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Soup

Crossfire booklist

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I saw us throwing out a few good books lately so I thought I'd thread this one into its own. You can rename books if you've got something else to say about it. This might become a test to see if we're all getting our information from different sources or not.

 

-See No Evil By Robert Baer

The book goes from CIA recruitment, to the Farm and CIA training, to Field agents, pitching sources, CIA buocracy, the effect washington has on intelligence, and follows Baer as he romps around India, Libia, Syria, Soviet non-Soviet Russia, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and tons of other shit. It's a real life clancy novel, it's good shit.

 

-Sleeping with the devil by Robert Baer

This book glimpses over the complexities of oil refinement, covers the House of Saud in amazing detail, gives a history of the American-Saudi from the beginning... if See No Evil gets you into trying to understand the middle east this one's a good follow up.

 

-Hatred's Kingdom: How Saudi Arabia Supports the New Global Terrorism by Dore Gold.

A little long and tedius to read compared to Bob Baer, but as far as what it says about Wahhabism, it's accurate and informative. This book covers a LOT of history and I get the feeling the writer's English, but it's not too subjective.

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great idea!

 

 

I'll add some books later and possibly covers too, but I'm watching football for the next few hours etc etc...

 

 

but sadly I can't read as much as I would like nowadays... my new client just gave me a 500 page EIS to review, along with another 2000 pages of material...

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one of the most insightful books i've ever read, which i would recommend to anyone, is by an australian guy named alex carey..he wrote a book called 'taking the risk out of democracy', and it's pretty stellar. an original.

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1567510523.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

 

If you flip over the rock of American foreign

policy of the past century, this is what crawls out ...

 

invasions ... bombings ... overthrowing governments ... suppressing movements for social change ... assassinating political leaders ... perverting elections ... manipulating labor unions...

manufacturing "news" ... death squads ... torture ... biological warfare ... depleted uranium ... drug trafficking ... mercenaries ...

 

It's not a pretty picture.

It is enough to give imperialism a bad name.

 

Read the full details in:

 

Killing Hope: US Military and CIA

Interventions Since World War II.

 

 

chapters available on the web so you can read it free..

http://members.aol.com/bblum6/American_holocaust.htm

(rotates chapters every so often

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soup, you have to check out this site about wahhabism.

 

 

http://thewahhabimyth.com/

 

 

Do 'Wahhabis' Support Acts of Terrorism?

"...Hijacking airplanes and kidnapping children and the like are extremely great crimes, the world over. Their evil effects are far and wide, as is the great harm and inconvenience caused to the innocent..."

 

- Shaykh Abdul-Aziz Bin Baz, Saudi Arabia

 

The late Shaykh Abdul-Aziz Bin Baz, the former Mufti (verdict giver) of Saudi Arabia, made the following comment about acts of terrorism: "From that which is known to anyone who has the slightest bit of common sense, is that hijacking airplanes and kidnapping children and the like are extremely great crimes, the world over. Their evil effects are far and wide, as is the great harm and inconvenience caused to the innocent; the total effect of which none can comprehend except Allah.

 

Likewise, from that which is known is that these crimes are not specific to any particular country over and above another country, nor any specific group over and above another group; rather, it encompasses the whole world.

 

There is no doubt about the effect of these crimes; so it is obligatory upon the governments and those responsible from amongst the scholars and others to afford these issues great concern, and to exert themselves as much as possible in ending this evil."

 

In specific reference to the Egyptian Qutbist group which eventually saw some of its members become associated with al-Qaeda, Shaykh Abdul-Aziz Bin Baz was asked, "What is the verdict concerning Jamaa'atul-Jihaad (The Jihad Party of Egypt) and co-operation with them?"

 

He answered, "...They are not to be co-operated with, nor are they to be given salutations (salaam). Rather, they are to be cut off from, and the people are to be warned against their evil, since they are a tribulation and are harmful to the Muslims, and they are the brothers of the Devil."

