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IRAN-why not North Korea & VENEZUELA ?


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Originally posted by Tesseract@Mar 29 2006, 02:13 PM

^haha, good one.

If you havent noticed, the 'six day' war hasnt ended still

 

thats tricky. technicly its over, and Israel did win but there are somethings that were a fallout of the war that are still unresolved. Not to mention the fact that Syria is still at "war" with us (israel).

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Originally posted by El Mamerro+Mar 29 2006, 05:01 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (El Mamerro - Mar 29 2006, 05:01 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-KING BLING@Mar 29 2006, 04:44 AM

I've seen you say this in other threads and I was hoping you might elaborate.  Why do you feel so strongly against the guy, and do you feel that he is worse than other leaders through out South America?

 

I'm genuinely curious, fill in me when you can...

 

 

If you know spanish, sit down and watch his show. In 5 minutes you'll understand what I mean.

 

Chavez leads by charisma, by doling out hopes and promises of a brighter future to people who will probably not see any of it. He is blatantly establishing a cult of personality in his country, and I'm sorry, but that just doesn't fly by me. I have nothing against a charismatic leader, but when that becomes the focus of a leader's entire work, it's inevitable that further decisions will be made with maintaining that image first and foremost, and actually running the country will get pushed into a secondary plane. His entire routine consists of describing just how wonderful things will eventually be without those evil capitalist interests involved, making vaguely threatening gestures towards said interests, and expounding the virtues of the Bolivarian ideal. Switch capitalist interests with terrorism and Bolivarian ideal with democracy, and... you get the point.

 

All style, no substance. Time will tell if he's an effective leader or not, but I just have this serious lack of trust with these types of people in charge.

[/b]

 

basically Mam sums it up nicely right here..

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Originally posted by Stereotype V.001@Mar 29 2006, 05:00 PM

El Mamerro is right on the money about Chavez. It hurts my head to see people get sucked into his bullshit, and actually ask questions like “hey, he’s not so bad, why all the hostility?� after reading about the things he blatantly does you can only imagine what goes on behind the scenes. I wonder how you guys would of reacted to Stalin. On a side note, “ban-this� is SF right, or is there actually someone else out there that ignorant and inclined to use dozens of emoticons for each sentence? I’ve missed you little buddy!

 

I'm not SF. But you're deffinately getting paid good money to hang out on this board aren't ya?

 

 

Get that money homie! :haha:

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Originally posted by BAN-THIS!!!+Mar 29 2006, 08:18 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BAN-THIS!!! - Mar 29 2006, 08:18 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Getzup@Mar 29 2006, 02:07 PM

EVERY SINGLE WAR ISRAEL HAS FACED, IT HAS WON!!!!

 

With U.S. help of course. If it wasn't for us having their back they would have been over-run by the locals decades ago. Actually they would never have exsisted to begin with.

[/b]

 

Actually you have no idea what your talking about.

 

The US only agreed to make the Jewish state "official" after Russia eagerly did, the US was one the fence until Russia's move.

 

As far as the wars Israel has fought; the US provided little aid until recently. Most of Israel’s weapons where from Russia, France, and whatever they captured in previous wars.

 

The fact that Israel has one of the most powerful armies, the best airforce, one of the most advance tank units in the world, and most would agree the best intelligence agency, is the reason they are not "overrun by the locals".

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Originally posted by Stereotype V.001+Mar 29 2006, 03:56 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Stereotype V.001 - Mar 29 2006, 03:56 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>
Originally posted by tsuifuku@Mar 28 2006, 05:22 PM

^Venezuela has the right to build an army, and aquire any type of weapons/weapons technology they wish, they are a soverign nation.

 

I guess a little bit off topic, but most people who share the views you have also believe that the US’s massive military and bloated military budget is wrong, examples of how we are the imperialist pigs of doom, ect. So, do you also accept the United State’s right to build an army and acquire “any� weapons we want, or is that a one way street for Venezuela only? Wouldn’t that be a tad hypocritical?

