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MayorMeanBeans

Palestine = Owned.

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i know theres a million threads on this.... but considering the present i thought this might deserve its own thread. so is palestine/hamas in for it? i feel like israel doesnt want the soldier, there just ready to lay the smackdown on palestine. and flying planes over syria? damn. regardless of the politics, israel might just be the most gee country. ever. anyways, discuss i guess. does palestine stand a chance? is the us/eu just standing by while israel makes palestine scream uncle? are they gonna get the soldier back? does israel care about the soldier? is this gonna make abu mazen stop opposing hamas?

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Hamas was willing to free the kidnapped soldier in exchange for palestinian WOMEN and CHILDREN being held in israeli detention camps. Israel refused.

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Hamas was willing to free the kidnapped soldier in exchange for palestinian WOMEN and CHILDREN being held in israeli detention camps. Israel refused.

 

this is a ploy. hamas is a terrorist organization according to israel, and israel, like every other country in the world, does not negotiate with terrorists. furthermore, women and children imply that theyre innocent. women commit crimes, 17 y o's commit crimes too. stupid, maybe, but understandable.

 

as for the detention of hamas lawmakers, that points to the notion that israel is simply using this incident to undermine hamas itself, and is not so concerned about thesoldier.

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Im here...Just not in the mood for an argument.

 

My 2 cents: I hope he gets home safely with minimal casualties on both sides, both physical and political.

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yeah because the life of that one israeli soldier is so important in the context of the entire situation :shakehead:

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yeah because the life of that one israeli soldier is so important in the context of the entire situation :shakehead:

 

its the principal of the whole thing

 

you just dont abandon somebody like that

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Israel does want it wants to, when it wants to. The people of Palestine are fucked cause some yahoos are in control. this has been going on for over 2000 years. Nothing new, just the fact that the weapons are bigger. No one will ever invade Isreal cause they have nukes. Poor people at the mercy of wingnuts with guns on both sides.

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i think the israelis are fed up with the palestinians and their constant suicide bombings and mortar attacks and kidnappings and all that bullshit. ever since Sharon took power, israel has been "no bullshit" about it. invading the West Bank and the Gaza strip, assasinating hamas members, dropping bombs on palestinian government buildings... i think the prime minister's before them were more left-wing and didn't think about engaging palestine in such a way. yeah i mean i wish there was peace, but everytime the u.s. and israel try to make a truce and put palestine on the path of being an independent state, some hamas member fucks it up with another bombing or some shit.

 

if the israeli soldier hostage is killed, expect the hamas government to be removed from power, and all their leaders captured or killed. but that could happen if he lives as well, but it's guaranteed if he dies.

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One of the reasons that Israelis are pissed is because they gave up the Gaza strip and relocated thousands of people who had been living there for decades in order to work towards peace, and then they kept getting hit by rockets, suicide bombers, and gunmen.

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theo, there are 'constant suicide bombings' huh? really? but yea, palestinians are probably in love with being under a brutal occupation for almost 3 decades. and the US has never vetoed peace settlements put on the table and supported by everyone too, right? israel, like the US in iraq, is obviously the victim.

in regards to the current bullshit, since people are too lazy to click the link i posted, read:

 

Agatha In The Rain

 

by Uri Avnery*

(Saturday July 01 2006)

"The pretext for the operation - the release of the captured soldier - will only harden the attitude of the Palestinians. No issue is more important for them than the release of Palestinian prisoners - a matter that directly concerns 10 thousand Palestinian extended families, in every town, quarter and village. These families are prepared to suffer anything to secure their release."

 

"ISRAEL HAS declared war on the Palestinian people! The Palestinian people will answer in kind! The Palestinian rebellion will go on! The Palestinian fighters are steadfast in the service of the nation! Down with the Nazi-Zionist occupation! Out with the unclean infidels from the Holy Land! Destroyed Rafah - we shall build you anew! Long live the Palestinian revolution! Long live the State of Palestine!"

A Hamas leaflet of last week? Not exactly. With appropriate changes, this leaflet was published on July 2, 1946 - sixty years ago almost to the day - by the Haganah, after "Black Saturday".