 

In his book al-Irhaab (Terrorism), Shaykh Zayd al-Madkhali spoke about the iniquity of those who spread corruption in the earth: "And certainly, I say without doubt, that these kinds of people, May Allah guide them, divert people from the path of truth in the way they act towards people. And no one is safe from their evil in their lands, except those who are a part of their party of which destroys, and does not build, corrupts much, and does not rectify."

 

- abridged from the book: The 'Wahhabi' Myth

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What people say about "Hatred's Kingdom"

 

"If you read one book to understand the roots of al-Qaeda's fury and the hostility to us within the Mulsim world, it should be this - Dore Gold's superbly told the history of the Wahhabi's."

(R. James Woolsey, former director of the CIA)

 

Who should we believe, Woolsey, or a website saying "It's just not true."

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Originally posted by BURLAP@Jan 25 2006, 04:57 AM

personally i think woolsey's a scumbag.

Burlap I think you need to get off your soap box for a second and think before you speak. John Stuart had Woolsey on the daily show, he's a good man and as "CIA director" suggests, he's an intelligence expert.

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uh.......

the operative word was 'personally', as in it's MY opinion. i'm sorry

you disagree.

ps-you sound chaffed...i hear vaseline works great.

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Originally posted by BURLAP@Jan 25 2006, 07:43 AM

uh.......

the operative word was 'personally', as in it's MY opinion. i'm sorry

you disagree.

ps-you sound chaffed...i hear vaseline works great.

That's not an opinion. That's not even a completed thought. How bout "why" you think Woolsey is a scumbag? If you can't answer that then you have what anyone else would call "indifference."

 

Wahhabi fundementalism, or what the West calls islamism, is a deviation of islam taught in Modenia University in Saudi Arabia, Sponsored by the Saudi Government, and exported from there.

 

I wanted to also say that you seem to think my gripe with Wahhabism is with Osama Bin Laden. If you try to defend wahhabism to me you'll poorly loose, since Wahhibism is a movement that distinctly follows the trends of anti-semitism in Islamic history. Osama is a product of wahhibism but isn't a good example since Osama has always been quoted as indifferent to Muslim struggle in Palestine, exiled out of Saudi Arabia, and exiled out of his family. He's simply living in a cave grinding an axe and making "I hate the US" mix tapes in his spare time.

 

The real problem is Wahhabism theology (as well with other militant islamic trends) spawned not only the Al Qaeda, but Hamas, the Taliban, the Islamic Salvation Front, Saddam, and gangs in Chechnya and Dagistan.

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Scott Adams - The Religion War

 

It's written by the creator of Dilbert, which is reason enough to read it

 

But, there's more! The plot is extremely thin, but that's not the point. It's full of interesting insight and extremely thought-provoking ideas about religion, especially with regard to the Islam-Christianity conflict on at the moment

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Originally posted by Soup@Jan 25 2006, 04:00 AM

What people say about "Hatred's Kingdom"

 

"If you read one book to understand the roots of al-Qaeda's fury and the hostility to us within the Mulsim world, it should be this - Dore Gold's superbly told the history of the Wahhabi's."

(R. James Woolsey, former director of the CIA)

 

Who should we believe, Woolsey, or a website saying "It's just not true."

 

 

who should you beleive about Islam, the muslims or the non muslims. Thats like going to a ford dealership to buy a chevy.

At the chevy dealership youre only going to get a preowned ford that was abused by somebody else, cleaned up, and sold to you after it was already beat up.

If you want to know about the quality of Nike sneakers, do you go to Reebok and ask them?

Iv'e never read Woolsey's book and I don't know what It implies. But , if you read the book "wahhabi Myth" I'm sure you'll get a better understanding of this issue from an objectivity standpoint.

It is very possible that Woolsey's book is accurate (like I said , I never read it.) And It may be possible that Woolsey's book is full of fabrications and more false justification to Bomb the hell out of innocent people. I won't know until I read it. But, don't knock the wahhabi myth until you read it.