 

The thing is, Venezuela isnt engaged in Imperialist practices, Venezuela is not invading Iraq or Afghanistan. The US is bitching about 100,000 AKM rifles, which in reality is nothing, i'm sure there are that many or more on the civilian market in the united states. As for the aircraft the US is pissed about... Venezuela should be able to defend themselves against hostilities weather from the United States itself or from the United States by proxy (Colombia)

 

<!--QuoteBegin-tsuifuku@Mar 28 2006, 05:22 PM

On Chavez controlling the media/locking up and torturing dissidents? Uh no. When i was in venezuela there were anti chavez protests in another area of caracas - venezuelan doctors protesting cuban doctors in the country.

Media on lockdown? Then why can you get FOX FUCKING NEWS IN VENEZUELA?

 

I’m guessing you either have family there, or came down for the WTO parties held by Chavez since Caracas isn’t exactly a place to buy a timeshare at. If you have family in Caracas who can afford a TV, and a satellite to get US news channels, there is a mighty good chance they are some of the few rich people there who probably have ties to the Chavez government which would bring your motives into question. What’s much more likely is you were there for the WTO/WSF protests...and bong circles (just a joke!), that were scheduled and run by Chavez’s people…do you honestly think they would have let you seen anything that might shake their western following of college kids they are oh so dependant on? And let me guess, you’re FOX news signal was from a hotel, that you were staying at with other westerners? Not to mention a protest against Cuban doctor’s is not quite the most damaging and critical jab at Chavez’s govt. I implore you to read some of the links above on what happens to people who genuinely criticize his government.

 

One tiny example, also posted above, since scrolling up and reading something on the subject is so difficult…

EXAMPLE OF CHAVEZ'S AWESOMENESS, PART DEUX!

"Abuses during demonstrations

 

At least 14 people died during nationwide anti-government demonstrations in February and March. As many as 200 were wounded and several of those detained were ill-treated or tortured by members of the security forces. Investigations into the abuses were slow and inadequate, reportedly due to the lack of impartiality of the police and judiciary.

 

* Carlos Eduardo Izcaray stated that he was observing one of the demonstrations in Caracas on 1 March when the situation became increasingly violent. He tried to leave the area but was detained with others by members of the National Guard and repeatedly beaten and threatened with death in an attempt to make him admit to participating in violent acts. He filed a complaint with the Attorney General’s Office after he was released without charge."

 

More

 

[/b]

 

When i stayed in Venezuela i stayed in a nationalized factory that had nothing but venezuelan news on all day. However you could go into a bar and watch CNN or something of that nature. In the location where I stayed, there was a mixture of Libyans, Venezuelans, Americans, and Japanese.

I dont think Chavez is some sort of great flaming revolutionary, but I do think the gains made in Venezuela need to be defended politcally against US imperialism.

Its probably best to agree to disagree on this issue, i'm sure we wont change each others minds, if you wish to keep the discussion going, thats fine.

 

Something we can agree on: Venezuelan women are udd sexy.

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Originally posted by tsuifuku+Mar 29 2006, 09:56 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tsuifuku - Mar 29 2006, 09:56 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>
Originally posted by Stereotype V.001@Mar 29 2006, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by tsuifuku@Mar 28 2006, 05:22 PM

^Venezuela has the right to build an army, and aquire any type of weapons/weapons technology they wish, they are a soverign nation.

 

I guess a little bit off topic, but most people who share the views you have also believe that the US’s massive military and bloated military budget is wrong, examples of how we are the imperialist pigs of doom, ect. So, do you also accept the United State’s right to build an army and acquire “any� weapons we want, or is that a one way street for Venezuela only? Wouldn’t that be a tad hypocritical?

