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hypergraphia

Gunmen open fire in Jerusalem Jewish seminary

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Gunmen open fire in Jerusalem Jewish seminary

 

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/03/06/mideast/index.html

 

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- Several people were killed Thursday in what Israeli police are calling a "severe terrorist attack" at a Jewish seminary in Jerusalem.

 

Video from the scene showed a frantic crowd of rescue workers carrying bloodied victims into ambulances. Dozens of police officers were scouring the campus and surrounding streets.

 

Police spokesman Mickey Rosenfeld said: "They opened fire on innocent youngsters studying. A number of students have been killed.

 

"We are still searching the building for the possibility of a second terrorist still in the building." VideoWatch the immediate aftermath of the attack »

 

CNN's Ben Wedeman in Gaza reported celebratory shooting shortly after the attack.

 

An ambulance spokesman told CNN eight people died in the attack. A police spokesman said one attacker was dead. It was not immediately clear if the dead attacker was included in the casualty figures put out by the ambulance service.

 

In the minutes after the attack the reported number of wounded varied from six to 35.

 

The attack comes in the wake of a large-scale Israeli offensive in Gaza that began last week and killed more than 100 people.

 

The military wing of Islamic Jihad said it killed an Israeli soldier and wounded three others in what it called a revenge attack.

 

The Israeli military confirmed the casualties, saying the soldiers were on patrol along the Gaza border on Thursday morning when a roadside bomb exploded.

 

Islamic Jihad said the attack was in revenge for the death earlier this week of one of its senior leaders. Israel said two other militants were also killed in Tuesday night's incursion into Gaza, near Khan Yunis.

 

In a separate attack, one person was injured when a rocket struck a home in the Gaza town of Sderot, Israeli ambulance officials said.

 

Israel has staged a series of military operations into Gaza over the last week in an attempt to stop Palestinian militants from firing rockets from the Palestinian territory into Israel.

 

More than 100 Palestinians have died during the operations. Two Israeli soldiers were also killed.

 

Witnesses said explosions rocked a border area east of the Gaza village of Garara, setting an Israeli army jeep on fire. Israeli troops, on the lookout for attackers, regularly patrol the border.

 

Separately, the Israeli military confirmed an airstrike on armed militants in northern Gaza.

 

The violence came a day after Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas said he will heed calls to renew peace talks with Israel, an about-face from earlier on Wednesday when he said Palestinians wouldn't return to the table before reaching a cease-fire.

 

The turnaround came as U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice met with Israeli leaders in Jerusalem, and as the Israeli Security Cabinet approved further military action against Hamas and other militants launching rockets into Israel from Gaza.

 

art.shooting.isreali.tv.jpg

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I posted a similar article in the Hezbollah thread, apparently the Palestinians celebrated the murder of the high school children, and Hamas condoned the massacre.

 

I talked to my friends, they are okay, I haven't heard back from my brother yet...

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My brothers okay, he said he's going to try to go to the school in Jerusalem to pray tomorrow.

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shits fucked up it's a pity both sides are too pathetic to stay away from killing eachother's children

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I have no idea but the Israeli public is tired of it.

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I have no idea but the Israeli public is tired of it.

 

Oh are they? The poor plight of the Israeli citizens...

 

29.9.2000-31.1.2008

 

Occupied Territories / Israel

 

Palestinians killed by Israeli security forces 4419 / 66

Israeli civilians killed by Palestinians 234 / 471

Israeli security force personnel killed by Palestinians 239 / 87

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The Palestinians are not free from guilt themselves though. Hamas is probably one of the biggest problems in the whole issue.

 

I have to read about this sort of shit everyday. Makes me want to just jump off a bridge sometimes.

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Oh are they? The poor plight of the Israeli citizens...

 

29.9.2000-31.1.2008

 

Occupied Territories / Israel

 

Palestinians killed by Israeli security forces 4419 / 66

Israeli civilians killed by Palestinians 234 / 471

Israeli security force personnel killed by Palestinians 239 / 87

 

Occupied territories is such a bullshit, Palestinian propaganda term and it sickens me that the world is so uneducated that they would gobble it up. The land is part of Israel there is nothing that made it distinctly Palestinian, even the term Palestinian is made up, and since '45 their claim to the land is moot. They don't live in "camps" Ive been to Gaza, they live in apartments. Their houses do get bulldozed, but thats because they didnt follow the laws of the land they are living in (guess what? it happens to Israelis too!) or because they are using them to smuggle in weapons. Any other inaccuracies I can clear up?

