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mamerro was right: news from venezuela


lord_casek

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plus i'm so sick of peopel in this thread saying that if your anti-chavez your automatically "not of the right demographics." what the fuck type of shit is that (again, besides being fascist). dude just gave a bunch of coherent arguments about why chavez ain't all that, and you come at him like, "your probably not from the right demographics, b/c OBVIOUSLY if people are poor they HAVE to support chavez." what is that?

 

i don't think you know what your talking about as much as youd like to think yum. chavez hasn't made much progress in alleviating poverty (even you would accept that, though you blame america spain etc.), so what does he do? what every other semi-authoritarian/authoritarian leader does. EXTERNALIZATION. Thats why Argentina invaded the Falklands. It's why Saddam invaded Kuwait (the saudis told chavez to shut up this weekend, they got experience with power crazed leaders). everytime something isnt going right in venezuela, its a cia conspiracy. Musharraf blames Afghanistan for his unwillingness to democratize. the list goes on, Chavez is hardly revolutionary. (i forgot that iran blames israel). externalization is the first sign that a leader doesn't perceive that he has control over the country.

 

i have a meeting with venezuela's consular attachè to montreal tomorrow night when he speaks following this movie The Revolution will Not be Televised. Anyone have any questions you want me to ask for you?

 

ps. yum the reason why im directly addressing you is because i believe that you feel very strongly about what youre talking about. we're both talking about progress, i believe that chavez isn't the person to do it, you can read elsewhere in here why i think so, and essentially, i disagree with you and i don't think its fair for you to dismiss facts, not positions, just because they are ideologically inconsistent with what you believe.

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Its amazing how people can think their own opinions (based on far left internet sites and their cushy lives in the west) mean more than those who have real perspective and base their opinions on actually living in chavez’s equitable socialist fantasy land, and just write any different point of view off. Excellent post estrik, but unfortunately I think telling the truth to people who would rather not believe it is a waste of your time.

 

“Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity” –MLK Jr.

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plus i'm so sick of peopel in this thread saying that if your anti-chavez your automatically "not of the right demographics." what the fuck type of shit is that (again, besides being fascist).

 

I was thinking the same thing, earlier in this thread the people mamerro know were obviously anti-revolutionary CIA agents, who must hate Venezuela since they left the country. One question I have - Why does Chavez’s govt spend a huge amount of bolivares on giving US citizens free heating oil, while so many of his own people in Venezuela live in extreme poverty and could definitely use that money much more than a “poor” American?

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answering to yumones thought, I dont think is chavez´s fault that theres80% of poverty here in my country but he definitely hasm´t done anything to improve that situacion other that blackmailing some barrios givin them some basic services in exchange of their vote. And no that situation doesnt come since the spanish, matter of fact in the 60´s and 70´s people from europe came here to live and to make money because this was such a walthy country, and altough there was poverty, it wasnt 80%. Dont get me wrong I also hace a socialist point of wiew about politics but the truth is this presidente aint socialist, its an authoritarian dressed up as a socialist.. the truth is he has no real studies about politics or about socialist thinking he is a millitary who loves power so much he even tried to take power by violence murdering a lot of people in radio and tv stations from the old government to then fail... What you say about money and oil. chavez gives Cuba and unbeleivable amount of oil monthly in exchange of nothing, when his own people lives in poverty, and when I say poverty I mean in houses made of boxes with no light or electricity where 5 or 6 people sleep in the same matress. He says theres social security and health for everybody and he brings cuban doctors that arent even graduated to the public health centers, and this doctors have already made mistakes that have killed people, mostly children. so how is that for social security?. About the university, let me tell you that being a public university of very good quality(at least for now) there is not only one demographic group there, the one you like to call (the sons of rich people) ´, there is from pèople that live on the barrios to people that live in huge houses and have a lot of cars, and all these people together say no to Chavez´s so called "democratic socialism" which is nothing but the way to a totalitaris regimen. I dont know if you will take this serious or even if this would change your mind but the truth is that te average venezuelan(im not talkin about rich people im talking middle-working classs people) is livin worse now than ever before. I live here so I would know right?

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and just another thougt.. the dictator of Venezuela that stayed longer in power in all our history, reformed constitution every seven years so he could stay in power longer.. he reformed the same article chavez wants to reform the one that extends presidential terms to 7 years and the one that says he can be "re-elected" for as long as he wants. He stayed for 27 years.. until he died..