 

The thing is, Venezuela isnt engaged in Imperialist practices, Venezuela is not invading Iraq or Afghanistan. The US is bitching about 100,000 AKM rifles, which in reality is nothing, i'm sure there are that many or more on the civilian market in the united states. As for the aircraft the US is pissed about... Venezuela should be able to defend themselves against hostilities weather from the United States itself or from the United States by proxy (Colombia)

 

<!--QuoteBegin-tsuifuku@Mar 28 2006, 05:22 PM

On Chavez controlling the media/locking up and torturing dissidents? Uh no. When i was in venezuela there were anti chavez protests in another area of caracas - venezuelan doctors protesting cuban doctors in the country.

Media on lockdown? Then why can you get FOX FUCKING NEWS IN VENEZUELA?

 

I’m guessing you either have family there, or came down for the WTO parties held by Chavez since Caracas isn’t exactly a place to buy a timeshare at. If you have family in Caracas who can afford a TV, and a satellite to get US news channels, there is a mighty good chance they are some of the few rich people there who probably have ties to the Chavez government which would bring your motives into question. What’s much more likely is you were there for the WTO/WSF protests...and bong circles (just a joke!), that were scheduled and run by Chavez’s people…do you honestly think they would have let you seen anything that might shake their western following of college kids they are oh so dependant on? And let me guess, you’re FOX news signal was from a hotel, that you were staying at with other westerners? Not to mention a protest against Cuban doctor’s is not quite the most damaging and critical jab at Chavez’s govt. I implore you to read some of the links above on what happens to people who genuinely criticize his government.

 

One tiny example, also posted above, since scrolling up and reading something on the subject is so difficult…

EXAMPLE OF CHAVEZ'S AWESOMENESS, PART DEUX!

"Abuses during demonstrations

 

At least 14 people died during nationwide anti-government demonstrations in February and March. As many as 200 were wounded and several of those detained were ill-treated or tortured by members of the security forces. Investigations into the abuses were slow and inadequate, reportedly due to the lack of impartiality of the police and judiciary.

 

* Carlos Eduardo Izcaray stated that he was observing one of the demonstrations in Caracas on 1 March when the situation became increasingly violent. He tried to leave the area but was detained with others by members of the National Guard and repeatedly beaten and threatened with death in an attempt to make him admit to participating in violent acts. He filed a complaint with the Attorney General’s Office after he was released without charge."

 

More

 

 

When i stayed in Venezuela i stayed in a nationalized factory that had nothing but venezuelan news on all day. However you could go into a bar and watch CNN or something of that nature. In the location where I stayed, there was a mixture of Libyans, Venezuelans, Americans, and Japanese.

I dont think Chavez is some sort of great flaming revolutionary, but I do think the gains made in Venezuela need to be defended politcally against US imperialism.

Its probably best to agree to disagree on this issue, i'm sure we wont change each others minds, if you wish to keep the discussion going, thats fine.

 

Something we can agree on: Venezuelan women are udd sexy.

[/b]

 

 

Yeah....i noticed this too....there were alot of Japanese people in Venezuela and sushi was fucking popular...like there would be 3 sushi restaurants ever three blocks (i stayed in las palos grandes area)......oh yeah and yes Venezuelan women are VERY sexy....just go to Centro Comercial San Ignacio on a friday night......DAMN!

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Guest KING BLING
Originally posted by CALIgula@Mar 29 2006, 03:33 AM

....just cause you have a LARGE standing army doesn't mean you can supply them all......

 

I don't know if anyone here is truly Zionist, or perhaps from Israel or just likes the country because it isn't Muslim but...

 

The US is the most powerful Army, Navy, Air Force and anything else in the world, right? Well we could beat the army but not control the ground we took in Iraq with a population that is basicly a third of Iran. Technology is relevant in arguments, but Vietnam is the proof that supply is not adequate compensation for heart and purpose. Israel can shake of the surrounding countries but it isn't as strong as you might want to beleive.

 

But really, I think my real point will follow here...

