srebmun Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/01/09/america/web.0109calif.php How democratic of him, maybe he's not so bad after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelofdeath Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 let me add this to the list of why i HATE him. he is a liberal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WORDISM45 Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 cuz i think you take the whole individualist thing too far. Can you please tell me what is wrong with universal healthcare, it's something everyone is oging to use in their lives, and yes although it is funded by coercive taxation it's one of the basic living necessities that i think warrant financial redistribution Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelofdeath Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 i've had this argument not to long ago, but simply put... socialism cant calculate. you cannot calculate profit and loss and proper resource allocation in this universal healthcare system. it is inefficient, lacks the proper incentive, ends up costing way more for service, etc. what people need is free market medicine and a variety of services. similar to car repair. you have places that provide cheap but decide repair, like a midas, and you have places that go above and beyond like the lexus dealership. we need a midas sort of doctor and a lexus dealership doctor/hospital. we also need that great 4 dollar a prescription drug plan from walmart. this is the proper way to help people. giving them cheap prices on essential items. this is the free market at work. another problem with any 'free' service is that it is ripe for abuse, which in turn damages the system and makes it so people with a real problem get horrible service. people who get a shallow cut will be flocking for 'free service' and clogging everything up for the person who needs 90 stitches. its sort of like how when someone gets 7 weeks of sick days at work, you sure do get 'sick' an awful lot. every morning when you wake up and get a sniffle you will call out. the same is true with universal healthcare. and you only need to look at waiting lists in canada and england for the 16 week wait for heart surgery or the 4 month wait to get a tooth pulled. if you have ever been to the department of motor vehicles, you'll understand how this great universal healthcare system will work. not to mention, (which i see you didnt want to bring up) the whole peter robbing paul to pay david deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russell jones Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 i've had this argument not to long ago, but simply put... socialism cant calculate. you cannot calculate profit and loss and proper resource allocation in this universal healthcare system. it is inefficient, lacks the proper incentive, ends up costing way more for service, etc. Then why are the total costs for healthcare per person higher in the US than countries with socialized medicine? I would argue that our system is much less efficient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenHarper Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Then why are the total costs for healthcare per person higher in the US than countries with socialized medicine? I would argue that our system is much less efficient. Take a look at Canada. Our universal healthcare is in shambles. Wait lists are months long. There aren't enough beds, etc. The only situation that socialist healthcare can work in is the oil rich scandanavian countries that can subsidize it with their oil large oil revenues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russell jones Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Canada has a lot more oil than Scandinavian countries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abracadabra Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 yes, but canada is also gigantic compared to scandinavian countries. look at it on a per capita basis. i don't know the actual figures, but i'm sure the wealth distribution is alot better in a place like norway than canada. in australia we have socialised health care. it covers general practitioners (ie - your family doctor/clinic) as well as most tests (blood/xrays etc), and all inpatient services (and related outpatient services) at public hospitals, emergency or elective (excluding cosmetic procedures). meaning if you're in a car accident, you can get taken to a public hospital, have all the operations you need, be in icu for however long, and by the end of it not have to reach in your wallet once. there are waiting lists for elective surgeries, this is true. let's face it, there are alot less beds than citizens. where this is alleviated, however, is with the private sector. private health insurance's primary focus is covering the things the public system doesn't (specialist consultations, non medical outpatient services such as chiro, physio, natural therapies, dental etc etc) and elective surgeries at private facilities. private cover is affordable to most people, even those on a low income, and is quite effective. does the public system lose money? most definately. but where people often make a mistake is when they judge the health system's performance by the dollars and cents made at the actual point of service. this is wrong. the success (and profit) of your health system is measured by the health and well being of your citizens, who are able to spend more time at work (with more citizens gainfully employed and not burdening the state) and able to contribute more to the country's economy (read: tax dollars). and at the end of the day, isn't it nice to know that your tax dollars are being spent on at least one thing that is worthwhile and actually benefits you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelofdeath Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 "Then why are the total costs for healthcare per person higher in the US than countries with socialized medicine? I would argue that our system is much less efficient." it is because we are dealing with socialized medicine in the US and not free market medicine. allow me to illustrate on a crude illustration, on a scale, what the dilly is. socialized medicine....................