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I am going to have to take issue with playing the card about not renewing the TV stations license.

 

A TV station which "said something negative about him"... you mean the television station that supported the failed coup, spread rampant propaganda during it and for several years afterwards...

 

If that were any other country, including the US, the station would have ceased to exist in the first place and the people running it would have been lined up and shot.

 

I am in full agreeance that Chavez has shown almost nothing for his efforts and year by year is cracking further down on dissidents and moving more and more closer to fascist behavior but shutting down the TV station owned and run by Venezuela's bourgeois elite is hardly the best example you can put forward.

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I'd like to take a look at this supposed rampant propaganda being disseminated by this station. I'm pretty sure none of us with the exception of estrik has ever seen it to really talk about it.

 

On the other hand, I've seen Chavez's little show, and I can't fathom it ever being worse than that on the propaganda tip.

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I'd like to take a look at this supposed rampant propaganda being disseminated by this station. I'm pretty sure none of us with the exception of estrik has ever seen it to really talk about it.

 

On the other hand, I've seen Chavez's little show, and I can't fathom it ever being worse than that on the propaganda tip.

 

It is well documented.

 

I don't have a reference off hand but I'm sure if you look into it you will find verification as to its actions during the coup attempt, its content in the years afterwards and subsequently who owns it.

 

But again, the fact that it openly supported the coup, would be enough to have it destroyed and all involved executed in most countries, including all the Western ones.

 

If you watch the link to the '...will not be televised' documentary posted somewhere above chances are it will contain footage of the footage this station, and others, were broadcasting when the event happened.

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Reading documentation, however well documented < watching it firsthand

 

I'll see if I can find a few examples in that docu.

 

Well you are in luck then because from what I remember 'the revolution will not be televised' is titled that for a reason... possibly as a direct play on one of the themes of the documentary... the role of the television stations.

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the events that happened between april 11 to 13 of 02 that you are talking about are actually really depressing from both sides given the fact that everything started with a peacefull protest that ended up with the chavistas armed groups called "circulos bolivarianos" killing awhole bunch of people in different places of the capital during that day. The result of armed chavistas killing unarmed protestant people was that de national army pronounced that since that moment they did not recognize Chavez´s power because their duty was to protect the people in general and not a few interests.. (So far if you ask me i agreed with that given the fact that innocent people had just died infront of the police and the army and nobody did anything) but then came the crappy part where a rich minority saw in this the chance to take power without any constitutional bases and that was when they took chavez to a military prison and this guy (wich doesnt represent the real opposition at all but it´s just an opportunist) called Pedro Carmona Estanga swears himself as president . now given that this was a move made by oportunism and without bases at all two days later Chavez came back to power supported by the supreme court (which obviusly was fair because the power was taken away from him in a totally illegal and undemocratic way). Now i ask... after that president chavez didnt mention anything about the people that had died in the protest two days ago.. lives he is responsable for given the fact that he is the one who armed this Circulos Bolivarianos. Its not that RCTV (the channel that was shut down) transmited ragin propaganda and publicly supported the coup its just that they, and other tv and radio stations kept transmitin the images and footage of people diying in the hands of the circulos. Now, i agree with you that media should transmit the information without adding any pilitical propaganda matterin theyr own interests, but what should they do? forget about the lifes that were just lost and transmit the 5 hour speech that Chavez gave when he came back to power?? insulting the victims family and friends? Now other than that. if you still dont like that example fine.

I just put that example to show how Chavez is one step at a time compromising the freedom speech of my people. And you might say that freedom of speech is perfectly fine because you see protests against chavez all the time. What you dont see its all the people that get shot hurt with perdigons or tear gas everytime by the"CirculosBolivarianos"

People around the world keep saying that chavez cares about poor people and that he is fair but the truth is he doesnt he has his own agenda and he is so focused in his hate of America and other Imperialistic Contries that he gets blinded by that. In 99 there was an awful flood in Venezuelan Shore and thousands of houses were destroyed. America offered his help and sent boats with water and food and chavez just for pride said "no we dont need help from anybody" 8 years later theres hundreds of family that still have no house...

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hey thanks a lot for your posts estrik by the sounds of it I have been wrong about the extent to which Chavez is really 'for the people'. I suppose the question is do you think there is a viable alternative between Chavez and the capitalists who sold out Venezuela before him? I mena obviously there is a hypothetical alternative but is there any kind of movement amongst people in this direction?