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Originally posted by KING BLING+Mar 30 2006, 12:53 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KING BLING - Mar 30 2006, 12:53 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-CALIgula@Mar 29 2006, 03:33 AM

....just cause you have a LARGE standing army doesn't mean you can supply them all......

 

I don't know if anyone here is truly Zionist, or perhaps from Israel or just likes the country because it isn't Muslim but...

 

The US is the most powerful Army, Navy, Air Force and anything else in the world, right? Well we could beat the army but not control the ground we took in Iraq with a population that is basicly a third of Iran. Technology is relevant in arguments, but Vietnam is the proof that supply is not adequate compensation for heart and purpose. Israel can shake of the surrounding countries but it isn't as strong as you might want to beleive.

 

But really, I think my real point will follow here...

[/b]

 

 

I agree....its hard to take Iraq because of insurgency (they know the territorry and can fight well on it)....same as vietnam....hell...same as us fighting the britsh...but....as far as Iran goes.....the U.S. more than likely wont send in many ground troops...theyll just bomb the nuclear reactors from the sky...by the way im not Zionist, Jewish, or Muslim...just stating the facts..

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Guest KING BLING
Originally posted by Stereotype V.001@Mar 29 2006, 12:56 PM

I guess a little bit off topic, but most people who share the views you have also believe that the US’s massive military and bloated military budget is wrong, examples of how we are the imperialist pigs of doom, ect. So, do you also accept the United State’s right to build an army and acquire “any� weapons we want, or is that a one way street for Venezuela only? Wouldn’t that be a tad hypocritical?

 

 

 

 

I fit this mold but let me give it a more logical basis. First and foremost I beleive the US should cut the military budget, not just outright but in a course of peaceful actions and global community embracing policies. So with my hope that we stop being a war machine, since this won't happen, I respect other countries desire to protect themselves from the US and the CIA and other aggressors. I think its condescending to other countries that our corporate elite government and red state hill billy dumb shit government would tell them not to build weapons we have 5,000 of already. If we don't like it, we shouldn't just tell them not to! I don't want anyone building weapons, but I also don't like bullies acting only in their own interest...

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Originally posted by KING BLING+Mar 30 2006, 01:09 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KING BLING - Mar 30 2006, 01:09 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Stereotype V.001@Mar 29 2006, 12:56 PM

I guess a little bit off topic, but most people who share the views you have also believe that the US’s massive military and bloated military budget is wrong, examples of how we are the imperialist pigs of doom, ect. So, do you also accept the United State’s right to build an army and acquire “any� weapons we want, or is that a one way street for Venezuela only? Wouldn’t that be a tad hypocritical?

 

 

 

 

I fit this mold but let me give it a more logical basis. First and foremost I beleive the US should cut the military budget, not just outright but in a course of peaceful actions and global community embracing policies. So with my hope that we stop being a war machine, since this won't happen, I respect other countries desire to protect themselves from the US and the CIA and other aggressors. I think its condescending to other countries that our corporate elite government and red state hill billy dumb shit government would tell them not to build weapons we have 5,000 of already. If we don't like it, we shouldn't just tell them not to! I don't want anyone building weapons, but I also don't like bullies acting only in their own interest...

[/b]

 

 

WOW....I AGREE WITH THIS 110% .....we need to cut our defense spending....all the money we spent on defense didnt really do anything for us as far as 9/11......the money we cut from defense should go to EDUCATION..

 

CIA.....is bullshit.....they infiltrate other countries and try to "fuck up" their governments..

 

and lastly i agree with this statement:

 

"I don't want anyone building weapons, but I also don't like bullies acting only in their own interest..."

 

 

well said..

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Originally posted by KING BLING@Mar 30 2006, 04:53 AM

I don't know if anyone here is truly Zionist, or perhaps from Israel or just likes the country because it isn't Muslim but...

 

The US is the most powerful Army, Navy, Air Force and anything else in the world, right?