(center)...........................free market medicine. _________________________^ __the US health care system is about right here. prices are high because of government interference, regulation and red tape. they are high because of socialism not capitalism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russell jones Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 Sounds like a cop out AOD. Tell me what about our system is socialized and how it leads to higher costs. Also, you did not answer why costs are higher in our system than fully socialized systems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelofdeath Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 costs are higher, because socialism cannot calculate. it misallocates resources because it doesnt accurately compute supply and demand. in a socialized system the medicine is 'free' so it is 'cheaper' but the unseen costs are rediculous. our system is a comglomerate of state/business merged companies, cost regulations and a myriad of other regulations, price ceilings, taxes, etc. this is not a capitalist medicine system. it is a quasi capitalist system, with severe socialist influence. the free market DRIVES down prices, as witnessed by falling prices all throughout the 19th century. it is no coincidence that sectors like clothing and electronics with little government interference experience fallling prices, actually nose diving prices, but sectors like electricity, medicine, etc all with over government regulation all have super high prices. there is no more of a 'right' to tax funded (stolen money) healthcare than there is a right for people to have tax funded food. healthcare isnt as critical as food or water. i'd submit, if you really want to help humanity, where is the food and water insurance?!!?!?!?! for shits sake, get with the program!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russell jones Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 You live on just a few dollars a day to pay for food and water. My medicine costs about $5000 a month. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WORDISM45 Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 well said abracadabra yeah the food and water insurance is called the dole AOD i'm not sure how it works in the USA but over here you get plenty enough for food and watr from the government every week. It' also somehting called student aid which heaps of fuckwit lazy useless socialist students get that pays for their accomodation and lattes so they can sit aroudn at uni all day not gonig to class and think theyre changing the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viperface Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 oil rich scandanavian countries hah haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelofdeath Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 damn son, you are getting rooked. are you on some serious meds? do you need mad operations? you need to check into a better plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelofdeath Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 "actually benefits you?" universal healthcare isnt benefitting me. i havent had the need to go the doctor in over 5 years. i dont go to the doc, everytime i have a sniffle, or a little sore throat. i have health insurance. i pay for it. just like i pay for my food, electricity, clothing, guns, ammo, cars, trucks, tractors, etc. so, no it doesnt benefit me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WORDISM45 Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 well it benefits a fuckload of less well off people there needs to eb soem equity in a system man id rather see wealthier people paying some tax that goes to healthcare for poor people rather than seeing said poor people dying in the streets and in their homes because they can't afford an operation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenHarper Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 hah haha I hear you can basically hop on a plane to Norway and be supported by the government. Welfare, education, healthcare... thats what happens when you have a few offshore oilrigs and barely any population. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelofdeath Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 "seeing said poor people dying in the streets and in their homes because they can't afford an operation." i think food, water, and clothing is much more essential to 80% of the population than healthcare. if there is a case for sovietized anything, it is for this. people are dying because of long waits in sovietized medicine systems. what needs to be done is prices need to come down. then medicine will be bought just like food and water. walmart is already providing 4$ a month prescriptions. this is the market at work. i love it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russell jones Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 damn son, you are getting rooked. are you on some serious meds? do you need mad operations? you need to check into a better plan. I have Crohn's disease. I need to take Remicaid. The only way it can be administered is intravenously. The medicine itself costs less than 5 grand, but the hospital costs are more. We tried all of the cheaper medicines, but they didn't work. If this one stops working, I'm fucked. You say you don't need a doctor. That's good for you, and it was for me before I got sick. I didn't need universal health care before that either. If you get cancer, you can tell me how your insurance stops paying and you have to put up a couple hundred grand just to survive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russell jones Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 "seeing said poor people dying in the streets and in their homes because they can't afford an operation." i think food, water, and clothing is much more essential to 80% of the population than healthcare. if there is a case for sovietized anything, it is for this. people are dying because of long waits in sovietized medicine systems. what needs to be done is prices need to come down. then medicine will be bought just like food and water. walmart is already providing 4$ a month prescriptions. this is the market at work. i love it. You obviously don't understand how medicine works. I don't have time to get into it, but do your own research. Free market policies that work in technology sectors don't work for health care. The reason being, is that the free market wants to sell products, not health. In