Then, in the wake of a daring commando action by the Palmakh ("shock troops" of the Haganah), which blew up a number of bridges, the British government of Palestine decided to carry out a plan prepared well in advance. It was code-named "Agatha". On June 29, 1946, 17 thousand British soldiers fanned out all over the Jewish towns and kibbutzim to confiscate arms and documents and arrest the leaders of the Jewish community. The British government affirmed its determination to stamp out terrorism. In Jerusalem, the soldiers occupied the headquarters of the Jewish Agency, the de facto government of the Jewish "state within the state", and confiscated many documents that clearly established its close connections with the "terrorist headquarters" - the joint command of the Haganah, the Irgun and the Stern Group, which worked closely together at the time.

The soldiers broke into the homes of the political leaders of the Jewish community and arrested most of the Jewish Agency "ministers". The leaders were detained in Latrun. But the commanders of the underground organizations decided to continue fighting, in order to prove to the British that the arrest of the leaders had not silenced them.

"Black Saturday" was a milestone in the fight against the British. Within a year, they decided to leave the country.

The similarity between the British "Agatha" and the Israeli "Summer Rains" is striking. This shows that every occupation regime is condemned to repeat the actions of its predecessors, even when they have been proved hopeless. This does not mean that all occupiers are fools - only that the logic of occupation itself condemns them to do foolish things.

THE AIM of the present operation is, ostensibly, to free the soldier Gilad Shalit, who was captured by the Palestinian underground (consisting of several organizations), in an attack that even an Israeli military expert called "a daring commando action".

If our army had kept its high military standard, it would immediately have replaced all the commanders responsible for the debacle. 50 years ago this would have been done . But we have a different army now. Nobody was removed. The failed commanders just called the attack "a terrorist act", the fighters "terrorists" and the captured soldier "kidnapped".

The action proves, of course, an old military maxim: for every means of defense a means of attack can be found, and vice versa. The "security" fence that surrounds the Gaza Strip on all sides (except the sea), the like of which is now being built inside the West Bank, can stop thieves and people looking for work in Israel, but not determined fighters who will always find ways to cross it, whether from below or above.

The "kidnapped" soldier served as a pretext for an operation which must have been prepared a long time ago. The Israeli and international public has been told that the aim is to set him free, but in practice it has put his life in greater jeopardy. If the soldiers come near to where he is hidden, he could be killed in the cross-fire - as happened some years ago to the soldier Nakhshon Waksman, who was captured by Hamas. He was killed in the exchange of fire between the soldiers and the Palestinians. Waksman would probably be alive today, if there had been an exchange of prisoners instead.

The connection between the "kidnapped soldier" and the operation exists only in the realm of propaganda. The same goes for the second pretext: that the aim is to put an end to the launching of Qassam rockets at the town of Sderot.

True, this is indeed an intolerable situation. The Qassam, a simple and inexpensive weapon, causes more panic than real damage, like the German V-rockets fired on London in World War II. It terrorizes the population, and that is its aim. Its purpose is to break the devastating blockade that the Israeli government has been maintaining against the Gaza strip since the "disengagement". Until now, the army has not come up with a means to put a stop to the rockets.

But the Qassams, too, are not the real cause of the "Summer Rains" operation. Its character shows that it has a much wider aim: to destroy the elected Palestinian government (Israeli propaganda's "Hamas Government") and bring the Palestinian population to its knees. This is supposed to make it possible for the Israeli government to carry out the "Convergence" plan, annexing major parts of the West Bank to Israel and preventing the establishment of a viable Palestinian state.

A clear aim, which the operation is designed to attain by simple means: breaking the Palestinian population by the liquidation of its leadership, destruction of its infrastructure and cutting off of food supplies, medicines, electricity, water and sanitary services - not to mention employment. The message to the Palestinians: if you want to put an end to your suffering, remove the government you have elected.

CAN THIS succeed? Exactly like the the success of the British operation. "Agatha" achieved the very opposite.

Like all the failures of our army over the years, from the battle of Karameh in 1968, through the Egyptian crossing of the canal at the beginning of the Yom Kippur war, to the two intifadas, the reason lies with the abysmal contempt that the army commanders hold for the Arabs in general and the Palestinians in particular. The Shin Bet meets the Palestinians in the form of interrogated prisoners, who are ready to say anything at all under torture, and the despicable collaborators, who are ready to sell their cousins for drugs or money. The occupation commanders cannot imagine that the Palestinians could react like any other people, even - God forbid! - as we did in a similar situation. What, these pitiful Arabs are like us?

