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srebmun

Governator Announces Universal Health Coverage Plan

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cuz i think you take the whole individualist thing too far. Can you please tell me what is wrong with universal healthcare, it's something everyone is oging to use in their lives, and yes although it is funded by coercive taxation it's one of the basic living necessities that i think warrant financial redistribution

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i've had this argument not to long ago, but simply put... socialism cant calculate.

you cannot calculate profit and loss and proper resource allocation in this universal healthcare system. it is inefficient, lacks the proper incentive, ends up costing way more for service, etc.

 

what people need is free market medicine and a variety of services. similar to car repair. you have places that provide cheap but decide repair, like a midas, and you have places that go above and beyond like the lexus dealership. we need a midas sort of doctor and a lexus dealership doctor/hospital. we also need that great 4 dollar a prescription drug plan from walmart. this is the proper way to help people. giving them cheap prices on essential items. this is the free market at work.

 

another problem with any 'free' service is that it is ripe for abuse, which in turn damages the system and makes it so people with a real problem get horrible service. people who get a shallow cut will be flocking for 'free service' and clogging everything up for the person who needs 90 stitches. its sort of like how when someone gets 7 weeks of sick days at work, you sure do get 'sick' an awful lot. every morning when you wake up and get a sniffle you will call out. the same is true with universal healthcare. and you only need to look at waiting lists in canada and england for the 16 week wait for heart surgery or the 4 month wait to get a tooth pulled. if you have ever been to the department of motor vehicles, you'll understand how this great universal healthcare system will work.

 

not to mention, (which i see you didnt want to bring up) the whole peter robbing paul to pay david deal.

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i've had this argument not to long ago, but simply put... socialism cant calculate.

you cannot calculate profit and loss and proper resource allocation in this universal healthcare system. it is inefficient, lacks the proper incentive, ends up costing way more for service, etc.

 

Then why are the total costs for healthcare per person higher in the US than countries with socialized medicine? I would argue that our system is much less efficient.

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Then why are the total costs for healthcare per person higher in the US than countries with socialized medicine? I would argue that our system is much less efficient.

 

Take a look at Canada. Our universal healthcare is in shambles. Wait lists are months long. There aren't enough beds, etc. The only situation that socialist healthcare can work in is the oil rich scandanavian countries that can subsidize it with their oil large oil revenues.

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yes, but canada is also gigantic compared to scandinavian countries. look at it on a per capita basis. i don't know the actual figures, but i'm sure the wealth distribution is alot better in a place like norway than canada.

 

 

 

in australia we have socialised health care. it covers general practitioners (ie - your family doctor/clinic) as well as most tests (blood/xrays etc), and all inpatient services (and related outpatient services) at public hospitals, emergency or elective (excluding cosmetic procedures). meaning if you're in a car accident, you can get taken to a public hospital, have all the operations you need, be in icu for however long, and by the end of it not have to reach in your wallet once.

 

there are waiting lists for elective surgeries, this is true. let's face it, there are alot less beds than citizens. where this is alleviated, however, is with the private sector. private health insurance's primary focus is covering the things the public system doesn't (specialist consultations, non medical outpatient services such as chiro, physio, natural therapies, dental etc etc) and elective surgeries at private facilities. private cover is affordable to most people, even those on a low income, and is quite effective.

 

does the public system lose money? most definately. but where people often make a mistake is when they judge the health system's performance by the dollars and cents made at the actual point of service. this is wrong. the success (and profit) of your health system is measured by the health and well being of your citizens, who are able to spend more time at work (with more citizens gainfully employed and not burdening the state) and able to contribute more to the country's economy (read: tax dollars).

 

 

and at the end of the day, isn't it nice to know that your tax dollars are being spent on at least one thing that is worthwhile and actually benefits you?

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"Then why are the total costs for healthcare per person higher in the US than countries with socialized medicine? I would argue that our system is much less efficient."

 

it is because we are dealing with socialized medicine in the US and not free market medicine. allow me to illustrate on a crude illustration, on a scale, what the dilly is.

 

socialized medicine....................(center)...........................free market medicine.

_________________________^ __the US health care system is about right here.

 

prices are high because of government interference, regulation and red tape.

they are high because of socialism not capitalism.

