough whole grain wheat stored to last till the end of time!


One last piece of advice: don't forget to stockpile a couple of can openers, LOL.


Please document this wide spread belief by educated liberals and don't count among them comedians...


When you can not, you will relaize that SOME people mock you not because you prepare for war or colapse, but more because you carry with your actions what seems like a desire for the end if for no other reason than so you can say 'you told us so.' You seem to assert your willingness <sometimes with the polite, 'I hope it doesnt but..'.> to kill or how close we are to civil war in every long winded rant you present...that is why I can't take you seriously.

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Alright, I'm glad Kabar is contributing because I know he is well versed on the subject.

Note to self: Food preservation. This is something my own grandparents did regularly yet the art is completely lost to me. Eventually those canned and processed foods are going to run out... so preserving ones own food is absolutely necessary. Especially during winters. I will be gathering information on this.


I think I'd rather bug out, though that is not as practical. I would bug in as a last resort though. That's good that you can attain a solidarity with your neighborhood because that's so many less people you have to worry about trying to rob your ass. You still have to deal with the less prepared neighborhoods though.

Mass chaos would ensue.


I've posted before about forming a collective to live off the grid, and even start our own nation. I was fucking serious. Having a self contained society would be the best way to prepare for and deal with this IMHO.


We have the ability to create and sustain a society, with all of the modern amenities. Just have a look at this fab lab:



More on the fablab:



You could have your own industrial factory in your garage.

Fabricating anything you can imagine.

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The right-wing phrase 'When the Shit Hits the Fan," (WTSHTF)sometimes written as "when TSHTF," is shorthand for the Big Collapse, or Mass Riots or whatever. The period after WTSHTF is called "The End of the World As We Know It,", or TEOTWAWKI (pronounced "tee-oh-TWAWK-ee"). It sounds like some Native American language or something, LOL.


Two different stategies are called for to deal with TSHTF and TEOTWAWKI. Generally speaking, TSHTF is considered to be more or less like a free-for-all, with threats coming from every direction, and a great deal of street fighting, arson, explosions, gas stations looted and set on fire, banks and grocery stores attacked and looted, etc. In short, chaos and anarchy. The survivalists do not expect the police or the National Guard to be able to control anything. During TSHTF, the Bug-outs are planning on fighting their way to their retreats(hopefully unoccupied by local opportunists that snickered and sneered at the survivalists for worrying about the shit hitting the fan.) Many Bug-Outs that I know own big, heavy 4x4 vehicles with what can only be described as "roadblock-buster" bars on the front, and large capacity fuel tanks (preferably diesel) and bullet-rersistant panels in the doors, cab and engine housing. They aren't actually bullet proof, but they are kind of bullet resistant, kind of like a less dramatic Mad Max truck. Some of them have a removeable gun-mount post in the bed, so that a semi-automatic, belt-fed weapon could be mounted there, or perhaps a machine gun. (There are civilian versions of the M1919A1 that are legally owned, semi-automatic versions of the M1919A1 WWII machine gun. They cost around $1600.)


Our militia unit knew several Federally licensed Class III machinegun dealers who let us shoot their stock for fun and to generate possible sales leads. None of us bought any, partially because of the expense, but mostly because of the hassle with the BATF to get a Class III tax permit so one could legally own a machine gun. Instead, we bought civilian versions of the Soviet machinegun (RPK) called the NHM-91, in 7.62x39mm caliber, and 75-round drum magazines to fit them. Machineguns are great, if you have a zillion-dollar logistics train airlifting you fresh ammunition. But for the militia? Too expensive to run. Several of our sister units had members who owned legal machineguns, but not us. If we had bought one, it would have had to be one chambered for 7.62mm NATO caliber. The M1919A1 has one version in this caliber, it was produced for Israel, and Israel sells disassembled parts kits from these guns to U.S. surplus dealers, but reactivating one is a huge hassle, and very expensive because of the wonderful gun laws in the U.S. Rich people can afford a $10,000 machinegun, no problem. Us poor folks gotta do without. Other 7.62mm NATO machine guns are the Vietnam-era M60, and the modern M240G (the machinegun currently in service in the U.S. armed forces.)

These Bug-Outs are anticipating strong resistance to their movement, either by the government, or by local thugs who wish to rob refugees, or criminal gangs or whatever. Whoever it is, the Bug-Outs intend to get where they want to go, and if they have to kill a bunch of people who are trying to stop them, I guess they'll do just that. Many of them belong to groups, and they intend to move in what is more or less like an armed column, ready to defend themselves against whomever.


The Bug-Ins are much more circumspect. They intend to stay right where they are, form a defensive position, and drive off any outsiders who attempt to come in. They will let looters burn down the Wal-Mart, but it's death for anybody who attacks their neighborhood. Oftentimes they have their eye on a piece of empty land close to the neighborhood, like a park or a big vacant lot, where they intend to put in a large garden, and defend it from looters. They usually have strong connections with their neighbors, and keep their preparations hardly visable to the outside. They are pretty much systematic in their approach: water, food, medical supplies, fuel, power, communications, defense. If you start thinking about how much water you use, and how difficult it would be to obtain drinkable water if the municipal water supply failed. . .it would be BAD. Houston has about four million people in the metropolitan area. If the water system failed, we would be killing each other over water in a week or less.


