HOW TO GET TO HEAVEN WHEN YOU DIE

[russell jones]

Not at all. In islam one of the things we study intensely is the attributes of God. For instance, God is all knowing, all hearing, the creator, everliving, the owner of everything,

The most merciful, The most wise. And we understand that God is not in need of anything. He created everything, so everything is subject to his will. He is not subject to anything.

So to say that God came to earth , became a man, died, etc. is stripping God of his perfect qualities and attributing to God something that God himself never attributed to himself.

 

That's why I brought up proof earlier. Where is their proof to say God became Jesus? an english version of a book that was translated from Aramaic to hebrew, then from hebrew to Greek, then to Latin, then into English? That's not proof at all. Not to mention that these people , Jesus' disciples, Luke, Matthew, Peter, etc. Who are they? what are their last names? What families did they come from? Look it up, you wont find it. THese people who supposedly wrote the bible are nameless. Without a lineage. We don't know who they are, so how can we accept their writings that were translated 5 times before it reached us?

 

Most of the the New Testament was originally written in Greek.

 

I think I know enough about Islam to know that there are more similarities than differences with Christianity when taken in the context of all world religions.

 

By the way, if you look into the Koran, you may find out that it was culled from many sources and is not necessarily in the same state that historical Mohamed wrote it.

[Dawood]

c'mon, dude, I'm a muslim who studies islam morning, noon and night. The quran is the speech of God. There is not a muslim on the face of the earth that beleives otherwise.

I know there are people out there that try to say the quran was changed etc. etc. but they use the fact that grammar marks were later added to the text to say that.

 

The grammar marks did not change anything , the purpose they serve is to preserve the proper pronounciation when non arabs recite it. The arabs didn't need the grammar marks, but us non arabs need them so we don't butcher the quran when reciting it.

[russell jones]

Ok, explain one more fundamental difference, other than Jesus being God, between Islam and Christianity.

 

Look into it, Islam did not emerge out of a vacuum.

[the.crooked]

Also, Dawood, you can not presume to decry the dogma of one faith only to fulfill your claims against it.

 

 

If a christian, practiced and born, says they are monotheistic, I tend to believe them.

[the.crooked]

oh and russel, look up before dawood. i responded about the consciousness and death thing again.

[russell jones]

A good place to start on contextual criticism of the Koran may be here, a book edited by a former Muslim

 

http://debate.org.uk/topics/books/origins-koran.html

 

 

This Wikipedia article has some sources as well

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Qur%27an

[russell jones]

yeah i was thinkin bout it at the end of last semester. I was really into looking at systems as dialectic oppositions. And then I just abstracted a couple levels, and tried to figure out why death is such an important figure in philosophy. Then I thought about how we struggle so long to understand what life is, but to what aim. What is its antithesis that we explicate so much about implicitly through our study of life? Death itself.

 

I am not sure if I understand what you're getting at here. Do you mean that Death as a dialectic opposition the Life (capitals intended), should be studied more intensely?

[NoeWhan]

Isnt 'World' a wrong translation, and it really means 'Age?'

 

'It will be the end of the Age.'

[lord_casek]

wow. how many of you actually believe in the sterile science of "there is no god at all"?

 

 

i took "other."

 

this is crazy talk in here. now i wish i would've stayed out. i just scanned up to see what the line of discussion was because i was going to explain my belief a little, instaed i saw a bunch of people hating on christianity and some other crap. knock that shit off. you shouldn't hate people for their beliefs as long as it doesn't harm you.

 

i'm a spiritual person in some ways, but i try to balance science in.

i think islam regards science as next to god. they're probably close

enough to the "right" idea about that.

i think people could have still evolved from apes and a god has a place

in that. can have a plan in it.

i used to really believe in the teachings of buddha. i thought the logic was

sensible. being humble to your world and whatnot. but that's not enough.

even the monks knew that there was a time to be humble and a time to

fight for your beliefs and rights as humans being. (word play on purpose)

these days i just remind myself of how tiny a part of the universe this planet

is and am forced to believe something great and wonderful created all that is

and was.

[lord_casek]

I am not sure if I understand what you're getting at here. Do you mean that Death as a dialectic opposition the Life (capitals intended), should be studied more intensely?

 

 

reminds me of that saying "it's not the destination, it's the journey"

[Dawood]

A good place to start on contextual criticism of the Koran may be here, a book edited by a former Muslim

 

http://debate.org.uk/topics/books/origins-koran.html

 

 

This Wikipedia article has some sources as well

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Qur%27an

 

oh, yeah. let's have a look at what a former muslim has to say about the Quran, WHY WOULD I GO TO A PETSTORE TO LEARN ABOUT MEDICINE?

 

I honestly don't have time to look through every point this guy makes, but I'll pick out the most important ones.

 

ok, I clicked on that link and didn't see ONE verse of the quran. Nor did I see ONE authentic narration of the prophet Muhammad. This essay is a peice of trash. It has no sources. Ibn Warraq just says whatever he wants to. It's his opinion, through and through, and honestly I thought he might have tried a little harder than that.

