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Guest imported_El Mamerro

So, what comes to your mind

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Originally posted by Stereotype V.001+Apr 1 2006, 02:04 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Stereotype V.001 - Apr 1 2006, 02:04 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Dawood@Mar 31 2006, 12:37 AM

They want us to believe that destruction is reform, killing is life, disorder is order and injustice is justice

 

You're talking about Islam, right? Remember when you described how your religion worships death, or "martyrdom"?

[/b]

 

I never said that, bring my words, I never said my religion worships death. We worship the creator, only the creator, not Death, not life, nothing but the creator.

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Originally posted by Stereotype V.001+Mar 31 2006, 10:04 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Stereotype V.001 - Mar 31 2006, 10:04 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Dawood@Mar 31 2006, 12:37 AM

They want us to believe that destruction is reform, killing is life, disorder is order and injustice is justice

 

You're talking about Islam, right? Remember when you described how your religion worships death, or "martyrdom"?

[/b]

 

No, he's talking about America. If you don't have a real arguement don't go twisting niggas words just to invent one.

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Originally posted by Stereotype V.001+Mar 31 2006, 09:34 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Stereotype V.001 - Mar 31 2006, 09:34 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>
Originally posted by Lonesome Cowboy Bill@Mar 30 2006, 11:29 PM

remeber our militray is for DEFENSE, not offense (at least ideally)

 

<!--QuoteBegin-BURLAP@Mar 31 2006, 03:50 PM

the favoured truth is that american intervention is "defense"..protecting democracy and all those sorts of cheery things..which in a way is sort of true, but in a completely twisted and brutal way.

 

By this logic, World War II was also an illegal action and wasn't in self defense. The Germans never attacked or held any of our soil. The Japanese only held a remote piece of Alaska, the Aleutian Islands, and we fought them across the Pacific until we obliterated two of their cities (way overkill brah).

[/b]

 

 

 

WWII was fought for economic reasons, plain and simple...people like to idealize if was for more altruistic purposes but no...our war w/ japan was the conclusion of the concept of manifest destiny and really dates to us and UK imperialism in the 19th century in asia...germany, same thing...control of Europe and mideast oil... it wasn't about saving the jews or stopping facism... it was alll about economics...

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Originally posted by Stereotype V.001+Mar 31 2006, 10:34 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Stereotype V.001 - Mar 31 2006, 10:34 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>
Originally posted by Lonesome Cowboy Bill@Mar 30 2006, 11:29 PM

remeber our militray is for DEFENSE, not offense (at least ideally)

 

Originally posted by BURLAP@Mar 31 2006, 03:50 PM

the favoured truth is that american intervention is "defense"..protecting democracy and all those sorts of cheery things..which in a way is sort of true, but in a completely twisted and brutal way.

 

By this logic, World War II was also an illegal action and wasn't in self defense. The Germans never attacked or held any of our soil. The Japanese only held a remote piece of Alaska, the Aleutian Islands, and we fought them across the Pacific until we obliterated two of their cities (way overkill brah).

[/b]

 

 

 

Actually Germany sank one or more of our ships in international waters and Japan flat out attacked us at Pearl Harbor. God you're stupid for someone that drips... " condescension, and self righteousness".

 

 

 

 

<!--QuoteBegin-Stereotype V.001@Mar 31 2006, 10:34 PM

On a side note, the condescension, ignorance, and self righteousness that is literally dripping off many of you in this thread on the views of US servicemen are amazing and also exactly what I expected to hear. God bless America, home of the selfish and land of the ungrateful.

Enjoy your right to talk shit about the government, your oil and your SUVs, your food, your cozy warm beds, your colleges, your Prozac and your weed, and the fact that you don’t speak German… because the very same poor redneck, inferior to your massive intellectual prowess, misinformed, and stupid, who got suckered into murdering the other team in such an arbitrary way, have gave you those rights with his blood.

 

 

 

 

Not too many people are on here cursing the soldiers. Most people blame this fucked up ass-backwards government for sending them there under the pretence of fabricated lies and downright imperialism. But neither the soldiers fighting over there nor the government that sent them there has anything to do with our comfort and "freedom". Espescially when that same government is stripping us all of our freedoms and rights left and right.

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Originally posted by Stereotype V.001+Mar 31 2006, 06:34 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Stereotype V.001 - Mar 31 2006, 06:34 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>
Originally posted by Lonesome Cowboy Bill@Mar 30 2006, 11:29 PM

remeber our militray is for DEFENSE, not offense (at least ideally)

 

<!--QuoteBegin-BURLAP@Mar 31 2006, 03:50 PM

the favoured truth is that american intervention is "defense"..protecting democracy and all those sorts of cheery things..which in a way is sort of true, but in a completely twisted and brutal way.

