2342 Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15321167/from/ET/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Mamerro Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 From wikipedia: The text of the law states that its "Purpose" is to "establish procedures governing the use of military commissions to try alien unlawful enemy combatants engaged in hostilities against the United States for violations of the law of war and other offenses triable by military commission." Legal and Constitutional scholar Robert A. Levy commented that the Act denies habeas rights only to aliens, and that U.S. citizens detained as "unlawful combatants" would still have habeas rights and could challenge their indefinite detention. [9] While formally opposed to the Act, Human Rights Watch has also concluded that the new law limits the scope of trials by military commissions to non-U.S. citizens including all legal aliens. [10] CBS Legal expert Andrew Cohen has commented on this question and writes that the "suspension of the writ of habeas corpus – the ability of an imprisoned person to challenge their confinement in court—applies only to resident aliens within the United States as well as other foreign nationals captured here and abroad" and that "it does not restrict the rights and freedoms and liberties of U.S. citizens anymore than they already have been restricted". Not that this makes it any better, this is still the shittiest bill passed at least in my lifetime, but what exactly is the process by which a US citizen becomes a non-US citizen and thus become an unlawful enemy combatant susceptible to the rules outlined by the bill? I'm curious cause I can't seem to find a specific, detailed answer beyond "The President decides". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Mamerro Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 Nevermind. Found the answer. You don't get stripped of habeas corpus if you're a US citizen, but you're still pretty fucked with the lousy defense options you get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest R@ndomH3ro Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 sorry sneakandcreep. really, i am. you need to check on yourself before (if) you decide to have more kids. your daughter appears to be a "pre-sneak went to war" baby. good thing. too bad our boys are over there without proper equipment to protect themselves when they are cleaning up the mess our military made (is making) by using DU in bullets, bombs, etc. not many know about it. we should all be concerned. Yeah my daughter is pre-war...me coming back and getting the whole "Your screwed you where around DU" brief made me not want to have anymore kids. Right now I have some medical problems but the doctor doesnt know if it is DU releated (But he does work for the VA so...) I think I will be alright for now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelofdeath Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 Nevermind. Found the answer. You don't get stripped of habeas corpus if you're a US citizen, but you're still pretty fucked with the lousy defense options you get. exactly. it is somewhat untrue for some people to say 'habeus corpus is gone!" its like a half truth. even, from a constitutional stand point, it basically says habeus corpus cant be suspended unless absolutely necessary. so that too can be taken as a blank check. the problem lies in the executive being able to deem people enemy combatants and terrorists at thier whim. of course the definition will change over time, and can be interpreted very loosely. which is why i hate the bill. it could mean that gun stock pilers are enemy combatants if ted kennedy gets in power just as anti war protestors could be terrorists, under bush...etc etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WORDISM45 Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 haha surely ted kennedy lost his chance when he manslaughtered that woman a while back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lord_casek Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 habeas corpus is gone. in a way. you see, the way they get around it affecting americans is this: they strip you of citizenship. it's in the bill. read it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Mamerro Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Yeah well it's 98 pages long. I'd appreciate some pointers on the location or wording of citizenship-stripping procedures, considering there's only two mentions of the word "citizen" in the entire bill, and none of "citizenship". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lord_casek Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 it's important enough to read those 98 pages, since i couldn't bookmark the important stuff. give me a day or two to scan over it and find those important parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Mamerro Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 I would, cause if any government document is worth reading, it's this one. But the whole legal speak is so goddamn dense for me, I can't get through it at all. Every paragraph I read, I get like 5 different interpretaions of. It'd take me a month to be able to decipher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lord_casek Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 that's the thing, legal speak is pretty dense. i use context clues alot of the time. some of it i do have to look up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fermentor666 Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 "he Bosnia air raids did not violate the constitution, that is what I meant by "mandated". Denying citizens of due process violates the constitution." bullshit. the federal government cannot attack anything unless they declare war. the president has no power to decide when or where to attack something. the only leeway is if WE ARE ATTACKED, the president can call troops until a war declaration is passed. so, clintons bombings were just as unconstitutional as bush's iraq war. saying that the clinton appointed justice department, the FBI, BATF all under control of the president, that attacked civilians in waco texas, has nothing to do with clinton, is absolutefuckingly retarded. that is like saying 'well, bush wasnt behind the military commission act of 06, he just happened to be presiding president when it passed.' sorry, that doesnt cut the mustard. bill clinton waged war on his own citizens. trying to determine which president, bush or clinton, was worse, is like trying to determine which dictator was worse... stalin or hitler. the tradeoffs just arent there. the government was smaller under clinton than bush. but clinton was raiding the montana freemen and burning citizens alive. both were