PLAN ON DIGGING A WELL. It may be dirty, muddy swill, but at least you'll have something to drink when the taps run dry. Better plan on how to get the water OUT of the well, too.


Stored food is #1 priority. It takes TIME to grow a garden or raise chickens, etc. Most people in Houston haven't seen a live chicken or duck in twenty years. We always joked that the biggest risk to your guard dog is your neighbor's barbeque pit.


Medications, First Aid supplies, books on First Aid, childbirth, "Ditch Medicine," "War Surgery," "Where there is No Doctor," "Where there is no Dentist," etc. You will need a stockpile of medicine, both over-the-counter and prescription medicines, including painkillers and antibiotics. You will need the basic surgical tools, scalpels, blades (scalpel blades are removeable), retractors, various kinds of surgical needles, hemostats of various sizes, surgical thread, catgut, silk, etc. You will need syringes and needles, alcohol, hydrogen peroxide, Betadine solution, bandages, tape, wire for splints, cotton padding, plaster of Paris, casting gauze. Aspirin, Tylenol, ibuprofen in large quantities, cold remedies, Benadryl, topical anti-fungal ointment like Tinactin and also vaginal micronazole for girls and women (for yeast infections.) You'll need several different kinds of antibiotic ointments, and oral antibiotics. You'll need just about every kind of First Aid and medical supplies you can imagine, and a bunch you did not think of.


We tested numerous kinds of radios, and we were not pleased. After extensive field testing, we decided to go with CB radio, both 23 and 40 channel models, and 2-meter HAM radios. The 2-meter HAM radios also handled 440cm, if memory serves. (I wasn't a communications guy, I was involved in selecting weapons and ammunition.) We rejected VHF/UHF (no penetration in dense woods or rolling hills) and FMRS. Some of our sister units swore by "hunter" VHF/UHF rigs, but our guys did not like them.


The best, by far, were CB's running a footwarmer, and HAM radios. Some of those guys bumped their CB's up with a linear amplifier to around 250 or 500 watts (this is illegal--a legal radio can only be 5 watts, so don't do it.) You could practically pick them up on an ALICE pack frame. We were getting about 7 miles out of a vehicle-mounted CB, and about 10-15 miles out of a mobile 2-meter without the repeater tower. With the repeater, about 65 miles, but in a real emergency, we figured the HAM repeater on Southwest Memorial Hospital's roof would be the first to go.


The higher the antenna, the wider the broadcast. (CB's and HAM are line-of-sight broadcast radius, from the tip of your antenna to the "horizon" of your broadcast radius, so the higher the antenna, the farther your signal will go.) Some people would carry a compound bow and shoot a di-pole antenna on a thin rope up into a tall tree, communicate, then pull the antenna and the rope back down. We also built "backpack" radios using a 40-channel CB mounted on an ALICE pack frame, and a counter-balanced military surplus PRC-25 antenna, powered by 12 volt deer-feeder gel-cell batteries.


More later, gotta go eat dinner.

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i haven't though much seriously about about this subject, except on how to help end the human race haha. i sort of have my own farm in the middle of nowhere, except it's not mine and was inherited by my aunts and uncles who will probably sell it. i've always had the feeling i would regret them selling it some day, but not so much now. it's not very good for growing vegetables because of the lack of rainfall and grasshoppers. we certainly would be in trouble in the event of no electricity, because the well is operated by an electric pump. there is a pond with dirty water.

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Both of those addresses are excellent--Warlord is actually somebody I have corresponded with in the past and discussed various ideas. The articlle on "survival preparations in an apartment" is very good, and probably a lot more germane to the lives of the people on 12 oz. than my experiences and preparations.


The biggest hurdle to overcome is adopting a "survivalist mindset." For instance, about 99% of preparedness is having enough imagination to think "Gosh, what would happen if the freeway bridges to Gotham got blocked by a burning gasoline tanker?"


This kind of thinking is easier if you have some experience. If you live in South Central and witnessed the Rodney King riots, nobody has to work too hard to convince you that you could suddenly find yourself surrounded by rioting idiots and the police withdrawing and cordoning off your side of town and abandoning it to burn.


On the other hand, if you've never been in a fist fight, and have never seen any crime or "civic disorder," you may be emotionally convinced that "That sort of stuff never happens here in Maplewood."


WRONG. It can fucking happen ANYWHERE.


A lot of survivalism (for me) is just thinking a certain way. For instance, I always fill up my truck when the tank reaches "half full." It's exactly the same amount of gasoline and money, but if I fill it on the 1/2 mark instead of waiting until it's on "E," I always have 150 miles of gas in my tank. Most cars and trucks, regardless of size, have a tank good for about 300 miles. So just stop waiting. Fill it up when it hits "1/2."


I carry the usual car repair stuff in my truck, but I also carry what's called a "bug-out bag," or BOB. A BOB is supposed to give you a fighting chance of reaching home or getting away from an urban disaster if your vehicle is disabled or caught in some huge traffic jam. It's just an old school backpack filled with stuff like liters of water, energy bars, a couple of cans of pork and beans, a spoon, a P-38 can opener, a First Aid kit, maps of Houston and Texas, extra socks, a baseball cap, a rain slicker, a flashlight, a radio that takes "AA" batteries, EXTRA "AA" batteries and so forth, $100 in small bills and rolls of quarters, a good knife, a box of .38 Special ammunition and a box of .22 LR ammunition and assorted other things. If things went south and my truck was disabled, and there was no bus service, I'd just start hiking towards home. I have a Concealed Handgun License, so I always have a pistol(s) either on me or in the truck.


