Ron Paul Revolution!!!!

[CILONE/SK]

The above was written before you and defy started talking. Hard to stay on top of threads from a phone.

 

But AOD. I do think you can not see the forest for the trees if yOu honestly think the best option is to default.

[Zig]

Tell me how does it feel not to use anything that was funded by our government? Roads, sewers, I can go on and on. Because if you use that stuff and you are advocating for a so-called free nation, that makes you a hypocrite.

 

Should we also be thanking the government for the sun coming up in the morning? It isn't necessary to worship government because we use the services they provide with the tax money that we give them. Let's not also forget how poor most of the roads and sewers are in urban areas, and how much better our infrastructure and nation could be overall if our tax money were used for better purposes rather than military, policing, and security.

 

And since RP advocates for us to default on the debt, which would leave an untold many of people without jobs and the ability to provide for their families, I will call him and you un-American and against all that America stands for.

 

I sometimes think America should default, then everyone would finally realise how fucked up the situation would get for them, and it would be a great slap in the face of the tea party extremists who seem hell bent on screwing over America.

 

People dont seem to understand it will have a worldwide effect and good luck to America getting any kind of credit facilities at a decent rate if your credit rating gets downgraded, and that will then affect everry American with loans, mortgages etc.

 

If you think a default is the best idea then you are frankly not looking at the bigger picture. Your country would be deemed as more worthless than Greece, who hassnt yet defaulted because the Euro cuurency countries are fighting to stop the same thing happening to the Euro zone.

 

RP advocates for defaulting on our debt now to save ourselves from a larger, more significant, farther reaching, and more devastating crisis further down the road that would be inevitable. We aren't safe from the blowback that will occur due to the irresponsibile behaviour of our government and the fed when it comes to our monetary policy. His suggestion is to allow a default so that we can withstand the brunt of whatever crisis may occur, and work on reforming our monetary policy to better reflect what is written in the constitution and to revitalize our economy from the ground up rather than patching up a failing system. It's the same kind of argument that was made when we were deciding whether or not to bail out the banks in 2008. Three years later, and our problems still aren't fixed due to those decisions.

 

I agree with you Decy that it will have a worldwide effect, and that Americans will suffer, but I don't think that RP or anyone who supports him isn't sentimental about the seriosuness of the situation. There are however, choices and decisions that we must make as a society to get to the root of the problems that are causing instability in our global markets, and we have to truly understand what is causing that instability for us to solve those problems. Today in Washington, the struggle is between those who have differing opinions on what the causes are for the problems that are occurring. You're absolutely correct with your predictions of how devastating a defaut could be, so now take that scenario and imagine what could possibly occur if we patch up the problem with quick fixes now and further down the road we face more crisis that is unable to be fixed with quick solutions. Now our global market will be facing an even wider reaching, more devastating crisis that could rapidly deteriorate and become uncontrollable. We have to face the real causes of this instability now before it's too late.

[CILONE/SK]

^ did you copy and paste that from an RP campaign flyer?

 

So you think it is ok to have millions of middle class and lower people suffer because we should confront this now and not later? You really believe that it is better to not revoke the bush tax breaks and default in the debt then to come up with a real working solution?

 

It amazes me how you can say you understand what a default will do to the world and then say that you want this to come about because the alternative might be worse.

 

Stay home playing video games kid, while me and the grown ups discuss real issues.

[Decyferon]

the thing is it isnt about quick fixes, that is all the republican party are talking about at the moment, You need to remove ALL tax cuts that the bush administration put in place for high earners and companies. Cuts need to be made in government spending, there is no reasson for the US military to be so large, they could cut down spending on that, also there are government programmes that arent needed that can be cut I'm sure, as long as you aren't making cuts that will affect the poorest and most needy. It wont be easy for everyone, but I don't se why the rich and huge companies should be able to get away scott free while THEY expect the rest of you to suffer.

[CILONE/SK]

^word

[Zig]

the thing is it isnt about quick fixes, that is all the republican party are talking about at the moment, You need to remove ALL tax cuts that the bush administration put in place for high earners and companies. Cuts need to be made in government spending, there is no reasson for the US military to be so large, they could cut down spending on that, also there are government programmes that arent needed that can be cut I'm sure, as long as you aren't making cuts that will affect the poorest and most needy. It wont be easy for everyone, but I don't se why the rich and huge companies should be able to get away scott free while THEY expect the rest of you to suffer.

