Ron Paul Revolution!!!!

[boogie hands]

seriously, your acting like there are no nuances to this candidate and i have to be either 100% against him or 100% for him. im not glossing over the positives. if you want me to jump in the circle jerk with you guys i can certainly talk about how much i like his views on foreign matters but i think this thread has quite enough positivity. im simply trying to point out the fact that he isnt this golden god that this rabid internet fanbase is making him out to be. hes a politician and has been for quite sometime. id be careful not to forget that.

[lord_casek]

maybe you're right to treat every politician as suspect until proven innocent. i do think dr. paul has an impeccable record, though.

[angelofdeath]

"im simply trying to point out the fact that he isnt this golden god that this rabid internet fanbase is making him out to be."

 

i just happen to think his record is 100% golden. the only two issues i have ever had with the guy when he sponsored a federal amendment stating life begins at conception, (im pro life, but take a 100% antifederalist stance on the issue) and you could possibly make a case for him supporting the government regulating drug prices in medicare. his argument is that they already are spending the money, might as well let them get the best price. i agree with him now on this.

 

other than that, his record is more consistent than thomas jefferson's. there is nothing more to say in my view. if he was an athiest or a jew, i could care less. i tend to take a truly diverse perspective on people. i believe there is only individuals, not groups of people. individuals are the only ones with rights. not just white christians or black athiests. i hold no ones religion against them until proven otherwise. its not like bill clinton, jesse jackson, hillary and obama havent done any stumping from the pulpit, if you get my drift. they just dont get attacked by the left because they fit thier socialist world view.

[fermentor666]

Hey, if you're all for breaking up the union, then so be it. But the rest of the country ain't going to be ok with it. And no, I don't mean that banning abortion would break up the union, but annihilating the IRS and leaving everything up to the individual states would led to the breakdown of the U.S., plus mass-poverty and even more crumbling infrastructure and the total annihilation of the education system in the poorer states.

 

And that's why Ron Paul doesn't stand a chance in hell of becoming elected, ever. No one in the poorer states would stand for his domestic policy of literally leaving them stranded to fend for themselves, like some sick form of Social Darwinism. The Nazis tried out Social Darwinism and it didn't work. Not that Paul is a Nazi or anything, but still. I could do without Texas, and maybe Oklahoma, but I happen to like the United States and if you completely eliminate the IRS then we're fucked. If you want to deny it, lemme re-iterate that you're wrong, and your anger is mis-guided. It might seem cool and hip to hate the IRS and hate the federal government, but we'll all be drowning in shit otherwise. Again, most of this pro-Ron Paul shit is either coming from people who live in states that are fiscally sound or from idiot anarchists.

 

But his foreign policy is still probably the best in the Republican field.

 

I'm not debating this any further.

[fermentor666]

Oh, and Thomas Jefferson was a far greater man even if you consider the fact that he owned slaves. Ron Paul's writings and speeches are so filled with contempt and hate and have none of the eloquence of Jefferson's writing. Jefferson helped to create this country and everything for which it stands. Ron Paul seems to want to tear it apart.

[fermentor666]

And btw casek, you are so full of shit talking about eugenics.

[lord_casek]

And btw casek, you are so full of shit talking about eugenics.

 

 

no, i am not.

[lord_casek]

Hey, if you're all for breaking up the union, then so be it. But the rest of the country ain't going to be ok with it. And no, I don't mean that banning abortion would break up the union, but annihilating the IRS and leaving everything up to the individual states would led to the breakdown of the U.S., plus mass-poverty and even more crumbling infrastructure and the total annihilation of the education system in the poorer states.

 

And that's why Ron Paul doesn't stand a chance in hell of becoming elected, ever. No one in the poorer states would stand for his domestic policy of literally leaving them stranded to fend for themselves, like some sick form of Social Darwinism. The Nazis tried out Social Darwinism and it didn't work. Not that Paul is a Nazi or anything, but still. I could do without Texas, and maybe Oklahoma, but I happen to like the United States and if you completely eliminate the IRS then we're fucked. If you want to deny it, lemme re-iterate that you're wrong, and your anger is mis-guided. It might seem cool and hip to hate the IRS and hate the federal government, but we'll all be drowning in shit otherwise. Again, most of this pro-Ron Paul shit is either coming from people who live in states that are fiscally sound or from idiot anarchists.

 

But his foreign policy is still probably the best in the Republican field.

 

I'm not debating this any further.

 

maybe you don't recall this or were never taught this, but there was a time in our coutnries history when we had no IRS.