 

If a person wants to criticise the quran, he should at least bring sources that are considered authenticly reported by muslim scholars to substantiate his claim. This writing was not directed to people who understand islam, it was directed at people who already have no knowledge of Islam to further distance them from it. No muslim would ever accept this peice of trash. It his opinion , and none of his claims can be substantiated because he doesn't even reference his work.

[the.crooked]

Russel-

 

 

Naw, I was saying that in studying life, our ultimate goal is actually studying death. By trying to explicitly state all that life is, we are explicitly saying what death is not implicitly. Sort of like in taoism when to say what the Way is is to speak of what it is not.

 

 

And casek, you should really read some classic philosophy. For all the energy you put into reading shit on the net, it would do you some good to get into that business.

[Dawood]

Ok, explain one more fundamental difference, other than Jesus being God, between Islam and Christianity.

 

Look into it, Islam did not emerge out of a vacuum.

 

 

I already said that Jesus was a muslim. second. What more do you want after that?

They worship a man! I think that's enough of a difference, but since you asked, We don't beleive in the original sin. Muslims beleive that each person carries the burden of his own sins, not that each person carries the burden of Adams sin. Also, we don't beleive that Jesus is dead. We beleive he was raised up and that someone else was killed in his place

 

And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allâh," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of 'Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) ]: (An-Nisa 4:157)

theres a lot more...but I think that will do.

[Dawood]

Also, Dawood, you can not presume to decry the dogma of one faith only to fulfill your claims against it.

 

 

If a christian, practiced and born, says they are monotheistic, I tend to believe them.

 

Beleive him based on what?

 

Let's talk about the word monotheistic, what does that mean? Go ahead, give me a wiki defenition. Then I'll show you what a true monotheist is.

[the.crooked]

I don't give a fuck about wiki.

 

 

I define monotheism as a religious practice which focuses soteriological and dogmatic cannon based around a central and omniscient god.

[Dawood]

ok, so to know what Monotheism is, you need to define polytheism, right?

And what is Polytheism? Polytheism is to worship something other than God, the true God.

 

And the first incident of polytheism took place among the people of Noah when they exceeded the limits of respect for their saints and started worshipping them despite exhortation by their Prophets.

Noah's people were led to idolatry because they aggrandized their dead by sculpturing their images. Such is the case with most idolaters." (15) Some were made to worship stars, as they believed that stars are influential elements in the universe. Later, they built shrines, appointed gate keepers and custodians and fixed offerings and rites for the stars. The same method still continues, apparently originating from the Sabians, the people of Abraham. Abraham (peace be upon him) argued with his people pointing out to them the falsehood of idolatry. He silenced them with arguments and shattered their idols. Consequently, his people demanded that he be set on fire.

 

The lesson we learn is that Satan is bent on deceiving mankind. He will try every trick to exploit man's sentiments. When Satan observed among the people of Noah their emotional liking for pious people, he tempted them to exceed their love and finally made them place those people's statues in their dwellings in order to make them worship them and begin to stray from the right path.

[russell jones]

oh, yeah. let's have a look at what a former muslim has to say about the Quran, WHY WOULD I GO TO A PETSTORE TO LEARN ABOUT MEDICINE?

 

I honestly don't have time to look through every point this guy makes, but I'll pick out the most important ones.

 

ok, I clicked on that link and didn't see ONE verse of the quran. Nor did I see ONE authentic narration of the prophet Muhammad. This essay is a peice of trash. It has no sources. Ibn Warraq just says whatever he wants to. It's his opinion, through and through, and honestly I thought he might have tried a little harder than that.

 

If a person wants to criticise the quran, he should at least bring sources that are considered authenticly reported by muslim scholars to substantiate his claim. This writing was not directed to people who understand islam, it was directed at people who already have no knowledge of Islam to further distance them from it. No muslim would ever accept this peice of trash. It his opinion , and none of his claims can be substantiated because he doesn't even reference his work.

 

 

Don't really understand the pet store comment, but anyways.

 

If you say that you study Islam day in and day out, yet you cannot entertain the idea that the Koran is a historical document, then you are missing out on much of the cultural context of your religion.

 

The first link is a collection of essays critiquing the origins of the Koran, it is not written by just one man. It gives historical context to the composition of the Koran. The website I gave you was simply a summary.

 

Would you believe anyone who presented excellent evidence that parts of the Koran predate Mohamed and that it was not actually written down in it's present form until many years of the death of Mohamed?

[russell jones]

I already said that Jesus was a muslim. second. What more do you want after that?

They worship a man! I think that's enough of a difference, but since you asked, We don't beleive in the original sin. Muslims beleive that each person carries the burden of his own sins, not that each person carries the burden of Adams sin. Also, we don't beleive that Jesus is dead. We beleive he was raised up and that someone else was killed in his place

 

And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allâh," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of 'Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) ]: (An-Nisa 4:157)

theres a lot more...but I think that will do.

 

 

I agree with you, that is a fundamental belief in Christianity. Good job!

 

So Muslims think that Jesus is still alive? I don't get what you are saying.