 

I also question the validity of those numbers. Not only is the Palestinian media and government notorious for inflating casualties and causing them themselves (and blaming Israel), the way that the numbers are sectioned, there is no distinction between Palestinian militants and civilians, making the numbers less poignant.

 

Even so, ironically, you jumped to conclusions and totally missed what I was saying. What I was referring to are polls taken showing that Israelis are in favor of giving the Palestinians land if it ensures peace.

 

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

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Occupied territories is such a bullshit, Palestinian propaganda term and it sickens me that the world is so uneducated that they would gobble it up.

 

Yeah ok Dershowitz

 

I give you two lols for this bit

 

The land is part of Israel there is nothing that made it distinctly Palestinian, even the term Palestinian is made up,

 

I give this one two lols as well.

 

and since '45 their claim to the land is moot. They don't live in "camps" Ive been to Gaza, they live in apartments. Their houses do get bulldozed, but thats because they didnt follow the laws of the land they are living in (guess what? it happens to Israelis too!) or because they are using them to smuggle in weapons. Any other inaccuracies I can clear up?

 

While you are living in a fairy tale maybe you can give me some more lols and explain away the part where the IDF murder people with US missles

 

I also question the validity of those numbers. Not only is the Palestinian media and government notorious for inflating casualties and causing them themselves (and blaming Israel), the way that the numbers are sectioned, there is no distinction between Palestinian militants and civilians, making the numbers less poignant.

 

http://www.btselem.org/English/

 

Even so, ironically, you jumped to conclusions and totally missed what I was saying. What I was referring to are polls taken showing that Israelis are in favor of giving the Palestinians land if it ensures peace.

 

You mean like every single other person in the entire world for the last 30 years minus the Israeli and US governments?

 

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

 

'Pipe and smoke it' is an Israeli propaganda term and it sickens me!

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Yeah ok Dershowitz

I couldn't be more flattered

 

 

While you are living in a fairy tale maybe you can give me some more lols and explain away the part where the IDF murder people with US missles
I think by murder you mean defend? What about the 506 Quasam and Grad rockets that the Palestinians have randomly fired into Israel, in the past 3 months, with purely the intent to kill innocent people?

 

B'tellem has come under fire by numerous non-Israeli organizations for their statistics.

 

You mean like every single other person in the entire world for the last 30 years minus the Israeli and US governments?
The point is they are a so tired of the violence that they are willing to give up land they care about, and to a people who could couldn't care less about them.

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MAR, I think you are far too generalising in the way you speak about the Palestinian people. Not all of them hate the Jews, not all of them want to destroy Israel. Many of them want peace and do not support the firing of the rockets. You also have to remember that many of the Palestinian families have been living their for generations and generations. Just because they didn't have a formed nation doesnt' mean they don't have a right to their land, freedom from having it taken from them and a sentimental and religious connection to it.

 

I see and acknowledge the connection the Israelites have and hope that an agreement can soon be found to stop the heartache. But you should be more careful in the manner that you discuss this issue because whilst I don't believe that you are one of the racist hardliners, you tend to come across as one when you speak like this.

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Oh are they? The poor plight of the Israeli citizens...

 

29.9.2000-31.1.2008

 

Occupied Territories / Israel

 

Palestinians killed by Israeli security forces 4419 / 66

Israeli civilians killed by Palestinians 234 / 471

Israeli security force personnel killed by Palestinians 239 / 87

 

Maybe its just me but whenever someone posts up the tally of the dead like it is the score of a game, I immediately think "DOUCHEBAG". It trivializes the deaths on both sides, and shows how detached from reality you are. What is your point, that if one side has less dead people that number is less important or not significant? When you basically show you dont give a fuck about the dead civilians on one side, your moral outrage for the deaths on the other side seems very ridiculous. I guess admitting its a fucked up situation all around, for everyone, is just too far of a leap for some folks.

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Maybe its just me but whenever someone posts up the tally of the dead like it is the score of a game, I immediately think "DOUCHEBAG". It trivializes the deaths on both sides, and shows how detached from reality you are. What is your point, that if one side has less dead people that number is less important or not significant? When you basically show you dont give a fuck about the dead civilians on one side, your moral outrage for the deaths on the other side seems very ridiculous. I guess admitting its a fucked up situation all around, for everyone, is just too far of a leap for some folks.

