Dawood Posted August 3, 2006 Author Share Posted August 3, 2006 don't think so hard.....pbooth And spectr, I don't mind , No, I'm not a sufi. Sufism is something newly introduced into Islam, The early muslims were ascetics and practiced ascetisism (detachment from worldly life and devotion to worship) Although the prophet Muhammad taught moderation in worship and not to go overboard so as to neglect your other responsibilities. Some sufis are so extreme in their worship that they neglect their families and all they do is worship all day. Others went astray from the original understanding of the prophet and his companions in their veiw of God etc, etc....but in short, I'm not a sufi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest spectr Posted August 3, 2006 Share Posted August 3, 2006 ok just wondering. I have been reading quite a bit about the sufi's recently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the.crooked Posted August 3, 2006 Share Posted August 3, 2006 so the early ascetics were ignorant by your statements? in so much as they neglected their other responsibilites? just lookin for clarification. were you comparing the sufis now to the early ascetics even though the disparity in their introduction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted August 4, 2006 Author Share Posted August 4, 2006 no, my bad if was written that way. The early muslims, the ones who I referred to as ascetics (not today's sufis) were far from ignorant in my view. The early muslims during the time of the Prophet Muhammad were called the "sahaba" Translated "companions" of the prophet Muhammad. The vast majority of muslims look to these companions as being the best example after the prophets. The sufis of today are generally off base when it comes to understanding the religion the way the companions of the prophet understood it. (which is the proper way.) Some are more off base than others and some less. If you read some of the biographies of these people you would be amazed by their character. Abu Bakr As Saddiq, Khadijah bint Qowaylid, Umar Ibn Al khattab, Abu Huraira, Aisha bint Abu Bakr, etc. These people are the muslims role models and Allah says in the Quran that he is pleased with them and they are pleased with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted August 4, 2006 Author Share Posted August 4, 2006 http://www.troid.org/articles/islaamicinfo/newtoislaam/thestraightpath/determining.htm this is a glimpse of muslim history and what happened to Islam since then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russell jones Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 nice design and calligraphy on that site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harpo Marx Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 What sound does a three toed sloth make? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russell jones Posted August 14, 2006 Share Posted August 14, 2006 video called "The Atheist." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted August 16, 2006 Author Share Posted August 16, 2006 And the example of those who disbelieve, is as that of him who shouts to the (flock of sheep) that hears nothing but calls and cries. (They are) deaf, dumb and blind. So they do not understand. (Al-Baqarah 2:171) Beautified is the life of this world for those who disbelieve, and they mock at those who believe. But those who obey Allâh's Orders and keep away from what He has forbidden, will be above them on the Day of Resurrection. And Allâh gives (of His Bounty, Blessings, Favours, Honours, etc. on the Day of Resurrection) to whom He wills without limit. (Al-Baqarah 2:212) Verily, those who disbelieved, and died while they were disbelievers, the (whole) earth full of gold will not be accepted from anyone of them even if they offered it as a ransom. For them is a painful torment and they will have no helpers. (Aali Imran 3:91) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russell jones Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 I like the first quote, but I think the last two prove the point of the video. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted August 16, 2006 Author Share Posted August 16, 2006 whatever, you were sufficiently warned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russell jones Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 What the hell is that supposed to mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the.crooked Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 means were goin to hell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted August 17, 2006 Author Share Posted August 17, 2006 it means that you were warned. The prophets and messengers were sent to mankind to bring glad tidings of an eternal paradise that no eyes has ever seen. And they were also sent to warn mankind of an eternal fire who's fuel is people and stones. The inhabitants of the fire will reject God's signs and in turn reject his guidance and become rebellious idol worshippers or self worshippers instead of humbling themselves before their creator. I'm in no position to say anyone is going to hell. That's God's department. If you read the quran you'll see who goes to hell and who does'nt but none of us are dead yet so the true certainty hasn't reached us yet. Death is certainty. When we die we'll all know our fate, but at that time it'll be too late to come back. that's what I beleive. We all beleive something, even if you don't beleive in anything. I just don't think enough people take it serious enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russell