Dawood Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Originally posted by El Mamerro+Nov 10 2005, 02:36 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (El Mamerro - Nov 10 2005, 02:36 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Dawood@Nov 10 2005, 12:31 AM you need proof? How about your eyes and your ears and your heart and lungs. What about the perfect atmosphere to harbor life , i.e: EARTH. The planet that , if it were to be a mile closer to the sun we would burn to death , or a mile further away we would freeze? What about photosynthesis and gravity? How about the fact that you are breathing RIGHT NOW! Don't you give thanks?? How ungrateful can you be to not even acknowledge the creator, when he placed within your soul a natural inclination toward him? The same way the tree grows toward the sun. have you ever noticed the way a tall tree grows straight upward toward it's source of nourishment ? The sun? And how the tree that's blocked by bigger trees and doesnt receive sunlight grows hunched over and twisted , like swamp trees? Well, thats the metaphor of a beleiver , who receives and accepts guidance , he grows straight, Upright , tall and strong, while the one who is blocked from guidance grows to be twisted and hunched over, weak. The proof is all around you Rumpuncher, the proof is everything, thats the irony, LOL , youre looking for proof, but the proof is everything. Amazing. Quoted post Sounds like evolution to me. Quoted post [/b] Call it what you want , the truth is the truth. The popular idea is that religion and science oppose one another. It's not like that in Islam, just in christianity. I was raised a "christian"<-----note the quotes. The main reason why so many people are turning away from christianity as a beleif system is that the christian beleif doesn't jive right with scientific findings. Again, it's just not like that with Islam. The way I see it, the more scientists discover about the universe , the more it brings to light the greatness of the creator and the intricacies of his creation. Not to say that all scientific theories are correct, but the majority of what I read on science coincides with Islamic beleifs. (except the monkey theory of course and a few others like E=Mc2) I beleive in evolution, but I don't think things evolved haphazardly by chance. I beleive that these things that scientists discovered are all part of a grand plan, a design , if you will. That doesn't sound odd does it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yum Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Islam sounds so great , youd get shut down in every generalised argumetn you make if anyone could be bothered to make an intelligent reply to your shit dawood Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_El Mamerro Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Originally posted by Dawood@Nov 10 2005, 10:02 AM Call it what you want , the truth is the truth. The popular idea is that religion and science oppose one another. It's not like that in Islam, just in christianity. Quoted post We've been through this before, and I even linked you to an article about the Vatican's astrophysicist explaining otherwise. I'm not gonna go through it again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_dowmagik Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 dawood, you say "the truth is the truth", but having faith in something, no matter how strong, does not make it truth. its still a personal belief, nothing more. are you even capable of admitting that there is a possibility that the quran is incorrect and you wont be chillin with virgins in the afterlife? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!@#$% Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 haphazardly? nothing about evolution was haphazard, part of the reason it's so ridiculous to refute it. we are talking MILLIONS of years here. if the life of the planet was compressed into one day humans would only have come on the scene a few SECONDS before midnight of that day. ..... A Brief History of Life Go to a Brief History of Life Flash required A Brief History of Life by Lexi Krock For most of us, the Pyramids symbolize the distant past. After all, they're more than 4,500 years old. But for geologists and paleontologists, they might as well have been built yesterday. That's because these biographers of the primordial deal in increments of millions and even billions of years as they struggle to reconstruct our planet's life history, which is so vast that those 4,500 years would have to be replicated a million times over to reach back to Earth's beginnings 4.5 billion years ago. Looked at another way, if one were to measure our planet's age as a single 24-hour day, the first human civilizations would appear less than a second before midnight. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/link/history.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_dowmagik Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 symbols, it would be less than that, would it not? one second compared to a day is 1/86400 - and weve only been around a few thousand years, compared to millions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!@#$% Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 "the first human civilizations would appear less than a second before midnight." according to NOVA, so yeah. less than one second. hahahhaa and they call it haphazard. there is no limit to human egocentricism and stupidity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumPuncher Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Originally posted by Dawood+Nov 10 2005, 01:31 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dawood - Nov 10 2005, 01:31 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-RumPuncher@Nov 9 2005, 08:12 PM If someone came up with a The very nature of faith is that you believe without proof. With proof, there's no need to have faith. It's tricky that way. Quoted post The proof is all around you Rumpuncher, the proof is everything, thats the irony, LOL , youre looking for proof, but the proof is everything. Amazing. Quoted post [/b] dude.... my post was just to show the absurdity of fighting 'belief' in the US court system. I wasn't trying to get you started, belive me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theGOON Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 