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Constitutional Reform:

(the one that the opposition whines so much about)

 

Will add:

 

-Creation of Communal city self-governments, inside Municipalities already existing, adding a new Territorial Power, "people's power", together with state,national and municipal powers.

 

-Allows the State to finance Electoral Activities, and prohibits Foreign governments

or public or private entities to Fund Political Associations.

 

-Reduction to max 6 hours per day of work and 36 hours max a week, no forced overtime working.

 

-Unlimited re-election, through democratic elections, every 7 years.

 

-Prohibition of Latifundium

 

and many more points that the reform covers are in this pdf document here that goes by the constitution quickly without being the constitutional reform itself which i cant seem to find in English, yet, I'll keep looking to see if i can find it. but this document should let you know what the reform is about. is missing some parts thats why i want the complete translated reform.

http://www.venamcham.org/analisis/leyes/reforma_constitucional_ingles.pdf

http://www.venamcham.org/analisis/leyes/reforma_constitucional_ingles.pdf

http://www.venamcham.org/analisis/leyes/reforma_constitucional_ingles.pdf

http://www.venamcham.org/analisis/leyes/reforma_constitucional_ingles.pdf

 

enjoy, and ask me whatever about the reform if you need to.

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-"Allows the State to finance Electoral Activities, and prohibits Foreign governments

or public or private entities to Fund Political Associations."

 

 

 

AWESOME. i take it that political associations are every political actor in the state besides the one in power the. so chavez will be the only person who can pay to campaign during these 'democratic elections' every 7 years. OH- and he shut down the opposition media. Oh- and there's unlimited reelections.

 

Isn't that contradictory? by way of the state being THE public entity.

 

WONDERFUL. :crap:

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he is not the only one, anyone can, but it will have to be seen by the eyes of the state. to know where it comes from.

 

and the ones that CANT it is foreign govs,public and private entities.(CIA, neocons, wealthy families, washington dc, ect)

 

read the reform before saying something you know very little about.

i assume u know Spanish. ----> articulo 67

(http://www.cne.gov.ve/elecciones/referendo_constitucional2007/documentos/Proyecto_Reforma_final.pdf) <----

 

also

how did the meeting went?

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^dude ill read that when i get a chance, but im kind of swamped with school stuff these days....

 

okay i read what you were saying as there are now three different categories who cannot finance elections:

1. foreign govts. (kind of contradictory considering that chavez campaigned for morales, no?)

2. public entities- again, its kind of shady in the venezuelen context, because aren't some of the unions technically subsidized by the govt, thereby becoming a public entity?

3.private entities- this is where i say hold up. i'm all about campaign financing, keep it grassroots and all that, but again it goes back to my critique a second ago. if the state is dominated by chavistas, and the state is the only people who can finance elections, then how do you expect them to pass funding for "neo-imperialistas" ????

- i dont understand how this doesnt look shady as fuck. unlimited reelections is shady as is. you simply don't want cults of personalities to start, even though we are way past worrying about that in venezuela of course.

 

the meeting was alright. i walked in sort of late and missed the first half of the movie, ill be sure to watch it online though. i asked the consular general how he could justify venezuela's intervention in numerous elections in south america in order to expand venezuela's status as a regional power while failing to carry out the reforms he promised 8 years ago in Caracas. The official replied very angrily, wondering why i would go to this movie showing if i was anti-Chavez (!). then he said poverty doesn't stop at political borders, and venezuela has a mandate stamp out all poverty, not just venezuelen poverty. he pointed to the heating oil example in america.

 

I fired another question off out of turn cuz the group who put it on (NDP's student org, a really leftist party in Canada) was hoping for pro-chavez comments and was pissed.

 

my second question was, how can you determine a mandate in the international sphere, without a regional democratic process, as seen in the referendums of the EU? How can you, a former military official, decide that it is in another country's interest for you to influence their domestic affairs?

 

My favorite part of it all: i was told that i couldn't understand because i was in canada, and that i need to go see the context for myself. hahahahaha the number one chavista rebuttal, yet they have no answers for my questions which i think were very inciteful. alright enough self promotion already.

