Bush confirms secret CIA prisons

[El Mamerro]

Anybody know what's the proper way to interrogate someone? I really can't think of a single method where everyone is happy. Torture will make them say anything. If it's just patiently waiting for the suspect to become cooperative, then it's no wonder the person will be in custody for months or even years. Same case if there's some sort of reward given for information that will take time to verify.

 

So what's the deal?

[Smart]

it's a psychostruggle... you have to beat their mind and you can learn what you want... the argument (and you point it out quite well) comes down to the method of mind beating. So far I don't think there's a truly reliable method, torture can be both mental and physical and there's the idea that no matter how crazed the source you can always assign a percentage factor to the amount of 'valuable' information that you're getting...

 

And that's really where the psychostruggle comes in, it's all about continuing to recieve tax payer dollars while convincing the 'Employers' that a 20% intelligence return is something good... Nevermind that nobody is really sure which 20% is the real jumpoff.

[lord_casek]

i actually found an interrogation manual a little while ago.

i'll go grab it and post it up for you guys to read.

[lord_casek]

Revised Army interrogation manual held up by secrecy concerns

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2006/05/revised-army-interrogation-manual-held.php

 

 

FM 34-52

INTELLIGENCE INTERROGATION

http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/library/policy/army/fm/fm34-52/

 

 

 

PRISONER ABUSE: PATTERNS FROM THE PAST

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB122/

[lord_casek]

here are the training courses

http://www.gigasize.com/get.php/43332/US_Army_interrogation_courses.rar

[shai]

Amendment VI

 

 

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

 

Amendment VIII

 

 

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

 

Hmmmmmm....those Founding Fathers....quite a bunch of hippies they were.

 

Now, how about the fact that they're being held ON AMERICAN SOIL??? Doesn't that entitle them to due process?

[fermentor666]

^^^ That's what I'm talking about. I believe amendments IV and V might have some relevance but I'm rusty.

[Stereotype V.0002]

Amendment VI

 

 

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

 

Amendment VIII

 

 

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

 

Hmmmmmm....those Founding Fathers....quite a bunch of hippies they were.

 

Now, how about the fact that they're being held ON AMERICAN SOIL??? Doesn't that entitle them to due process?

 

The detainees being held indefinitely weren't captured in America, and the crimes they committed weren't in America. Those who have been, are treated as specified above and one of which is doing time in federal right now. And unless I'm missing something, the people featured in this thread aren't on American soil, but at top secret evil CIA prisons somewhere in eastern or central europe.

[tabloid-]

Prisons (especially for terrorists) aren't meant to be nice and tidy. That's the whole purpose of "punishing" someone for committing crimes such as mass murder. I don't see anything wrong with having bright lights or strobe lights going off in someone's cell for 24 hours straight if it means getting information that can save the lives of thousands of innocents.

 

1) here's the problem w/ your argument. Interogation is to gather credible information, not to punish.

 

2) most " real " operatives are trained to hold out for 24-48 hours. Just long enough for the information that they posses to be useless. They may give up a name, or a location, but the system, and routes of say... smuggeling guns will have been changed within that 24-48 hour period.

 

3) if you had a brother in the military and he was captured you would be cool w/ that type of interogation being used on him? It's all part of the job... right.

 

 

don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating kids gloves, but there is definately a line between torture and physical interogation.

[El Mamerro]

 

3) if you had a brother in the military and he was captured you would be cool w/ that type of interogation being used on him? It's all part of the job... right.

 

I hate these kinds of statements. It's the most bullshit kind of justification ever, no different to death penalty supporters who bring up the same argument ("What if it was your mother this guy raped and killed? Wouldn't you want him dead?").

 

You can't bring personal issues to cases that MUST be judged upon objectively.

[RumPuncher]

there is no way to be completey without bias.

That's the major divide between newtonian and quantum physics.

 

Did we influence the particles by observing them? quantum theory would say yes.

 

 

 

anyway, I'm going to eat soup

[fermentor666]

The detainees being held indefinitely weren't captured in America, and the crimes they committed weren't in America. Those who have been, are treated as specified above and one of which is doing time in federal right now. And unless I'm missing something, the people featured in this thread aren't on American soil, but at top secret evil CIA prisons somewhere in eastern or central europe.

 

 

 

They are being held by the government in prisons subsidized by federal taxpayer money. And most of them are American citizens. So yes, they have the right to legal defense and are not being allowed that right.

[Stereotype V.0002]

All the details so far available suggest the prisons and airbase facilities are provided by the foreign governments who offer them, so the only thing getting federal money would be the CIA agent’s paychecks. The majority of the detainees in general are pashtun or saudis found in Afghanistan by US forces, some captured by Pakistan or other foreign govts. We’re still talking about the secret prisons right? How did most being American make sense to you?

 

This is an idiotic argument, but I am happy to continue. I agree with most of you that they should get trials and humane treatment..just for different reasons. Well, universal peace and harmony to you my fellow humans.

[fermentor666]

I'm talking about Guantanamo because it's just as important as these secret prisons. And also, these prisons have been secret so I don't think you can be sure that the people in them are not citizens of the USA.