 

By this logic, World War II was also an illegal action and wasn't in self defense. The Germans never attacked or held any of our soil. The Japanese only held a remote piece of Alaska, the Aleutian Islands, and we fought them across the Pacific until we obliterated two of their cities (way overkill brah). This logic would also call any preventative military actions illegal and imperialist ect, like what we could have done in Rwanda to prevent genocide or what many of you have suggested we do in Darfur. (I can hear it already "No Janjaweed neva called me a nigga! Bring our troops home!")

 

On a side note, the condescension, ignorance, and self righteousness that is literally dripping off many of you in this thread on the views of US servicemen are amazing and also exactly what I expected to hear. God bless America, home of the selfish and land of the ungrateful. Enjoy your right to talk shit about the government, your oil and your SUVs, your food, your cozy warm beds, your colleges, your Prozac and your weed, and the fact that you don’t speak German… because the very same poor redneck, inferior to your massive intellectual prowess, misinformed, and stupid, who got suckered into murdering the other team in such an arbitrary way, have gave you those rights with his blood. Speaking of Orwell, there is some quote that your reactions are bringing to mind. Something about sleeping safe in your beds at night? Eh, must be a misquotation because it disagrees with what I use his politics for.

[/b]

 

 

oh cool, you can speak for my logic, then extrapolate some convenient examples that fit your political point of view into a nice and neat black and white portrait...how great, now i can sleep well tonight knowing you bothered to take time out of your busy day job as a librarian at the pentagon to get all..'condescending' and 'self righteous'.

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Originally posted by Dawood+Mar 31 2006, 11:02 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dawood - Mar 31 2006, 11:02 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>I never said that, bring my words, I never said my religion worships death. We worship the creator, only the creator, not Death, not life, nothing but the creator.

[/b]

 

Ok then

 

<!--QuoteBegin-Dawood@Feb 16 2006, 10:05 AM

Muslims aren't scared of your rootinest tootinest. We love death like you love life.

 

Dawood, you seem like a good guy, you take care of your family which is more than most do...but you come off as more than a little crazy with your religious views. Islam has gotten a bad rap because elements of it that have gone pretty much insane, but comments like the one above from so called moderate Muslims really don't help the perception.

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Lonesome Cowboy Bill was the only person to actually back up his comments, successfully.

 

Ban-this/HeinrichHimmler- Just because we lost a few ships and were attacked at Pearl Harbor doesn’t remotely make WWII a defensive action. Defense would have been setting up strong coastal fortifications and waiting to fight off an invasion. Instead, we went to their countries, destroyed their armies, infrastructure, and a lot of their cities. We went on the offensive. And if you see a justification for WWII based on the Pearl Harbor attack, why don’t you see a justification for the wars in the Middle East right now? We were struck by Al Qaeda on 9-11, assuming you don’t buy into the conspiracy theories, and we are fighting Al Qaeda and other Muslim extremists in both Iraq and Afghanistan right now. It’s ok for you to pick and choose where your theory for defense and offense is applicable, I guess.

 

And since some of you have your heads so far up your ass you don’t see how a lot of these comments are ridiculously condescending and offensive if said to the man this thread is based on, here are some examples…

� but one day he'll ask if they should have been there in the first place.�

What makes you think he wasn’t asking himself that question on the flight to Kuwait?

 

�He did what he thought he had to do.�

No, he did what he HAD to do. He ran into some of the few Iraqis who weren’t going to surrender, the republican guard. He had the choice of retreating, and let some guy in a supply truck behind him get ambushed, or do his job and kill them before they killed him.

 

�Are my wages going to be higher after the war? Am I going to be able to afford medical insurance after the war? Probably not.�

Oh, it doesn’t directly benefit you. You poor thing.

 

“hey a guy that killed 20 Iraqis wow he just achieved the american dream�

Yeah, I bet he was just thrilled he took someone else’s life. You get the picture.

 

Burlap, once again I apologize for taking your post as what was written instead of the opposite of what it said…I will try harder to decode it in the future. Back to filing more books now!