 

i don't wanna speak for dude, but i'd say it's not so much about 'trivializing' the deaths of these poor fuckers, it's to show there is absolutely no symmetry to the situation. the palestinians, whether they are justified or not, are outgunned in every facet of the conflict, something many pro-israeli people refuse to acknowledge because they are too busy strutting around like they are the only victims in this conflict. douchebaggery is heavily present on both sides of the argument, 'detached from reality' or not.

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I posted a similar article in the Hezbollah thread, apparently the Palestinians celebrated the murder of the high school children, and Hamas condoned the massacre.

 

I talked to my friends, they are okay, I haven't heard back from my brother yet...

 

yes and the Israelis celebrate the murder of Palestinian children all the time... And the Israeli government condones the action... Actually wait they order the action..

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I dont mean hes intentionally trivializing their deaths by posting the numbers like they are the score of a game, but thats exactly what it does. He is detached from reality because he doesn't get that, and apparently he doesnt get that they are more than numbers you can use to win an interweb argument.

 

there is absolutely no symmetry to the situation. the palestinians, whether they are justified or not, are outgunned in every facet of the conflict, something many pro-israeli people refuse to acknowledge because they are too busy strutting around like they are the only victims in this conflict. douchebaggery is heavily present on both sides of the argument, 'detached from reality' or not.

It is probably a minority who thinks that, Israel clearly has military superiority in a conventional sense. It isn't a conventional war so it isnt that simple, the Israelis don't have a large monolithic entity they can attack at their leisure and then disappear back into the populace. I'm not blindly defending israel because they arent free from blame in all of this, but if the military roles were reversed and hamas was in control of the airpower and nuclear weapons, do you think there would be any israelis left alive?

 

they are too busy strutting around like they are the only victims in this conflict.

Compared to the other side who's first automatic reaction is to downplay or deny all israeli casualties. You are right, douchebaggery abounds.

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Absolutely correct.

 

Much of the time Hamas are the aggressors. Now I'm not going to venture into whether their actions are justified but they are the ones continually firing rockets into civilian areas. bow they know they have no hope of winning and they know that Israel will fire back with a disproportional response, but that's one of the central strategies of terrorism; exact a disproportionate response from the stronger side to elicit sympathy and support for your cause. The Palestinians play this card all the time and Israel is trapped into responding this way.

 

If they respond disproportionately they kill as many enemy as possible and try to destroy their ability to use aggression. If they don't, they invite further attacks and risk their enemy becoming even more adventurous and causing harm. Success also invites support for a cause. So fuck it, Israel may as well cop the international flack and bad rep over it and try to destroy their capabilities as much as they can because it's better than the alternative!

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It is probably a minority who thinks that, Israel clearly has military superiority in a conventional sense. It isn't a conventional war so it isnt that simple, the Israelis don't have a large monolithic entity they can attack at their leisure and then disappear back into the populace. I'm not blindly defending israel because they arent free from blame in all of this, but if the military roles were reversed and hamas was in control of the airpower and nuclear weapons, do you think there would be any israelis left alive?

 

 

Compared to the other side who's first automatic reaction is to downplay or deny all israeli casualties. You are right, douchebaggery abounds.

 

stereotype, i'm not looking to get into a tiff over this, but i would like to point out a couple of things and leave it at that. while you say it isn't that simple on the one hand, you can't very well turn around with a speculative 'what if' and generalize that it is as simple as hamas killing every israeli, roles reversed. perhaps it would be fair for me to then turn around and say that, roles reversed, israeli's would commit heinous suicide bombings as well?

 

also, the lack of symmetry to the situation is hardly what i would call 'probably a minority view' and following that statement by acknowledging the clear military advantage seems a little contradictory. you seem to be playing down the fact israel has the upper hand with superior tools for usage of force, which is in no way a minor facet of the conflict since the perpetuation of the grievances on both sides revolves around the usage/misusage of brutal force.

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while you say it isn't that simple on the one hand, you can't very well turn around with a speculative 'what if' and generalize that it is as simple as hamas killing every israeli, roles reversed. perhaps it would be fair for me to then turn around and say that, roles reversed, israeli's would commit heinous suicide bombings as well?