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Originally posted by Soup@Jan 25 2006, 05:07 AM

[burlap I think you need to get off your soap box for a second and think before you speak.  John Stuart had Woolsey on the daily show, he's a good man!!!!!!!! and as "CIA director" suggests, he's an intelligence expert.

 

 

since when did graffiti writing criminal types defend the CIA?

:five-o: ??

is it you Woolsey?

 

And I love all the non muslim Islamic theologans who never heard of a "wahhabi" or "Islam" or "Osama Ibn Laden" before 911 and are now experts on what Islam is and what is a deviation from Islam.

 

Oh, and Soup, It's not Modenia University , it Medina University and , do you personally know any graduates from Medina University?

I know many. i have some close associates who have graduated from Medina U and they weren't Al Qaidaized at all. As a matter of fact, the official position of the Saudi govt. is against terrorism, I don't say this because I care what you think about the Saudi Govt.. I don't, I don't work for the saudi govt. but, I'm a muslim, who lives and breathes Islam every day. From The scholars to the the rulers of Saudi , they all preach against terrorism.

check here

http://www.fatwaonline.com

and here is the curriculum of the medina university. Tell me if you find any terrorism there.

http://www.mediu.org.

 

My point in all of this is, If someone is a terrorist, then most likely, they won't try to hide it. Al Qaida doesn't hide it. And if you look to Al Qaida, they hate the saudi govt. because they feel that the saudis suck up to America too much.

And if you want to talk about being in bed with the terrorists, what about the CIA? weren't they funding Al qaida during the reagan-clinton Administrations when they were fighting the russians? Oh, but , then they were freedom fighters. Where do you think these "insurgents" as you call them got their rocket launchers?

At the pakastani Goat farm?

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um, no, that's my opinion, so step off with the semantics, please&thanks.

and once again, i'm sorry i pissed on somebody you hold in high esteem.

right now i don't have much time to write up a big reply; deal with it, it's not

a prerequisite to crossfire.

as for you addressing me about what you seem to think i think about you...

sorry, i have no fucking clue what your ranting on about.

i think i've read like 2 or 3 of your posts, MAX. i could care less. chill.

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Guest Sparoism

"Killing Hope" is good stuff...I'll post some books later.

 

Believe it or not, a lot of what the conservatives (NOT the ones in charge, mind you) have written in the past few years regarding Bush's so-called economic policies has been dead-on point.

 

We are setting ourselves up for an even bigger defeat if the trade deficit with China is allowed to grow unchecked. Think about that.

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Dawood, I have a few comments and didn't feel like making two posts so one of these is from another thread.

 

"As for seperating Islam from Muslim countries and politics, Yes, definately."

Are you sure your a practicing Muslim? A major point of Islam is to live by Sharia, and all those who don't follow are infidels, must pay a tax or die, blah blah. I'm sure you have a copy of the good book. And I absolutely agree but it will never ever happen in a predominantly Muslim country. Thats why the Iraq and Afghanistan constitutions follow Islamic law above all else. Good thing the freedom(foreign) fighters are there to massacre innocent Shiites though, right? That'll show the US.

 

"As a matter of fact, the official position of the Saudi govt. is against terrorism, I don't say this because I care what you think about the Saudi Govt.. I don't, I don't work for the saudi govt. but, I'm a muslim, who lives and breathes Islam every day. From The scholars to the the rulers of Saudi , they all preach against terrorism."

Yes, with OFFICIAL being the key word there. They don't want to anger their number one business partners directly. The fatwa link you posted and the Saudis publicly condemning terrorism is all an act to try to pacify our government. Very superficial, but I guess easy to believe if you want too. Why do you think Osama bin Laden blew up part of their country and tried to rally opposition against the Saudis, and they only tossed him out instead of killing him like they would anyone else? Why do you think the Saudi royal family are some of the major contributors to terrorist organizations? Why do you think 15 of the 9-11 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia?

 

I mean this in the most politest and non-confrontational way, please pull your head out of your ass. The perspective is alot nicer out here.