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And on the thread topic, there are tons of stories like the one above. The SAS sniper team that killed 3 suicide bombers consecutively before they could detonate themselves at restaurants and markets, or the Marine who smothered a grenade with his own body before it could go off and kill his squad. But a lot of people share the attitudes in here so it doesn't sell and therefore isn't newsworthy. People cringe when they think about what actually goes on, they prefer just to see numbers of the dead and hear about large offensive operations, things that are very impersonal.

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Originally posted by Stereotype V.001@Apr 1 2006, 09:33 AM

Burlap, once again I apologize for taking your post as what was written instead of the opposite of what it said…I will try harder to decode it in the future. Back to filing more books now!

 

*sigh*..i'm so glad to see this back and forth shit never gets old for you.....

i'd accept, but the sincerity is too much(same with the accuracy). i know, it's alot more fun to yank your panties way up your ass so you can foist your shit on somebody else rather than ask for clarification of some sort, but it seems that wouldn't allow you the opportunity to make yourself feel superior and special on this here bastion of scholarly prose called crossfire.

i understand you really have an issue with my generalised statements pretty much all the time(and i'm sorry i can't spend the same amount of time on my posts as you do, laying down the law and all), but in the future, you could ask for some clarification/specifics instead of trying to tell me that what i was really trying to do was make a specific, black and white assertion of logic about ww2 or rwanda, 2 really great examples you conveniently plucked from the mud. that'd be swell for the inevitable next instance where you just can't stand not to quote me and continue this positive exchange of (imaginary) words.

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Originally posted by Stereotype V.001+Apr 1 2006, 05:09 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Stereotype V.001 - Apr 1 2006, 05:09 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>
Originally posted by Dawood@Mar 31 2006, 11:02 PM

I never said that, bring my words, I never said my religion worships death. We worship the creator, only the creator, not Death, not life, nothing but the creator.

 

Ok then

 

<!--QuoteBegin-Dawood@Feb 16 2006, 10:05 AM

Muslims aren't scared of your rootinest tootinest. We love death like you love life.

 

Dawood, you seem like a good guy, you take care of your family which is more than most do...but you come off as more than a little crazy with your religious views. Islam has gotten a bad rap because elements of it that have gone pretty much insane, but comments like the one above from so called moderate Muslims really don't help the perception.

[/b]

 

"we love death like you love life" is not a statement of worship. Worship to me is prayer, fasting, charity and sacrifice with sincerety toward the creator of the heavens and earth, hoping for his mercy because of my faith and acts of obedience.

What that statement actually means is that a muslim sees death as a new beginning, as the real start to an everlasting paradise. I see this life as a very short transient period compared to eternity in the afterlife. I view myself as a traveller, not a resident here on this earth. I don't plan to be here long. 50-60-70 even 80 or 90 years is an eyeblink compared to eternity.

On the contrary, we witness people who would like to live here in this world forever, seeking fountains of youth and building high fortresses to protect them from death, but the soul of every human will be taken from his body and placed into it's eternal abode. And we ask Allah for the good end.

 

O you who believe! What is the matter with you, that when you are asked to march forth in the Cause of Allâh you cling heavily to the earth? Are you pleased with the life of this world rather than the Hereafter? But little is the enjoyment of the life of this world as compared with the Hereafter. (At-Tawbah 9:38)

 

"O my people! Truly, this life of the world is nothing but a (quick passing) enjoyment, and verily, the Hereafter that is the home that will remain forever." (Ghafir 40:39)

 

So, stereotype it was actually a spiritual statement, but you like to take things out of context .

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Guest imported_El Mamerro

So Stereotype, what came to your mind when you read the article? What kind of a feeling did you get?

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Ok, in order…

 

Burlap, the post was about your and lonesomecowboybill’s views on whether the military should be defensive, and why the “elites� don’t want it to be, etc. Not all of my posts are personal attacks directed towards you, so there’s no need to get so offended and write a book report every time I post something. Since you said yourself you don’t want to keep the “back and forth� going, I’ll leave it at that, although you probably won’t.

 

Dawood- sorry, I didn’t think you explaining that there are Arab Catholics was pertinent information. Here is the full post, in context.

Originally posted by Dawood@Feb 16 2006, 10:05 AM

You think there are no Arab catholics in the world? Do you think all Arabs are muslims? If that's what you think then you need to re-evaluate your geographical outlook. Oh, and as far as your "you want war it's gonna be war statement" then, let it be known. Muslims aren't scared of your rootinest tootinest. We love death like you love life.

Your soldiers go to war in hopes of coming home and going to college, Muslim soldiers go to war in hopes of raising up the word of Allah above your manmade ways of life or being martyred and going to paradise. Your boys are scared little kids acting tough.