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you know its funny how people that are in favor of Chavez always seem to look at the best of him . You talk about three or four articles that you seem to find positive but whatabout all the others? What about the one that says that the presidente can declare state ofexception whenever he wants and during this state of exception anyone can be taken in arrest and go to jail without any kind of judicial process? does this seem fair? Imagine there is an opposition concentration and suddenly Chavez declares state of exception a takes under arrest 100 students the ones that he hates so much. They could go to jail for unlimited time till he decides that it´s enough, he wouldnt even need a real reason for it.. Cause as he has grown to prove he can pull reasons to do unfair stuff in 5 seconds. (Examples: the closing of RCtv, the murder of tens of people during a civil manifestation, the illegal forming of armed groups with m16´s than even the army doesnt have, the incarceration of at least a 100 students for 6 months without real reasons, ) SO yeah what a good idea lets give him even more legal power to do this kind of stuff.

And what about this phrase you just said: "he is not the only one, anyone can, but it will have to be seen by the eyes of the state" that´s so funny because in the eyes of the state anyone or anything that doesnt support the so called "REvolution" it´s a traidor to the country, a facist, etc etc etc. So yeah sounds good. Lets give him more power to decide who can and can´t be a political actor in this "democratic government"

And while we are in the subject that Chavez supports the poor and works for his people lets just take a second to look at chavez´s new toys bought with the peoplé´s money

apresidencial.jpg 80 million dollarsthe biggest and most expensive plane ever bought by venezuelan government.. plus armani suits... plus a rolex... yeah thats very socialist and not at all elithist....he really cares..

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about the public and private entities, they cant be FOREIGN, they can be local, not FOREIGN, i put it in yellow so you could understand better because the other post with the "or and "or" in between words seems like is saying what you believe it says, but the reform says FOREIGN govs,public,and private entities cant finance political parties/organizations/people.

 

i dont want to connect your inability to see this pointed out here^ to your inability to see the progress of Venezuela, but I'm sure your pessimism is making you lose hope in this change in Latin America which has to be shown to other countries so political conscience grows among citizens of Latin America.(that might be the influence of chavez in other countries, you are talking about)

 

estrik:

by the eyes of the state, so they see if it's foreign funding. foreign funding it's what is not wanted...that's one of the mayor blows to the new world order because they wont be able to fund the corruption they have been funding for decades. yet, money will enter illegally, but the risk is that if found, the investigation will lead to connections which will be shown in the media and people will learn more about who is their enemy. and who is that? the centralized power that has been behind every mayor scam. they are all related.

think globally.

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juan fuentes what are you talking about, the corruption??? you really think that eliminating foreign funding will reduce corruption are you kidding me? did you really think that corruption money rarely even enters Venezuela, except in the random cases of supreme idiocy on the part of some dumb congressman. Nah mah dude. That money stays strictly Panamanian. I'm sure you know all about those bank secrecy laws right? anyone making that real money hit up panama yo. :scrambled:

 

so back to your reforms. so if a venezuelen makes all his money in america, working for a hedge fund. does he get to fund elections/run for president? is a western educated venezuelen get to run? or is that foreign imperialism? ....

 

what about immigrants? are they able to have any sort of political rights? or are they foreign entities?

 

sorry im asking so many questions, i don;t have time to read the referendum. can you refer me to the pages that describe these concerns, and i do know spanish so just the page number is sufficient.

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post number 80 has the link to all the reform, the one about funding government is article 67. articulo 67.

 

_________________

 

to vote you have to have been a citizen for 10 years. that's what i heard in the news just today. i think that wasn't changed in the referendum.

 

a western educated Venezuelan can run, there is no law prohibiting that.

 

 

a Venezuelan funding a government of a country he doesn't live in is prohibited by the new law, he can do it still by sending it to a family member and the family member will put the money himself. when the state finds out there his party has a problem. and everything that is prohibited has some kind of penalty which in this case i dont know yet.

 

 

of course stopping foreign political funding will reduce corruption. there are other countries and corporations which businesses go bad when they have certain governments/leaders.

so it is essential for them to fund news channels like globovision, political parties/organizations.

please dont be naive, dont tell me the CIA(an example) never did things like these.

 

 

 

ALSO, something important to point out, which i want your opinion on it is the new law that allows 16 and 17 year olds to vote(also in the reform). before it was 18 up. what do you(or anyone who wants to share his opinion) think about that new law?

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dude i am completely about 16 year olds having the right to vote. too bad none of them are politicized right? so if you're expecting 15% turnout for 16 year olds, is that really that big a concession? think a little deeper. the only politicized 16 yearolds are chavistas, with their youth organizations. so this is just a way of chavez getting more votes my man, without actually "revolutionizing" society, because he is not engaging any further people.

