Twisted words.

[ERIZENO]

"Bin laden and his terrorists' allies have made their intentions as clear as Lenin and Hitler before them," the president said before the Military Officers Association of America and diplomatic representatives of other countries that have suffered terrorist attacks

 

CNN's story

 

Is this Bush clearly projecting or am I crazy? Didn't he make a claim similar to this on Fascism recently as well.

 

It seems to me as if they held up a mirror to their intentions and listed all the key words and catch phrases they thought of and have been using them on everyone they conceive as their enemies.

 

Only thing better than this proformance is how many people cash in on the grand stories.

"Yeah, did you hear ... Bin Laden wants to be the next Hitler or Lenin."

 

Discuss ....

[russell jones]

A local newspaper editorial was talking about Rumsfield doing the same thing. He compared the situation in Iraq to Hitler, and said that those against the Iraq war are like those who appeased Hitler.

 

The editorial mentioned that it was well known in high school debate competitions that one should never compare to the Nazis, because invariably the comparison will be madly out of proportion.

 

Hmmm... Hitler, world's most powerful army, nearly the most powerful air force, a potent Navy, a threat to not only his neighbors but the whole world, killed 6 million Jewish people, Gypsies and other people considered undesirable in Nazi ideology compared to Hussein, who killed many of his own people, weak army, barely an air force, does he even have a proper Navy??? Dangerous only to his immediate neighbors if he hadn't been weakened so much by the first Iraq war and the lack of our support from the U.S. anymore. I don't think there is much of a comparison.

 

This is obvious, but all this talk is desperation in an election year. The administration knows that the Republicans stand to lose the Senate and possibly the House, they know it's partly their fault, so they are shaking a stick in one hand hoping nobody notices how dirty their other hand is. It's really sad, pathetic almost.

[ERIZENO]

A bit more

Time.com

[WORDISM45]

whats so bad about lenin?

[Dawood]

yeah, man he was a rockin' beatle.

[WORDISM45]

but seriously whats so bad about lenin? i havent really doen much reading on him but ive never heard of any attrocities hes commited or anything like that? just because he instituted communism into russia doesnt make him an evil man

[Dawood]

nope, just a commie pinko, Archie Bunker would not approve your statements yum.

[russell jones]

Lenin had a habit of killing his political opponents. He never hesitated to use violence to get his way. He was no Hitler though. He was not as bad as Stalin either. But I hate Lenin because he had a chance to have democratic socialism, but he decided to go autocrat instead. Stalin followed his lead, and that was that. It bothers me, because people still say that communism failed and capitalism won, when in fact communism never existed, and the capitalist countries became socialist.

[TheOh]

http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/stalin.htm

 

 

 

yum, this might help. not sure of the accuracy. Lenin was not a good person.

[lord_casek]

what was that lenin quote???

 

it doesn't matter who votes, it's who counts the votes that matters.

 

is that it?

[fermentor666]

Stalin actually did his best to remove any evidence of Lenin from Soviet history, because Lenin was the one who admired him most and at the end of his life, Lenin completely renounced Stalin and said he would not make for a good leader. That's why there was such a huge deal about Lenin's body finally being allowed to be shown and it's why thousands of people line up to see it in full, embalmed glory.

[shai]

Lenin had a habit of killing his political opponents. He never hesitated to use violence to get his way. He was no Hitler though. He was not as bad as Stalin either. But I hate Lenin because he had a chance to have democratic socialism, but he decided to go autocrat instead. Stalin followed his lead, and that was that. It bothers me, because people still say that communism failed and capitalism won, when in fact communism never existed, and the capitalist countries became socialist.

 

SAY WHAT???

 

The US is a socialist country? Since when?

 

All I get for my tax dollars is a bunch of dead Iraqis. Have you ever tried to pay a doctor bill with a dead Iraqi? It's tough, I tell you.