It's better to have peace, but If you fight us, we fight you, cowboy.

and with all that rootin tootin your bound to shoot yourselves in the foot. Keep sendin over to die. keep supporting your homicidal administration Milton, someday you'll regret it when you grow up.

So this is a spiritual statement? It seems to be more of a justification for suicide bombings and your reasoning why the Muslims “soldiers� will win in Iraq than a spiritual statement…but in all fairness, your love of death actually is a key spiritual part of your beliefs, so I guess I am wrong. Back to the original point in quoting you, your description of American foreign policy-

� They want us to believe that destruction is reform, killing is life, disorder is order and injustice is justice�

-is really spot on with your own description of Islam.

 

El Mammero- When I read the article I first thought its presentation was a little corny, and that Captain is more of a man than I will ever be. I then thought how awesome and superior I am, not to have gotten tricked by those wily Marine Corps recruiter ninjas…then go destroy the wonderfully peaceful fantasy land paradise that was Iraq, and kill the poor defenseless iron hand of Saddam, the republican guard. Then I wondered what it would be like if I was on the iron chef, but forgot how to cook.

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Guest imported_Tesseract
Originally posted by Stereotype V.001@Apr 2 2006, 06:51 PM

 

El Mammero- When I read the article I first thought its presentation was a little corny, and that Captain is more of a man than I will ever be. I then thought how awesome and superior I am, not to have gotten tricked by those wily Marine Corps recruiter ninjas…then go destroy the wonderfully peaceful fantasy land paradise that was Iraq, and kill the poor defenseless iron hand of Saddam, the republican guard. Then I wondered what it would be like if I was on the iron chef, but forgot how to cook.

 

Since everybody else is taking you seriously and trying to really have a dialogue over this, i just wanna highlight that you come across as a complete bitch who flakes when in the corner.bye

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Originally posted by Stereotype V.001@Apr 2 2006, 03:51 PM

Burlap, the post was about your and lonesomecowboybill’s views on whether the military should be defensive, and why the “elites� don’t want it to be, etc. Not all of my posts are personal attacks directed towards you, so there’s no need to get so offended and write a book report every time I post something. Since you said yourself you don’t want to keep the “back and forth� going, I’ll leave it at that, although you probably won’t.

 

"although you probably won't"...whoa, checkmate!

listen, i rarely post around here, but i notice lately everytime i post something, you get your ass cramped up and decide to quote me, then proceed to use it as an excuse to tell me exactly what i really meant, which as it turns out is complete bullshit and of course fits snugly with your own political stance. it's a wonderfully cheap tactic you use on alot of people in crossfire. i couldn't give a fuck about any of your posts, but if you quote me, you might just get a reply(imagine that!). don't quote me and you can keep on being crossfire's king dick with impunity.

 

now for the last paragraph of my book report, i'd just like to say that maybe it's me, but it seems you need to relax or somethin'...like...you've got quite the chip on your shoulder..i dunno, go shoot some M16's, get laid, have a puff, whatever pops your acne and lets you not get so worked up about a handful of opinions on a graffiti forum.

oh, and of course you're free to reply with more of the same. bye for now.

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Guest imported_El Mamerro
Originally posted by Stereotype V.001@Apr 2 2006, 06:51 PM

 

El Mammero- When I read the article I first thought its presentation was a little corny, and that Captain is more of a man than I will ever be. I then thought how awesome and superior I am, not to have gotten tricked by those wily Marine Corps recruiter ninjas…then go destroy the wonderfully peaceful fantasy land paradise that was Iraq, and kill the poor defenseless iron hand of Saddam, the republican guard. Then I wondered what it would be like if I was on the iron chef, but forgot how to cook.

 

 

Alright dude, no offense, but if that's really all that came to mind, meaning you have nothing more to offer to this discussion, then I'd appreciate if you step aside and quit jabbing and baiting other people cause it makes you feel clever.

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Originally posted by BAN-THIS!!!@Mar 31 2006, 02:48 PM

So you have zero sympathy for our grunts that were suckered into joining the military and are now fighting for their lives over there? You refuse to recognise this guys heroism simply because he's American? That's kind of shallow and simple minded don't you think? Actually it's pretty retarded don't you think?

its pretty easy for you to attack an argument i didnt even make buddy boy

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Originally posted by yum+Apr 3 2006, 12:51 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yum - Apr 3 2006, 12:51 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>
Originally posted by BAN-THIS!!!@Mar 31 2006, 02:48 PM

So you have zero sympathy for our grunts that were suckered into joining the military and are now fighting for their lives over there? You refuse to recognise this guys heroism simply because he's American? That's kind of shallow and simple minded don't you think? Actually it's pretty retarded don't you think?

its pretty easy for you to attack an argument i didnt even make buddy boy

[/b]

 

 

<!--QuoteBegin-yum@Mar 30 2006, 10:24 PM

yeha im sure i would be, however im not so i can sympathise with the dead guys in soem trench in their town a lot more than i can with the guys from the other side of the world hicking around in their humvee

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and where in that post do i say any of this?

