Dawood Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 Originally posted by dowmagik@Oct 15 2005, 05:00 PM how on earth can a school "ban prayer"? do these schools have mind readers who zoom in on students whose minds are speaking to their god(s)? sounds like an obsurd claim. if your prayer requires the notice of others, it sounds to me like you're doing it for the wrong reasons. Quoted post different people pray different ways and not everyone simply bows their head and utters a few somethings to God in their mind. Some people pray in congregation with others , some people bow and prostrate themselves before God and which requires a special time to take away for prayer. And I agree, your prayer should not be something that you want others to notice, Ultimately, It is for God, not so that others say, oooh, look how pious he is. It seems to me that in secular schools (like the ones in America) special accomadations should be (and I'm sure in many cases are) made for kids who want to practice their faiths and pray in school as long as it is an established ,unoffensive to others practice. But here, where I live, they definately ban kids from praying unless a parent or representative from the religious establishment comes and makes an issue out of it, then they bend the rules in that case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theillp Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 Dawood: when i mean everything i include matter and energy.. so im sure what ever makes us (primarily those two things which i guess can obiously be divided into so many differnt types of each) does not completly dissapear vanish into oblivion.. might stay around changing form mixing with other "things" as well.. perhaps a 'spiirt' energy livin on if you will but so if thats possible we dont neccesirly need a creator... but i think there is for the 'design' aspect love etc etc for sure divine source but.. not sure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrJackDaniels Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 Originally posted by Dawood@Oct 15 2005, 03:32 PM I'm not touching villians post with a ten foot pole , LOL....... thats some serious work you got there, villian theillp, I don't beleive that everything was always here in different forms because of the simple principle of life and death. Everything has a beginning and an end......Except God. Thats what makes him God, and if God had a "designer" or something that created God, then that thing would be God. The way I see it, everything will die except God. And everything was born or created or sprouted or grew except God. And again, thats what makes him God. If we think that God is bound by the laws of his creation, then we take away some of his Godly qualities, like being capable of all things. And about the time thing, I'm not following your logic on that one. Quoted post so where did god come from? this one question puzzles me.. if everything was designed "intelligently" (im using speech marks cos i find it hard to believe that a god would design people to be stupid) then surely there must be a chain working backwards. who or what designed the designer? etc ive started to really enjoy reading / participating in threads in x-fire! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 this is actually a discussion that is better suited for the nature of the creator thread, so , if we continue this discussion, we should respectfully continue it there, but here goes....for now. The problem with there being no creator is that If I were to tell you that the computer you are typing on was intellegent enough to manufacture itself , turn itself on and have an intellectual conversation with me you would never believe that the parts all came together, wired themselves perfectly to operate effectively all without the help of a human to put it together and design it so that it could work properly, Well the Universe being an "organic computer" of sorts...My question is ..How can you logically explain that with all of the complexity of the universe, it was randomly tossed together and "somehow" happened to all work out intellegent life forms on such a grand scale when we cant even beleive that a simple little wind-up burger king toy was designed all by itself with no intellegent design? It seems to me like something the simplest of minds could decipher, which , to me is another proof that God guides whomever he wills to his truth, What I mean is, you don't have to be an engineer or a rocket scientist to understand and believe in the presence of a divine creator, Some of the worlds most intellegent thinkers are and were beleivers in God , also , there are the simplest and most uneducated individuals who believe unequivocally that God is the greatest. Which leads me to know that it's not necessarily the intellect or how "smart" a person is. The more important issue is whether a persons heart has good intentions or not, because a person can have all of the knowledge in the universe, but if his intentions are bad, his actions will be bad and he will be misguided and distracted from the truth because his bad intention will lead him into corruption and his corruption will destroy his soul in the long run. (I get a little into psychology sometimes, and my theory is psychology has a lot to do with a persons heart, not just his brain, because the heart is the main motivator, the brain just tells the body to move , but the heart is what tells the brain to move , ya dig?) I'm going to copy/paste this over to the Nature of the creator thread, because I got more into it than I expected to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guerillaeye Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 the next step... Feudalism!