Obama: The New George Bush

[angelofdeath]

soaker summed it up pretty good.

but i'll make a few more comments.

 

I think the ultimate goal is probably still to bring them all home, but he can't (and shouldn't) just snap his fingers and make that happen immediately. He inherited a mess in Iraq and Afghanistan, and I don't think he wants to do anything rash to fuck the region up even more by pulling out and leaving a power vacuum.

 

people inherit messes all the time. obama has it well within his grasps to be instituting policies to end the overseas occupations of these countries. he campaigned on it. one of his main constitutional functions as president is to be commander in chief of the armed forces. end of story.

we are fucking up the region by being over there! this is the stated reasons of the terrorists that attacked our country on 9/11. what would we be doing if china, north korea and russia had military bases in canada, mexico, oklahoma, florida and washington state? this is the problem. blowback. reaction to our intervention in the middle east they hate us for it.

 

we are causing more problems being over there than if we withdraw right now. if the policy is bad, atleast try to attempt about thinking about ending it. obama's overall stance is the same as any mainstream republican or democrat. US intervention in to areas we shouldnt be in. whether its fighting a 'symptom' called terrorism in 'stan, in iraq, or going on humanitarian missions that the democrats favor. it is all needless, senseless foreign intervention that the founding generation so warned us about. beware of entangling alliances.

 

to blame the war solely on bush is stupid. a democratic congress gave bush authorization, though not a declaration of war, to take action over seas in iraq and 'stan. when ron paul suggested that perhaps maybe we ought to think about putting up a declaration of war to a vote... he was laughed at. but this is what is supposed to be done... constitutionally speaking. we havent declared war since WW2. and look. we are still fighting the korean war today!

 

Well do you really want a president who simply does things because he can? You're just saying he has the power to do some things YOU want him to do, and doesn't. Good for him, I'm glad he doesn't take rash, unilateral action on issues. He should take other perspectives into account and weigh the pros and cons, since his decisions are very important, and we don't live in a dictatorship. Remember the Ents...

 

first off, if we are engaged in an unconstitutional war, ending it, is not irrational. i dont want a president doing things outside of his constitutional mandates. hell, i think america would be better off with out a president, and if we still had the articles of confederation. the constitution is a gigantic failure in restraining the central government. what i am saying is, if you campaign on bringing home our boys over seas, you dont sent 50K more over there, as well as replace troops in iraq with contractors. im just saying, just like a typical leftist (not to exclude the hypocritical righty, but we are talking about obama here)he says one thing and does another.

 

the anti war leftist base that elected obama, should be holding his feet to the fire about this war. i even heard that crazy anti war group is now 100% behind obama's war, but when bush was fighting the war, they were against it. why the double standard. democrats like democrat wars and republicans like republican wars.

 

I agree that the entire war on drugs should end. But I understand it would be a hugely controversial and probably unpopular decision. Ending federal prosecution of medical marijuana was a long time coming. But our government acts slowly, and other drugs are still a much thornier issue.

 

its a shame that following the constitution is hugely controversial.

but you are right. it is hugely controversial, which is why it should of never been federalized in the first place. then there wouldnt be a central authority unconstitutionally trying to run the lives of 300 million people and what plant substances they can and cannot possess or consume. the 9th and 10th amendment state that all powers not delegated to the federal government in the body of the constitution are rights reserved to the people and the states. last time i checked, there wasnt any thing in the enumerated powers that say the US is supposed to have a federal police force regulating drugs and arresting people who have certain plants that the government doesnt like.

 

if the constitution were followed each state and/or locality would decide the fate of its citizens. the states that had no drug laws, would attract the druggies and the states with anti abortion laws would attract the christians. no need for a central authority to plan the lives of 300 million diverse people in america.

 

Remember, Bush started both wars. Obama inherited a very delicate situation. HUGE difference there.

 

considering most democrats authorized the iraq war ('voted for it before they were against it,' remember) and supported the patriot act and other infringements on our liberty. it just so happened bush was in office when this all went down. obama may of inherited a war, but obama has it within his power, to literally at the snap of his finger, to bring the troops home tomorrow. yet he is increasing fighting forces. so much for that 'change.'

 

Well you're bringing a whole suite of preconceived notions to the table here that I can't even begin to address. I'm tempted to say this echoes Fox News, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

 

obama is a socialist. bush is a socialist.