[angelofdeath]

haha, 10 bucks says after fermentor reads my response the debate WILL continue.

 

given the fact that thomas jefferson declared secession from the british empire, supported secession of sovereign states, nullification and interposition of federal laws by the states, believed that taxes were stealing from the mouths of labor, advocated armed resistance against a tyrannical governments, believed in the absolute right to bear arms, believed in free trade and a small of government as humanely possible, and that ron paul mirrors him on all these same issues.... your analysis is totally ass backwards.

 

im quite positive that if the welfare checks ever stopped flowing, there would be riots. ron paul is not in favor of 'social darwinism' he is in favor of freedom, something which you hold in utter contempt.

 

the US had no means of collecting taxes from its citizens until 1913 other than import tariffs, brief periods of whiskey taxes and excise taxes on land sales and perhaps a couple others. income tax withholding wasnt even though of until 1943 and then the bastards said it was gonna be 'temporary.' yeah, withholding, a temporary wartime measure since 19f'ing43.

 

since im not in a state that is fiscally sound and im not an 'idiot' anarchist (isnt that what they used to call domestic 'terrorists' and 'enemy combatants' during ww1 who protested the war?) again, you are wrong.

 

if thomas jefferson or even his arch rival, alexander hamilton could see the federal government today, they would be the first people to pledge thier lives, fortunes and sacred honor and send the declaration of independence to the halls of congress and refuse to follow any unconstitutional laws.

 

i love it when people hear the idea of freedom and federalism that they think society will instantaneously collapse. what you are advocating is simply living off of other people through coerced tax collections. people think that people everyone will be eating dirt if there was freedom instead of a welfare state. total annihilation of the education system is a wonderful thing. all that is taught is that governments are benevolent and businesses create oppression, atm fees are too high but taxes are too low, all men are rapists, guns kill people, that the government can cure every ill for every person, that art didnt exist before federal funding, and i could go on. these youth propaghanda camps are what keeps america's youth as believers in the fuhrer like state that is the US government.

 

heaven forbid if the people had more liberty. they might even have to *gasp* work for a living! they might have to *gasp* handle thier own business! they might have to *gasp* raise thier own families! OMG@!@&$ DOOOOOOOD!

 

lets see what thomas jefferson would have done in times like these... considering he advocated armed revolt for independence over a miniscule set of taxes that pale in comparison to today... and that midevil serfs were only paying 25% to thier lords.... (we pay upwards of 50% in taxes if you count inflation)

jefferson might of helped to write something like this:

 

IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

 

 

 

hen in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

 

 

 

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

 

 

 

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

 

 

 

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

 

 

 

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

 

 

 

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

 

 

 

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

 

 

 

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

 

 

 

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

 

 

 

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

 

 

 

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

 

 

 

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

 

 

 

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

 

 

 

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.

 

 

 

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

 

 

 

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

 

 

 

For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

 

 

 

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

 

 

 

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

 

 

 

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

 

 

 

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

 

 

 

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies

 

 

 

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

 

 

 

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

 

 

 

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

 

 

 

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

 

 

 

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

 

 

 

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

 

 

 

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

 

 

 

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

 

 

 

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

 

 

 

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. — And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

[lord_casek]

<applause>

 

this is the reason that you are one of a handful of

people whose posts i like to read.

[fermentor666]

Too bad I didn't read your response. I know exactly what your arguments are and I still believe my opinion to be valid.

 

casek: Since you haven't actually explained how you think eugenics ties into abortion, I'm going to assume that you think there is some huge conspiracy to use abortions to weed minorities out the genetic pool or some such ludicrous bullshit.

[fermentor666]

maybe you don't recall this or were never taught this, but there was a time in our coutnries history when we had no IRS.

 

 

Yeah, that was before the Civil War and before the creation of any sort of public hospitals, social security, welfare, pavement, highways, gigantic standing armies, space exploration, etc. etc.

 

A great example of why we need taxes would be space exploration, as private companies haven't even come close--except for that one company that offers a person 5 minutes in space for thousands of dollars. But I suppose you think the moon landing was fake, as well.

[angelofdeath]

HAHA! have you seen what happens in space exploration? do you know how much money is literally thrown down the toilet with space exploration? have you been awake for the last 40 years? space exploration is the perfect example of why governments shouldnt be in space.

[lord_casek]

hell, apparently fermentor doesn't even know that our federal taxes don't go to anything

that is in our country, they go to pay off the interest on national debt.

[lord_casek]

Too bad I didn't read your response. I know exactly what your arguments are and I still believe my opinion to be valid.