True, the British never behaved towards us as we do now towards the Palestinians. But on the other hand, the Palestinians' ability to suffer oppression is much greater than ours. It is based on the family structure that makes for much more effective mutual help, and on the experience of living for years in dire straits.

On "Black Saturday"' the Jewish community stood together behind its besieged leadership. The opposition from right and left rallied behind Ben-Gurion (who was abroad) and Sharett (imprisoned in Latrun). Experience shows that every people behaves like this when a foreign enemy attacks its leadership. Hamas is almost certain to emerge much strengthened from this test. The arrests prove to the Palestinian public that its is a fighting, loyal leadership, not corrupted by the amenities of power - contrary to their predecessors, some of whom were tainted by corruption.

The pretext for the operation - the release of the captured soldier - will only harden the attitude of the Palestinians. No issue is more important for them than the release of Palestinian prisoners - a matter that directly concerns 10 thousand Palestinian extended families, in every town, quarter and village. These families are prepared to suffer anything to secure their release.

THE SECOND victim of the operation is the "Convergence Plan", which has become ridiculous. In the eyes of the ordinary Israeli, it looks like this: We have left Gaza, and now we are returning. We dismantled the settlements there, and got the Qassams on Sderot in return. Sharon has failed, so Olmert will fail doubly.

That is true, but not for the obvious reasons. The withdrawal from Gaza has not brought security, because it was carried out without any dialogue or agreement with the Palestinians. It has not brought peace nearer, because it was coupled with an open intention to annex large parts of the West Bank. And, no less importantly, we did indeed leave the Gaza Strip entirely, but have blockaded it and cut it off from the world. All this is even more true for the "convergence" of Olmert.

The "Summer Rains" may have washed it off the map.

 

*Uri Avnery is a journalist, peace activist, former member of the Knesset, and leader of Gush Shalom. He is a regular contributor to Media Monitors Network (MMN).

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theo' date=' there are 'constant suicide bombings' huh? really? but yea, palestinians are probably in love with being under a brutal occupation for almost 3 decades. and the US has [i']never[/i] vetoed peace settlements put on the table and supported by everyone too, right? israel, like the US in iraq, is obviously the victim.

in regards to the current bullshit, since people are too lazy to click the link i posted, read:

 

 

yeah. within the past 6 years, there have been hundreds of suicide bombings in israel by palestinians. within the past year and half though, it has calmed down. the u.s. may have "vetoed" a peace settlement for certain reasons, but that doesn't compare to breaking truces with violence. only the palestinians have fired on innocent civilians and blew up buses when there was supposed to be a truce. all i'm saying is that the palestinians aren't going to be getting a lot of sympathy if they keep blowing up innocent people commuting to work or shopping, and shooting up busses packed with israeli school children.

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yea, and how many incursions by the IDF killed innocent civilians? as for US vetoes, i think you should take a closer look at US veto history. those vetoes are key to the continuation of violence.

and israel isn't going to get any sympathy when it bombs the only power plant in gaza, rendering the most densely populated palestinian area without power. it also decided to bomb 2 bridge's, furthering it's extreme control of palestinian movement.

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I don't condone the violence, but why do people always pick ONE side rather than try to see BOTH sides? Israel must be scared shitless since they GAVE THE GAZA STRIP to the Palestinians and are helping to create a Palenstine state just like the Palestinians wanted. Then, the new government allows Hamas to come in and share power when their message has always been about eradicating Israel from existence. Add that to the continued assaults on Isreal that are even easier for Hamas and the like to pull off since they are now right outside of the city (in Gaza), and they're probably getting really on edge. Yeah, it's fucked up that they bombed a power plant and parliamentary offices, but where is the help they should be recieving from the Palestinian government? It can't go anywhere until it goes both ways without violence.

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that response is exactly what i expected.

it's not 'picking ONE SIDE', it's providing some factual symmetry to inaccurate and biased comments. furthermore, since israel is the occupying power, it's a little hard to swallow the pro-israel line, especially when it's factually inaccurate.

i would argue the gaza withdrawal is more cosmetic than anything. it's a positive step removing outposts and settlements, but the fact remains gaza is still sealed off from the rest of the world by a barrier and israeli forces...hardly a change from the extreme restrictions already placed on the palenstinians by israel. gazans are also unable to have commerce with the west bank, and the plans to link gaza and the west bank so far are just talk. they also can't engage in any trade with israel, so any idea of resuscitating the economy in gaza is kind of ridiculous. and in lieu of the recent bombing of bridges and their only power plant which may lead to a worsening humanitarian crisis there.