 

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you live in one of the more enlightened countries that have instituted socialist ideals such as free health care...but, we in the US are about a million years away from that, thanks to lobbyists from the medical insurance industry making sure that the only way I could ever cash in on that is to marry someone from Canada...but then, I'd have to live in Canada.

 

Sorry, but as long as Big Business does everything in its power to ensure that fat, old white guys hold the rest of us hostage, then shit isn't going to change. Doesn't matter who you vote for, doesn't matter how many demonstrations there are...they have much deeper pockets than you or I ever will.

[angelofdeath]

but seriously whats so bad about lenin? i havent really doen much reading on him but ive never heard of any attrocities hes commited or anything like that? just because he instituted communism into russia doesnt make him an evil man

 

hahahahahaha!

[WORDISM45]

how about you provide me with some knowledge on the subject (not jsut a link to some shitty website you googled) instead of attempting to patronise.

 

why do you personally think lenin was an evil man angelofdeath?

[Larry Pubes]

these guys obviously rule. rumsfeld's good pal wolfowitz(remember this assbag?) used to pal around with suharto, and last time i checked he still thought the guy was pretty standup.

[russell jones]

SAY WHAT???

 

The US is a socialist country? Since when?

 

All I get for my tax dollars is a bunch of dead Iraqis. Have you ever tried to pay a doctor bill with a dead Iraqi? It's tough, I tell you.

 

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you live in one of the more enlightened countries that have instituted socialist ideals such as free health care...but, we in the US are about a million years away from that, thanks to lobbyists from the medical insurance industry making sure that the only way I could ever cash in on that is to marry someone from Canada...but then, I'd have to live in Canada.

 

Sorry, but as long as Big Business does everything in its power to ensure that fat, old white guys hold the rest of us hostage, then shit isn't going to change. Doesn't matter who you vote for, doesn't matter how many demonstrations there are...they have much deeper pockets than you or I ever will.

 

 

The US has been reticent to accept more recent developments that the rest of the world has. We do have some socialism though, such as social security and medicaid. I didn't comment on whether we had enough.

 

I wish I could pay my doctor bills with something. I have too many!

[Stereotype V.0002]

Yum, other than thousands of people killed because they opposed socialism, the thousands killed because lenin didn’t like their class, the anti-Semitic violence, the people who were executed at random to instill fear in the public and seize their food, and the 5 million who died of starvation as a direct result of that policy, no he wasn’t a bad dude at all!

 

To the original topic, people use nazi and fascism comparisons on Bush and his buddies all the time without this type of controversy being stirred up. It almost seems like they are getting pissy because he stole their tactic, not even using it against them but against the “evil doers”. I find it funny that he always goes out of his way in his speeches to call people who oppose him “patriotic Americans who mean well.”

[ERIZENO]

To the original topic, people use nazi and fascism comparisons on Bush and his buddies all the time without this type of controversy being stirred up. It almost seems like they are getting pissy because he stole their tactic, not even using it against them but against the “evil doers”. I find it funny that he always goes out of his way in his speeches to call people who oppose him “patriotic Americans who mean well.”

 

 

Yeah ... its the language and consistent talking points that comes from this administration that are so amusing to me. I am guilty of being one of the people who talk of these guys with the fascism boarding on nazism titles. I think its part of the psychology of this group ... if they slander everyone but themselves with these harsh terms it will convince the "true blooded" Americans that they are following god will to destroy the heathens.

 

If there were not so many consequences for their behavior I would sit back and just be entertained by this madness.

[HardyHarHar]

 

To the original topic, people use nazi and fascism comparisons on Bush and his buddies all the time without this type of controversy being stirred up.

 

That's a joke. In fact that statement is such a lump of bullshit that this might take me a minute.

 

Remember this: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,107426,00.html

 

Moveon.org had a contest: Come up with a 30 second ad, critical of George Bush. One submission was an ad comparing Bush to Hitler, it was removed from the site, but not before every loud mouthed conservative cracker tried to smear the reputation of moveon.org.