 

I understand, but the cuts are not going to solve the problem. Are you grasping the enormity of what is occurring in the financial markets? The country will eventually default due to the increased inflation of the dollar, it's almost a foregone-conclusion. We can raise the debt limit, which will probably pass, but the bills will be paid with bad money so in essence we as a nation are constantly defaulting on our debt. That's why nations like China have come out on record as having considered the U.S to have already defaulted.

 

This is why RP, and I'm glad this discussion is happening in this thread, but this is why he advocates that the philosophy of government in this country has to change in order for us to fix our economic problems. Have you listened to Ron Paul when he says this? In order to sustain a healthy economy in this country we have to define what the role of government should be, what the role of government currently is, and debate these fundamental issues that are at the root of our economic problems. No one in Washington is even interested in discussing these topics, and that's why we aren't coming to any real solutions on what needs to be done.

 

If we're interested in avoiding a default for the well being of the average citizen, we could also follow Dennis Kucinich's advice on the matter:

 

"Here is what we should do to avoid default: increase the debt ceiling with no strings attached.

"Here is how to get out of debt- End the war -- save One Trillion over ten years. Repeal tax cuts to the wealthy- Save another trillion.

"Medicare for All: end the four hundred billion yearly subsidies for health insurance industry.

"Renegotiate trade agreements with workers rights, human rights, and environmental quality principles- save millions of jobs and billions of dollars.

"The Fed creates money out of nothing and gives it to banks. Why should our country go into debt, borrowing from banks when we have the constitutional power to create money and invest in jobs?

"We can have another New Deal where we put millions to work rebuilding our bridges and transportation system.

"We can have a Works Green Administration where NASA is the incubator of jobs designing and engineering wind and solar micro technologies for private sector manufacturing, distribution, installation and maintenance in millions of homes, saving money, energy and protecting the environment.

"We are the United States of America, the greatest country on earth. We envision wealth. We don't default. We create wealth. We don't default. We build wealth. We don't default."

 

I'm a middle class citizen, my family doesn't have much money. I work and give money to my family in order for my parents to be alright, and I've lived in what would be considered poor neighborhoods my entire life. There isn't much that I don't understand about how a default would effect me and my family, but I'm not willing to sacrifice my liberty and my freedom for my well-being, especially when I know that further down the road I will be in the exact same situation or possibly much worse.

[CILONE/SK]

You obviously do not understand the consequences of a default if you think it is a better alternative to another course of action.

 

To advocate a course of action that will cause so much harm to the poor and middle class is idiotic.

 

What good is the balanced budget if people are suffering?

[Zig]

yea yea buddy i don't understand anything, go play my video-games, i heard you like twenty times in this thread. it's getting old.

[CILONE/SK]

Because you are a retard.

 

You are saying that we should drive our car into a wall and wreck it and possiblly kill people in it, because maybe at some point we might run out of gas for the car.

 

why the fuck would we willfully inflict such a damaging thing as a default intentionally, when their are other options available?

[Decyferon]

I do understand the enormity of the situation this is why the debt ceiling should be raised now so you dont default now, you then remove all those tax breaks which will start generating income into the governments bank, you cut programmes which will then be less tax payer money going out and remaining in, you also cut spending in areas like the military, keeping mooney in the bank.

 

All of that is a whole lot more productive than defaulting then trying to deal with it afterr your credit with the whole world has gone to complete shit.

 

I seriously don't think that people realise the impact of a default and down grading of credit rating (not you Zig, just a lot of America in general). It isn't so much the default that is a problem it is the AAA credit rating down grade that will kill you in the long run.

[Zig]

I do understand the enormity of the situation this is why the debt ceiling should be raised now so you dont default now, you then remove all those tax breaks which will start generating income into the governments bank, you cut programmes which will then be less tax payer money going out and remaining in, you also cut spending in areas like the military, keeping mooney in the bank.

 

All of that is a whole lot more productive than defaulting then trying to deal with it afterr your credit with the whole world has gone to complete shit.

 

I seriously don't think that people realise the impact of a default and down grading of credit rating (not you Zig, just a lot of America in general). It isn't so much the default that is a problem it is the AAA credit rating down grade that will kill you in the long run.