This kind of stuff is not adequate for survival in the long term, and it's purpose is just to get you back to your primary survival cache.


WOMEN, in particular, should carry a BOB in their cars, and should include a couple of cans of Mace or other pepper spray to deter attackers. My wife used to be very uncomfortable with the idea of shooting an assailant. Then she got mugged for her purse. Now she says she would have no problem whatsoever pulling the trigger. I asked her, "Do you want to buy some pepper spray?" and she said, "No, my .38 will do the job." Many women feel initially reluctant to defend themselves, but a little EXPERIENCE with criminals, and they become pretty hard-hearted.

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good topic and sites, thanks. what is that nickname ofr a P-38 can opener? I used to know it, it was old military slang. (they used to have meals before there were MRE's and they came with these can openers for the beans or fruit or whatever was in them)

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The military can opener's nickname is "P-38," because back during WWII, the Army Air Corps had a pursuit aircraft called the P-38 "Lightning." The P-38's main use was against tanks, and the troops called it "The Can Opener." It had an automatic cannon in the nose that shot holes in enemy tanks very well.


When the Army introduced it's nifty little can openers, designed to be worn on one's dog-tags, the troops wryly nicknamed it the "P-38," after the tank-busting aircraft. During Vietnam, the troops called this same can opener a "John Wayne."


A shotgun is a rather low-pressure firearm. It would have to be VERY old to be dangerous. There was once a common type of steel used in shotguns called "Damascus" steel, These shotgun barrels were formed by repeatedly folding over and hammering high-carbon-content steel, giving the barrels a curious marbled appearance. (If you ever see one, you'll immediately recognize what I'm describing. They are quite pretty, but very weak.)


A .410 gauge shell does not have much power (compared to a 12 ga.), and the shotguns that fire .410's were often rather inexpensively made. It is considered a "boy's" shotgun mostly, generally a good companion gun to a bolt-action .22LR rifle. They are good for rabbits, squirrels and other small game, and will DEFINATELY KILL A HUMAN BEING, so be careful with it. The range is kind of short, but a .410 single-shot would be a great survival shotgun. If it shoots okay, buy a bunch of different kinds of shotgun shells for it. They even make slug rounds for .410's, so technically, you could hunt deer or hogs. (If you shoot at a feral hog, make damned sure you don't miss. Most people who hunt hogs use a much bigger firearm than a .410, and usually a repeater, just in case they miss the first time.)


First order of business is to THOROUGHLY CLEAN IT. Make sure the barrel is FREE OF ANY OBSTRUCTION WHATSOEVER. Then, I would either take it to a gunsmith or gun shop and have him check the "headspace," or I would duct-tape it to a tree and fire it using a LONG STRING tied to the trigger. Shotguns headspace on the rim of the shell (all shotgun shells are "rimmed," nobody makes a "rimless" shotgun shell.) The only way the headspace of a .410 shotgun could be damaged would be if someone fired a high-pressure .41 caliber round for a .41 revolver through it. Even then, it's unlikely. The other big concern would be a bulged, bent or cracked barrel.


Most likely, it's okay. I say "Clean it, and get out the duct tape and kite string." Once you back off and yank the string, and it goes "bang," eject the cartridge and examine it closely. You especially want to note if the primer is bulged out backwards from the primer cup, flattened or smooshed in any way. (Other than dented by the firing pin, which is normal, of course.) A flattened, smooshed primer might be a sign of excessive headspace (because there is too much room behind the shell, and the pressure forces the primer backwards against the face of the breech, where the firing pin hole is.) If the spent shell looks okay, most likely the gun is fine. Shoot it five or six times, and examine each empty closely. If they all look okay, I wouldn't worry about it any more. Before you fire a shotgun, ON EACH OCCASION, check and make sure the barrel is free of any obstruction, and MAKE SURE you only have ONE gauge of shotgun shells in your pocket. A 20 gauge shell will fall into a 12 ga. barrel and could block it. Then you might accidently load a 12 ga. behind it, and blow the gun up, LOL. But of course, this can't occur with the little .410, it's as small a shotgun shell as they make.

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also if the .410 is a damascus twist, make sure you dont fire any kind of "hevi" shot or steel shot, or "hi power." its designed for the lead only shells. also dont fire slugs unless your positive its an open choke, although, most .410's are i think. the ironic part is, .410 shells are damn near twice as much as your normal box of target load 12guage's. i found this out recently, my little brother got his first .410. so i went to by some rounds for him, i grabbed a case of 12 guage size 8 target loads for skeet shooting for 32$. go to grab a couple boxes of .410's, the cheapest box is 11.99 for 25 shells. looked around and found some target loads for 7.99. slugs were 6.99 for 5.

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definitely interesting reads here.