[Dawood]

No. I wouldn't beleive that at all, because the quran was revealed to him and it would contradict all the evidence that is presented by the prophet himself.

 

I know for sure that it wasn't compiled (not written down) but compiled until after his death. Yes, that's a fact, but that doesn't change it what is contained in the quran.

 

First of all the word " Quran" comes from a root eord Quraa which means recitation.

So the quran was memorised by the prophet and many of his companions even before it was compiled the way it is today, but there were scribes who's job it was to write down everything that was revealed.

 

As for the link...

Still , this historical collection of essays provide no proof from agreed upon sources.

[Dawood]

I agree with you, that is a fundamental belief in Christianity. Good job!

 

So Muslims think that Jesus is still alive? I don't get what you are saying.

 

 

But Allâh raised him ['Iesa (Jesus)] up (with his body and soul) unto Himself (and he is in the heavens). And Allâh is Ever All­Powerful, All­Wise. (An-Nisa 4:158)

So he is in the heavens with Allah waiting to descend back to earth to fulfill the rest of his prophecy.

[russell jones]

No. I wouldn't beleive that at all, because the quran was revealed to him and it would contradict all the evidence that is presented by the prophet himself.

 

 

This, my friend, is called a circular argument.

 

I thought Muslims could question anything? I guess by "anything," you meant some things.

 

Here is an interesting article from the times about Koranic scholarship and textual analysis.

 

http://select.nytimes.com/search/restricted/article?res=F70D11FF35550C718CDDAA0894DA404482

 

Some highlights,

 

" To Muslims the Koran is the very word of God, who spoke through the Angel Gabriel to Muhammad: ''This book is not to be doubted,'' the Koran declares unequivocally at its beginning. Scholars and writers in Islamic countries who have ignored that warning have sometimes found themselves the target of death threats and violence, sending a chill through universities around the world.

 

Yet despite the fear, a handful of experts have been quietly investigating the origins of the Koran, offering radically new theories about the text's meaning and the rise of Islam.

 

Christoph Luxenberg, a scholar of ancient Semitic languages in Germany, argues that the Koran has been misread and mistranslated for centuries. His work, based on the earliest copies of the Koran, maintains that parts of Islam's holy book are derived from pre-existing Christian Aramaic texts that were misinterpreted by later Islamic scholars who prepared the editions of the Koran commonly read today.

 

So, for example, the virgins who are supposedly awaiting good Islamic martyrs as their reward in paradise are in reality ''white raisins'' of crystal clarity rather than fair maidens.

 

Christoph Luxenberg, however, is a pseudonym, and his scholarly tome ''''The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran'' had trouble finding a publisher, although it is considered a major new work by several leading scholars in the field. Verlag Das Arabische Buch in Berlin ultimately published the book. "

 

Luxenberg has apparently received good reviews from scholars on his work.

 

The article also makes the point that there must have been Christians in Mecca in the time of Mohammad.

[the.crooked]

ok, so to know what Monotheism is, you need to define polytheism, right?

And what is Polytheism? Polytheism is to worship something other than God, the true God.

 

 

 

Polytheism is a belief in many gods, usually with their own heirarchical structures. In those religions all gods are the true gods.

[russell jones]

The Qu'ran seems to think Christians, Jews and another monotheistic sect called the Sabians all will be rewarded by God,

 

"[2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve."

[Dawood]

The Qu'ran seems to think Christians, Jews and another monotheistic sect called the Sabians all will be rewarded by God,

 

"[2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve."

 

 

this is referring to the ones who become muslims. It says "whoever beleives in Allah and the last day"

[xrebelheartsx]

so is that to say that those who don't become muslims won't "have their reward from their lord"? because by the usage of the term "their lord", that sort of indicates to me that it's not just those that become muslims.

 

however, if it is to say that only those that become muslims will have their reward, that backs up the biggest problem with religion, in that so many of them (religions) have the "we're right, they're wrong" sort of belief.

 

if i'm misinterpreting what you're saying, forgive me. just trying to figure out whether it's the "holier than thou" attitude.

[russell jones]

this is referring to the ones who become muslims. It says "whoever beleives in Allah and the last day"

 

 

I would guess the last day refers to Judgment, and the quote to me does not seem to imply that the Christians, Jews and Sabians must convert.

[MAR]

Wait, let me get something straight here. If I understand you correctly, Dawood, you claim that all the biblical prophets and leaders that predate Islam and Muhammad are Muslim?

 

My other question is, do you believe in a Jewish people?

[the.crooked]

Dawood stretches the term to step outside its dogmatic boundaries.

[russell jones]

No, I do not believe he does. His contention that the Patriarchs were Muslim is wholly consistent with the Quran in its English translation.

[russell jones]

From the Koran:

 

"[2.131] When his Lord said to him, Be a Muslim, he said: I submit myself to the Lord of the worlds.

[2.132] And the same did Ibrahim enjoin on his sons and (so did) Yaqoub. O my sons! surely Allah has chosen for you (this) faith, therefore die not unless you are Muslims."