 

I will agree with you that something should be done for the short-term, in recognition that we don't want people all around the world to suffer, but we also need to directly confront the reasons behind why we continue to face these enormous economic crises where we are put on the brink of disaster continuously, or it will continue to occur until we no longer have any option to fix it for the short-term. Most of Washington doesn't want to address those issues, and RP is one of the very few who talks about them openly. If you can admit that, than I can admit that something should definitely be done to alleviate the current crisis and we can then work on instituting policies that revert our economy back to a healthy situation which respects the law and respects our constitution. Like I said, we should listen to RP when he brings up the fact that no one in Washington wants to discuss what the role of government should be, and what the philosophy of government should be. These discussions/debates would lead to real solutions for the instability we face.

 

And you're probably correct about your statement, I really don't think a lot of Americans understand or comprehend just how serious the situation is around them at all.

[CILONE/SK]

RP has stated that he will not vote for any bill that will raise the debt level. This just shows that he is ok with Americans suffering.

 

Letting us default is on par or worse then any terrorist attack that America has dealt with so far, when you take into consideration the amount of people it would hurt.

[angelofdeath]

Your whole argument is based on opinions, which are yours and what you believe. There is nothing to suggest that your opinions are right or wrong, since they are founded on hypothetical situations. I can say the opposite is what will happen, but there is nothing to say that I am right.

 

 

how is the accurate prediction of the housing collapse and dot com collapse by the likes of peter schiff and others of the austrian strain, 'hypothetical' situations? what more proof do you want? the examples that prove basic economic theory are countless. nixon installed price controls on gas, we had shortages. FED inflates, our dollar declines.

 

very few except the die hard marxist types are going to actually say that american rose to the top of the food chain in productivity and living standards because we had TO MUCH GOVERNMENT. it is precisely that we had a largely free economy that the country has created the wealth that it has. capitalism works. the examples of how it works are literally everywhere around you.

 

To suggest that there should be less government because that is what was in place in the past, is being extremely naive to the complexities of today's world. There us nothing to say that big business will not ruin America with it's unbridled capitalistic urges.

 

big business is just as anti capitalist as you are. they want bail outs, subsidies, monopoly privileges, protectionism, and the rest. this is not capitalism, this is corporatism. the market is much harsher on business than government. imagine if we had capitalism, all the big businesses that are 'unbridled' would no longer be bailed out and propped up by the FDIC, the bail outs, and the federal regulatory apparatus. big agri would no longer be protected from competition from smaller producers. their subsidies would be gone. the reason why most of these 'unbridled' businesses have gotten so big is because of government, not because of the market.

 

And austrian economics are surprisingly void of any kind of mathematical equations compared to other economical theories.

 

that is because austrianism studies human action, not hypothetical controlled situations on a chalk board where you need a graduate degree in math to figure them out. all those equations teach you is what will happen on that chalk board, not in the market place.

 

You like to lump people into categories like you saying I watch hanity, but the truth is I have never seen one thing from him. I have tOld you that before.

 

never said you watch him, just that you are using his reasoning. 'you are anti american if you disagree with me.'

 

 

I do not think people like you who support the debt ceiling being raised will ever be able to understand the point of, what good is balanced budget or anything else, when people are dying because they can not get medical care, they are starving because they can not afford food, and the unemployed or those working for slave wages are suffering just because companies can do make more money then they will ever need.

 

BTW I will never agree with you about the weapons thing. No need to continue that.

 

how exactly does the government, the largest most intrusive government EVER, not being allowed to borrow more money equate to people starving in the street?

the fedgov brings in 200 billion a fucking month. all they have to do is stop engaging in your peace keeping action in libya for a couple weeks and there is nothing to worry about. numerous people have proven that if we dont raise the debt ceiling, we have enough money to service the debt, send out social security checks and pay the soldiers. there is NO reason do default. if they do, they are choosing to fund research on snails in new mexico instead of servicing the debt or building bridges to no where.

 

your basic hysteria behind your points on this thread are that there is no waste in government, that all government is necessary and that we need more. this is not the case. we can trim atleast 1 trillion of the debt and no one in the US would even notice. we'd still be living under the biggest most intrusive government in the history of the world.

 

i figured you couldnt understand self defense vs murder. most libs think that the mere possession of a firearm=murder. so its not surprising.

[CILONE/SK]

 

And you're probably correct about your statement, I really don't think a lot of Americans understand or comprehend just how serious the situation is around them at all.

 

You say this, yet you want America to default because you want to deal with the problem before something else happens???

 

Like I said, you do not know what you are talking about and you are a retard.

[Zig]

RP has stated that he will not vote for any bill that will raise the debt level. This just shows that he is ok with Americans suffering.