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Sounds like a cop out AOD. Tell me what about our system is socialized and how it leads to higher costs. Also, you did not answer why costs are higher in our system than fully socialized systems.

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costs are higher, because socialism cannot calculate. it misallocates resources because it doesnt accurately compute supply and demand. in a socialized system the medicine is 'free' so it is 'cheaper' but the unseen costs are rediculous.

 

our system is a comglomerate of state/business merged companies, cost regulations and a myriad of other regulations, price ceilings, taxes, etc. this is not a capitalist medicine system. it is a quasi capitalist system, with severe socialist influence.

 

the free market DRIVES down prices, as witnessed by falling prices all throughout the 19th century. it is no coincidence that sectors like clothing and electronics with little government interference experience fallling prices, actually nose diving prices, but sectors like electricity, medicine, etc all with over government regulation all have super high prices.

 

there is no more of a 'right' to tax funded (stolen money) healthcare than there is a right for people to have tax funded food.

 

healthcare isnt as critical as food or water. i'd submit, if you really want to help humanity, where is the food and water insurance?!!?!?!?! for shits sake, get with the program!!

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well said abracadabra

 

yeah the food and water insurance is called the dole AOD i'm not sure how it works in the USA but over here you get plenty enough for food and watr from the government every week. It' also somehting called student aid which heaps of fuckwit lazy useless socialist students get that pays for their accomodation and lattes so they can sit aroudn at uni all day not gonig to class and think theyre changing the world.

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"actually benefits you?"

 

universal healthcare isnt benefitting me. i havent had the need to go the doctor in over 5 years. i dont go to the doc, everytime i have a sniffle, or a little sore throat. i have health insurance. i pay for it.

just like i pay for my food, electricity, clothing, guns, ammo, cars, trucks, tractors, etc.

 

so, no it doesnt benefit me.

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well it benefits a fuckload of less well off people there needs to eb soem equity in a system man id rather see wealthier people paying some tax that goes to healthcare for poor people rather than seeing said poor people dying in the streets and in their homes because they can't afford an operation.

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hah haha

 

I hear you can basically hop on a plane to Norway and be supported by the government. Welfare, education, healthcare... thats what happens when you have a few offshore oilrigs and barely any population.

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"seeing said poor people dying in the streets and in their homes because they can't afford an operation."

 

i think food, water, and clothing is much more essential to 80% of the population than healthcare. if there is a case for sovietized anything, it is for this. people are dying because of long waits in sovietized medicine systems.

 

what needs to be done is prices need to come down. then medicine will be bought just like food and water.

 

walmart is already providing 4$ a month prescriptions. this is the market at work. i love it.

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damn son, you are getting rooked. are you on some serious meds? do you need mad operations?

 

you need to check into a better plan.

 

I have Crohn's disease. I need to take Remicaid. The only way it can be administered is intravenously. The medicine itself costs less than 5 grand, but the hospital costs are more. We tried all of the cheaper medicines, but they didn't work. If this one stops working, I'm fucked.

 

You say you don't need a doctor. That's good for you, and it was for me before I got sick. I didn't need universal health care before that either.

 

If you get cancer, you can tell me how your insurance stops paying and you have to put up a couple hundred grand just to survive.

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"seeing said poor people dying in the streets and in their homes because they can't afford an operation."

 

i think food, water, and clothing is much more essential to 80% of the population than healthcare. if there is a case for sovietized anything, it is for this. people are dying because of long waits in sovietized medicine systems.

 

what needs to be done is prices need to come down. then medicine will be bought just like food and water.

 

walmart is already providing 4$ a month prescriptions. this is the market at work. i love it.

 

You obviously don't understand how medicine works. I don't have time to get into it, but do your own research. Free market policies that work in technology sectors don't work for health care. The reason being, is that the free market wants to sell products, not health. In fact, health is not a money maker in the free market, sickness, especially chronic sickness, is. It is already that way now. If the product is health, the free market does a piss poor job of providing it, socialized medicine does a good job. There are numerous studies that prove this, you can find them I am sure. Show me a study that shows that free market medicine equals a healthy society.

 

By the way, where's your proof that people are dying waiting for procedures in countries with socialized medicine? I've heard that before, but nobody has ever showed me any stats. Sounds like propaganda to me.

