MAR Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 Adee bin Haatim heard the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam) reciting the verse, "They (the Jews and Christians) took their rabbis and monks to be their lords besides Allaah." [ at-Tawbah (9): 31] Upon which I said, "indeed we did not worship them." [The Prophet (sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam)] said, "did they not make unlawful that which Allaah made lawful and so you too did the same? [Did they not] make lawful what Allaah made unlawful and so you too did the same?" I replied, "verily." He said, "this then was the worship of them." Allah knows best and the rabbis do not.... "According to the sentence of the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do: thou shalt not decline from the sentence which they shall show thee, to the right hand, nor to the left." -Deuteronomy 17:11 This sentence refers to the oral law: the interpretation of the torah as passed down by the Rabbis originally given to the people by Moshe. G-d instructed the people to follow the Rabbis. Which makes sense seeing as I cant pick up a phone and dial him everytime I want to know the answer to another question of mine. We Jews believe we have two torahs: Torah SheBichtav- The written law, and Torah SheBal Peh: The oral law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted September 6, 2006 Author Share Posted September 6, 2006 I just realized something, Dawood. If you take the Quran literally, does that mean that you believe that the universe is only about 6,000 years old? Evolution is one thing, but it would take some serious mental gymnastics and rationalization to buy into the idea of a young earth! Noooo WAY! The quran never said that. That was actually in the bible , I think. There is nowhere in the quran where it states exactly how old the universe is. I would have to do more research on that subject to find out more ,but, I know for sure that there is no number that the quran suggests, especially not 6000 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted September 6, 2006 Author Share Posted September 6, 2006 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8523733033479133693&q=ummah+films&hl=en who hijacked my religion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAR Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 ZOMFG!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted September 6, 2006 Author Share Posted September 6, 2006 Very interesting. I like how the Quran does not put the blame for eating from the tree of knowledge squarely on Eve, like the book of Genesis. The Quran seems very non-linear and poetic, would I be right in saying that? Speaking of creation stories, here's one of my favorites, from the Iroquois peoples. http://www.cs.williams.edu/~lindsey/myths/myths_12.html yeah, I noticed that also about the eating of the tree. actually,the quran is very poetic. That is one of the miricles of the quran because during the time of the prophet Muhammad poetry was very prevalent and the arabs were very eloquent people in terms of poetry and language. The people who opposed the message of Islam during Muhammad's time used to call him a magician or a sorcerer because the quran was a literary miricle that they never had witnessed before. In Arabic it is much more rich and meaningful than when you read the english translation , but yes, for sure the quran is an Arabic language miracle and until this day is still sets the standard for what is known as classical arabic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted September 6, 2006 Author Share Posted September 6, 2006 ZOMFG!!!! blasphemy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAR Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 Very interesting. I like how the Quran does not put the blame for eating from the tree of knowledge squarely on Eve, like the book of Genesis. Nor does berashit. Both are at fault. Adam is at fault for telling his wife you cannot touch the tree (instead of eat from it), and Chava (eve) is at fault for convincing her husband to eat from the tree. Both are punished. Adam is forced to work the land for food and Chava was cursed with the pains of childbirth. But from the simple reading of the verses you might assume there is no direct blame on Adam. I can elaborate if you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted September 6, 2006 Author Share Posted September 6, 2006 The example of Adam is the example of mankind. The nature of man is that he makes mistakes and commits sins. Adam and eve made a mistake, but they repented to Allah. They asked his forgiveness and he forgave them. Islam teaches that the best of mankind is not the one who is perfect (because no such human exists) but the best of mankind is the one who sins and then feels remorse and returns to his lord asking forgiveness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAR Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 the best of mankind would be one who strives for perfection but repents if he has sinned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted September 6, 2006 Author Share Posted September 6, 2006 ok, thanks for your opinion , Mar, but I was mentioning what the creator of the heavens and earth said the best of mankind was. oh, and how can you strive for perfection? what do you mean by perfection because perfection in it's truest sense is only for Allah (God). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russell jones Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 Noooo WAY! The quran never said that. That was actually in the bible , I think. There is nowhere in the quran where it states exactly how old the universe is. I would have to do more research on that subject to find out more ,but, I know for sure that there is no number that the quran suggests, especially not 6000 years. I didn't know that, thanks for the correction. The age of the universe in the bible is extrapolated by counting back from the relatively known date of Moses, using the patriarchs' ages. There isn't anything that says "6000 years ago, God created the heaven and the earth." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russell jones Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 Nor does berashit. Both are at fault. Adam is at fault for telling his wife you cannot touch the tree (instead of eat from it), and Chava (eve) is at fault for convincing her husband to eat from the tree. Both are punished. Adam is forced to work the land for food and Chava was cursed with the pains of childbirth. But from the simple reading of the verses you might assume there is no direct blame on Adam. I can elaborate if you want. I never thought of it that way. I could see that. At first glance though, it seems that Eve is convincing Adam. I was thinking about early Protestants, like Luther, who felt that women where naturally manipulative and are more susceptible to temptation from Satan. He also felt that women's sexual urges were insatiable, so they needed to be channeled into the sanctity of marriage. So he got himself a nun and convinced her to drop celibacy and get with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAR Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 ok, thanks for your opinion , Mar, but I was mentioning what the creator of the heavens and earth said the best of mankind was. oh, and how can you strive for perfection? what do you mean by perfection because perfection in it's truest sense is only for Allah (God). Its facinating how you disregard other oppinions because you "know better" b/c of the Koran. What about other religions? Do you not care to hear what others percive what their G-d(s) said? Is this not an open forum for ideas or is this thread mearly a soapbox for you to preach the "words of Islam". Try to be a little more open minded and I promise, if it kills you, I will support your family. I, as a Jew, was taught that G-d commanded the Jewish people to observe his mizvot (commandments) and to draw close to him through practice of His laws. Perfection may not be on the level of G-d but every man and woman has a level of perfection that they can reach and it is thier duty to fufill this goal while living life. I think its time to take another hiatus from the internet...so.ttyl... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fermentor666 Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 I ask you this: What is wrong with knowlege and eating apples??? Why punish mankind for seeking knowledge? Isn't this a completely oppresive sentiment from religion? Make the people fear knowledge! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russell jones Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 gotta agree with the fermentor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Mamerro Posted September 7, 2006 Share Posted September 7, 2006 Speaking of creation stories, here's one of my favorites, from the Iroquois peoples. http://www.cs.williams.edu/~lindsey/myths/myths_12.html So that was Flint who put bones in fish? What a fucking dick. Those things are a hassle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted September 7, 2006 Author Share Posted September 7, 2006 Its facinating how you disregard other oppinions because you "know better" b/c of the Koran. What about other religions? Do you not care to hear what others percive what their G-d(s) said? Is this not an open forum for ideas or is this thread mearly a soapbox for you to preach the "words of Islam". Try to be a little more open minded and I promise, if it kills you, I will support your family. I, as a Jew, was taught that G-d commanded the Jewish people to observe his mizvot (commandments) and to draw close to him through practice of His laws. Perfection may not be on the level of G-d but every man and woman has a level of perfection that they can reach and it is thier duty to fufill this goal while living life. I think its time to take another hiatus from the internet...so.ttyl... well, since you put it that way I'm in total agreement with you. Thanks for explaining. Words are everything and if you leave something out of your intended thought or add something to it when you type it out , people get the wrong idea sometimes. Don't think I don't like to see what other people have to say, if I didn't I wouldn't ever come back to this thread but that doesn't mean I am obliged to agree with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted September 7, 2006 Author Share Posted September 7, 2006 I ask you this: What is wrong with knowlege and eating apples??? Why punish mankind for seeking knowledge? Isn't this a completely oppresive sentiment from religion? Make the people fear knowledge! In the Quran it is not a tree of knowledge it is just mentioned as a tree. And We said: "O Adam ! Dwell you and your wife in the Paradise and eat both of you freely with pleasure and delight of things therein as wherever you will, but come not near this tree or you both will be of the Zâlimûn (wrong-doers)." (Al-Baqarah 2:35) Also, In Islam, knowledge is given huge status. There is a saying that is common on the tounges of muslims "knowlege precedes speech and action" meaning before you say or do something you should have knowledge of that thing you are saying or about to do so that you can attain the maximum benefit from your speech and actions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAR Posted September 7, 2006 Share Posted September 7, 2006 I ask you this: What is wrong with knowlege and eating apples??? Why punish mankind for seeking knowledge? Isn't this a completely oppresive sentiment from religion? Make the people fear knowledge! heres a nice essay on the topic of your question: click here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted September 8, 2006 Author Share Posted September 8, 2006 it's the whole concept of becoming "like God" that gets me. What exactly does the author of that article mean when he says it was Eve's intuition and desire to be complete and "like God" ? That's the only part that bothers me. In my opinion we can't ever become "like God". We can be gain faith, be better people, become more spiritual and closer to God in the sense that he is pleased with us, but to be "like God" seems like something beyond our capability. Just one simple attribute of God (and he has many attributes ) will break up that party. For Example, God is "All knowledgable" and when I say All knowledgable I mean knowledgable of everything in existance. He knows how many hairs are growing on our heads , he knows how much the empire state building weighs, he knows