dawood--you know islam very well and its nice that you can find something to give you identity and hope, but saying 'truth is truth' is just ridiculous. claiming/calling for absolute truth is absurd, EVERYTHING is relative. find YOUR truth in islam, i find MY truth in atheism and science. accept others' point of views, not as truth per se, but as valid. i'm assuming that by your "raised'christian'" comment you at one point set out searching w/ an open mind for something new, you've apparently lost that mindset. you do seem like an incredibly well read, intelligent individual, but you're downright fucking annoying when you claim to have the be all/end all. good thread other than that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. Lecter Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Sorry to take peoples sentences out of context, but I must comment on a few things said.. By no means discrediting the complete point of thier/your complete post... Originally posted by Dawood+Nov 10 2005, 09:09 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dawood - Nov 10 2005, 09:09 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>yum, I'm not trying to convert anyone, Islam will grow with or without you. It's the fastest growing way of life in the world. Quoted post [/b] Unfourtunately, Materialism is the fastest growing way of life in the world.. ---- <!--QuoteBegin-saraday@Nov 10 2005, 09:31 AM ...it's disrespectful to the people who devoted their lives to science in order to make this world better.... Quoted post Who is to say that science has truely made the world better..?? We are all living far beyond our means in nearly every respect.. To say that science has bettered this world as a whole is a completely self-centered comment on behalf of mankind.. I believe that science will be the end of this world.. It is the third link or third player in the completion of the 3 cycle/ 3 spiral/ 3 "6" formula.. Nature makes man, man destroys nature, Man makes science/a.i., Science/a.i. destroys man.. and so the story goes... --- While we're linking to PBS broadcasts/specials... The Journey Of Man : A Genetic Oddessey Extremely influential and relative to our topic.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!@#$% Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 so as science makes fuel from corn and turns trash into energy, you can go on with that ridiculous postulation that science is destroying the world. technology is rife with problems, as is science but they are hardly orchestrating our demise. let's not forget that it is the mind of man that drives science no theory, hypothesis, or abstract idea, like 'science' could go out and wreak havoc man does whatever, action, reaction, cause, and effect some animals play a role and nature has final say i don't see science as an entity since so many people of so many diverse goals and ideas participate in its makeup to limit 'science' to artificial intelligence is really narrow minded also. if you think A.I. is the ultimate in bad science, don't forget all the good shit too. you've probably had vaccines, drank pasteurized milk, and possibly learned something about how to fuck your girl without getting her pregnant right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KING BLING Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...5110900114.html Pennsylvania Voters Oust School Board By Martha Raffaele / Associated Press DOVER, Pa. -- Voters came down hard Tuesday on school board members who backed a statement on intelligent design being read in biology class, ousting eight Republicans and replacing them with Democrats who want the concept stripped from the science curriculum. The election unfolded amid a landmark federal trial involving the Dover public schools and the question of whether intelligent design promotes the Bible's view of creation. Eight Dover families sued, saying it violates the constitutional separation of church and state. Dover's school board adopted a policy in October 2004 that requires ninth-graders to hear a prepared statement about intelligent design before learning about evolution in biology class. Eight of the nine school board members were up for election Tuesday. They were challenged by a slate of Democrats who argued that science class was not the appropriate forum for teaching intelligent design. "My kids believe in God. I believe in God. But I don't think it belongs in the science curriculum the way the school district is presenting it," said Jill Reiter, 41, a bank teller who joined a group of high school students waving signs supporting the challengers Tuesday. A spokesman for the winning slate of candidates has said they wouldn't act hastily and would consider the outcome of the court case. The judge expects to rule by January; the new school board members will be sworn in Dec. 5. School board member David Napierskie, who lost Tuesday, said the vote wasn't just about ideology. "Some people felt intelligent design shouldn't be taught and others were concerned about having tax money spent on the lawsuit," he said. Intelligent design holds that the universe is so complex that it must have been created by some kind of higher force. The statement read to students says Charles Darwin's theory is "not a fact" and has inexplicable "gaps." A similar controversy has erupted in Kansas, where the state Board of Education on Tuesday approved science standards for public schools that cast doubt on the theory of evolution. The 6-4 vote was a victory for intelligent design advocates who helped draft the standards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!