 

EDIT- Sorry, trying to stay on topic here-

0060544244.jpg

Excellent book. Some of the highlights include Bill 'nailing' people left and right, and at one point himself. Chapter five's guidelines on how NOT to make an extremely explicit pass on your producer was also educational and informational.

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everyone should read these books....

 

 

Wealth of Nations - Adam Smith

More Guns Less Crime - John Lott

Where the Right Went Wrong - Patrick J Buchanan

The Road To Serfdom - Frederick Hayek

The South Was Right- Kennedy

Death Of the West - Patrick J Buchanan

Liberty and Freedom - David Hackett Fischer

The Federalist Papers - Hamilton, Madison, Jay

The Anti Federalist Papers

and last but not least...

The Politically Incorrect Guide to American History By Thomas Woods.

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Originally posted by Stereotype V.001@Jan 25 2006, 08:57 PM

Dawood, I have a few comments and didn't feel like making two posts so one of these is from another thread.

 

Are you sure your a practicing Muslim? A major point of Islam is to live by Sharia, and all those who don't follow are infidels, must pay a tax or die, blah blah. I'm sure you have a copy of the good book.

 

Yes, with OFFICIAL being the key word there. They don't want to anger their number one business partners directly. The fatwa link you posted and the Saudis publicly condemning terrorism is all an act to try to pacify our government. Very superficial, but I guess easy to believe if you want too. Why do you think Osama bin Laden blew up part of their country and tried to rally opposition against the Saudis, and they only tossed him out instead of killing him like they would anyone else? Why do you think the Saudi royal family are some of the major contributors to terrorist organizations? Why do you think 15 of the 9-11 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia?

 

I mean this in the most politest and non-confrontational way, please pull your head out of your ass. The perspective is alot nicer out here.

 

 

 

Ok, first off, When I mentioned seperating politics from Islam, I didn't mean it the way you understood it. I do beleive in the sharia, and I beleive it is the best law and the only law legislated for mankind. What I meant with my statement was that politics in muslim countries today is not a representation of the sharia (Islamic Law).

And when looked at, the person should distinguish between what Islam is, and what the muslims do in their countries, because they're not the same.

second: the Bombings in Riyadh happened on May 12, 2003. but In 1994 Saudi Arabia stripped bin Laden's citizenship, citing his

opposition to the Saudi King and leadership and expelled him from the country. So your claim ...

"Why do you think Osama bin Laden blew up part of their country and tried to rally opposition against the Saudis, and they only tossed him out instead of killing him like they would anyone else?"

 

This can be answered by saying that # 1 they didnt throw him out for blowing things up, they threw him out for mouthing off against the king. And # 2 he got kicked out in 1994 and the bombings happened in 2003 so how would they have the opportunity to kill him while he's masquerading around the planet being public enemy #1 ?

 

So, If youre saying that the Saudia Arabia govt. is funding and supporting terrorist ideas, then you must be implying that there are 2 faces to the Saudi govt. The face that sucks up to the US govt. and produces anti terrorist literature, sets up anti terrorism websites, catches and arrests terrorists, and calls to non extremism in religion.

 

Then there's the face that funds and supports terrorism, kills innocent people, calls to extremism, blows things up etc.

 

sounds like a soap opera to me,

this is why I hate politricks.

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and , trying to stay on topic.

 

b01568.jpg

 

 

Sacred Freedom contains a concise and frank examination of the legitimacy of atheism, humanism, pluralism, democracy and secularism as guiding ideologies for humankind. Discussing the consequences of a pluralistic worldview, Sacred Freedom questions whether the West has examined the realities of democracy before endeavoring to spread it by force around the world.

 

Are ideologies derived from Western historical experiences universally applicable? Has the West arrived at a balanced understanding of personal freedom? These are only some of the important questions raised in this unique book. Daring to probe the revered and unquestionable, Sacred Freedom gives readers the opportunity to explore these topics from a viewpoint they might otherwise not be exposed to.