 

as FA hayek pointed out... socialism in the US means not just governments attempting to take over the means of production, it means egalitarianism at any cost. this means a progressive heavy income tax on the rich productive classes, to redistribute lower non productive classes. vast restrictions on individual freedoms, especially gun ownership. best not to allow the 'enemies of the revolution' have any means to attempt to keep their liberty in tact. it means intervention in the freedom of the market place to attempt to centrally plan the entire economy. socialism lost the calculation debate a long time ago. the great socialist experiment that was the USSR, went belly up. Mises showed how socialism always must fail, and he was proven right. keynes has been discredited in more ways than one can count, yet his ideology rules most economists and government advisors.

 

i could care less what a corporate media network has to say, although i must admit i'd rather watch judge napolitano on fox, than anyone else on any other network.

[lord_casek]

Obama admits delay on Guantanamo

 

US President Barack Obama has for the first time admitted that the US will miss the January 2010 deadline he set for closing the Guantanamo Bay prison.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8366376.stm

[angelofdeath]

^^ but, but, buuuut...dooood. he closed it already.

[lord_casek]

Sooflies! It reopened!

 

I keep thinking about those furniture store commercials

where the store is "going out of business" continuously

for years on end.

[SOAKER]

HA! I just saw one of those stores down the street. For the whole year they had this going out of business sales, then yesterday they had some grand opening event...

 

Add Guantanamo to the list of "executive orders" that have been broken.

 

Good summation AOD. The government is delusional, thinking that they are in control of the economy, the drug trade, and even other nations. In his interview Obama suggested how he was to credit for the economic recovery, which is a complete lie, and that job growth will pick up because of the great job he is doing. Basically patting himself on the back fo shit that is not happening. Sadly there are those that believe this guys propaganda...

[SOAKER]

[MoonsOfSulkendastron]

In his interview Obama suggested how he was to credit for the economic recovery, which is a complete lie, and that job growth will pick up because of the great job he is doing. Basically patting himself on the back fo shit that is not happening. Sadly there are those that believe this guys propaganda...

 

..luckily more and more people are catching on that this fool (and administration)is incredibly radical. He spent more in his first two months in office than Bush did in both of his entire two terms! I dont think the 'bamster knows just what the eff he's doing to the economy...SIKE! He loves seeing the economy America fail. He hates it. Plus he's sending half of the jobs overseas anyway with his wack tax plan.

 

You cats should check this ish out again:

[angelofdeath]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LsSppYxSHk

 

obama lied and people died.

'you can take that to the bank.'

[SOAKER]

[Ages831]

holy fuck

 

 

 

 

we all should just stop paying taxes

everyone

 

 

that'll show em

 

im down with that hahah i save bout 9 grand a year but dont we still pay taxes when we buy food and shit.

[Decyferon]

Mainframe: I've said it before, and I will say it again: Afghanistan is for the opium. Our troops are guarding the fields. Before the "invasion", the Taliban had virtually stopped the trade....now it's quadrupled.

 

Something like 90% estimated....

 

The CIA has always loved being involved in the drug trade, this is no different.

 

Plus they will be using military planes to ship the drugs back, like I said before a lot of UK troops are bringing heroin back with them as they don't have customs etc and selling it on to dealers and making good money.

[abcs]

you kno. Government spending is about 43% of the american gross domestic product.

That shit is bananas. Any way you cut it that doesn't work. And the govt is running so high a debt. So basically close to half of out gdp is based on the gvt spending money it doesn't even have. Am i missing something here?

Because of where i live my entire adult life has been in recession. Sooner or later this is all going to come crashing down.

[Decyferon]

a lot of governments are propping up economies that are on shaky ground, they have taken on far too much but have done too much to admit their mistake and turn back the spending, the UK government is fucked up in debt and they continue to waste tax payers money

[lord_casek]

My suggestion: Start buying seeds. Veggies. Stuff you can can (jar) and freeze. It won't cure all of your woes, but it will certainly help when you need it. I think pretty soon, we'll need all the help we can get.

 

Decyferon: Seen "The great white hope" yet?

[Decyferon]

no can't say I have Casek, unless it is something I watched when I used to drink and can no longer remember seeing it

[lord_casek]

no can't say I have Casek, unless it is something I watched when I used to drink and can no longer remember seeing it

 

 

Sorry, it's "the last white hope"

 

 

There's the whole thing. Check it out.