 

casek: Since you haven't actually explained how you think eugenics ties into abortion, I'm going to assume that you think there is some huge conspiracy to use abortions to weed minorities out the genetic pool or some such ludicrous bullshit.

 

 

 

actually, i know that is why abortion is such a large part of our culture now.

as are many other things. all part of the grand design.

[El Mamerro]

Just wanted to chime in to say that as wasteful as space exploration might sound, it's probably one of the most important endeavors human beings have ever and will ever undertake, and should never be sacrificed at the expense of something else. It's sad to see how few people realize this.

 

Until private companies have enough of an economic incentive to really pump in the billions needed to do it, the government's gonna have to foot the bill.

[angelofdeath]

"Until private companies have enough of an economic incentive to really pump in the billions needed to do it, the government's gonna have to foot the bill."

 

i just think that is a horrible, horrible argument. especially since the government doesnt have any money at all, except which it robs from its citizens.

[El Mamerro]

Simply put, space exploration is a necessity. It's gotta be done, and it's gotta be done by whoever has the resources.

 

If anyone has them besides the government, I'd be more than happy to see them take over. NASA's run pretty ineptly as it is.

[fermentor666]

HAHA! have you seen what happens in space exploration? do you know how much money is literally thrown down the toilet with space exploration? have you been awake for the last 40 years? space exploration is the perfect example of why governments shouldnt be in space.

 

 

Yeah, I've seen what has happened with space exploration and it's incredible. I don't know how you can look at some of the pictures from the Mars rovers, that have lasted years beyond their expected lifespan, and pictures from Hubble, which has also lasted years beyond its expected lifespan, and not be amazed. Clearly, you lack any sort of imagination and have no capacity for anything other than your stupid little politics.

[fermentor666]

hell, apparently fermentor doesn't even know that our federal taxes don't go to anything

that is in our country, they go to pay off the interest on national debt.

 

 

 

You're wrong.

[fermentor666]

actually, i know that is why abortion is such a large part of our culture now.

as are many other things. all part of the grand design.

 

 

You're crazy.

[lord_casek]

maybe i thin you're crazy for not knowing this.

it is easily provable. that's because the people

in very high places write books and make speeches.

they brag about it.

 

the general public doesn't bother learning about the rockefeller dynasty.

no one cares about where bill and melinda are pushing their big bucks.

no one in the general public even knows that ted turner made a speech

on cspan calling us "useless feeders."

 

if we payed alittle more attention, we would all see that they are there.

the people you like to call me a conspiracy theorist for knowing about

are very, very real.

[fermentor666]

Abortion is not mandatory, remember that. Rich people get abortions, smart people get abortions, stupid people get abortions, etc. It has nothing to do with eugenics. And I looked into your Ted Turner claim, all I found for evidence was a handful of message board postings simply stating that he said it while talking about Zionist conspiracies and the Illuminati, so you're going to have to do a little better than that. Bill and Melinda Gates are not putting money into abortions. Your web of conspiracies couldn't catch a fly when you put it all together. No one is using abortions to weed out the unwanted. The Nazis used eugenics when they euthanized people with mental disorders and physical deficiencies, and it was forced. No one is forcing anyone to have abortions. I am pro-choice and I will defend that stance till the day I die. I've had friends who have had abortions and there is NO WAY they could have raised a kid, no fucking way, without it being completely fucked. Instead of getting by alright with decent jobs, they would find themselves in poverty.

 

And sure, SOME of our taxes go towards paying the national debt, but why do you think we have that debt in the first place? From paying for all the programs I mentioned and more in the first place. So therefore, our federal taxes go towards those programs, whether you like it or not. And so even if all of our federal taxes go towards paying off only debts (which is untrue), then if you take them away what the fuck is going to pay the debts off? Monopoly money?

 

And our space program has been VERY successful with some very key, successful missions happening very recently, like the success of the Cassini probe/orbiter to Saturn. If you aren't for space programs (maybe this doesn't apply to you, casek), then you are a regressive grunt with no spirit or soul. Some of the most amazing, exciting, and breath-taking space observations have occurred within the last 5-10 years, stuff that dreams are made out of. I URGE you to go buy one of those big picture books of the universe of images from the Hubble, and you will be blown away. We are moving with great leaps and bounds into space exploration and to de-fund it would equate to the epitome of mediocrity and blandness.

 

 

 

I used various combinations of "ted turner", "useless feeders" and "CSPAN" and nothing came up, buddy. Find me video, if it was broadcast. I doubt that a man smart enough to create a media empire would say something like that on national television. I don't have any love for the guy and I think CNN is horseshit, but you're pulling at straws.