 

"I have no sympathy for our grunts that were suckered into joining the military and are now fighting for their lives over there"

 

"I refuse to recognise this guys heroism simply because he's American"

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El Mammero-

 

For my non-sarcastic thoughts on what came to mind, you have to admit the whole layout of the “article� is hokey, and you could have just as easily found an article that doesn’t have the aura of a hallmark card through googleEDIT- like this, found in a 10 second search ... And maybe even a similar story that doesn’t involve 200 poor, defenseless Iraqis getting mowed down by the American aggressors, which is obviously going to evoke a knee jerk reaction with this crowd. Unless that’s what you were going for. Using what he went through as some sort of half assed science experiment might also be a little bit tasteless, not that anyone cares. That being said I have nothing but admiration and respect for the man, I personally have no trouble coming to terms with him making sure that the supply lines behind him or his platoon didn't get ambushed and killed. The republican guard didn't have facilities for prisoners, and wouldn't have simply disbanded our forces to freely leave if they had won. He did what he had to do in a really shitty situation, and did it very well.

 

Anyways, you are right. I did bait people and take jabs at them in this thread to an extent. My attempt at a conversation on the merits of a defense based military seemed to infuriate some people, and was also off topic. But in some of the posts, I made some observations on the ONLY other viewpoint in this thread. After reading the way people responded to the “article�, don’t expect me to walk on eggshells and sugarcoat the responses that are on topic for the benefit of someone who might get butt hurt. I guess a different opinion on what has been posted already is going to be taken as a jab (which I didn’t intend it as)… and if the only discussion you want is the same bullshit that has been posted 20 plus times in here already (albeit worded slightly differently), then I apologize for disagreeing in strong terms and will let you guys get back to agreeing with each other.. or the stellar dialogue like the three posts above this.

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Guest imported_El Mamerro

See, the reason I pointed the specific article I did is because I've seen quite a bit of similarly-written stories, many of them being passed around by veterans. I got the link from another board I frequent (Cigar Aficionado), which has mostly conservative political leanings amongst its members.

 

The veterans are raving about it. They share stories and links like this all the time and praise them as the ultimate acts of heroism, and they are all written with that fervent, almost bloodthirsty excitement that gives it that "hallmark aura". I don't ever see a link to a story where a soldier commited an act of heroism that didn't involve killing a lot of people. And I'm not saying there aren't, cause you just proved you can find one within 10 seconds and I'm sure hundreds happen every day, but I haven't seen these veterans praise its virtues in the same way.

 

Which is what brings me to the point of this thread... what do we consider heroism to be vs. what a soldier/veteran considers it to be, and consequently, what does supporting them mean. Basically I'm saying "I admire and respect you, but I'm not proud of what you did", and it sounds fucking terrible, it doesn't sound supportive at all even though I feel I am.

 

As for the baiting, you know you are perfectly capable of responding with tough arguments, not walking on eggshells or sugarcoating anything, WITHOUT resorting to your same tired routine of mocking the opposite viewpoint with caricaturesque imitations ("Wait........you mean, we actually KILL people in a war? JESUS CHRIST MONKEY BALLS!!!!!!!") and sending the thread reeling off course. You know exactly what I'm talking about, and don't pretend that what you offered here was anything more than that... and if it was, it got lost in the nonsense.

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Originally posted by yum+Apr 3 2006, 07:16 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yum - Apr 3 2006, 07:16 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>and where in that post do i say any of this?

 

"I have no sympathy for our grunts that were suckered into joining the military and are now fighting for their lives over there"

 

"I refuse to recognise this guys heroism simply because he's American"

[/b]

 

 

<!--QuoteBegin-yum@Mar 30 2006, 10:24 PM

i can sympathise with the dead guys in soem trench in their town a lot more than i can with the guys from the other side of the world hicking around in their humvee

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not gonna bother arguing anymore man anyone that can read can see that what i said doesnt equate to what you claim i said so ill leave it at that

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