fact, health is not a money maker in the free market, sickness, especially chronic sickness, is. It is already that way now. If the product is health, the free market does a piss poor job of providing it, socialized medicine does a good job. There are numerous studies that prove this, you can find them I am sure. Show me a study that shows that free market medicine equals a healthy society. By the way, where's your proof that people are dying waiting for procedures in countries with socialized medicine? I've heard that before, but nobody has ever showed me any stats. Sounds like propaganda to me. And if you think medicine can be bought like food and water, then you understand little to nothing about the health care system, or how drugs are developed and brought to market. The prescriptions that Walmart is selling for $4 are old out of patent medicines. They are not saving any lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fermentor666 Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 Typical AOD defenses here, "I don't get sick, so other people don't either." Buddy, I have top health insurance under my father's plan he gets at work and I still had to wait two months to get surgery two years ago, two months of horrible pain. I went to the emergency room last year because I thought I had appendicitis, I woke up in so much pain I could barely move. I spent eight hours in there, about thirty minutes of that was spent with doctors. The rest was sitting around waiting. Your opinion of people is so pathetically low that you think everyone who recieves welfare uses it to buy lotto tickets and everyone who would get free healthcare would go to top surgeons every time they coughed. My girlfriend is still trying to pay off a $700+ emergancy room visit from a year ago. She broke her thumb two months ago and last week she received a $400 bill from the orthopedist for the two splints he gave her. She works retail and has a shit plan with a thousand dollar deductable that doesn't even cover psychiatric or fertility. Meanwhile, while my friend was unemployed he couldn't find work for long enough that he became eligable for Massachusett's free health plan (not the universal plan they legislated last year, that's not operational yet). He has a list of clinics he can go to and does not experience these imaginary long lines you believe exist. He gets to see a psychologist for free. He got a job, now he is no longer eligable and will have to pay out of his paycheck for his work's plan. The free health insurance he had was better than the one my girlfriend recieves. And she works for Whole Foods, and Whole Foods offers free health insurance. Your views on this subject are so warped, wrong, and predictable. You have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to this stuff. You call universal health insurance "socialism", and it only helps solidify your 12oz reputation as a nutcase redneck. Now I'm pretty sure that you're not actually a redneck and maybe not a nutcase, and I do believe that you are a hard working American with a fair amount of political knowledge. But you seem to be incapable of connecting the dots, thinking beyond stereotypes, and developing original thought. The shit you're saying is textbook redneck blogger shit. Just had some house guests for a week, friends of my girl's from Louisiana who had gone to Nova Scotia for a school program last summer. Up there, one of them got sick and went to the emergancy room. The visit? Free. The medication she needed? Two prescriptions for a total of $60 Canadian dollars. In this country, she'd have owed about 500-700 US dollars. You don't get sick? Never been to the doctor? Great, you're lucky. But you're in the minority. Another thing, this is a state decision, not a federal one. Isn't that what you want? States to be able to decide? You say, if one state decides to make abortions illegal, that's fine, just move out. I'm guessing you live in California, since you previously told me you live in a state as liberal as mine. So just move, if you don't like it. Move to another state. Move to Montana, join a militia. Start your own hospital. You want hospitals to be just like retail stores? One place is too pricey, so you go to the cheaper hospital, right. Well this ain't like K-Mart where the same 12-pack of Bounty paper towels is three dollars cheaper than at the local grocery. Would you rather have heart surgery in Mexico or in Massachusetts? Discount hospitals are a fucking terrible suggestion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fermentor666 Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 If you get cancer, you can tell me how your insurance stops paying and you have to put up a couple hundred grand just to survive. Something tells me AOD believes is a guy who believes in "survival of the fittest" and believes that he is the fittest, and will never get cancer or any other life-threatening disease. Perhaps I'm being a little bit accusatory, but I'm drawing from the attitude he has. And BTW, I'm not a Schwarzenegger-the-politician fan. He's a joke, and that whole election turned California into a laughing stock. I can barely take anything that comes out of that state seriously. He was fucking killer in "The Terminator", though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abracadabra Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 fermentor is so fucking on the money Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abracadabra Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 aod, let's put it this way; you haven't had to have any major (or even minor) medical treatment at this point in your life. well, it's not really suprising considering you probably haven't even reached your 30's yet. in australia at this point in my life i have at least got back what i have invested with my taxes what with bone grafts etc that i've had to have so far. and all that stuff was done before i hit 23. let's say you have a heart attack at 55 (entirely plausible these days). that one treatment in a hospital (we'll say a triple bypass) just got back every dollar you invested in your taxes over your working lifetime. congratulations, socialised healthcare just paid off in your favour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelofdeath Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 "You say you don't need a doctor." russ, i said that in direct response to the argument of universal