I've never personally experienced warfare or riots on a large scale, so this type of stuff does seem distant and almost unreal to me. But Kabar, I find it kind of unbelievable that you think it's necessary to have thousands of rounds of ammunition and a concealed handgun liscence.

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Because I loves me some firearms, maybe we should toss around some ideas for inexpensive but quality heats.


In my opinion a mosin nagant is one of the best deals on the market


Used by the russians in world war 2

Uses the 7.62x54R round, which for a small arm is pretty powerful.

The mosin nagant 91/30 pictured above can be had from aimsurplus.com for 69.95.

Of course you have to have it delivered to a liscensed firearms dealer in your area who will charge you a fee for doing the transfer, usually $20-30.

Dont pay more than $30 for the transfer.


Ammo is quite plentiful, but all of the ammo i've seen is corrosive, so you have to clean the gun after you shoot it if you dont want the barrel to get fucked.

Aim surplus has ammo for it in 440 round cans for $32-36


You can probably find one of these mosin nagants at a gunstore.

I bought mine which is a 1938 model which is just like the one pictured above but its shorter for 99.99 from fleet farm.


Kabar: I was looking around at the NHM 91s and could only find those with the thumbhole stocks, isnt there another type of model?

What are some more machineguns that have been made semi auto for civilian use. I've seen Vector Arms RPD clone in semi auto which is beautiful, but the $2000 price tag is what gets me.


Also, on medical supplies, cheaperthandirt.com has czech medic bags for $35 which seems like a pretty good deal


edit: wheres a good place to store ammo? Mine is all in my bedroom and i hate to think about some sort of fire blowing my ass up while i'm asleep.

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The M91/30 Moisin-Nagant rifle is probably one of the best deals on the market right now. There is a shorter, handier version too, called the M44, which shoots the same cartridge.

The 7.62x54R is a big, full-power rifle cartridge. Nothing "small" about it, except it's current price. It's in the same class as the British .303, the 8mm Mauser and the US .30-'06. These cartridges were designed for WWI conditions, long range, trench warfare. The 7.62x54R is a "thirty caliber" cartridge. (The US 7.62mm NATO uses a projectile of approximately the same diameter.)


The NHM-91 did originally come with a thumbhole stock. I have seen several that have had the thumbhole stock replaced with an RPK stock kit, and a sufficient number of Chinese parts replaced with American-manufactured parts to render it legally an "American manufactured" assault rifle. "U.S. manufactured" assault rifles were subject to a different set of standards than "foreign manufactured." Happily, all that shit is in the past, since George W. refused to sign a renewal of the Assault Weapons Ban. RUN, do not walk! straight to a gun store and buy as many unencumbered assault rifles as you can afford, LOL.


For my money, I'd go with one of the semi-auto 7.62x39mm Yugoslavian SKS's. They cost about $100 wholesale. You can get a used one for as low as $89. The ammo is dirt cheap too.


There are a number of other "semi-auto belt feds." There are semi-auto versions of the .50 M2 HB, if you've got the $$$. There are both 7.62mm NATO and 8mm Mauser versions of the German WWII MG38 and MG42. There are semi-auto versions of both the RPK and the RPD. I've heard rumors of a semi-auto RP, but never seen one.


"Survivalism" is really more about being able to supply yourself with the basics of life: clean water, stored food, medicene, transportations, etc. Defense is probably only a very small part of it. However, I have heard many supposed liberals say that they saw no need to go buy a 4x4, if there was a survival situation they would just go down to Land Rover and steal one. What can I say? Some people just don't get it.


Survival skills do involve shooting and marksmanship, but they also involve vegetable gardening, well-digging, bicycle maintenance and so forth. "Living off the land" is a complete fantasy. Just imagine 280 million people all trying to "live off the land." Not a chance. And take my word for it, people out in rural areas will NOT welcome hundreds of city slickers intending to squat on their land. I figure any survival shooting I do will be at the two-legged kind of varmints.


I store ammunition ONLY in sealed military surplus ammo cans. They aren't fireproof, but they are probably fire-resistant unless they are right in the flames. Got guns? BUY A GUN SAFE.

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and to think the only thing i have in stock and surplus is weed. i cringe at the thought of running out. :innocent:


but seriously, very interesting topic villian. what about those survival courses where youre stuck in the middle of the forest for 30 days and you need to survive off of bark and berries? id like to know how to survive without having to eat my friends like that move "Alive". im having thoughts of night of the comet dawn of the dead and rambo at the same time.

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I hear you about the running not walking. The unfortunate thing is i live in a state where the government has decided I'm not responsible enough to own an "assault rifle" that is on the banned list, which is pretty much a carbon copy of the federal law.

I have to wait a year then apply for a permit to purchase.

So for right now I'm stuck with the CETME without a flash hider.