 

So take what you just said, and eat it, because it's false.

[shai]

The US has been reticent to accept more recent developments that the rest of the world has. We do have some socialism though, such as social security and medicaid. I didn't comment on whether we had enough.

 

I wish I could pay my doctor bills with something. I have too many!

 

The thing is, SSI was instituted under the New Deal, but has been less than successful because they haven't accounted for the rising cost of living and raised the SDI tax and benefit rates accordingly. I'm not sure if this was by design, or if they only had a finite amount of money to start with, or just plain lack of foresight...either way, it's not everything it could be, but it's better than nothing.

 

Old folks shouldn't HAVE to worry about whether their pension is going to be invested in junk bonds, or outright looted, by assholes like Charles Hurwitz or Kenneth Lay. But, to compound the actions of a greedy few, we have to worry about "leaders" like Bush caving in to the insurance industry by privatizing SSI...so they can cash in on the Boomers once they reach retirement age. Don't be surprised if this issue keeps coming up, either...I highly doubt Bush thought this one up. Fortunately, he was dumb enough to try to push it through by making it a major campaign point while there was a war (that he started) for the voters to think about.

[lord_casek]

something in "america: from freedom to fascism" brings out is that

our govt borrows from the federal reserve (a private bank). the fed

pulls numbers out of thin air, then our federal income tax goes back to paying

for the govt. loan from the fed.

 

it's all quite illegal. seeing as how the federal income tax is reserved for corporations who make a profit.

[fermentor666]

Yum, other than thousands of people killed because they opposed socialism, the thousands killed because lenin didn’t like their class, the anti-Semitic violence, the people who were executed at random to instill fear in the public and seize their food, and the 5 million who died of starvation as a direct result of that policy, no he wasn’t a bad dude at all!

 

 

Lenin's fight against anti-Semitism

 

After the revolution, Lenin worked hard to combat Anti-Semitism in Russia. In a radio speech in 1919, Lenin said: "The Tsarist police, in alliance with the landowners and the capitalists, organized pogroms against the Jews. The landowners and capitalists tried to divert the hatred of the workers and peasants who were tortured by want against the Jews. ... Only the most ignorant and downtrodden people can believe the lies and slander that are spread about the Jews. ... It is not the Jews who are the enemies of the working people. The enemies of the workers are the capitalists of all countries. Among the Jews there are working people, and they form the majority. They are our brothers, who, like us, are oppressed by capital; they are our comrades in the struggle for socialism. ... Shame on accursed Tsarism which tortured and persecuted the Jews. Shame on those who foment hatred towards the Jews, who foment hatred towards other nations."

 

Wikipedia

[shai]

 

"In my country, there is problem...throw the Jew down the well..."

[angelofdeath]

"why do you personally think lenin was an evil man angelofdeath?"

 

stereo summed it up pretty good. imprisoning political prisoners, mass murder, gulags, starving the population, abolishing private property and enterprise, set the stage for stalinism. anyone who tries to defend communist revolutionary definately has some screws loose in my opinion.

[angelofdeath]

"The thing is, SSI was instituted under the New Deal, but has been less than successful because they haven't accounted for the rising cost of living and raised the SDI tax and benefit rates accordingly. I'm not sure if this was by design, or if they only had a finite amount of money to start with, or just plain lack of foresight...either way, it's not everything it could be, but it's better than nothing."

 

i'll take the bait.