[lord_casek]

Health Care Reform

Support for Health Care Plan Falls to New Low

 

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/september_2009/health_care_reform

[SOAKER]

Yea well the bureaucrats in Washington don't worry about what the people want, they know whats best and set their own agenda, based on what ever corrupt ass bullshit they have going on. More taxes, more control. What they need to do is cut the cost of medical care. I sure as well would like insurance to be cheaper and medical care not cost so damn much but not at the cost of raising taxes and making insurance mandatory, punishable with fines. We already pay social security and medicare, why would they impose more taxes if we already have a mandatory medical related tax? So were going to create more taxes and waste more money and fund all kinds of shit that we don't need. The government can't be all things to all people all over the fucking world. Hopefully they amend the bill and make some changes, especially the part about fines.

[SOAKER]

[LEVEL 75 PALADIN]

 

Soaker

[ILOTSMYBRAIN]

So after sending 30,000 plus troops into Afgahnistan and "staying the course". Can we at least get some sort of support for Obama doing what the few of us here knew he would.

 

I mean Mike Lupica in the Daily News at least had the common sense to see the comparison.

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2009/11/30/2009-11-30_so_when_did_hope__change_become_bush_iii.html

[angelofdeath]

but... but.... but...........

he inherited it!

[Mainframe]

^Hold your horses chicken little. The situation is still not (and never will be) as black and white as "the few" people in here want it to be. In Obama's defense: who knows more about the situation in Afghanistan, who actually speaks to the military officials in command there as well as Afghan representatives? Is it you, or the president?...It's one thing to be critical of the president's decisions, another to get on a self-righteous high horse about it. People are allowed to change their mind when presented with compelling information/arguments.

 

Edit: someone is probably going to say something sarcastic like "so if Obama has access to all this information, then everything he does must be right and we should all blindly abide by his decisions!" No, I don't believe anything like that, I'm just trying to give some perspective that is sorely lacking in here.

[angelofdeath]

^^ my problem with this line of thought....

 

everyone here licking obama's boots and worshipping him, defending him no matter what he does.... what if mad bomber mccain or bush were in office right now. what if the 'military officials in command' tell mccain or bush that we need to stay in there for 100 years? would you still support this? would you still say the same thing? that the officials have the intelligence needed so they are obviously doing what is right. stated simply, why are republicans evil if they engage in and continue war and why are democrats given the nobel peace prize as great anti war-riors for doing the exact same thing.

 

not to mention the huge fact that is glossed over. this is an illegal unconstitutional war. it is undeclared. bush and obama have no right to use 'military tribunals' legally, because there is no declared war. if you are engaged in an illegal undeclared war that you campaigned on bringing to an end, why are you increasing troops and continuing it? to busy protecting drug fields in 'stan i guess.

 

this further illustrates that there is not a dimes worth of difference between the two parties, if you'll allow me to quote once staunch segregationist george wallace who later was governor with 90% of the black vote.

[nsmbfan]

pointless argument thread is pointless.

 

politicians lie and pander.

[ILOTSMYBRAIN]

^Hold your horses chicken little. The situation is still not (and never will be) as black and white as "the few" people in here want it to be. In Obama's defense: who knows more about the situation in Afghanistan, who actually speaks to the military officials in command there as well as Afghan representatives? Is it you, or the president?...It's one thing to be critical of the president's decisions, another to get on a self-righteous high horse about it. People are allowed to change their mind when presented with compelling information/arguments.

 

Edit: someone is probably going to say something sarcastic like "so if Obama has access to all this information, then everything he does must be right and we should all blindly abide by his decisions!" No, I don't believe anything like that, I'm just trying to give some perspective that is sorely lacking in here.

 

 

So your saying the comparison isn't warranted?

 

Your perspective is apparently no more correct than mine. So...who's on what kind of horse now?

[fastZeetec302]

oh well, atleast hes pulling all the troops out of the middle east like he said when he was running... ohhhhh wait never mind.

[Mainframe]

So your saying the comparison isn't warranted?

 

That's right.

 

Your perspective is apparently no more correct than mine. So...who's on what kind of horse now?

 

What's my perspective, pray tell? I think that we should all take our own opinions on the war with a grain of salt. I'm not the one accusing Obama of being a lying, socialist, warmongering stooge. Accusations like that probably demonstrate more about your psychological disposition than the reality of the situation. I'm defending him for the sake of balanced argument, not because I have my head up his ass.