 

And the foreign countries aren't just saying "hey use our land and facilities". The facilities are either being built by the US government or rented and most likely there are some pay-offs involved as well. And it's not coming out of the private accounts of Dick Cheney.

[angelofdeath]

this 'tax payer' subsidized prison thing is a good one. it gives the bleeding hearts something to think about, the immoral nature that is tax collection and the purposes they get used for. if they werent so busy trying to give the president power and increase the tax spend machine, they wouldnt of had to worry about thier tax dollars going to fund war or these prisons. unfortunately the liberals were the ones who created the income tax, withholding tax, the 17th amendment, creation of the federal reserve, etc. these were the checks to hold the federal government accountable.

 

i have mixed feelings about these prisons. while obviously enemy combatants need to be held somewhere, the stage is set domestically for some really scary shit. starting with clintons domestic terrorist act, echelon and other wire taps, waco, etc, then bush continuing the legacy, the possibility is definately there for some fucked up shit to happen. if just enemy combatants are held in violation of the constitution, i dont give a shit. if there is a possibility of US citizens in there in violation of the constitution. , or being able to be put in there, then we have a problem.

 

but hopefully people like fermentor will wake up about all the money that is taken from the citizens to fund the government.

[Stereotype V.0002]

So you were talking about Guantanamo when you said most prisoners are American citizens?ORLY? The only one I can think of is Padilla. About the secret prisons, the detainees are more than likely captured in the Middle East since that’s where the flights are coming from and the govt has already admitted several senior al Qaeda members are being held there. But if you want to indulge a “1984” wetdream where these prisons are full of American citizens, that’s your business.

 

Again, there isn’t a whole lot of information available about these “secret” prisons so all of what we are saying is speculation. But from what has been in the news it seems like the foreign nations actually are saying “hey use our land and facilities" to establish a relationship with the US. Trying to gain favor from America isn't anything new, and allowing them to use a few buildings doesn't really seem that insane. For example, the secret prison reportedly in Romania is located at a pre-existing Romanian air base. These prisons aren’t going to hold more than a few hundred people at the most, there isn’t a need for a huge facility. I don't think the CIA is going to rent out a foreign nation’s military base, it isn’t chucky cheeses. And Cheney probably doesn’t have a lot of money left after giving several million to charities and then overpaying his taxes by 2 million.

[fermentor666]

So you were talking about Guantanamo when you said most prisoners are American citizens?ORLY? The only one I can think of is Padilla. About the secret prisons, the detainees are more than likely captured in the Middle East since that’s where the flights are coming from and the govt has already admitted several senior al Qaeda members are being held there. But if you want to indulge a “1984” wetdream where these prisons are full of American citizens, that’s your business.

 

Again, there isn’t a whole lot of information available about these “secret” prisons so all of what we are saying is speculation. But from what has been in the news it seems like the foreign nations actually are saying “hey use our land and facilities" to establish a relationship with the US. Trying to gain favor from America isn't anything new, and allowing them to use a few buildings doesn't really seem that insane. For example, the secret prison reportedly in Romania is located at a pre-existing Romanian air base. These prisons aren’t going to hold more than a few hundred people at the most, there isn’t a need for a huge facility. I don't think the CIA is going to rent out a foreign nation’s military base, it isn’t chucky cheeses. And Cheney probably doesn’t have a lot of money left after giving several million to charities and then overpaying his taxes by 2 million.

 

 

 

Blah, blah, blah. Keep defending the unknown.

[lord_casek]

i think there are alot more americans than we know about. i've heard of more than a few cases of americans being kidnapped by homeland security.

 

 

 

edit: i'm not saying most prisoners are americans, just that there are alot mroe americans than we know about.

[Dawood]

right after Sept. 11th , people dissappeared from the muslim community and have not been seen since. I think a lot of people (american citizens and illegals alike) were taken into custody to sort things out and some of them haven't been seen since, man True story.

 

As far as any of their involment into terrorist activities and the like, I have no idea, none of those disappearances were even covered by the news, all hush, hush.

[fermentor666]

Exactly.

[WORDISM45]

have you ever heard of the founding principal of a fair trial huxtable? its innocent until proven guilty, so you cant really rightfully begin 'punishing' someone when they havent even been charged let alone convicted of any crime.

plus dont give me this shit about how 'if its going to save thousands of lives then its worth it' youre not going to hear anyone argue against that. the fact is theres no proof to suggest that torturing some dude is going to save thousands of lives (whether hes a real terrorist or just some poor dude who was in the worng place at the wrong time)

[lord_casek]

the classic neo-con argument is exactly what theo is arguing. "if it's going to save thousands of lives" and "they weren't captured on american soil, so that doesn't make them privy to american law". fact is, there's the geneva convention to look at. of course, as several others have argued, it's a war on an ideology, not a specific nation. america kinda threw the geneva convention out the window.

 

.

[Stereotype V.0002]

Blah, blah, blah. Keep defending the unknown.

 

As opposed to creating a plot from the unknown where you blatantly make shit up as you go along? I’m not defending anything, I’m throwing in the occasional fact and rational thought from what is known.