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Israel rejects soldier deadline

 

Israel has rejected a deadline by Palestinian militants believed to be holding an Israeli soldier in Gaza to begin freeing Palestinian prisoners. Militants gave Israel until 0300 GMT on Tuesday to release some 1,500 prisoners or face unspecified "consequences".

But Israeli PM Ehud Olmert said he would not give in to "extortion".

Palestinians said missiles hit Gaza twice early on Tuesday, killing one militant in northern Gaza and striking the Islamic University in Gaza City.

The first strike, shortly after midnight (2200 GMT), killed one militant and injured another in the town of Beit Lahiya, Palestinian sources said.

The Israeli army said the men had been planting explosives in an area close to its forces.

 

"We give the Zionist enemy until 0600 [0300 GMT] tomorrow, Tuesday 4 July."

Two hours later a missile strike on Gaza City hit a building of the university, a stronghold of the Hamas group, Palestinians said.

The night-time strikes came after Israeli artillery pounded northern Gaza on Monday and a small force entered the area for the first time since Israel began its assault last Tuesday night.

Israeli aircraft also hit more targets across Gaza, and two militants were reported killed. Eight militants have now died since the start of the offensive.

In a statement, the three groups believed to be holding Cpl Gilad Shalit set a deadline for Israel to start releasing prisoners.

 

If Israel does not meet their demands the groups "will consider the soldier's case to be closed", the statement said.

"The enemy must bear all the consequences of the future results," it concluded.

The militant groups have demanded that all Palestinian women and young prisoners be released along with 1,000 male prisoners in exchange for information about Cpl Shalit's welfare.

The BBC's Katya Adler in Gaza City says the groups did not specify what action they would take, but, she says, Israelis will worry it may mean their soldier will be killed.

'No negotiations'

However Israel swiftly dismissed the ultimatum.

"The government of Israel will not yield to the extortion of the Palestinian Authority [PA] and the Hamas government, which are led by murderous terrorist organisations," Prime Minister Olmert's office said.

"We will not conduct any negotiations on a prisoner release."

The Hamas-led PA has denied knowledge of the whereabouts of Cpl Shalit, who was captured in a cross-border raid eight days ago.

Two other soldiers and two attackers died in the ambush.

Hamas' Izzedine al-Qassam Brigades, the Popular Resistance Committees and the little-known Islamic Army say they are holding the 19-year-old tank gunner.

Mr Olmert says Israel's army has been authorised to do whatever it takes to get Cpl Shalit back.

A small force of tanks went into northern Gaza early on Monday in what the military called a "limited" operation to find explosives and tunnels.

In northern Gaza Israeli air strikes killed one militant, while troops shot dead another, the Associated Press news agency reported.

Israeli aircraft also hit several targets across Gaza, including a building used by the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, a militant group linked to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah party.

 

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5136988.stm

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I was listening to a talk radio show where an Isreali Military general (can't remember his name) was being questioned about the tactics being currently used against the palestinians like cutting off the power , sonic booms and the questioner asked the general if he though this type of thing was in order considering that many innocent women and children are being affected .

He went on to justify these tactics by saying " You have to understand, these are the same people who voted in hamas, who's slogan is to destroy Israel."

 

Immediately, I thought of a letter I read a few years ago that was attributed to Usaamah Ibn laaden (osama bin laden) that justified the sept. 11 attacks by saying that since America is a democracy that votes in it's leaders , then the average American citizen deserves to die because they themselves vote and have power over foreign policy that kills muslims etc. etc.

 

this type of thinking is dangerous. With this type of thinking, we can rationalize killing anybody or terrorizing anyone for whatever reason we think up.

 

Everyone has their own cushy opinions here, but wait until the fighting comes to your doorstep. I guarantee people will see things differently then.

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yea, and how many incursions by the IDF killed innocent civilians? as for US vetoes, i think you should take a closer look at US veto history. those vetoes are key to the continuation of violence.

and israel isn't going to get any sympathy when it bombs the only power plant in gaza, rendering the most densely populated palestinian area without power. it also decided to bomb 2 bridge's, furthering it's extreme control of palestinian movement.

 

Hey, did you forget this was in response to Hamas militants crossing the border and kidnapping an Israeli soldier?

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