[lord_casek]

I hate Michael Moore and his gushing over Obama, but I do respect parts of this letter.

 

An Open Letter to President Obama from Michael Moore

 

Dear President Obama,

 

Do you really want to be the new "war president"? If you go to West Point tomorrow night (Tuesday, 8pm) and announce that you are increasing, rather than withdrawing, the troops in Afghanistan, you are the new war president. Pure and simple. And with that you will do the worst possible thing you could do -- destroy the hopes and dreams so many millions have placed in you. With just one speech tomorrow night you will turn a multitude of young people who were the backbone of your campaign into disillusioned cynics. You will teach them what they've always heard is true -- that all politicians are alike. I simply can't believe you're about to do what they say you are going to do. Please say it isn't so.

 

It is not your job to do what the generals tell you to do. We are a civilian-run government. WE tell the Joint Chiefs what to do, not the other way around. That's the way General Washington insisted it must be. That's what President Truman told General MacArthur when MacArthur wanted to invade China. "You're fired!," said Truman, and that was that. And you should have fired Gen. McChrystal when he went to the press to preempt you, telling the press what YOU had to do. Let me be blunt: We love our kids in the armed services, but we f*#&in' hate these generals, from Westmoreland in Vietnam to, yes, even Colin Powell for lying to the UN with his made-up drawings of WMD (he has since sought redemption).

 

So now you feel backed into a corner. 30 years ago this past Thursday (Thanksgiving) the Soviet generals had a cool idea -- "Let's invade Afghanistan!" Well, that turned out to be the final nail in the USSR coffin.

 

There's a reason they don't call Afghanistan the "Garden State" (though they probably should, seeing how the corrupt President Karzai, whom we back, has his brother in the heroin trade raising poppies). Afghanistan's nickname is the "Graveyard of Empires." If you don't believe it, give the British a call. I'd have you call Genghis Khan but I lost his number. I do have Gorbachev's number though. It's + 41 22 789 1662. I'm sure he could give you an earful about the historic blunder you're about to commit.

 

With our economic collapse still in full swing and our precious young men and women being sacrificed on the altar of arrogance and greed, the breakdown of this great civilization we call America will head, full throttle, into oblivion if you become the "war president." Empires never think the end is near, until the end is here. Empires think that more evil will force the heathens to toe the line -- and yet it never works. The heathens usually tear them to shreds.

 

Choose carefully, President Obama. You of all people know that it doesn't have to be this way. You still have a few hours to listen to your heart, and your own clear thinking. You know that nothing good can come from sending more troops halfway around the world to a place neither you nor they understand, to achieve an objective that neither you nor they understand, in a country that does not want us there. You can feel it in your bones.

 

I know you know that there are LESS than a hundred al-Qaeda left in Afghanistan! A hundred thousand troops trying to crush a hundred guys living in caves? Are you serious? Have you drunk Bush's Kool-Aid? I refuse to believe it.

 

Your potential decision to expand the war (while saying that you're doing it so you can "end the war") will do more to set your legacy in stone than any of the great things you've said and done in your first year. One more throwing a bone from you to the Republicans and the coalition of the hopeful and the hopeless may be gone -- and this nation will be back in the hands of the haters quicker than you can shout "tea bag!"

 

Choose carefully, Mr. President. Your corporate backers are going to abandon you as soon as it is clear you are a one-term president and that the nation will be safely back in the hands of the usual idiots who do their bidding. That could be Wednesday morning.

 

We the people still love you. We the people still have a sliver of hope. But we the people can't take it anymore. We can't take your caving in, over and over, when we elected you by a big, wide margin of millions to get in there and get the job done. What part of "landslide victory" don't you understand?

 

Don't be deceived into thinking that sending a few more troops into Afghanistan will make a difference, or earn you the respect of the haters. They will not stop until this country is torn asunder and every last dollar is extracted from the poor and soon-to-be poor. You could send a million troops over there and the crazy Right still wouldn't be happy. You would still be the victim of their incessant venom on hate radio and television because no matter what you do, you can't change the one thing about yourself that sends them over the edge.

 

The haters were not the ones who elected you, and they can't be won over by abandoning the rest of us.