waging unconstitutional wars. both were destroying civil liberty. and most on here think that economic liberty is somehow different than civil liberty. its like choosing between dumb and dumber. Problem with you is that you're a blowhard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SticksonER Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 what about zionists?? well this is a great thread anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lwk Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 indeed crossfire worthy. I dont agree with this law however there are so many extreme variables that have been put forth supporting this law. " If there is a bomb that is going off in one hour somewhere in the US and we have someone in custody who may know where it is. You dont think we should be able to do WHATEVER IT TAKES to get this person to tell us where it is?" Scare tatics are gay... Why would you take the most extreme situation (the bomb going off in one hour) and apply it to everything else? Don't you think prior to this act police and fbi would torture someone to stop a bomb? Pretty sure they won't care about the law. The government is just using terrorism to scare americans into giving up our rights, and it is working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lord_casek Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 this IS NOT an episode of "24"! i repeat, this is REAL LIFE! not an episode of "24". there is no jack bauer. there are no supporting actors/actresses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WORDISM45 Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 this IS NOT an episode of "24"! i repeat, this is REAL LIFE! not an episode of "24". there is no jack bauer. there are no supporting actors/actresses. if this isnt the pot calling the kettle black Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lord_casek Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 if this isnt the pot calling the kettle black care to explain what you mean by that? i'll eplxain what i mean by saying that this isn't a television show. the pentagon admitted it funds the show "24" to "inject" propaganda into americans. the show is obviously pro-torture, pro "whatever it takes" attitude, etc. i am simply saying that america is not a television show. this is real life and waterboarding, snatching people 9innocent people) off of the streets of america is WRONG. this country was built on principles that work. they are being robbed from us while we play with our ipods, watch "24", care about paris hiltons giant black penis, etc. i don't think people realize the implications of such bills as HR 6166. mamerro: still trying to make time to read through it again and find that specific paragraph that refers to stripping americans of their citizenship in order to charge them as non-citizen enemy combatants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WORDISM45 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 what the shit? got osme evidence to support the pentagon funding 24 and what i meant by it was that a lot of the stuff you say has about as much factual background to a TV show (re 'conclusive proof' that tehre were explosives in the pentagon etc etc) i think youre alright though casek so sont take my light hearted jab to heart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lord_casek Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 never said there were explosives in the pentagon. that was hit by something. as i've stated, i don't think it was a missile. i do think it's a honeypot, though. "The New York Times reported that the Defense Department had paid the Rendon Group, a Washington-based international consulting firm, $100,000 per month to help the OSI with a broad campaign that would include "black" propaganda, or disinformation." Evidence of Pentagon Psychological Warfare Operations Against U.S. Citizens Surfaces in Want Ads http://page15.com/2004/07/evidence-of-pentagon-psychological.html Pentagon chiefs condemned for launching propaganda war By Ben Fenton in Washington (Filed: 20/02/2002) AMERICA'S western allies reacted with concern yesterday to the creation of a Pentagon department of propaganda aimed at planting disinformation in the media of America's friends as well as its enemies. The Office of Strategic Influence has been set up to disseminate truthful information openly, but also to spread what one senior Pentagon official called "the blackest of black programmes". The organisation, which is headed by a brigadier and has about 15 staff reporting directly to the under secretary of defence for policy, is already working on ways to influence and mislead the media in a number of countries, mostly in the Islamic world, but also in Western Europe. advertisement A Pentagon source, who asked not to be named, said there were some European nations that "sometimes needed to be helped to see the light". The existence of the OSI was revealed in the New York Times. It was reportedly established to spread positive messages about the war on terrorism, but it would also use disinformation and misinformation to mislead friend and foe alike. Reaction among America's allies was universally negative. One Western official said: "This sort of thing might work in countries with no sophisticated media network, but not in Europe or any other mature democracy." A European diplomat said: "Everyone uses disinformation for military reasons, but I have never heard of using official sources to spread false information to the media of an ally." Another diplomat said: "The Pentagon is not exactly regarded as the fount of truth and justice now, so I don't know what sort of damage to its reputation this might do if it leaked out. "All I can see this sort of thing doing is giving a mighty good excuse to our enemies for dismissing all coalition claims as black propaganda." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/02/20/wprop20.xml there was a USA Today article that is no loner available admitting it, too. i understand your lighthearted jabs were just that, but don't take what i say as just speculation. i have a feeling that within the next year or two, things are going to come out which will make the whole country, the whole world, see the light. it's already happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Pubes Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 ^john rendon is a real piece of work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WORDISM45 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 and i shall buy you a beer if any of the stuff you say turns out to be true (os i meant to say the twin towers not the pentagon) back to the subject that article didnt say anything aobut the pentagon funding 24 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lord_casek Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 yeah, it was in the USA today and on Yahoo. unfortunately, both dump their cache after a period of time. it's not censoring, it's just space saving, cheap bastards. anyhow, those have alot to do with it. Rendon is the corp that handled the deal by the pentagon for the show "24" in fact, and get this, the deal was brokered right before the patriot act II was set to be debated/signed into law. turns out, that show dealt with the same issues that the republicrats were arguing "why the patriot act is good". i'm not joking, yum. i wouldn't even try to make something up like that. as odd as it seems, the govt's of the world do still use plenty of propaganda on their citizens. what was that guys name? bernays? maybe the spelling is wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lord_casek Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 Pentagon boosts public relations arsenal http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/30/pentagon.pr.ap/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_gooch Posted December 25, 2006 Share Posted December 25, 2006 Just change a few names around: Last call for alcohol. Last call for your freedom of speech. Drink up. Happy hour is now enforced by law. Don't forget our house special, it's called a Trickie Dickie Screwdriver. It's got one part Jack Daniels, two parts purple Kool-Aid, and a jigger of formaldehyde from the jar with Hitler's brain in it we got in the back storeroom. Happy trails to you. Happy trails to you. I am Emperor Ronald Reagan Born again with fascist cravings Still, you made me president Human rights will soon go 'way I am now your Shah today Now I command all of you Now you're going to pray in school I'll make sure they're Christian too California Uber alles Uber alles California Ku Klux Klan will control you Still you think it's natural Nigger knockin' for the master race Still you wear the happy face You closed your eyes, can't happen here Alexander Haig is near Vietnam won't come back you say Join the army or you will pay California Uber alles Uber alles California Yeah, that's it. Just relax. Have another drink, few more pretzels, little more MSG. Turn on those Dallas Cowboys on your TV. Lock your doors. Close your mind. It's time for the two-minute warning. Welcome to 1984 Are you ready for the third world war?!? You too will meet the secret police They'll draft you and they'll jail your niece You'll go quitely to boot camp They'll shoot you dead, make you a man Don't you worry, it's for a cause Feeding global corporations' claws Die on our brand new poison gas El Salvador or Afghanistan Making money for President Reagan And all the friends of President Reagan California Uber alles Uber alles California Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whats hapnin Posted December 27, 2006 Share Posted December 27, 2006 george bush is a fool. republicans are stuck in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIKISM Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 Just change a few names around: Last call for alcohol. Last call for your freedom of speech. Drink up. Happy hour is now enforced by law. Don't forget our house special, it's called a Trickie Dickie Screwdriver. It's got one part Jack Daniels, two parts purple Kool-Aid, and a jigger of formaldehyde from the jar with Hitler's brain in it we got in the back storeroom. Happy trails to you. Happy trails to you. I am Emperor Ronald Reagan Born again with fascist cravings Still, you made me president Human rights will soon go 'way I am now your Shah today Now I command all of you Now you're going to pray in school I'll make sure they're Christian too California Uber alles Uber alles California Ku Klux Klan will control you Still you think it's natural Nigger knockin' for the master race Still you wear the happy face You closed your eyes, can't happen here Alexander Haig is near Vietnam won't come back you say Join the army or you will pay California Uber alles Uber alles California Yeah, that's it. Just relax. Have another drink, few more pretzels, little more MSG. Turn on those Dallas Cowboys on your TV. Lock your doors. Close your mind. It's time for the two-minute warning. Welcome to 1984 Are you ready for the third world war?!? You too will meet the secret police They'll draft you and they'll jail your niece You'll go quitely to boot camp They'll shoot you dead, make you a man Don't you worry, it's for a cause Feeding global corporations' claws Die on our brand new poison gas El Salvador or Afghanistan Making money for President Reagan And all the friends of President Reagan California Uber alles Uber alles California Exactly! Didn't the FBI threaten them and force them to dead that shit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tabloid- Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/fs/2002/16181.htm as far as being stripped of your citizenship, I think the supreme court has final say in that. I don't think that the White House has that athority. I could be wrong, but it would be easier to disapear somebody. " terrorists" are only shown to the public when it is politically convenient to a politician. Case in point http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46640 did you see this story on any major news program? why do you need the Secretary of Treasury to freeze someones assets? I thought could be done with a court order? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genome Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Countdown-King-George.mov olbermann "the day habeas corpus died" Yeah, 'cause when I think "responsible reporting," I think OLBERMANN. This whole argument - on both sides, by the way - is based in some claim that government is malevolent, which I personally don't subscribe to. It's just incompetent. George Bush is no better, or typically worse, than any other president that flexed the executive muscles. They were all in over their heads, running around without a clue as to what was going on, trying to keep up appearances of a well-run government. Yes, George Bush is a bad president. But seeing as we haven't had a good president since the 1880's, I don't really care much for that argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tabloid- Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 what makes a good president? I can think of a couple of "good" qualities or at least border line god acts the last 3 presidents prior to the dancing monkey who won the lucky sperm contest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lord_casek Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2006/12/can_you_hear_me.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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