 

I disagree. The US may have the best Navy. But I think Israel has the best Air Force and arguably the best Army. Not to mention the best Intelligence Agency.

 

Yeh I'm Jewish, Zionist, and Israeli (Living in the US) but what I wrote above, I can back up.

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Originally posted by tsuifuku+Mar 30 2006, 01:01 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tsuifuku - Mar 30 2006, 01:01 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>Probably not the best army, I think israeli forces have seen some significant demoralization due to the fact that they are being used as a police force in the west bank and gaza.

[/b]

 

Originally posted by wiki+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wiki)</div><div class='quotemain'>The IDF is considered to be one of the most high-tech armies in the world, possessing top-of-the-line weapons and computer systems. Besides purchasing American-made weapon systems (such as the M4A1 assault rifle, F-15 Eagle and F-16 Fighting Falcon jets and Apache helicopter), the IDF has several large internal R&D departments.

 

IDF also purchases many technologies produced by the Israeli security industries including IAI, IMI, Elbit, El-Op, Rafael, Soltam and dozens of smaller firms. Many of these developments have been battle-tested in Israel's numerous military engagements, making the relationship mutually beneficial, the IDF getting tailor-made solutions and the industries a very high repute.[/b]

 

They have created the best tanks. I got to see a test run of the newest in Israel. Unbelieveable. They are completely electronic. No gas needed.

 

After they buy them they reoutfit them. The US has a deal with israel that they will give them planes if they share the advancements made on all the planes and helecopter.

 

The Israeli army developed two planes that are far more advanced than anything nowadays due to lack of funds and political issues they were never produced.

 

<!--QuoteBegin-wiki@

Israel's military technology is most famous for its guns, armored fighting vehicles (tanks, tank-converted APCs, armoured bulldozers etc) and rocketry (missiles and rockets). Israel also designs and in some cases manufactures aircraft (Kfir, Lavi) and naval systems (patrol and missile ships, Dolphin class submarine). Much of the IDF's electronic systems (intelligence, communication, command and control, navigation etc.) are Israeli-developed, including many systems installed on foreign platforms (esp. aircraft, tanks and submarines). So are many of its precision-guided munitions.

 

Currently Israel is the only country in the world with an anti-ballistic missile defense system ("Hetz", or Arrow) and working with the USA on development of a tactical high energy laser system against medium range rockets (called Nautilus THEL).

 

Israel has the independent capability of launching reconnaissance satellites into orbit (a capability which only Russia, the United States, the United Kingdom, France, the People's Republic of China, Japan and India hold). Both the satellites (Ofeq) and the launchers (Shavit) were developed by the Israeli security industries.

 

Israel is also said to have developed an indigenous nuclear capability, although no official details or acknowledgements have ever been publicized.

 

 

<!--QuoteBegin-wiki

The code of purity of arms is part of the Israeli Defense Forces official doctrine of ethics. It stipulates that:

 

The IDF servicemen and women will use their weapons and force only for the purpose of their mission, only to the necessary extent and will maintain their humanity even during combat. IDF soldiers will not use their weapons and force to harm human beings who are not combatants or prisoners of war, and will do all in their power to avoid

causing harm to their lives, bodies, dignity and property.

 

I know they follow this to the point. Dispite what others will tell you.

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Tsuifuku-

Venezuela isn’t a completely locked down state like North Korea is, but Chavez has been making steady progress to outlaw any political dissent. The Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International aren’t groups that anyone would call conservative or in the pocket of the US, and they have done a decent job documenting what he has been doing down there. Whether you think Chavez does in fact have the greater good in mind, and the occasional murder/imprisonment of someone who disagrees with him is acceptable is a matter of opinion. But the eroding human rights, and growing inability to dissent there isn’t a matter of opinion, they are facts. I used Stalin as an example because he is very similar to Chavez (anti US propaganda, claiming to want equal wealth distribution) only more extreme. And I think we can all agree South/Latin American women are indeed udd sexy. Brazil might take the lead on that one though.