 

President Obama, it's time to come home. Ask your neighbors in Chicago and the parents of the young men and women doing the fighting and dying if they want more billions and more troops sent to Afghanistan. Do you think they will say, "No, we don't need health care, we don't need jobs, we don't need homes. You go on ahead, Mr. President, and send our wealth and our sons and daughters overseas, 'cause we don't need them, either."

 

What would Martin Luther King, Jr. do? What would your grandmother do? Not send more poor people to kill other poor people who pose no threat to them, that's what they'd do. Not spend billions and trillions to wage war while American children are sleeping on the streets and standing in bread lines.

 

All of us that voted and prayed for you and cried the night of your victory have endured an Orwellian hell of eight years of crimes committed in our name: torture, rendition, suspension of the bill of rights, invading nations who had not attacked us, blowing up neighborhoods that Saddam "might" be in (but never was), slaughtering wedding parties in Afghanistan. We watched as hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians were slaughtered and tens of thousands of our brave young men and women were killed, maimed, or endured mental anguish -- the full terror of which we scarcely know.

 

When we elected you we didn't expect miracles. We didn't even expect much change. But we expected some. We thought you would stop the madness. Stop the killing. Stop the insane idea that men with guns can reorganize a nation that doesn't even function as a nation and never, ever has.

 

Stop, stop, stop! For the sake of the lives of young Americans and Afghan civilians, stop. For the sake of your presidency, hope, and the future of our nation, stop. For God's sake, stop.

 

Tonight we still have hope.

 

Tomorrow, we shall see. The ball is in your court. You DON'T have to do this. You can be a profile in courage. You can be your mother's son.

 

We're counting on you.

 

Yours,

Michael Moore

 

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/mikes-letter/open-letter-president-obama-michael-moore

[Mainframe]

^^ my problem with this line of thought....

 

everyone here licking obama's boots and worshipping him, defending him no matter what he does.... what if mad bomber mccain or bush were in office right now. what if the 'military officials in command' tell mccain or bush that we need to stay in there for 100 years? would you still support this? would you still say the same thing? that the officials have the intelligence needed so they are obviously doing what is right. stated simply, why are republicans evil if they engage in and continue war and why are democrats given the nobel peace prize as great anti war-riors for doing the exact same thing.

 

Stop trying to polarize the discussion. I've said it a million times, I'm not a rabid obamaphile, if anything I approach politics as an academic exercise; to me it's not "let me argue for what I believe in," it's "let me determine what is going on in the world and how it's going down." I'm defending Obama from unfair, premature attacks made in here that are very obviously based on preconceived notions and unrealistic ideals. Instead of having a thread full of cliche "rah rah rah fuck Obama, politicians lie bro smoke more weed fuck the government" bullshit, I've tried to steer debate toward this little thing called 'nuance." Here:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nuance

 

I don't discriminate, white republican presidents can make good and bad decisions too. I don't think Bush was a bad person or even necessarily a total "liar." I do think he was unfit for the position, but most people are. If anyone said we need to stay in Afghanistan for 100 years I would disagree with that. That is pretty obvious. Obama says his plan is to increase troops in order to get the thing done and finally be able to pull them out. I probably would have supported withdrawal, but it seemed to be a choice between total withdrawal and massive buildup, so let's see if this works. Also, as I've said before, starting two wars is completely different than what Obama is doing. He inherited the situation. Cutting the cord would entail a LOT more problems than you seem to realize. On the other hand, it might end up being the lesser of two evils. I don't think he deserved the Nobel Peace prize, but I don't think it means all that much.

 

not to mention the huge fact that is glossed over. this is an illegal unconstitutional war. it is undeclared. bush and obama have no right to use 'military tribunals' legally, because there is no declared war. if you are engaged in an illegal undeclared war that you campaigned on bringing to an end, why are you increasing troops and continuing it? to busy protecting drug fields in 'stan i guess.

 

I can't say I "believe" in the constitution. All I know is that the war IS going on, and Obama has a responsibility to handle it in a globally responsible fashion. Will he succeed? Maybe. He might even fail massively, but I don't necessarily think the sky is falling. Also, he campaigned on ending the wars responsibly, not immediately. He said Afghanistan was a war worth fighting during his campaign. I'm not sure about that, but we'll see whether it turns into a slog or finally wraps up. I'm not going to even respond to the drug fields comment until I see some real, reasonably unbiased information supporting it.