what will take place 2000 years from now on every square inch of the planet , so how can we be "like God"? unless it's just a figure of speech, then, sorry for this long-winded rant, well, even if it is a figure of speech , then it's a bad one because ambiguos phrases cause trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smart Posted September 8, 2006 Share Posted September 8, 2006 it's easy to become 'like god'... basically it's a lesson about humility and subservience in both books but the lessons are mixed up... in the bible, with Eve or in the koran about not depicting the human image... it all ties into false idols and the idea of not trying to immortalize yourself. "like God' means immortal or all powerful, or both... most of the major religions frown on that... not Bhuddism though, Bhuddism loves Krusty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted September 8, 2006 Author Share Posted September 8, 2006 whatever, if you could be like God, then you would know the future (and that's just one example) but you can't know the future, Nor can you create something from nothing, nor do you have the ability to even delay your own death so how are you like God? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russell jones Posted September 8, 2006 Share Posted September 8, 2006 That's true Smart. Many people strive for the "Buddha nature." Many also strive towards Buddhahood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted September 8, 2006 Author Share Posted September 8, 2006 ok, sure, i just showed smart how he is not, can not, will not be like God, but you still come in here like" That's true smart"........(shaking my head) someone please explain to me how you can be like God (and when I say like God, I mean in a complete way,) Or any way for that matter, God is beyond our comprehension because we are simply limited humans, so how can we assume that we can be like him if we cannot even comrehend God's true essence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russell jones Posted September 8, 2006 Share Posted September 8, 2006 Hey were both online at the same time! I didn't say anything about God. I said Buddha. Oh, and you posted at the same time as me, so I didn't see your response to Smart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smart Posted September 8, 2006 Share Posted September 8, 2006 Dawood, I expect this to be difficult, possibly, to grasp for a writer turned muslim... I would only say that you probably have a well developed sense of Ego. The best thing I can come up with to further my point is a generalization... kinda weak, I know. Still, basically, if you look at the 'major' religions there's a trend towards a lack of individual identity. Not that you can't be who you are but more a general distrust of those who would be 'better' than the common man. I dunno, I don't really want to argue against Islam so much, as to rather focus on the 'cult of personality' built around people like Bin Laden or Ahmadinejad or Bush or Blair... Basically what I'm getting at is, at least in Xian and Muslim tradition, there is some honor in becoming a spokesman for the people but you MUST realize that YOU are NOT the prophet. Of course, I don't mean YOU, but I mean 'spokesman' in general... humility... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAR Posted September 8, 2006 Share Posted September 8, 2006 Dawood: Like a G-d means attaining a level where you are similar to a G-d. There was said to have been another tree in eden known as the tree of life. If Adam and Eve had eaten from there before they ate from the tree of knowlage they would have been like a G-d. Smart: I think an individual's identity should be built on the collective one. A person will act a certain way if he/she realize that they are a representitive of thier people/religion. In turn you will create a person with greater self awareness which is a very positive trait. As is humility; humility does not mean considering yourself dirt, it means understanding your place in the world and acting accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smart Posted September 8, 2006 Share Posted September 8, 2006 no, humility isn't being dirt. Humility means not elevating yourself above your brotherman. It means you shouldn't have a huge house when your neighbor sleeps under a tree. If everyone else has big houses then, by all means, you should also, but the question arises when the homless person comes to the neighborhood... How does the 'neighborhood' deal with that person? Basically, in my view, all religions strive to keep the individual adherents in the same class, not so much as a lesson about getting too rich but more as a lesson in not letting others get too poor. It's the beginnings of 'noblesse oblige'... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAR Posted September 8, 2006 Share Posted September 8, 2006 is that a bad thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted September 9, 2006 Author Share Posted September 9, 2006 Dawood, I expect this to be difficult, possibly, to grasp for a writer turned muslim... I would only say that you probably have a well developed sense of Ego. The best thing I can come up with to further my point is a generalization... kinda weak, I know. Still, basically, if you look at the 'major' religions there's a trend towards a lack of individual identity. Not that you can't be who you are but more a general distrust of those who would be 'better' than the common man. I dunno, I don't really want to argue against Islam so much, as to rather focus on the 'cult of personality' built around people like Bin Laden or Ahmadinejad or Bush or Blair... Basically what I'm getting at is, at least in Xian and Muslim tradition, there is some honor in becoming a spokesman for the people but you MUST realize that YOU are NOT the prophet. Of course, I don't mean YOU, but I mean 'spokesman' in general... humility... I'm not sure where this relates to our recent conversation about whether it is possible to be "like God" or not. My position was (and still is) that it is totally not possible to become "like God" Nor do I think that phrase is even appropriate in terms of how we should deal with our creator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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