 

http://www.bookmasters.com/marktplc/01568.htm

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Originally posted by Dawood+Jan 25 2006, 10:12 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dawood - Jan 25 2006, 10:12 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> second: the Bombings in Riyadh happened on May 12, 2003. but In 1994 Saudi Arabia stripped bin Laden's citizenship, citing his

opposition to the Saudi King and leadership and expelled him from the country. So your claim ...

"Why do you think Osama bin Laden blew up part of their country and tried to rally opposition against the Saudis, and they only tossed him out instead of killing him like they would anyone else?"

 

This can be answered by saying that # 1 they didnt throw him out for blowing things up, they threw him out for mouthing off against the king. And # 2 he got kicked out in 1994 and the bombings happened in 2003 so how would they have the opportunity to kill him while he's masquerading around the planet being public enemy #1 ?

[/b]

 

No, bin Laden got asked politely to leave in 1994 and didn't until a little later when he headed to Sudan. And the 2003 bombings were the only ones to take place by Al Queda in Saudi Arabia? Are you sure? There have been many other acts of less public aggression by bin Laden in the country too. And you even conceded he spoke out against the king, any other person who would have done the same would have been executed, not just thrown out. There is NO dissent in your idyllic Islamic countries (like how you frequently criticize the US government, you do that under the same rules as Saudi Arabia and you are the main event on chop chop friday).

 

<!--QuoteBegin-Dawood@Jan 25 2006, 10:12 PM

So, If youre saying that the Saudia Arabia govt. is funding and supporting terrorist ideas, then you must be implying that there are 2 faces to the Saudi govt. The face that sucks up to the US govt. and produces anti terrorist literature, sets up anti terrorism websites, catches and arrests terrorists, and calls to non extremism in religion.

 

Then there's the face that funds and supports terrorism, kills innocent people, calls to extremism, blows things up etc.

 

sounds like a soap opera to me,

this is why I hate politricks.

Yes. I didn't imply that, I blatantly said it.

Hamas HQ in sunny Saudi Arabia.

Saudi Arabia has ties with AQ? Thats crazy talk man! They be good Muslims!

Saudis expanding terrorist operations.

Saudi princes being sued by 9-11 victim's families because they funded Al Queda? What would get that crazy thought in there little infidel minds!

All the good muslims push coke.

 

Do you need anymore? The Saudis make meaningless statements that are directed to the west more than anyone else condemning terrorism, and facilitate it more than anyone else at the same time. They fund it, they run schools that push the ideology, they arrest one or two low level terrorists to appease the US gov, the list goes on and on. I'm gonna go out on a limb here, but I think you hate "politricks" because you don't like anything that interferes with your narrow view of the world than people trying to trick you. Have a great day haji.

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sports crew boooooooooooooooooooooooooyy. WHATS UP???? taking lunch $$$

 

 

 

btw soup, john stuart is not a name... Jon Stewart is....

 

 

 

0446532681.01._PE64_.The-Daily-Show-with-Jon-Stewart-Presents-America-The-Book-A-Citizens-Guide-to-Democracy-Inaction._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

 

 

 

btw Dawood, you mention whether its better to ask a muslim or non-muslim about islam. I would say the non-muslim because they would be more objective...which is why I have a difficult time reading some of that propganda you post sometimes... oh well

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the funny thing about the internet is you can find dirt on everyone. Just google them, you'll find something. Whether it's a reliable source, true or not, It's there. I'm not saying that everything you posted is wrong. It could be all true, and I'm sure you could find more dirt if you googled harder. What was the point of this discussion? Oh yeah, you said I am a Saudi Arabia apolagist , well, I have no comment on what you posted because I don't have the ability to confirm it or disprove it, and In all honesty I don't give a rat's @*$!!

(good muslims don't swear)

 

anyway, I googled you and found a picture of you and your buddies at a party

 

C1.gif

 

nice band, man, i didnt know you were so talented.

My Webpage

 

stereotype got them duds , man

 

and I didn't know you were so stylish.

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