America is supposed to be an immoral capitalist cess pool. i wish it was, because during this past century, more socialism was injected into America than anything else. the market economy is a shell of its former self. freedom is just some sort of catch phrase. if you look at the 10 planks of a communist state, you'll note we are definately heading in that direction, not away from. what is "free" or "non coercive" about taking half your income in taxes by the point of a government gun? what is good about taking by force social security money that the government is telling you dont know how to manage? what is moral about taking property from one person and giving it to another? what is moral about confiscating property, through 'eminent domain' and giving it to private developers? what is just about taking your property, and paying you what they think it is worth ? (eminent domain) why is the governments hand in everything under the sun? why does the government give monopoly priviledges to power and phone companies? how is universal "healthcare" and compulsory 'free' education not pinko? why are they trying to institute a national ID and pull some RFID business? why do we have a central bank if we are not moving toward socialism?

 

just some things to ponder.

[angelofdeath]

"something in "america: from freedom to fascism" brings out is that

our govt borrows from the federal reserve (a private bank). the fed

pulls numbers out of thin air, then our federal income tax goes back to paying

for the govt. loan from the fed.

 

it's all quite illegal. seeing as how the federal income tax is reserved for corporations who make a profit."

 

 

yeah, i wish they would release this damn movie already!

its not simply the fact that the FED is private, I would still oppose it if it was ran by the government, actually i would probably oppose it more. thing is, the government shouldnt be involved in money whatsoever, unless it is minting Gold or Silver. this money of a free society is so much harder to inflate. actually, you cant do it with success. if this were the case, government would not encompass every part of our daily lives, we wouldnt be in iraq, and we wouldnt be giving trillions in foreign aid. why? because the government gets fake money at bernanke's whim. all he has to do is print more. it is created out of thin air.

 

you can pay for government 3 ways. taxes, borrowing and inflation. inflation is silent and doesnt rile the populace to bad. if we were actually taxed for all the government we have right now, there is not a doubt in my mind the US government would be under attack by the population at this very second.

 

the congress prints a bond. bernanke over at the FED buys the bond with credit or money he created out of thin air. this money is then used to fund big government, foreign war, foreign aid, the welfare state etc etc. so we have the bank buying bonds for trillions of dollars, when we are already in trillions of dollars of debt. what happens next, when this new money hits the market, prices rise, while actual wages stay the same and spending power decreases. so what we have now is:

 

gold at 650$ an ounce. in 1913 when the FED was created an ounce was worth 20$. how it is worth 650$. another way to look at it 1.00 dollar today is actually worth .04 cents. so you need 1.96 to buy 1 dollars worth of goods in 1913 money.

do some multiplying on that for while...... that is one hell of a silent tax.

[angelofdeath]

"Lenin's fight against anti-Semitism

 

After the revolution, Lenin worked hard to combat Anti-Semitism in Russia. In a radio speech in 1919, Lenin said: "The Tsarist police, in alliance with the landowners and the capitalists, organized pogroms against the Jews. The landowners and capitalists tried to divert the hatred of the workers and peasants who were tortured by want against the Jews. ... Only the most ignorant and downtrodden people can believe the lies and slander that are spread about the Jews. ... It is not the Jews who are the enemies of the working people. The enemies of the workers are the capitalists of all countries. Among the Jews there are working people, and they form the majority. They are our brothers, who, like us, are oppressed by capital; they are our comrades in the struggle for socialism. ... Shame on accursed Tsarism which tortured and persecuted the Jews. Shame on those who foment hatred towards the Jews, who foment hatred towards other nations."

 

Wikipedia"

 

yeah how heroic... a mass murdering dictator speaking out against anti semitism. yup, he now gets an A+ in my book. his slate is cleared!

 

socialism is tyranny whether it is the nazi, bolshevik or bushchevist persuation.

[shai]

"The thing is, SSI was instituted under the New Deal, but has been less than successful because they haven't accounted for the rising cost of living and raised the SDI tax and benefit rates accordingly. I'm not sure if this was by design, or if they only had a finite amount of money to start with, or just plain lack of foresight...either way, it's not everything it could be, but it's better than nothing."

 

i'll take the bait.