@#$% Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 Nov. 11, 2005, 9:23AM 'Intelligent design' vote has Robertson warning town Reuters News Service WASHINGTON - Conservative Christian televangelist Pat Robertson told citizens of a Pennsylvania town that they had rejected God by voting their school board out of office for supporting "intelligent design" and warned them Thursday not to be surprised if disaster struck. Robertson, a former Republican presidential candidate and founder of the influential conservative Christian Broadcasting Network and Christian Coalition, has a long record of similar apocalyptic warnings and provocative statements. Last summer, he called for the assassination of leftist Venezuelan Present Hugo Chavez, one of President Bush's most vocal international critics. "I'd like to say to the good citizens of Dover: If there is a disaster in your area, don't turn to God, you just rejected Him from your city," Robertson said on his daily television show broadcast from Virginia, The 700 Club. "And don't wonder why He hasn't helped you when problems begin, if they begin. I'm not saying they will, but if they do, just remember, you just voted God out of your city," he said. The 700 Club claims a daily audience of around 1 million. http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/3453706 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Birch Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 While we're linking to PBS broadcasts/specials... The Journey Of Man : A Genetic Oddessey Extremely influential and relative to our topic.. Great documentary and even greater book. Spencer Wells. One of the first great books of the 21st century. Everyone should read it... The ironic thing is that, that book about that religion called "science" demonstrates the solidarity and brotherhood of man better than any religion ever could. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saraday Posted November 12, 2005 Author Share Posted November 12, 2005 Originally posted by symbols@Nov 10 2005, 03:58 PM so as science makes fuel from corn and turns trash into energy, you can go on with that ridiculous postulation that science is destroying the world. technology is rife with problems, as is science but they are hardly orchestrating our demise. let's not forget that it is the mind of man that drives science no theory, hypothesis, or abstract idea, like 'science' could go out and wreak havoc man does whatever, action, reaction, cause, and effect some animals play a role and nature has final say i don't see science as an entity since so many people of so many diverse goals and ideas participate in its makeup to limit 'science' to artificial intelligence is really narrow minded also. if you think A.I. is the ultimate in bad science, don't forget all the good shit too. you've probably had vaccines, drank pasteurized milk, and possibly learned something about how to fuck your girl without getting her pregnant right? Quoted post thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knuckle_game Posted November 13, 2005 Share Posted November 13, 2005 "but science is itself a religion.. the religion of physics and samsara.. but other conventional religions actually depth into the meta-physical; which supersedes all that is tangible.." Wow that's deep..... Now pass whatever it is you smoking on this way :krunk: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krakatau Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 I think that creationism should be taught in schools, just not in science class. Adding a world relgions class isn't a bad idea given the broad range of people that live in the US. Ignorance and misunderstanding are at the roots of most conflicts, so hopefully education could allieviate stresses. It could provide a sort of skeletonized over view of world religions (too many details when you try to break down into sub-sects), highlighting both similarities and differences in the largest world religions. Or if they spiced up intelligent design with space aliens or something. That'd be cool, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 It seems like in an enviroment like America, To teach world religions in class, How would one be sure that the teacher wasn't propagating his faith over others by putting a twist on it? This will be an ongoing argument between you "seperate church from staters" forever. Personally, I feel If a person beleives in his religion enough, then he or she will cough up that tuition money and send their kids to a private school that coincides with their beleif and if they can't do that, then they can homeschool, end of argument Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yum Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 Originally posted by Dawood@Nov 14 2005, 02:02 PM Personally, I feel If a person beleives in his religion enough, then he or she will cough up that tuition money and send their kids to a private school that coincides with their beleif and if they can't do that, then they can homeschool, end of argument Quoted post what do you know i agree with dawood Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krakatau Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 Devil's in the details, huh? I agree, it would be a sticky situation to handle, but I think that it would be very beneficial given proper organization. Perhaps a special liscensing process to teach that class would be required or something. I dunno, maybe that is why there isn't one. Money doesn't spring from faith- I think lots of the people who support creationism being taught in schools are unable to afford private schools. I would also imagine homeschooling can be just as expensive as some private schools, not to mention the investment parents have to make in the form time. I doubt that would really be a feasible option for your run of the mill American. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yum Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 by hoem schoolind i htink he means jsut that if the parents are so set on their kids learning aobut their own religion they should take the itme to try to brainwash the kids themselves instead of expectign the public school system to do so Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krakatau Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 Originally posted by yum@Nov 13 2005, 09:22 PM by hoem schoolind i htink he means jsut that if the parents are so set on their kids learning aobut their own religion they should take the itme to try to brainwash the kids themselves instead of expectign the public school system to do so Quoted post Yeah, you are right. Public schools obviously have their hands full just trying to get kids spelling abilities up to par. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 Originally posted by Krakatau+Nov 14 2005, 03:26 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Krakatau - Nov 14 2005, 03:26 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-yum@Nov 13 2005, 09:22 PM by hoem schoolind i htink he means jsut that if the parents are so set on their kids learning aobut their own religion they should take the itme to try to brainwash the kids themselves instead of expectign the public school system to do so Quoted post Yeah, you are right. Public schools obviously have their hands full just trying to get kids spelling abilities up to par. Quoted post [/b] Exactly, I can't send my kids around a bunch of "dirty brainers" and expect their brains to come clean now can I ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saraday Posted November 14, 2005 Author Share Posted November 14, 2005 not that it would ever happen.. but it would take an act of god (no pun intended) to find people educated enough to teach world religion in public schools. to find someone who could teach different religions objectively would be very hard to do. that's why church and state are seperated and ones who wish to learn religion do so in private schools, which (as usual) drives a wedge between the rich and the poor. bla bla, the whole system is a clusterfuck.. i could go on for days but i'd rather just watch you guys bicker back and forth :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krakatau Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 Originally posted by saraday@Nov 14 2005, 01:22 AM not that it would ever happen.. but it would take an act of god (no pun intended) to find people educated enough to teach world religion in public schools. to find someone who could teach different religions objectively would be very hard to do. that's why church and state are seperated and ones who wish to learn religion do so in private schools. bla bla, the whole system is a clusterfuck.. i could go on for days but i'd rather just watch you guys bicker back and forth :) Quoted post Clusterfuck is a good term for it. I agree, staffing the world religions class would be virtually impossible... but I would still like to see a class that explains why you are just as silly wearing a cross on your neck as the guy next to you with his turban. And that is really the purpose of the class as I envision it. By highlighting the absurbities of other religions in parallel to one another I think that it would help kids find fault in their own dogmas. But you sell it as 'a promotion of understanding and cross cultural tolerance'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saraday Posted November 14, 2005 Author Share Posted November 14, 2005 that'd be awesome in a perfect world. unfortunately, this world is very flawed. people are shallow and don't want to learn about anything else besides what they believe because they have too much pride and fear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
At_the_Boyles Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 this is the kind of shit that happens when you let religious retards run an education system... public education is provided by the government... government and religion are seperate as declared by the constitution... therfore if you want to learn religious shit got to your place of worship or go to a private school... religion should never be allowed in school... prays should never be lead, relgious texts and ideas should never be taught in a public school ever... its is ethiclly wrong.. i wonder who some chirstian bitch would feel if i was there son or daughters 10th grade science teacher and started preaching satanism to them every day... dont think they would liek that very much and being uneducated like they are they would deem that satanism is an imoral religion just liek all other religious as deemd before their so called god in their bullshit religious history book. and i deas of relgion should be barred from public schools no matter what religion.. if is relates to history such as in a hisotry course the study of the emregence of religion all relgions shoudl be give equal thought and study but the stressing of accepting one of the religions should be deemed imoral and and no person has the right to push in from of religion on any body.... i dont knwo if this is relevant to what that report was about cuz the link was busted to i couldnt read it... but whatever i dont know if the shit i just makes any since or not.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 Originally posted by Krakatau@Nov 14 2005, 07:31 AM but I would still like to see a class that explains why you are just as silly wearing a cross on your neck as the guy next to you with his turban. Quoted post why is wearing a turban silly? go to Ireland and tell them their kilts are silly. Or go to Mexico and explain to them how silly their straw hats are. Turbans have nothing to do with religion, people wore turbans in that region way before they were muslims. As a matter of fact christians dressed just like muslims back then and pagans and , and and..... It was their culture, their dress code. And the turban was a protection from the sun so people wouldnt fall out from heat exhaustion. Go to the Red Sox dugout and tell them how silly their baseball caps are, you might get knocked out like D-Bo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krakatau Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 Alright. "You look just as silly with your bible as the guy next to you with tht quran." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumPuncher Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 I had a world religions class in my final year of highschool. The teacher was the most respected history teacher in the school, and he never put personal bias on the subject. I understand not everyone is lucky enough to have a teacher like that, but there's always hope. This class was an advanced level social sciences class, so most of the kids in the class were planning on going to University, and cared about being able to have an intelligent discussion. I dont think a class like this would work so well at the general level. The students have to talk to each other, and formulate opinions of their own. There was no way to coast, or copy answers from you peers. And just like too many people forget, it's all open to personal interpretation. I think the final exam gave us a series of essay questions on what makes up the various pillars of faith, as well as the basics of their history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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