I meant that the force ratio isn't so simple as the Israelis having more conventional power = they have the upper hand, I wasn't referring to the actions and motivations of either side as simple which I also don't think is simple. I'm not sure if the israelis would be using suicide bombings specifically, but they bloodied the brits when they were the insurgents fighting for their country. But I really would doubt there would be any israelis left alive in the first place to fight an insurgency if hamas had israel's military capabilities, maybe your opinion differs.

 

the lack of symmetry to the situation is hardly what i would call 'probably a minority view' and following that statement by acknowledging the clear military advantage seems a little contradictory. you seem to be playing down the fact israel has the upper hand with superior tools for usage of force, which is in no way a minor facet of the conflict since the perpetuation of the grievances on both sides revolves around the usage/misusage of brutal force.

I am probably misunderstanding you, I was responding to you saying that "most pro israelis refuse to acknowledge" the lack of symmetry.... I am sure the majority do. Israel is definitely the one with the overwhelming conventional military power, more bombs, planes, infantry, better training, arty, etc etc. A lack of symmetry is part of a terrorist/insurgent group attacking a country/govt/army or whatever, thats why they call it asymmetric warfare. My point is in any sort of counter insurgency a massive conventional military is more of a hindrance than an advantage. A large slow target that has few (if any) opportunities to go after the enemy....by its nature they are always responding to something, while the other side is smaller and much more flexible, agile, and able to do what they want. Israel can kill more people than hamas can and often do when provoked into fighting them, but that is to hamas' benefit more than israel's, christo's post summed it up. In that sense (unless they want to adopt the soviet "kill everyone and send the rest to siberia" counterinsurgency tactics) they are at a disadvantage in the long run. If you want an example of this, look at how long the Israelis have been unable to put down the insurgency despite their overwhelming military power.

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negotiate with iran and syria/lebanon. right now for them, there is incentive for the palestine situation to continue, because it forces the intl community to issue concessions, and to continue to need to have contact with them, as opposed to merely ostracizing other dictatorships like burma. additionally, if there is advocacy of negotiations from both sides, it is much more likely that hamas will find an acceptable platform of negotiations, however it is going to take some remarkable compromise between israel and hamas considering the issue of israel's recognition. even negotiating a prisoner swap in exchange for israeli soldiers, that would be a good faith-building venture between iran via hizballah/hamas and us/israel.

 

someone from the PA needs to step up, in a very big way. i think there is a perceptioin that abbas is a puppet in the face of hamas opposition (a classic case how conflict empowers more extremist groups by the polarization of the conflict). they have lost a lot of legitimacy in the past year, and i think they need to respond aggresively by making their political platform more activist. and the PA now needs to become more extreme to keep popular support. moreover, in doing so, it will still find a middle ground between the abbas-ites and hamas-inclined political groups, thereby empowering the Abbas camp at least more than pure hamas control.

 

i think that there is a possibility of a rapid escalation of violence as the prologue of peace negotiations. its a strong strategy that really elevates the diplomatic leverage of the palestinians, making it a more level playing field. in a way, violent conflict may be the only solution to maybe THE stickiest issue, that if jewish settlements in the west bank. if the palestinians can make life truly unliveable for those territories, and the people are forced to evacuate, theoretically it would be a different situation than israel being forced to evacuate settlements as a result of negotiations (something that is probably politically impossible for any israeli politician).

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MAR, I think you are far too generalising in the way you speak about the Palestinian people. Not all of them hate the Jews, not all of them want to destroy Israel. Many of them want peace and do not support the firing of the rockets. You also have to remember that many of the Palestinian families have been living their for generations and generations. Just because they didn't have a formed nation doesnt' mean they don't have a right to their land, freedom from having it taken from them and a sentimental and religious connection to it.

 

I see and acknowledge the connection the Israelites have and hope that an agreement can soon be found to stop the heartache. But you should be more careful in the manner that you discuss this issue because whilst I don't believe that you are one of the racist hardliners, you tend to come across as one when you speak like this.

 

As you said, Im not a hardliner, I don't generalize the individual, I am merely referring to the controlling powers in the Palestinian government. Even Abbas, in his seeming moderate views has a very anti-Israel past, I only trust him so much. Look, I'd love to see peace as much as the next guy, but I dont think a two state solution makes any sense, nor do I feel that the Palestinians have anything to gain from it.

 

Im fact, if we have learned anything in the past 6 months, they have everything to lose. Even more so now that Egypt has started building a wall to keep the Palestinians from swarming into Egypt again.