jones Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 Actually, I do believe something. I believe that I am a good person, and that if there was a hell (which I don't believe in), that I would not be going. I don't see how if God existed that God would be so petty as to send someone to eternal torture for not believing in them. No God has communicated their existance to me, so no God has the right to expect me to believe. And don't say that I'm not listening to God, or ignoring the signs, because if God really wanted me to believe, God would communicate to me in a way that I could understand. When I am speaking to my students, and they don't understand what I am saying, I consider it my fault, not theirs. I adjust my communication style until they do understand. If God wanted to convince people to believe, then God could, be God hasn't, for a lot of people. What do you think about all the Christians and Jews and Buddhists? Are they going to hell too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAR Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 since theres no eternal damnation in judaism, I've always wondered where christians and muslims got that idea from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted August 17, 2006 Author Share Posted August 17, 2006 from Jesus and Muhammad. Not to mention Moses. (peace be upon them) So, if there's no eternal Damnation in Judaism, What happens to non-Jews according to Judaism? btw, welcome back, Mar, long time no see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted August 17, 2006 Author Share Posted August 17, 2006 Actually, I do believe something. I believe that I am a good person, and that if there was a hell (which I don't believe in), that I would not be going. I don't see how if God existed that God would be so petty as to send someone to eternal torture for not believing in them. No God has communicated their existance to me, so no God has the right to expect me to believe. And don't say that I'm not listening to God, or ignoring the signs, because if God really wanted me to believe, God would communicate to me in a way that I could understand. When I am speaking to my students, and they don't understand what I am saying, I consider it my fault, not theirs. I adjust my communication style until they do understand. If God wanted to convince people to believe, then God could, be God hasn't, for a lot of people. What do you think about all the Christians and Jews and Buddhists? Are they going to hell too? God is communicating with you right now through one of his creation and you are not listening, You are being disagreeable. If you don't understand, then read the quran and may you be enlightened. Most of us live long lives and I beleive life is a test. Life also takes many sharp curves, so what you beleive today may drastically change, that's why we can never say so and so is going to hell because we're judged based on our end condition. Not based on 40 years ago. There's so much I can say, but I think it's better if I just ancourage you to read the quran , then we can speak intellectually about it instead of going tit for tat. www.thenoblequran.com And to answer your question truthfully, Yes, If they remain Jews, Christians and Buddhists, I do beleive they are not going to be rewarded for their Idol worship, quite the contrary. (the idol worship statement excluding the Jews) But I still do not beleive that a jew can enter paradise and save himself from Hell except that he accepts ALL of God's messengers , not just stopping at Moses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the.crooked Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 I don't think he is going tit for tat. I think he is showing that in rational thought there is reason to believe that if there is a God, it would be less concerned with the actual faith in it than the life that person led. So a question then, what about people that existed previous to Islam? You grant me that there were those before the prophets, whom had not had the chance to read the quran, or to experience Islam? So what of their souls? Damnation? Limbo? Dawood, do you think there can be true morality outside of religion? Can an athiest person truely excersize a good moral standing? Or is morality born of religion? (this is out to you too MAR). I ask this because I'm lookin at it a way much like russel jones, I think. It is the life a person leads, the moral values they uphold (in your case, the ones listed by the quran), that would determine their respective goodness or value as a person. Is God's system so rigid that a person would be cast from paradise if no matter how morally righteous a life he/she has led, they did not strictly adhere to the interpretation of who God is? Beyond that, what of an athiest in the same position? Also, to speak of your own interpretation of God and its validity: Do you think that you understand who God is? or what it is? Do you think any other muslim of equal study to yourself also has what they believe to be a working understanding of God? Do you think your respective interpretations would be the same? And if not, whose is the more correct one? Do you think that beyond the case of your two seperate readings of the same texts (quran, etc), there are any other possible equally studied yet varying interpretations? Of the now multitude of possible interpretations, which one is the most credible? and why? Hopefully you can see the point I'm getting at. That at some point you must accept that comparative to the multitude of other possible