 

Letting us default is on par or worse then any terrorist attack that America has dealt with so far, when you take into consideration the amount of people it would hurt.

 

And this is why I don't agree with RP 100% of the time like you are claiming. I completely understand why he would take that position though, it reflects his voting record accurately. He is a man of precision. Your second statement about the terrorist attack thing though is really an overstatement, and even if he did vote to not raise the debt ceiling it isn't RP's fault that we are in the situation we are in currently so you can't place the blame of a default on his shoulders. RP's policies did not put us into the economic situation we are in.

[CILONE/SK]

AOD. You make good points, but for me to provide substance to refute them, I will have to do so from my home computer and not my phone. I will be glad to when I get home or tomorrow. Unlike Zig, at least you give me something of substance to post against.

[Zig]

ahhaha get off my dick damn

[ILOTSMYBRAIN]

You obviously do not understand the consequences of a default if you think it is a better alternative to another course of action.

 

Why don't you outline the consequences and other courses of action, and compare them to what would happen if we default, o' wise one.

 

To advocate a course of action that will cause so much harm to the poor and middle class is idiotic.

 

What is already happening to the middle class? It's already being destroyed. What do you think happened with the bailouts? How about the unemployment level? Inflation?

 

What good is the balanced budget if people are suffering?

 

Dude there will always be suffering. No government policy or involvement will end this. Are you that delusional? Look at Katrina, look at how our government is handling the rescue workers that rushed down to ground zero to save people, only to be exposed to harmful chemicals that would slowly kill them years later, virtually being ignored.

 

Are you also implying that the end of America is a better solution than a portion of the population suffering? What would happen in a complete collapse? I would imagine much more wide scale suffering.

[CILONE/SK]

Zig he might not have caused them, but if he propels them, then he is just at fault. And if the default causes a depression, then it is definitely as much of a danger to America as a terrorist attack.

[angelofdeath]

the thing is it isnt about quick fixes, that is all the republican party are talking about at the moment, You need to remove ALL tax cuts that the bush administration put in place for high earners and companies. Cuts need to be made in government spending, there is no reasson for the US military to be so large, they could cut down spending on that, also there are government programmes that arent needed that can be cut I'm sure, as long as you aren't making cuts that will affect the poorest and most needy. It wont be easy for everyone, but I don't se why the rich and huge companies should be able to get away scott free while THEY expect the rest of you to suffer.

 

decy, i would respond to your other post, but this is getting to big to debate and im not sure how much further im going to debate it.. but....

 

i agree with you 100% the first place to cut is the military. the first thing we could do is stop the actions in libya, followed by bringing home troops from japan, germany, iraq, 'stan, etc. this would be an enormous benefit to the country. this wont happen. but even this wont even really address the problem. you could privatize and eliminate much of the federal government. they write literally 76,000 pages of laws PER YEAR. we have government agents shutting down kids lemonade stands and fining them. things are beyond out of control.

 

but the main point i wanted to address is the 'bush tax cuts.' eliminating the 'bush tax' cuts wouldnt even BEGIN to help solve this crisis. i fail to see how anyone keeping their own property is getting away 'scott free.' if i go to work and bring home my money, im not getting away with anything, i am within my rights. but this topic illustrates the main divide. the pro gov types think any means are ok as long as the end result is reached. crack a couple eggs to make an omelette type thinking. while i contend, you cannot violate someones rights to get what you want. we'll never agree on that so no use in trying.

 

the problem with not honestly addressing the debt issue is that it will NEVER get solved. all the cuts proposed have been on future spending INCREASES. nothing is actually cut. only in DC is a reduction in spending increases considered a CUT. the pols in DC are trying to balance the budget over 10-30 years. the problem is they wont be in office in 10-30 years. nothing binds future law makers. so any deal they come to to balance the budget over 10 years will NEVER happen. its a line in the sand right now. both sides should put up or shut up. republicans should not give in unless they get cuts. obama should find something to cut.

the problem is the pro gov types wont cut anything, even the most meaningless useless spending. the anti war crowd wont even think about voting to bring home the troops or cut funding. this is the situation we are in. nothing is going to fix anything.

 

the beauty for me is if they dont find anything to cut and keep stacking the house of cards, (debt) higher, they will collapse the government. this is probably the best outcome.

[angelofdeath]

Because you are a retard.