 

Dawood, can you name any of them? I'd be willing to bet you heard this from some guy, who knew a guy, who knew a guy who was abducted by the men in black. This is just adding more to the pile of steaming hot bullshit used as proof of the massive concentration camps holding billions of American citizens being tortured by CIA agents on the death star.

[Larry Pubes]

..there isn’t a whole lot of information available about these “secret” prisons so all of what we are saying is speculation.

 

...I’m throwing in the occasional fact and rational thought from what is known.

 

ORLY?

since this is all speculation, arguing anything aside from the fact bush admitted they exist is moot.

[Obvious]

have you ever heard of the founding principal of a fair trial huxtable? its innocent until proven guilty, so you cant really rightfully begin 'punishing' someone when they havent even been charged let alone convicted of any crime.

plus dont give me this shit about how 'if its going to save thousands of lives then its worth it' youre not going to hear anyone argue against that. the fact is theres no proof to suggest that torturing some dude is going to save thousands of lives (whether hes a real terrorist or just some poor dude who was in the worng place at the wrong time)

 

you forgot one thing. people like abu zubaydah, khalid sheikh mohammad, and ramzi binalshibh were all held as -- say it with me -- enemy combatants. you know, when a country is at war with either a nation or groups/guerrilla factions, and the enemy is captured, they don't go through usual legal proceedings that an average criminal in the U.S. would get. that said, after all information is exhausted from the terrorist himself, as well as papers, blueprints, and files on his computer, he will be prosecuted and will receive a fair trial. it doesn't make sense to make him go to court without getting as much info out of him as possible.

 

i never said use torture. i'm talking about keeping them in harsh conditions such as having bright lights on 24/7 in their cell, not letting them have contact with anyone, and other legal measures that causes enough psychological stress to where they start giving up info. many terrorist attacks were thwarted by getting info from AZ, KSM, and RB. AZ disclosed that KSM was the mastermind and operational engineer of 9/11, with the overseeing and approval by OBL. AZ also disclosed KSM's alias "Muktar" -- this information from AZ eventually lead to KSM's CAPTURE. it was later found out that KSM had been planning to fly planes into buildings on the West Coast, this time using Indonesians terrorists from Jemah Islamiyah, to avoid detection since Arabs were under high scrutiny. KSM also gave up the name of an al Qaeda operative who was in charge of obtaining biological weapons. this person was also captured. and there were many more plots thwarted as a result of this information being given up.

 

and yes, many people will argue against getting info from terrorists if it means saving thousands of lives. it is argued against by ultra-liberals, conspiracy theorists, and muslim extremists.

[Larry Pubes]

and yes, many people will argue against getting info from terrorists if it means saving thousands of lives. it is argued against by ultra-liberals, conspiracy theorists, and muslim extremists.

 

why are you twisting the argument? obviously anyone would agree stopping an attack is worth it, including the groups you mentioned (i like how you throw terrorists in with liberals and conspiracy theorists) provided the information is solid and you aren't torturing just anybody who looks the part.

[Obvious]

although i'm not a big fan of bush, i am glad that he recently stated that he is pushing for measures to have these terrorist leaders/masterminds charged with war crimes. just because they are not official leaders of nations and they're not generals of official armies (as throughout history, people charged for war crimes were), they still committed crimes against humanity. some of you might say "what difference does it make?" whether they get prosecuted as is, or get prosecuted as a war criminal. the reason it's a good idea is because it will leave a tarnishing image on terrorists throughout history if they're seen as "war criminals" rather than just criminals. part of the war on terrorism, if not the most important, is winning the hearts and minds of people worldwide, especially in the middle east, to view terrorism as war criminal acts on par with war criminals that committed the Holocaust and Hussein that gased thousands of Kurds, and Milosevic that commited genocide against ethnic Albanians in Kosovo -- there should be no seperation between heinous acts committed by official "leaders" and heinous acts committed by Islamic extremists.

[Obvious]

why are you twisting the argument? obviously anyone would agree stopping an attack is worth it, including the groups you mentioned (i like how you throw terrorists in with liberals and conspiracy theorists) provided the information is solid and you aren't torturing just anybody who looks the part.

 

i didn't say "terrorists," i said "muslim extremists." muslim extremism is the mindset that produces terrorism. many muslim extremists are not terrorists, but they support terrorist acts and often speak out against the West. additionally, i didn't say "liberals," i said "ultra-liberals" to refer specifically to liberals with the most extreme far left views.

 

we shouldn't torture, and we shouldn't just grab people that "look the part." but i'm pretty sure AZ, KSM, and RB are not just people that look the part. the first two were high ranking among the al qaeda echelon, and RB was directly involved in the 9/11 attacks.

[fermentor666]

Three people out of thousands. Great batting average.

[Milk Grenades]

As opposed to creating a plot from the unknown where you blatantly make shit up as you go along? I’m not defending anything, I’m throwing in the occasional fact and rational thought from what is known.

 

Dawood, can you name any of them? I'd be willing to bet you heard this from some guy, who knew a guy, who knew a guy who was abducted by the men in black. This is just adding more to the pile of steaming hot bullshit used as proof of the massive concentration camps holding billions of American citizens being tortured by CIA agents on the death star.