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelofdeath Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 i thought this government was formed by "we the people" and the powers not specifically enumerated in the constitution was to be left to the states? the way i see it, if muhammad, john, or adam sandler, want to pray in school, voluntarily, no law should stop them from doing so. if the school is making mandatory school prayer, and making every student do so, this is wrong and tramples liberty. i dont think the federal government should have any say in what states do with thier schools. this power was not given to the feds in the constitution. a strong central government is the easiest way to promote tyranny. stopping voluntary school prayer is a direct violation of the peoples freedom of religion. step 1: abolish the federal department of education. also, i think alot of you guys are either ignorant to the fact, have choosen to gloss over the fact, or deny the fact that kids are getting charges brought against them for voluntarily bringing bibles to school to read during free time, praying voluntarily, bibles and kuran's being thrown in trash cans by teachers and being called "garbage." voluntary school prayer, bible study, etc etc is freedom of religion. banning this is a violation of the first amendment. forcing people to pray, read the bible, violation of the first amendment. teaching creationism: totally ok. teaching darwinism: totally ok. neither should be taught as fact, but as "creationists believe X" "evolutionists believe Y" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villain Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 If we abolish the federal department of education then they are going to set up religious schools for suicide bombers out in bumblefuck, USA. Other than that, I agree with you, angelofdeath. Praying should be voluntary, not mandatory for or against. Creationism should be taught in theology, Evolution should be taught in science. Why the fuck do people make this so difficult? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 suicide bombers aren't bred in the USA. (not for the most part anyway) Suicide Bombers are bred and cultivated under the supervision of the good ole boy American foreign policy that spawns more pissed off suicide bombing orphans than Bush and his rawhide posse can shake a stick at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KING BLING Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Originally posted by angelofdeath+Oct 17 2005, 05:31 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (angelofdeath - Oct 17 2005, 05:31 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> also, i think alot of you guys are either ignorant to the fact, have choosen to gloss over the fact, or deny the fact that kids are getting charges brought against them for voluntarily bringing bibles to school to read during free time, praying voluntarily, bibles and kuran's being thrown in trash cans by teachers and being called "garbage." Quoted post [/b] <!--QuoteBegin-KING BLING@Oct 15 2005, 12:56 PM Though this is the image the psycho right wants you to see - a little blonde haired kid tears from his big puppy dog blue eyes running down his face with jesus looking on in disgust while some liberal lesbian principle with fangs and a tail hits him and rips the bible from his hand - its simply not the case. Quoted post ...Prove it, and not just one case, show a pattern, show a growing legal movement, show anything that isn't anecdotal... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelofdeath Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Originally posted by KING BLING@Oct 17 2005, 11:06 PM ...Prove it, and not just one case, show a pattern, show a growing legal movement, show anything that isn't anecdotal... Quoted post before i prove it, i want to say, Villian, your right. i dont see what the problem is. if you and I can pretty much agree on this, why cant everyone? LOL bling: im sure this will get boring, but here are few nonetheless. i'll throw some more at you when i get home. not all of this is copy and paste, so forgive me. Samuel Kent, US district Judge for southern Texas, ruled anyone saying the word "Jesus" would be imprisoned for 6 moths. and is quoted as saying : "make no mistake, the court is going to have a United States Marshal in attendance at the graduation. If any student offends this court, that student will be summarily arrested and will face up to 6 months incarceration in the Galveston County Jail for contempt of court.... anyone who violates these orders no kidding, is going to wish that he or she had died as a small child when this court gets through with it." ( " the new tolerance" p. 53.") st louis dispatch july 11 1996: when a young kid was voluntarily praying before his lunch meal, a teacher grabbed him up and took him down to the principal. he principal told him it was against the schools rules to pray in school. he did it 2 other times. and was "caught." the school denied they disciplined him for prayer. 4 sworn witnesses testified every time they took him to the office, it was when he was praying before lunch. needless to say the boy won, and the school adopted a rule of voluntary prayer during times of non instruction time. 1997 Ira DeMint Federal judge issued an injunction against dekalb county alabama, from organizing, sponsoring, or encouraging school sanctioned religious activity. fair enough right? attached was an injunction banning ALL VOLUNTARY prayer. the court appointed "prayer policemen" for the sole purpose of regulating prayer, (estimated cost 62,000$ what good use of tax money!) chandler vs siegleman 11th cir. court Lynn Lucas,Middle School Teacher, Houston Tx Area, reportedly shouted "This is garbage" as she threw 2 students Truth for Youth Bibles in a trash can. in the same school 3 students who had 10 commandments book covers on text books, had thier covers ripped off and the covers deemed "hate speech." the progressive journal vol 4 issue 67, july 17, 2002 Elizabeth Johnson, Boulder Valley school district in Colorado, did an oral book report on the book of exodus. the teacher stopped the report, and said that "some might consider the bible offensive." she later said that teh child couldnt bring her bible to school. after legal action was taken, the child was allowed to do her report. (burlington county times, nov 6 2002.) i'll give you dozens more, but i dont have the time right now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psyone Posted December 24, 2005 Share Posted December 24, 2005 Originally posted by Tesseract@Oct 13 2005, 04:22 AM President George Bush has started a national debate in the US over the teaching of evolution in school. The president has suggested that a theory known as "intelligent design" should be taught in the classroom. proves once again Bushs lack of intelligence, this so-called ID shit is ridiculous, im feelin sorry for u americans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krakatau Posted December 24, 2005 Share Posted December 24, 2005 Actually, it proves that he understands his base is made up of christians who believe this shit. We would live to be 1000 years old like everyone in the bible, but polution has stunted everything. That is why dinosaurs all shrank into lizards, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psyone Posted December 24, 2005 Share Posted December 24, 2005 Originally posted by Krakatau+Dec 23 2005, 09:35 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Krakatau - Dec 23 2005, 09:35 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>Actually, it proves that he understands his base is made up of christians who believe this shit. [/b] agree <!