At least I got a good one though, i've heard century has a rep for churning out shite when it comes to their CETMEs and FALs

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im not a huge fan of the soviet style guns, (eh maybe its more on principle...) but for situations like this, they are plentiful, cheap, ammo is cheap, and ammo is plentiful. basically anything chambered in a "nato" round is what you want. you dont want to be stuck trying to hand load something. which is one of the reasons i dont have one of the new 6.8x43spc ar15's yet. availability of ammo sucks. the m44's are literally cheaper than dirt. i have heard of group deals where you can get them for as little as 75$ apeice if you buy like 10 of them. and i have heard some of these things getting accuracy under 2 moa at 100 yd. a buddy of mine is was on a kick of buying cheaper foreign type military arms, and they just seem so cheap. bolts real tight, problems loading, feeding sucks... but what do you expect for the money. it would be nice for everyone to have new m16a4's or m4's but again cost is a factor.


as for the guy who said you cant believe kabar has a carry permit... i ask, do you wear your seatbelt in your car? thats all a gun is. its just like wearing your seatbelt in a car. granted my state is pretty tough on carrying, but my dad just got a carry permit since he is a business owner. i could definately get mine, since he did, under the same qualifications, however its really not worth it, with the restrictions on it. it would basically only entitle me to legally wear a gun in my car going to and from work, since i can wear a gun on private business property and at home. i like michael badnarik's stance on the issue. when asked why he chooses to carry a gun, but without a permit, he responded "rights dont require permission." our country would be WAY better off if we adopted vermont/alaska style carry laws. open carry for anyone, with out a permit.


this same topic of survivalism came up on another board i frequent, here is a post someone made on "why we need assault weapons."







"Americans and Canadians, please read the following even though it's long:


Not to advocate illegal activity, but to advocate illegal activity, I do believe that if I lived in an area ripe with crime and well-armed drug farmers/guards, I'd disregard any local law saying I couldn't have equal and superior firepower to protect myself or others.


Sure, you run the risk of getting caught, but we as Americans are getting to the point where good, honest, law abiding citizens need to start a campaign of passive resistance. You must ask yourself, what is more important? An anti-Constitutional law written by some paranoid, power hungry dipshit, or making an effort at ensuring your survival, along with possibly your families or friends survival?


For those of you who aren't American or Canadian, let me point something out to quell some confusion and concern, as I believe this issue is very cultural: survival, safety and freedom are often contrary to each other. All three can be used as a means to one of the other's end, but sometimes they butt heads. We all cherish freedom. We cherish the relative safety that it provides. But freedom needs tending as there are those who seek to encroach upon it for their own selfish ends. As this happens from time to time (hence the term "revolution"), we must sacrifice our safety to ensure our survival, so that we may last to keep our and future generations' freedom alive.


I'm not talking about martyrdom, rather intelligent resistance. Revolutionary hero Patrick Henry said "give me Liberty, or give me death!" and that's just what he got; the stupid SOB was hung by his neck while thousands of other "Yankee Rebels" fought smart and won the war. Martyrdom may be all well and great when forming a nation, but that sort of mentality has no place in today's world. What good does screaming a battle cry and running headlong into the enemy with guns a'blazin' do for your family? If you're dead, who's around to fight for them?


No, today's battles must be fought differently, but with the same concept as our Founding Fathers used to topple the British Empire with a rag-tag group of farmers and smiths who were untrained and scared crapless to go to war. I'm talking about guerilla warfare, but of a more nonviolent, organized and peacefully resistive sort. For example, what happens when the 100 million (or more) Americans with guns just up and decide to carry them in public one day? Imagine it...1 in 3 of us. Sure, Liberals would soil themselves and wide-spread arrests would be made. But can they take us all?


Martial law could never be applied to effect as there aren't enough active or reserve military, nor would the National Guard be effective as they're ill-equipped to handle large scale suppression against a peaceful people who are spread out amongst everyone, going about their daily business and not rioting in a single place where they can be contained. Indeed, there would be a "crisis" for the government, as We The People realize once more that our government exists because we allow it to. Power would be stricken from the hands that bind us and the naysayers thrown in Fort Leavenworth for Constitional impingement.


Unrealistic? Why?


Damn a stupid 10 round mag restriction. Forget bans on folding stocks. Screw it all. I'm not championing a firefight with the government but I do sanction resistance. Your life, your families lives, your friends lives or even random strangers lives are much more important to uphold than upholding some damned law jammed through the legislatures and judiciaries by some anti-American Big Government arsewipe.


The Garand is an outstanding rifle and all Americans should own one (see the CMP for details on how) and revere it as a near-Holy object as it has ensured the freedom for millions and vindicated the lives and causes of countless millions more who died. There is no glory in death, but there sure as hell is glory in making sure the dead did not die in vain. However, the Garand has seen her day and is best replaced for today's struggle.


That means adopting a firearm that is almost universally despised by the anti-gunners. These so-called "evil" firearms are evil because they pose the greatest threat to entrenched power. "They" do not like inexpensive military style firearms with bayonet lugs, high capacity magazines, folding/collapsible stocks, pistol grips, threaded barrels, etc. So that's precisely the sort of gun we all should buy, and by the droves!


I submit that each and every one of us Americans and Canadians go out and buy a Yugoslavian SKS. Brand new they cost around $150. You can find them used sometimes for half that. Cut the barrel back to 14.5", thread it and weld on a good flash hider to bring it up to 16" (or if you're going to break the law, might as well make the barrel shorter and forget about welding the muzzle device). Ditch the wood stock in favor of a composite folding stock. Replace that crappy 10 round mag with a few 30 or 40 rounders then load them up, minus 2, with surplus ammo and armor piercing rounds every 3, 4 or 5 rounds, with a tracer 4 or 5 rounds from the bottom so that when the crap hits the fan, you'll know when it's about time to dump the mag and you don't get caught with an empty gun at the wrong time.