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Palestinians have it rough.

They have no nation, no citizenship, and no ultimate power over their own lives.

 

Since 1967, when Israel conquered these areas , Palestinians have been living under Israeli military occupation. While in some parts Israel has allowed a Palestinian entity to take on such municipal functions as education, health care, infrastructure and policing, Israel remains in power ultimately.

 

According to international law, an occupying force is responsible for the protection of the civilian population living under its control. Israel, however, ignores this requirement, routinely committing violations of the Geneva Conventions, a set of principles instituted after World War II to ensure that civilians would “never again” suffer as they had under Nazi occupation. Israel is one of the leading violators of these conventions today.

 

Israeli forces regularly confiscate private land; imprison individuals without process – including children – and physically abuse them under incarceration; demolish family homes; bulldoze orchards and crops; place entire towns under curfew; destroy shops and businesses; shoot, maim, and kill civilians – and Palestinians are without power to stop any of it.

 

When a child is arrested, for example – often by a group of armed soldiers in the middle of the night – parents can do nothing. Knowing that their son is most likely being beaten by soldiers on the way to the station, stripped and humiliated in prison, quite likely physically abused in multiple additional ways, and destined to be held – perhaps in isolation – for days, week, or months (all before a trial has even taken place), parents are without the ability to protect their child. Often, in fact, they can't even visit him.

 

Finally, when the military trial under which their son is to be sentenced – often to years (sometimes decades) in prison – all they can do is hire a lawyer whose efforts, at best, will reduce the ultimate sentence by a few months. Rarely, if ever, can even the most skilled lawyer do more than afford the child a friendly face in court and be an outside witness to the injustice of the proceedings. Meanwhile, the presence of such a lawyer provides Israel cover for its “judicial system.”

 

Perhaps most significant – and rarely understood by people in the outside world – is the fact that Palestinians live, basically, in a prison in which Israel holds the keys.

 

They cannot leave Gaza or the West Bank unless Israeli guards allow them to. If they have been allowed out, they cannot return to their homes and families unless Israeli guards permit it.

 

Frequently, in both cases, Israel refuses such permission.

 

Academics invited to attend conferences abroad, high school students given US State Department scholarships to study in the United States, mothers wishing to visit daughters abroad, American citizens returning to their families, humanitarians bringing wheelchairs – the list goes on almost without limit – have all been denied permission by Israel to leave or enter their own land.

 

I can't say for sure if I were living under their conditions that I wouldn't be tossing missiles at Jews too.

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I know Palestine isn't a state, but they don't exactly live by the spirit of the Geneva Convention either when they blow up Discos, Pizza Parlours, throw rockets into town that kill small children, blow up buses, etc. Now I understand what you've said and that they live in terrible conditions and have it tough. But organisations like Hamas are much more part of the problem than they are the solution.

 

Only until both sides recognise that they add to the problem can the situation improve. Until then, all we have is the continuing spiral.

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^ I was going to say...with all the emphasis of prisoners being beaten on their way to an israeli prison, assuming thats even factual that sure as fuck beats getting killed within the first 24 hours (if you're lucky), or getting a combination of torture and rape for months and years in some guys basement.

 

Dawood, with the same mentality israelis can also write overly dramatic pieces of propaganda (although they will never come close to the power of the palestinian propaganda machine) justifying the military response to terrorist attacks, and it goes on and on. In case you don't know, the people launching rockets and blowing themselves up and shooting civilians aren't doing so because they want to make life better for palestinians..... they know they have no chance of eventually defeating israel using these tactics, and they know all they are doing is creating a continual state of war and shittiness for everyone. Thats the point. The purpose of people launching rockets from a densely populated area is to force the israelis to respond, which will result in palestinian civilians killed. The purpose of suicide bombings is forcing the Israelis to try and prevent them... which they can only do by trying to stop them from getting into israel, which means pretty draconian measures like separating the palestinian communities, checkpoints to try to intercept suicide bombers, not allowing some people into israel at all, killing the leaders of groups (who make a point of surrounding themselves with children for exactly this reason, not just in palestine but everywhere in the middle east), etc. So then they can point at the alienation of palestinians and say "here is proof that the jews are evil, so you should go kill them." If this is just racism or something from the evil jews, how do you explain the 20% or so of the Israeli population that are arabs and live there without problems?

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