 

going back to panama, and im telling you again. most politicians are not dumb enoguh to keep corruption money in your own country. you talk about nwo im talking about acting rational. when you can have a bank account in panama wiithout having to tell them your name or social security number, why wouldn't you? you would rather keep it in your freezer like that dumbass in kentucky?

 

and again i want to insist, that by politically marginalizing the venezeulen diaspora (jus thtink for a second how many venezuelens each of us know. from now on, their money means nothing to the government, yet also think how much they send back. because theyre going to america (they now have to lose their political rights?). thats messed up.

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you know its funny how people that are in favor of Chavez always seem to look at the best of him . You talk about three or four articles that you seem to find positive but whatabout all the others? What about the one that says that the presidente can declare state ofexception whenever he wants and during this state of exception anyone can be taken in arrest and go to jail without any kind of judicial process? does this seem fair? Imagine there is an opposition concentration and suddenly Chavez declares state of exception a takes under arrest 100 students the ones that he hates so much. They could go to jail for unlimited time till he decides that it´s enough, he wouldnt even need a real reason for it.. Cause as he has grown to prove he can pull reasons to do unfair stuff in 5 seconds. (Examples: the closing of RCtv, the murder of tens of people during a civil manifestation, the illegal forming of armed groups with m16´s than even the army doesnt have, the incarceration of at least a 100 students for 6 months without real reasons, ) SO yeah what a good idea lets give him even more legal power to do this kind of stuff.

And what about this phrase you just said: "he is not the only one, anyone can, but it will have to be seen by the eyes of the state" that´s so funny because in the eyes of the state anyone or anything that doesnt support the so called "REvolution" it´s a traidor to the country, a facist, etc etc etc. So yeah sounds good. Lets give him more power to decide who can and can´t be a political actor in this "democratic government"

And while we are in the subject that Chavez supports the poor and works for his people lets just take a second to look at chavez´s new toys bought with the peoplé´s money

apresidencial.jpg 80 million dollarsthe biggest and most expensive plane ever bought by venezuelan government.. plus armani suits... plus a rolex... yeah thats very socialist and not at all elithist....he really cares..

 

I'm not defending this presidential power crap at all but it is important to point out that George Bush presided over what sounds like exactly the same kind of legislation in the United States that allows him to declare states of emergency and excersize presidential powers including the suspension of habeus corpus etc. So maybe we should all be a bit mroe vocal in criticism of the most powerful man in the world in the most powerful country in the world having that power as well as little president Chavez

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George Bush............... So maybe we should all be a bit mroe vocal in criticism of the most powerful man in the world in the most powerful country in the world having that power as well as little president Chavez

 

Then go ahead and start a different thread since this one is about Chavez. And I predict the slight point of contention would be that bushy boy isn’t having the riot police shoot a few protesters and journalists at each of the various anti war DC get togethers, and last time I checked the daily show, keith olbermann etc etc etc are still on the air.

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just to add an image here, about how was the percentage per municipality in all Venezuela last elections. 2006

 

venezuelarojarojita2006.jpg

 

 

about 16 year olds for voting, it is very important because you bring awareness and responsibility to younger people who are capable of choosing but are ignored because young people tend to be more revolutionary and less conditioned because of their short period of life and less responsibilities. you would be getting them to look at politics and yes most young people interested in politics in Venezuela are from Chavez side because thats one of the beauty of this revolution that you see young people from both sexes with a knowledge about politics that no other country has, and who is young and it is not revolutionary is contradicting himself.

 

 

now:

referring to the image up there, Chavez won 6 to 4 (%)(all municipalities) and not all countries get that high of percentage when presidents win. me and you can agree Chavez is a democratic elected president. but it is criticized a lot about anything possible, when there are presidents who are not doing anything for their countries and the people hate them so much that the only thing holding them in office is their term. but we are talking about Chavez, because they want, they have being trying to smear him like they've smeared everyone who will reduce their corrupt power if elected.

 

they do it to Ron Paul, they do it to Kucinich, they do it to anyone who opposes them, it is sad that y'all are not seeing this pattern.

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everyone has their own opinion I respect that. just wanted people from other countries who beleive in changes and in revolution that there´s no revolution going on in venezuela.. just a hipocrit president in a hipocrit government full of hipocrit opportunist who dont give a shit about venezuelans (rich or poor) and just wanna join the party and take as much pieces of the pie as they can before this country goes to the dump... thanks for the people who took interest in my comments that was enough for me. "patria socialismo o muerte"... yeah right.. pray for us those who care

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