 

King of Bling-

I was going to write a long, tedious post about how incompetent the UN is at preventing massacres and the US’s large military is required often, like at Srebenica when they literally handed over a refugee camp to be killed, but what’s the point. We go to shitty places in the world to help (or steal their natural resources, depending on your politics), and there is usually a tremendous backlash and we are labeled the world police, imperialists, blah blah. Then, when our help is really needed, we don’t go because we don’t want the same backlash, and the same self righteous assholes protesting the previous US actions are complaining that we never go and help out when its needed. Case and point: Somalia, and a year later the Rwandan genocide. Or Vietnam, and the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia. Those were some nice communists.

 

The aggressor label is appropriate, to a certain extent, but remember the people you are defending to have weapons could also be labeled as such. Venezuela interferes with politics in South America frequently, their agressive treatment of domestic "problems" aside. Their good friend Fidel had to be talked out of starting a nuclear holocaust, by the Russians, back during the Cuban missile crisis...not to mention what he’s done since. Venezuela’s close ally Iran has been behind a lot airline hijackings and explosions, genocide in Lebanon, the US embassy and USMC barracks bombings, suicide bombings and kidnappings since the late 70’s through their Revolutionary Guard. Most recently the Iranian-Shiite militias who have been responsible for a large chunk of the 1,000 plus Sunni civilians who have been kidnapped, tortured, and executed in the past weeks. It might be hypocritical for us to tell Iran not to build a weapon we have 5,000 of (probably more), but we haven’t used any of those since WWII on an enemy. I’d personally rather not find out how often Iran wants to use them.

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Originally posted by CALIgula+Mar 30 2006, 05:14 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CALIgula - Mar 30 2006, 05:14 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-KING BLING@Mar 30 2006, 01:09 AM

I fit this mold but let me give it a more logical basis. First and foremost I beleive the US should cut the military budget, not just outright but in a course of peaceful actions and global community embracing policies. So with my hope that we stop being a war machine, since this won't happen, I respect other countries desire to protect themselves from the US and the CIA and other aggressors. I think its condescending to other countries that our corporate elite government and red state hill billy dumb shit government would tell them not to build weapons we have 5,000 of already. If we don't like it, we shouldn't just tell them not to! I don't want anyone building weapons, but I also don't like bullies acting only in their own interest...

 

 

WOW....I AGREE WITH THIS 110% .....we need to cut our defense spending....all the money we spent on defense didnt really do anything for us as far as 9/11......the money we cut from defense should go to EDUCATION..

 

CIA.....is bullshit.....they infiltrate other countries and try to "fuck up" their governments..

 

and lastly i agree with this statement:

 

"I don't want anyone building weapons, but I also don't like bullies acting only in their own interest..."

 

 

well said..

[/b]

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The main government in Iran came to be through british and russian interests that formalized after WWI. The US also began to bid on Oil speculation contracts wich included development projects like railroads and outposts. The head of there government, the Shah, was an authoritarian leader whos position was supported by European intersts with whome he signed an exploitive concession contract that returned a minimal portion of the profits going back into the state.

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Originally posted by MAR@Mar 31 2006, 09:53 AM

Go learn so history i can tell by the way you are talking you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

And I can tell from the way you talk that you're a Jew that refuses to accept reality. You sound like the southern redneck with the yellow ribon on his pickup truck that honestly believes that America is free and we're in Iraq and Afganistan to liberate them. Only you're the Jewish version.

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Originally posted by BAN-THIS!!!@Mar 31 2006, 09:34 PM

And I can tell from the way you talk that you're a Jew

 

Yeah man. Shit turned sour real quick when the palestinians decided they wern't going to just bend over and accept a Jewish invasion. Poor Jews. grlaugh.gif

 

There was no "two state" solution when the Jews first invaded Palestine

 

Reading the mein kampf much? You really are incredibly stupid.

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