For less than $300, you can have a gun that packs a whole lotta punch, is extremely effective at sub-300 yard engagements and will really, really piss off the anti-gunners. It's the epitome of what they hate, so sock it to 'em hard.


If you live in an anti-gun state, you should be careful with such a weapon. Remember: passive resistance. If you choose to carry it in your vehicle, take great care to hide it well. Use your imagination and you can come up with ways. From experience, I can say cops aren't always the most thorough searchers. Providing you don't break any other laws to attract attention, you should never have that problem anyway. Also, join as many strong firearms associations as you can, since if you get caught, you're going to need legal counsel from someone who understands your plight.


If you get busted take it to the Supreme Court and force the issue in our highest court who has tip-toed around the Second Amendment for far too long. No better time than the near future when Bush loads the bench with conservatives!


Keep in mind as you read all this, that I'm not saying you should be stupid. I really hate advocating breaking the law, but these sort of laws are illegal in themselves! But if you cherish freedom and survival, prepare to sacrifice. Survival doesn't always mean "maintaining current way of life." If you get caught, expect to pay The Man because he's gonna be mighty P.O'ed that you dared to defy him.


The views insisted upon by me in this post are not necessarily the views of others on this forum, Sniper Central or it's owner, but by God they're the views of every last living American and Canadian patriot whose hearts beat to the sound of a drummer in our not-so-distant past. When trouble comes knocking, answer with superior force. It's the American way. It's the way of Freedom.


If not for you, for your children. If not now, when?


"They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Ben Franklin


"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all." - Thomas Jefferson"

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more from that other board...








"Even though the recent "assault weapons-turned-survival" thread has quietly died due to some mild disagreement and everyone's desire to remain friendly, the topic has continued among a few of us in PM.


Recently, the topic of survival groups has come up, so since I seem to have been deemed the resident crazy, paranoid survivalist type (mwuhaha, *rubs AR-15* ), I figured I'd turn the subject to the forum since I know a lot of this preparedness talk has gotten at least a few of you thinking. As thinking is a good thing, here's my take:


There are two basic schools of thought in survivalism: bugging in and bugging out. Bugging in refers to staying put in your home or "survival location." Bugging out refers to leaving home and relocating to the "survival location" so you may bug in there. As so-called survivalists like to at least attempt to prepare for any contingency that may befall us, both are good to prepare for. For example, you keep a few months worth of food, water and other supplies stocked up in the basement. This is good in case of hurricanes or blizzards. But, you also keep a backpack or other bag/container loaded and ready to go just in case you've gotta haul tail outta Dodge. A nuclear, biological, or a chemical attack would be a perfect example of this necessity.


Both have pros and cons, and in a survival type situation, cons could equal death to you and yours. So survivalism really boils down to risk management and problem mitigation. Not so crazy when you think of it like that, eh?


Anyway, so far the United States and Canada have been lucky in the sense that every time there's a large disaster of some sort, there are always pockets of civilization. For example, even though hurricanes destroyed a lot of Florida last year (and may do so again this year!) and much of the electricity/cell phone service/water service/etc., was out state-wide, there was still the presence of civilization. However, the United States and Canada are almost singular in that regard, as a great many countries in the world have been stricken by a severe disaster that has affected the entire nation within the last 50-75 years. Basically, a survivalist believes that it's only a matter of time before it happens here.


As we have seen in other parts of the world, and with our experience with Human nature, when the economy/society/government collapses, all hell usually breaks loose eventually. How long it takes for the break down depends on the nature of the problem. But regardless, it happens. Since we were also recently talking about EMP, let's use an EMP event as an example for discussion. Here's the scenerio:


Iran has constructed/purchased 6 nuclear warheads and paid a Chinese nuclear physicist to enhance the weapons' EMP output. Meanwhile, the Iranians have modified several cargo ships to hold the missiles and have a retractable door over the hold so we'd be none the wiser. The ships approach the United States in the normal international shipping lanes and once they reach their launch points, they release their payloads. The 6 EMP-enhanced warheads detonate in spread out locations 200 miles above the surface of North America. The resulting EMP knocks out the northern third of Mexico, the continental United States and the southern third of Canda (almost all of the Canadian population is within a few hundred miles of the US/Canadian border)


Lights out, Folks.


Okay, so we lose most of our electronics. No big deal, right? Except that most cars built post-1985 are now 3,000 pounds of scrap. And most of our transformers have blown due to the surges in the lines. Likewise, power plants are dead. It would be easy enough to rebuild, many would say, however how many spare transformers do you think your local power company keeps on hand? A few hundred, tops...For a city that has literally thousands upon thousands of transformers. Even small towns and cities will be grossly under-stocked. We couldn't simply get new transformers as all the factories would be down. Europe couldn't simply send us more as they use a completely different system than we do, so we'd have incompatibility issues. Plus, what if Europe was hit by an EMP too?