healthcare is good just because you will personally get use out of it. i said that i havent been to the doctor in years, just as an example that i wont get use out of sovietized healthcare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelofdeath Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 "By the way, where's your proof that people are dying waiting for procedures in countries with socialized medicine? I've heard that before, but nobody has ever showed me any stats. Sounds like propaganda to me. And if you think medicine can be bought like food and water, then you understand little to nothing about the health care system, or how drugs are developed and brought to market. " considering the frasier institute study 2 years ago that there was a 18 week wait for heart surgery, i dont have a doubt in my mind people are dying because of socialized subsidized sickness. medicine is so expensive because of over regulation. for instance, no one thinks that you can have anything less than the mercedes benz of medicine/doctors/surgeons. what poor folks need is a level of pricing. they need chevy medicine and they even need daewoo medicine. when you price a service/good at 0, (socialized medicine) you create an instant shortage. this shortage will have effects like long waits, poor service, little incentive to go above and beyond the call of duty (for doctors) and this is just the economics of it. it totally leaves out the fact that people are being robbed to pay for other peoples health insurance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelofdeath Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 " Something tells me AOD believes is a guy who believes in "survival of the fittest" and believes that he is the fittest, and will never get cancer or any other life-threatening disease. Perhaps I'm being a little bit accusatory, but I'm drawing from the attitude he has." not in the least. that is why i PAY for my health insurance, i dont lobby the government to GIVE me my health insurance. it is not a 'right' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelofdeath Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 "let's say you have a heart attack at 55 (entirely plausible these days). that one treatment in a hospital (we'll say a triple bypass) just got back every dollar you invested in your taxes over your working lifetime. congratulations, socialised healthcare just paid off in your favour " this sounds good on teh surface. but the reality is socialized medicine cannot calculate. a pricing system is necessary to properly alllocate doctors, resources, medicine, etc. in a socialist system, a bureaucrat has to decide when to add a new doctor, or when to allow a new medicine on the market. without pricing as an indicator, you CANNOT properly allocate resources. it is impossible. so how do you know you are getting your money back when you get a heart operation in a socialized system? you dont know what the free market price would be. lets really look at the question at hand guys. naturally people are hard wired for government handouts and socialism these days. but why is there call for socialized medicine in teh first place? its because of high prices. you hear politicians yelling that 40 million americans dont have health insurance. well, they dont have food insurance or clothing insurance either. if the medical industry was eliminated today, a relatively small part of the population would die compared to all of the population if water were eliminated. so why not a call for sovietized water insurance? or food insurance? because it is relatively cheap. it is cheap because we have a relatively free market in food and a relatively free market in water. if we had a free market in medicine (we have a socialist government/corporate merged system that makes prices extremely high) prices would be significantly lower. prices might even be so low in fact that 80% of americans wont even need health insurance, they will pay for services just like they pay for a cheeseburger. its not that its just a necessity that socialism is called for in this area, its because costs so much. some people say you can have a free market in rubber bands, but not in medicine. i'd say the opposite. with something as important as health, and people being able to afford treatment, i'd say we should have totally free markets. we all saw how the soviets turned out. this is because the socialist system causes total economic calculation chaos. people argue that you cant have free market medicine because people 'profit' off of peoples sickness. adam smith said that its not out of benevolence of the butcher and the baker that you expect your dinner, its out of his own self interest. intentions are irrelevant. the socialized medicine advocates have good intentions im sure, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. people who provide food are 'profiting' off of peoples starvation. people who provide clothing are profiting off of nakedness. i'd say that there is nothing wrong with any of this, i'd say this is awesome. medicine is no different than food. my proposal... reduce the price. if the prices are reduced, there is no crisis. the way to do this is the free market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russell jones Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 Typical AOD, no response to the strongest argument, and no real argument that he has not repeated over and over again. Let me break it down for you. Someone comes up with a cure for my disease, which is pretty rare, then once I am cured, I don't need their product anymore. So once my relatively rare condition is cured that company goes out of business unless they can come up with more cures. They can't attract investors if they have a product that people will only use once, and the number of those people is extremely limited. I know what you will say in response, if someone comes up with a cure for cancer or AIDS, they will be rich. Of course, because both of those diseases are relatively common compared to mine, get plenty of media attention, and will attract investment for future products. Unfortunately for me, no one on TV has Crohn's disease. That's why health is different than say, Ipods. The free market works for technology like an Ipod, because you can sell it to practically anyone, and people will buy several of them in their lifetime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.