 

You are saying that we should drive our car into a wall and wreck it and possiblly kill people in it, because maybe at some point we might run out of gas for the car.

 

why the fuck would we willfully inflict such a damaging thing as a default intentionally, when their are other options available?

 

na, i think the analogy he is putting forth is more along these lines:

 

uncle sam is a heroine addict. addicted to debt. instead of addressing the problem of heroine addiction, the pro government types keep telling uncle sam to keep shooting dope. the people who want to solve the problem keep trying to take the heroine away. to 'raise the debt ceiling' is like giving the junky more dope

[angelofdeath]

* edit *

already covered this in a previous post

[CILONE/SK]

Lostbrain and the rest of you, to say that a default of our debt is a better alternative then the outcome of raising the debt ceiling is just plain dumb. There is no possible way the resulting interest raises, depression, and many other damaging problems it will cause, outweigh the issue of a higher debt level. To think so, just shows that you are not in touch with real world issues and are talking in hypotheticals only. If we are talk straight numbers, then you are right, we should let us default and grow strong again. But the problem is we are not just talking numbers and balance sheets, we are talking about people's life's. The damage a default will do to millions of people is not worth it if there are other options. To think that it is ok to write people lives off because we need to balance thE budget is a sign that no matter what anyone says, you will not see the light.

 

I hope each and every one of yOu who advocate not raising the budget feels the full effect of those decisions.

[CILONE/SK]

Also lostbrain, a default will be many times more damaging then Katrina and you bringing up Katrina shows you do not grasp the magnitude of a default.

[angelofdeath]

Lostbrain and the rest of you, to say that a default of our debt is a better alternative then the outcome of raising the debt ceiling is just plain dumb. There is no possible way the resulting interest raises, depression, and many other damaging problems it will cause, outweigh the issue of a higher debt level. To think so, just shows that you are not in touch with real world issues and are talking in hypotheticals only. If we are talk straight numbers, then you are right, we should let us default and grow strong again. But the problem is we are not just talking numbers and balance sheets, we are talking about people's life's. The damage a default will do to millions of people is not worth it if there are other options. To think that it is ok to write people lives off because we need to balance thE budget is a sign that no matter what anyone says, you will not see the light.

 

I hope each and every one of yOu who advocate not raising the budget feels the full effect of those decisions.

 

 

i could go on a tirade about how all these problems are problems caused by to much government. to much reliance on government. to much fiscal irresponsibility and a search for a government solution to everything, but im not.

 

the problem with your post is that you are assuming and drinking the koolaid by believing that the USG will not pay its debt if we dont allow it to borrow more. can we say ponzi scheme? since when hitting the limit on one credit card and opening a new account with a higher limit a solution to a debt problem? is the USG better off with more debt or less debt?

 

the other problem is, the USG gets 200 billion a month in $$$$. this is enough to cover everything considered essential including servicing the debt. we might have to lay off a few bureaucrats and allow them to find productive jobs at their market wage (below legislative minimum wage presumably) and we might have to stop lobbing bombs at civilians from predator drones, BUT the USG does not have to default.

 

im curious as to what you think would really happen if the US did default and how exactly this would affect me. please lay it out, should be an interesting read.

 

by not addressing this issue now, but not cutting spending, but keeping the charade going.... the catastrophe that is INEVITABLE due to government's fiscal recklessness, will be a true TEOTWAWKI situation, not just a simple situation of a lost job. we will have riots in the streets, break down of society, etc.

thankfully, im self reliant enough to have prepared for such situations. unlike most other sheeple. they would rather wait for their hand outs than to provide for themselves and take the necessary steps to be prepared for the inevitable.

[Zig]

stop being a retard aod

[CILONE/SK]

AOD, you are making my point, you are talking about the level of debt, when we should be talking about the damages of not raising the ceiling.

 

You have valid points, but can you say honestly that we should let the default happen in a few days?

[Decyferon]

AOD I know you hate taxes, Im more talking the taxes of the super rich corporations that get huge tax breaks, not to mention without taxes the US would be truely fuck with no way of generating any income and with your debt you would be screwed. I dont want this to descend into another pro/anti tax discussion though and I'm sure you don't either.

[CILONE/SK]

:lol: Zig, your mother is a whore.

[Decyferon]

I would also like to point out that as an outside observer I would actually like to see what would happen if a default happened, not to see the American people suffer but the repercusssions on government and business, however as a US default would indirectly affecct me I dont want it to happen.

 

pure voyeur status here haha