 

And if you think medicine can be bought like food and water, then you understand little to nothing about the health care system, or how drugs are developed and brought to market.

 

The prescriptions that Walmart is selling for $4 are old out of patent medicines. They are not saving any lives.

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Typical AOD defenses here, "I don't get sick, so other people don't either."

 

Buddy, I have top health insurance under my father's plan he gets at work and I still had to wait two months to get surgery two years ago, two months of horrible pain. I went to the emergency room last year because I thought I had appendicitis, I woke up in so much pain I could barely move. I spent eight hours in there, about thirty minutes of that was spent with doctors. The rest was sitting around waiting.

 

Your opinion of people is so pathetically low that you think everyone who recieves welfare uses it to buy lotto tickets and everyone who would get free healthcare would go to top surgeons every time they coughed. My girlfriend is still trying to pay off a $700+ emergancy room visit from a year ago. She broke her thumb two months ago and last week she received a $400 bill from the orthopedist for the two splints he gave her. She works retail and has a shit plan with a thousand dollar deductable that doesn't even cover psychiatric or fertility.

 

Meanwhile, while my friend was unemployed he couldn't find work for long enough that he became eligable for Massachusett's free health plan (not the universal plan they legislated last year, that's not operational yet). He has a list of clinics he can go to and does not experience these imaginary long lines you believe exist. He gets to see a psychologist for free. He got a job, now he is no longer eligable and will have to pay out of his paycheck for his work's plan.

 

The free health insurance he had was better than the one my girlfriend recieves. And she works for Whole Foods, and Whole Foods offers free health insurance. Your views on this subject are so warped, wrong, and predictable. You have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to this stuff. You call universal health insurance "socialism", and it only helps solidify your 12oz reputation as a nutcase redneck. Now I'm pretty sure that you're not actually a redneck and maybe not a nutcase, and I do believe that you are a hard working American with a fair amount of political knowledge. But you seem to be incapable of connecting the dots, thinking beyond stereotypes, and developing original thought. The shit you're saying is textbook redneck blogger shit.

 

Just had some house guests for a week, friends of my girl's from Louisiana who had gone to Nova Scotia for a school program last summer. Up there, one of them got sick and went to the emergancy room. The visit? Free. The medication she needed? Two prescriptions for a total of $60 Canadian dollars. In this country, she'd have owed about 500-700 US dollars. You don't get sick? Never been to the doctor? Great, you're lucky. But you're in the minority.

 

Another thing, this is a state decision, not a federal one. Isn't that what you want? States to be able to decide? You say, if one state decides to make abortions illegal, that's fine, just move out. I'm guessing you live in California, since you previously told me you live in a state as liberal as mine. So just move, if you don't like it. Move to another state. Move to Montana, join a militia. Start your own hospital.

 

 

You want hospitals to be just like retail stores? One place is too pricey, so you go to the cheaper hospital, right. Well this ain't like K-Mart where the same 12-pack of Bounty paper towels is three dollars cheaper than at the local grocery. Would you rather have heart surgery in Mexico or in Massachusetts? Discount hospitals are a fucking terrible suggestion.

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If you get cancer, you can tell me how your insurance stops paying and you have to put up a couple hundred grand just to survive.

 

 

 

Something tells me AOD believes is a guy who believes in "survival of the fittest" and believes that he is the fittest, and will never get cancer or any other life-threatening disease. Perhaps I'm being a little bit accusatory, but I'm drawing from the attitude he has.

 

 

 

And BTW, I'm not a Schwarzenegger-the-politician fan. He's a joke, and that whole election turned California into a laughing stock. I can barely take anything that comes out of that state seriously. He was fucking killer in "The Terminator", though.

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aod, let's put it this way;

 

you haven't had to have any major (or even minor) medical treatment at this point in your life. well, it's not really suprising considering you probably haven't even reached your 30's yet. in australia at this point in my life i have at least got back what i have invested with my taxes what with bone grafts etc that i've had to have so far. and all that stuff was done before i hit 23.

 

let's say you have a heart attack at 55 (entirely plausible these days). that one treatment in a hospital (we'll say a triple bypass) just got back every dollar you invested in your taxes over your working lifetime. congratulations, socialised healthcare just paid off in your favour

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