America is supposed to be an immoral capitalist cess pool. i wish it was, because during this past century, more socialism was injected into America than anything else. the market economy is a shell of its former self. freedom is just some sort of catch phrase. if you look at the 10 planks of a communist state, you'll note we are definately heading in that direction, not away from. what is "free" or "non coercive" about taking half your income in taxes by the point of a government gun? what is good about taking by force social security money that the government is telling you dont know how to manage? what is moral about taking property from one person and giving it to another? what is moral about confiscating property, through 'eminent domain' and giving it to private developers? what is just about taking your property, and paying you what they think it is worth ? (eminent domain) why is the governments hand in everything under the sun? why does the government give monopoly priviledges to power and phone companies? how is universal "healthcare" and compulsory 'free' education not pinko? why are they trying to institute a national ID and pull some RFID business? why do we have a central bank if we are not moving toward socialism?

 

just some things to ponder.

 

The thing is, I'm a realist before I'm anything else. I look at everything going on right now, and see it for what it is- a system that is destined for failure, because it takes the worst elements of capitalism, socialism and whatever-ism and makes it so only a select few can prosper, and the rest of us get the scraps. Big Business and its cronies in the government are going to cause a revolution someday, and they aren't going to have the slightest idea why because at this point, it's not even learned behavior to perpetuate this kind of madness...it's on the level of instinct, because they were born into the concept of having a sense of entitlement regardess of the cost.

 

And, the scary thing is, 90% of this country seems to think that this kind of system is sustainable...it's as if they have learned nothing from history. The decadence and hubris of the Roman Empire is something that every single American OWES themselves to read up on, over and over and over, and then they MIGHT start to see the parallels between our society and Roman society towards the end. The taxation in the Roman empire towards the end was not going towards maintaining all of the good that they had done...it was going towards fighting wars with no end, on so many fronts, because they saw fit to shove their ideology and lifestyle down the throats of other cultures without sensitivity to what those cultures meant to the people living within them. And, in the end, they lost...and it took a long, long time for civilization in the Western world to recover from the loss.

 

Whatever. We basically agree, the thing is that I don't think there's much hope for this country as a whole until they wake the fuck up. We need a few more Katrina-sized disasters for people to finally take the blinders off...more people will have to die, and more cities will probably have to be devastated...throw in a couple more 9/11s, too, while you're at it.

 

The bottom line is this- PEOPLE REFUSE TO LEARN UNTIL IT AFFECTS THEM DIRECTLY. And, usually by that point, it's too late.

[angelofdeath]

"And, the scary thing is, 90% of this country seems to think that this kind of system is sustainable...it's as if they have learned nothing from history. The decadence and hubris of the Roman Empire is something that every single American OWES themselves to read up on, over and over and over, and then they MIGHT start to see the parallels between our society and Roman society towards the end. The taxation in the Roman empire towards the end was not going towards maintaining all of the good that they had done...it was going towards fighting wars with no end, on so many fronts, because they saw fit to shove their ideology and lifestyle down the throats of other cultures without sensitivity to what those cultures meant to the people living within them. And, in the end, they lost...and it took a long, long time for civilization in the Western world to recover from the loss."

 

there are some seriously good points in this paragraph.

[Stereotype V.0002]

if they slander everyone but themselves with these harsh terms it will convince the "true blooded" Americans that they are following god will to destroy the heathens.

 

You do realize these "harsh terms" were being used to describe Bin Laden and friends, correct? Is it wrong for those god damn "red blooded" simplistic country bumpkins to want to "destroy them"? What do you propose Bush refer to them as, UBL and the sunshine band? My point being that there are more important issues to focus on within his administration than him using terms that you think are too harsh to describe people that want to see westerners in general die.

 

Hardy har har, you totally called me on that brah! I'm eating that lump of shit right now! A fox article blowing one incident among hundreds out of proportion...an incident that even with the fox inflation isn't remotely comparable to the press coverage these comments from bush and the "islamo fascist" ones have gotten. Totally eating it dawg!!