So the power outtage would be fairly permanent, lasting at least a few years. Some estimates plan on a decade or more. Given our extreme dependency on electricity and the proliferation of necessary electrical equipment to support that dependency, a 10 year estimate is not at all unreasonable. Without electricity, most would be without a lot of necessities, the most important of which would be water. Granted, most places rely on gravity for water pressure, it still takes power to pump water up into the large tanks. Once the tanks are empty, no more water pressure or water period. Those with wells probably use electric pumps and only those with windmills and survivalists with hand pumps would be immune to the water shortage. Unfortunately, that's not many people. Let's assume that the community water tanks hold enough water to supply everyone with the necessary 1 gallon per day needed by a human for a healthy diet for a week. Add to that the 30 gallon supply in the water heater. For a family of 3, that's 10 more days.


Also figure that most of us probably only keep around a few days worth of food, no more than a week or two in the majority of homes. Grocery stores would still be stocked up, but they don't have enough food to supply an entire community for more than a couple of days themselves. The distribution centers don't hold more than a month's worth of food for the stores they supply, but that's useless if all the delivery trucks are dead.


So, at best, most people would be out of food within a week or two and out of water within two weeks as well. In the meantime though, the government would be doing it's best to spread propaganda around about how "the power will be back soon, everyone stay calm." Most people are sheep, so as long as there was food and water for those two weeks, for the most part that tactic would work. On the side, the government would be mobilizing the military and FEMA for martial law if they haven't declared it already (which they probably would have).


Then the end of week two hits. All the food is gone. All the water is gone. Primal instinct kicks in. Rioting that was once sparse, will become widespread and people will begin to loot, trying to find the necessities of life. They can't be blamed in doing this though, they're just trying to save themselves and their families. Regardless, previously good people will now be willing to kill you for what you've got, even if it's nothing more than the bottle of water in your hand, the shoes on your feet, or the gun on your hip.


Over the course of the next week or two, the unprepared will basically kill each other or form gangs to more efficiently loot and pillage. The government will order everyone to move into what are more or less "concentration camps." Those who do not comply, will literally be rounded up by patrols of National Guard, regular and reserve military and local law enforcement. Rioters, looters, etc., will be executed on sight. The powers of martial law will be used to their fullest extent. All rights will be stripped. You will be a criminal if you do not obey the order to move into the camps. You could be held indefinitely without trial, but most likely, you will simply be stripped of everything you own and they will tell you it will be "used for the common good" as they toss you into the concentration camp with the rest of the sheep.


Naturally, the government cannot cover the vast majority of the rural land that comprises the United States and Canada, so they will focus their efforts on metropolitan areas since that's where most of the population is. They will assume nature will take care of most everyone else, and those it does not are not significant enough of a threat to bother with...For now at least. Thus, living in the country will offer the greatest protection from martial law and concentration camps. But, those who also do not wish to comply with martial law, like survivalists, the desperate lucky and criminals, will flee the cities and move into the countryside.


So after all that set-up, here's the problem: Assuming you either already live in the country or you've found your way to a bug-out location in the country, and assuming you're prepared to survive, you've got a serious problem. Actually, you've got a set of serious problems.


1) Desperate people will be coming your way. They will likely be willing to do anything to get what you have inside your home or "survival compound." Most will probably pass if you tell them, but some will require forceable convincing.

2) Survivalists will be coming your way. As they're like-minded, they will probably be good to go and not need your assistance. However, some may be the "commando" type and figure they have a good chance at getting some of your goods.

3) Criminals will be heading your way. They may be in the form of gangs, and will not discriminate whatsoever in their selection of targets. Each and every person, house and man-made object will be targets for their efforts. These gangs may be as few as half a dozen, on up to 100 or more, depending on the leadership and mindset. Don't expect to be able to reason with these people.

4) The government, eventually, may head your way. Believe it or not, the government is probably the least of your worries, providing you can get out of their way first. And hopefully, by the time they get around to sweeping the countryside looking for people like you, most of the soldiers and police will have said "screw this" and gone home to their families. Still, as preparedness is the name of the game, the government is still a contingency to prepare for.


Now back to the whole point of this...What are your thoughts on forming a survival group / colony? Remember, the "Defender's Advantage" is 1 defender to 3 attackers, providing decent weapons and preparations such as fortified positions, fields of fire, etc. Little training would be required just so long as the man or woman in the foxhole knows how to fire their weapon, reload it, and where and what to shoot at. The basics of retreating would be a benefit for them to know, as well as those behind them knowing how to provide suppression fire.


While everyone living in the same immediate area on some remote plot of land in Texas or Montana for the sole purpose of survival probably isn't the most practical thing in the world, my belief is, a loose network of sorts would be a good idea. Knowing your neighbors is a very good thing in this sense, and indeed, they may believe what you believe. In addition, having an open invitation to your home for people that you trust all over the continent would be a good idea too. For example, when the wife and I get situated on our ranch in Montana, several of you would be welcome to our place should the crap hit the fan. Prior to any emergencies, we would work out the logistics of you getting to our place, and once the bad deal went down, you could bug-out to Montana.


At least, that's what this crazy-assed, paranoid, BDU-wearing, AR-15 petting, survivalist thinks.


Oh, and if you think the scenerio about Iran putting EMP-enhanced nukes in cargo ships and launching them is a whole lotta B.S., think again. Donald Rumsfeld gave an intelligence briefing about this very event. The Iranians performed a dry run of precisely this situation last November over in the Red Sea. The cargo ships that launched the dummy missiles wormed their way into cargo convoys and were lost in the thick of things. Now ask yourself, who do you think they're preparing to EMP attack?