[lord_casek]

i didn't say bill and melinda are putting money into abortions. eugenics.

 

"A total world population of 250-300 million people, a 95% decline from present levels, would be ideal."

Ted Turner, in an interview with Audubon magazine.

[fermentor666]

Provide me a link, I did a Google search and came up with nothing that supports your claim.

 

Anyway, isn't "useless feeders" kind of an oxymoron? "Feeders" have a use; their use is to feed. It does not make sense that a man of his intelligence would say something as stupid as that.

[vanfullofretards]

Yeah, I've seen what has happened with space exploration and it's incredible. I don't know how you can look at some of the pictures from the Mars rovers, that have lasted years beyond their expected lifespan.

 

Weren't those solar panels made by a private company?. I bet most of the parts were.

[lord_casek]

Provide me a link, I did a Google search and came up with nothing that supports your claim.

 

Anyway, isn't "useless feeders" kind of an oxymoron? "Feeders" have a use; their use is to feed. It does not make sense that a man of his intelligence would say something as stupid as that.

 

 

 

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_16_15/ai_54543048

 

useless feeders implies we are just walking the earth eating their food.

 

taking up space.

 

http://www.waragainsttheweak.com/

[WORDISM45]

i would take 'useless feeders' to mean that they are useless beyond the role in which they 'feed' resources into the hands of the elites.

 

 

casek in all seriousness what the fuck is wrong with saying the ideal population of earth is 300 million people? DO you not agree that the world is overpopulated with humans and that we are destroying it for not only ourselves but non-human animals and future generations?

 

until fossil fuels were made available for consumption the world population was always under a billion people for our entire history. in the hundred years since then it has gotten 6 times bigger and another billion people will be in this world in 12 years then 6 years after that another. Whats gonna happen to everyone when there isnt cheap energy anymore and a hundred million people all living in a city that doesnt produce any food cant get millions of tonnes of food transported in every day?

 

Im not saying we should go and kill poor people or any shit like that but i think there needs to be a massive shift in humanitys social conscience towards conservation and population control in terms of not having 8 kids and instead having one or maybe two and actually rasing them well and putting all your parentakl resources into them.

[angelofdeath]

"And sure, SOME of our taxes go towards paying the national debt, but why do you think we have that debt in the first place? From paying for all the programs I mentioned and more in the first place. So therefore, our federal taxes go towards those programs, whether you like it or not. And so even if all of our federal taxes go towards paying off only debts (which is untrue), then if you take them away what the fuck is going to pay the debts off? Monopoly money?"

 

monopoly money is what pays off our debts right now. fiat money is backed by nothing but the FED buying US treasury bonds and putting zero's in congresses accounts. its no different than monopoly money that uncle sam has told everyone they must use for exchanges.

that is one way we pay for a miniscule portion of our debts. another way to pay for debts is borrowing money. considering that china basically finances most of our borrowing, that is also where alot of money comes from. thirdly national income taxes doesnt even pay the interest on the national debt. tariffs on steel and sugar is another revenue source. we send billions of dollars overseas. we send billions of dollars for crazy boondoggle wars that have nothing to do with national defense. we spend billions of dollars on ponzi scheme social programs that keep generations bogged down with incentives to not work, not raise a family, not take care of there kids and not be productive. the welfare warfare state is not some great benevolent creature. a government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you have. and it has. it has taken most liberties that we fought in 1775 to retain. wishing for a state that does only good things is like wishing for a lion that only purrs and cuddles.

 

but lets face facts, there is no way taxes can pay off our debts. spending, departments, bureaucrats, programs must be cut to get rid of this deficit. in fact i propose that all debts SHOULD be paid with taxes that way, if taxes were raised 200% we'd see just how happy americans are with this debt. then something might be done about the whole problem of this renegade, decieving government in DC.

[angelofdeath]

"

casek in all seriousness what the fuck is wrong with saying the ideal population of earth is 300 million people? DO you not agree that the world is overpopulated with humans and that we are destroying it for not only ourselves but non-human animals and future generations?

"

 

i think the problem with this is that the left dwells on over population. what is the logical extension of this? perhaps what communist china does with abortions. perhaps killing some people. yet all these great and brave lefties who bring forth the necessity of reducing the human population all have it within thier capacity to reduce the population by one, yet i dont see any of them acting on it.

its horrible when you hear scientists say things like... 'as soon as we eliminate all the people from the earth, things start to look better.'