--QuoteBegin-Krakatau@Dec 23 2005, 09:35 PM We would live to be 1000 years old like everyone in the bible, but polution has stunted everything. That is why dinosaurs all shrank into lizards, too. Quoted post :haha: we have a new candidate for the Nobel award Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krakatau Posted December 24, 2005 Share Posted December 24, 2005 You get the Trinity Broadcasting Network where you live? That is honestly some of the creationism 'science' that gets air time on that shit. There was also some other shit about living in the interior of the earth at the north poles, but I tend to get science fiction mixed up sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shape1369 Posted December 25, 2005 Share Posted December 25, 2005 a class i took last semester was focused on how large shifts in modes of thinking among the scientific community. We talked about ID for a couple weeks. It is unfortunate that people can't see how ID uses scientific vernacular to preach an argument of gaps. One of the reaons ID is very hard for the scientific community to combat is that it is the first time that creationist have taken to using the same language as scientist, thus the same problems that arise when the general public interprets that information ends up being a tool for the ID Camp. By relying upon the general public's lack of ability to understand what is being said through scientific language those that speak for ID use that linguistic disparity to pass a simple antecedent for creationism off as scientific theory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sillysiphilis Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 The arguments in support of ID are flawed because they are based merely on the evolutionary theories' shortcomings, and fail to show how ID can give a clear and concise answer in toppling these shortcomings. Instead, they regard this topic as one that eludes any clear understanding - a rub-off that inherently proves to run counter of the scientific process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelofdeath Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 it boils down to, both ID and evolution require faith. evolution has serious holes, which one has to have faith in to believe the theory. ID has holes, which ones needs to have faith in to believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SF1 Posted December 29, 2005 Share Posted December 29, 2005 Originally posted by angelofdeath@Dec 28 2005, 09:44 PM it boils down to, both ID and evolution require faith. evolution has serious holes, which one has to have faith in to believe the theory. ID has holes, which ones needs to have faith in to believe. Quoted post True. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shape1369 Posted December 29, 2005 Share Posted December 29, 2005 What are you defining as "evolution", angelofdeath? Faith in a creation is much different than supporting a theory of progressive change through millions of years untill a better description of the natural world comes along. The difference in the faith you so ascribe to those that believe in evolution vs creation lies in the nature of science vs theology itself. A scientist will accept a correct theory when there is adequate empirical data to support one claim over another. When a new theory comes along that challenges the previously accepted one, their must be stronger evidence/better model than the previous theory. Thus, the difference is shown, evolution does not need faith to survive, creation does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Birch Posted December 29, 2005 Share Posted December 29, 2005 for SF! etc^^^ false... evolution isn't a religion to be believed or disbeleived... evolution is a PROCESS whose understanding of continues to evolve and be comprehended.. as I said before, evolution as a theory has been around for thousands of years...Darwin's only contribution was making it popular (again) by introducing a thoery on the mechanism of evolution, namely natural selection. That theory though more or less has been supplanted by the study of DNA and genetics... I wish people would understand this point... heres an example: how a baby grows in the fetus. because we do not yet know fully how a fetus develops in the womb, do we just throw our hands up in the air and say storks bring babies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shape1369 Posted December 29, 2005 Share Posted December 29, 2005 ^^Seems you took a different route to the same thoughts I had to SF1 and angelofdeath. I think that is one of the largest problems with defending evolution against ID is that people dont actually understand what all is entailed with the word evoltion. If people undestood what the theory actually was then perhaps they wouldn't think it merely means "we come from monkeys." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!@#$% Posted December 29, 2005 Share Posted December 29, 2005 evolution is science, not faith faith does not rest on empirical evidence or data science, and it's theories, do. evolution is sort of testable as well being that anthropological genetics have demonstrated common ancestry through mitochondrial DNA one of these days the u.s. is just gonna be a bunch of uneducated violent low class mofos ..who go to church every sunday Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sillysiphilis Posted December 29, 2005 Share Posted December 29, 2005 ^^^^^^^^^^^ Yea, evolution is testible in SO many ways Think about the bird flu - some of the very people who are defending ID are among the many who are fretting as to whether the flu may evolve into a virus that can attack humans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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