Sleep well tonight. But more importantly, think. Remember that the American Founding Fathers wanted us to be independently independent, and ready for any problems that we may face. Preparedness and survival isn't about being a paranoid anarchist, it's about being a good American, a good provider for your family, and a responsible, moral person. Think about it.


*EDIT* I just wanted to add that I'm not advocating that this scenerio is the most likely even to happen. Naturally, other disasters are more likely, and which one depends on where you live (hurricanes on the Gulf, tornadoes in Texas, earthquakes in California, etc.). This is simply the "worst case scenerio" in my opinion and would thusly require the most extreme measures, like forming a survival group. I'm also not advocating that everyone should do this thing or that thing, and rather bring this particular situation up merely for the purposes of discussion. My "crazy" only goes so far.

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Try to leave the politics out of this. I'm tired of all the bullshit muckracking. That's why I subtitled this "news you can use"...

I bought a czech ak-47 with 30 rd mags during the AWB and I'm quite happy with it. SKS' are good assault rifles as well. That's all that really need to be said.

The EMP scenario is interesting. I recently heard a representative from maryland talking about how a russian general once said to him that if they really wanted to wipe the US out, all they had to do was fire a high yeild nuke and detonate it at a high altitude for maximum emp effect and that would cripple the US. If it was fired from a nuclear submarine we would not even know where it came from and have no retaliatory targets.

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Villian---The U.S. government tracks every submarine in the world 24-7/ 365. Of course they would know who owned it, and most likely would counterattack "the usual suspects" even if they were not 100% sure of who launched it. Nuclear war is a very real danger and we've come way too close for comfort over 20 times since 1945. The most recent close call that I'm aware of was in 1983, I think. It was a computer screw-up. That error was the basis for the movie "War Games," although in real life, of course, it did not involve a young hacker, but just some doofus computer programmer who screwed up and somehow allowed a war games projection to leak into the early warning system.


The point is, it COULD happen here. This is not any new development, it has been this way for over fifty years. I live in Houston, the petro-chemical center of the Gulf Coast. If the SHTF, I doubt I will have any concerns about survival because I will probably be vaporized into radioactive molecules. However, millions of people would survive a nuclear exchange, and for those people, survival preparations would be extremely important.


Nuke war is not the only consideration, by far. It's just the worst one. There are a bunch of books on these subjects. One of the best is called "Life After Doomsday," by Bruce D. Clayton, Ph.D. It's about what to do in a real nuclear war and it's aftermath, and how to REALISTICALLY prepare for it. Since the nation is at war, it might not be a bad idea to read it.


Ownership of things like Geiger counters, gas masks and NBC suits may be a little extreme, but you won't think so if TSHTF.

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On that note KaBar, whats a good spot for geiger counters?

I found some at a website and the low end models are $249

gas masks? what do you recommend? I've seen new in box/bag nato gas masks for around $50 but the thing i dont like is the two eye holes, it seems like it could possibly obstruct vision somewhat.


Also so people dont get it twisted about the firearms, the section 922r deal still applies, so you still have to have a certain number of US made parts on your gun otherwise you could have a problem if the atf/police ever decide to take a look at it.

It seems to me that it would almost be better to purchase a VEPR rifle than a NHM91 as you can get those with folding stocks and such, and they are manufactured on the RPK reciever. I've never fired one but I patronize gun forums on the net and i've heard nothing but good reviews about them, they go for about $500 and you can get them with 20 inch or 16 inch barrels. and they are chambered in .223, 7.62x39 or 7.62 NATO and they are going to come out with hi cap mags for the 7.62NATO (or so theys say)

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Kabar there is no way we can track all of the subs in the world. We can barely keep track of one, let alone all of them. A sonar that big might as well be a sonic weapon. Fortunately for us the Russian subs were always big and noisy... but once the engines are cut and they cease cavitating it's like disappearing. The Japanese are making the most advanced subs in the world right now, far more quiet than our own pride and joy. And their sub manufacturing is a business, because until recently they have not had a standing army. So these superstealthsubs are out there. There's already been several instances where we have detected a foreign sub right along our coastline not knowing how long they were there and what kind of intelligence or preparations they were making.

And blindly lashing out at the usual suspects is certain to set off MAD.

Nuclear war may be the most devastating, but I also think it's the least likely scenario for WTSHTF. I'm one of those people who think the world will end "not with a bang, but with a whimper".


I read somewhere that potassium iodide will slow your thyroid gland and consequently slow the effects of radiation poisoning. I thought about getting some but I figured if I was already exposed to that much radiation I may as well do myself in.


But again, I don't see that as a likely scenario. More likely is the resource wars/shortages I've brought up before. Environmental collapse is also a possibility as well. The oceans absorb the vast majority of our carbon emissions and the pH levels are inching their way towards acidity. Imagine if the oceans became acid. Not to mention that we have the highest levels of carbon in the atmosphere in all known history going back some 400,000 years. (Scientists find pockets of atmosphere from ancient times trapped in glaciers and such).

Society is more interdependent than ever.

Time to exercise some independence.

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