interpretations of God, no one has any more chance of being more correct than another. That you conceed that god is something incomprehensible to the human condition only elucidates the problem. If it is something we can know nothing of in its pure form, how can we profess to know anything of it? I think statements like "it means that you were warned" is nothing more than appeal to a higher authority which you yourself believe you can know nothing of. Russel, or myself, or anyone who doesn't particularly believe in God or heavn or hell, has any equal chance of being correct in the long run as you. What have I been warned of? That my possible eternal existence could end up in one of any multitude of existential scenarios? Fucking sweet. We all make a choice at the basest level about the reason we act the way we do. You feel that you direct your life towards the message of a God. And that by following it hopefully you will lead a righteous life that ultimately garuantees your eternal happiness. Thats all gravy. I lead a life where I try to make the right desicion based on my best judgement. I bet the moral standards I practice are of equal merit to yourself, or that any other member's (save some) are as well. What is it that makes me do so if not God? Perhaps my reliance on my own choice is comparable to your belief in God. I have been trying to figure out what to state my beliefs as in the last year or two and I have been having a bit of trouble. I jokingly say I am a nhilist, but I hate the connotation. I don't think there is any real point to any thing. Existence, the universe, the whole deal. But I think from that perspective then lies a choice. Do I act a fool under the guise of the lack of any real reason not to do so? Or do I move to believe that from that lack of actual reason I can choose to do whatever I want? And in those possibilities I could choose to be caring, and informed and wanting to do the right thing, of my own accord. I choose that one. I do the best I can for my family, my friends and anyone else whom I think I can help. I suppose the point of this diatribe is what I have been trying to get to in this thread the whole time. I don't think any of us will ever be right. Or that we can ever convince any other person here of what we are sure of. Like ya said Dawood, we ain't dead yet. Perhaps we'll know then. /end high rant... edit- Apologies, I just realized how rediculously long and unneedingly wordy this is. Sorry, hope I made sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russell jones Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 Nice response crooked, I couldn't have said it better myself. I would like to add that the quran was written by a man, even though Dawood believes that it was written by God, so I cannot consider proof for the existance of God. I wiil add that existentialist philosophers such as Satre became socialists, which in my opinion is the most humane form of governance, and I think that part the reason they became socialists is because they accepted there would be no God, and therefore, no after life. If one doesn't believe in an afterlife, they are forced to assess the true impact of their actions on this earth, rather than in relation to some reward in the afterlife. Without an afterlife to fall back on, rich people cannot feel good about exploiting poor people, leaders can't send their youngsters to war, and most importantly, people cannot chalk up their position in life to the fact that God does or does not love them. Therefore, we are all truely responsible for our own actions and we must account only for the people with live with. I think I am truly moral despite my lack of belief in the absolute or any religion. If a god would send me to hell for not believing despite my good life, the god is obviously not a moral god, but a petty and vengeful god. I would also say that I do not believe, crooked, that you are a nihlist since you embrace many things, not just deny them. Lack of belief is not necessarily denial, just lack of belief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russell jones Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 since theres no eternal damnation in judaism, I've always wondered where christians and muslims got that idea from. I didn't say that judaism had eternal damnation, I was asking Dawood if he thought they would be damned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the.crooked Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 yeah. thats why i say it jokingly. it at least covers the base idea i believe in though. this was about russell's response to my nhilist comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted August 18, 2006 Author Share Posted August 18, 2006 I don't think he is going tit for tat. I think he is showing that in rational thought there is reason to believe that if there is a God, it would be less concerned with the actual faith in it than the life that person led. A persons Faith will direct The life a person leads to either goodness or wrong actions, for example If a person gives charity believing that his God (which he beleives is a Cow) will reward him for his good , will he be rewarded? In Islam we're taught that actions are by intention and people will be rewarderded for whatever they intended, so If they were generally good people in the general meaning of the word good, meaning that they didn't kill people or steal and they held doors for old ladies at the store etc. but by night they worshipped satan, do you think that good they do will help them before God? I don't think so , actions are by intention.. but we all have opinions So a question then, what about people that existed previous to Islam? You grant me that there were those before the prophets, whom had not had the chance to read the quran, or to experience Islam? So what of their souls? Damnation? Limbo? No, All of the prophets in the bible like Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Noah were all prophets of Islam, (which means submission to Almighty God) All of the nations of believers were muslims from the beginning of time until now. They didn't neecessarily call themselves "muslims" but the beleif was the same with all of the prophets. The same message "worship God without worshipping others along with him. Single all worship out for the creator and do not make idols and worship them, etc etc. All of the prophets were on this religion of pure monotheism. Dawood, do you think there can be true morality outside of religion? Can an athiest person truely excersize a good moral standing? Or is morality born of religion? (this is out to you too MAR). I think athiests can practice morality , for sure. I know some athiests/agnostics that are more moral than some muslims that I know but originally , these morals and manners that we learn come to us by way of the knowledge the prophets gave to us and were passed down through tradition. I was raised far from muslim, but when I became muslim I realized how mush impact the prophet Muhammad had on daily practices people do , but they never realize where it came from. I ask this because I'm lookin at it a way much like russel jones, I think. It is the life a person leads, the moral values they uphold (in your case, the ones listed by the quran), that would determine their respective goodness or value as a person. Is God's system so rigid that a person would be cast from paradise if no matter how morally righteous a life he/she has led, they did not strictly adhere to the interpretation of who God is? Beyond that, what of an athiest in the same position? If a person has good in him, he will be guided. Actions are by intention, and many people are good because they want to be known as "good". In my opinion, that doesn't cut it. A person should do good to please God not just to satisfy a desire to be known as a nice, charitable guy or to feel self worth. Also, to speak of your own interpretation of God and its validity: Do you think that you understand who God is? or what it is? I only understand God as much as my limited mind is capable. Not to mention that God only revealed in the quran about himself as it relates to our benefit. Let me re-word that. I don't know, for example, what God looks like or how big God is, or his exact location because these things aren't beneficial for us in terms of getting to know him because they are irrelevent and for example if god were let's say "black" then black people would feel superior over other people, so these things arent relevant and we don't beleive that God is anything like his creation anyway, so...all I know is he is literally "above the seven heavens ina manner that befits his majesty" (as it says in the quran). Do you think any other muslim of equal study to yourself also has what they believe to be a working understanding of God? I'm actually not that studious as far as muslim students go. Look at me I hang around graffiti boards everyday. Real muslim students are not like me. May Allah make me better. I'm not sure what you mean by "working understanding of God" We'll have to discuss that in more detail. Do you think your respective interpretations would be the same? And if not, whose is the more correct one? are you writing an essay? jk, I don't understand english very well. so speak slowly to me, thanks. he he Do you think that beyond the case of your two seperate readings of the same texts (quran, etc), there are any other possible equally studied yet varying interpretations? the quran is actually only considered the quran when it is in it's original arabic. English, spanish, french translations are considered interpretations of the meanings the best english interpretation is the noble quran by Taqi ad deen al hilali and Mubakpuri. but If you google The noble quran it will come up. www.thenoblequran.com or you can buy it at http://darussalam.com/ There are a few authentic interpretations of the quran by early scholars like ibn Kathir www.tafsir.com that are agreed upon by the scholars and the rest of the muslims. There are many contemporary interpretations that are rejected simply because they are at odds with the early interpretations by the companions of the prophet Muhammad. Of the now multitude of possible interpretations, which one is the most credible? and why? definately Ibn Kathir or Qurtabi , there are others but those two are very popular and breifly, because they were the early scholars who held to the original priciples of explaining the quran and stuck to the undertanding of the prophet Muhammad's companions (you are asking very good questions btw.) Hopefully you can see the point I'm getting at. That at some point you must accept that comparative to the multitude of other possible interpretations of God, no one has any more chance of being more correct than another. That you conceed that god is something incomprehensible to the human condition only elucidates the problem. If it is something we can know nothing of in its pure form, how can we profess to know anything of it? ha, here's your whammy, well, Like I said up top. God only revealed to us things that would be beneficial to us in terms of our lives in this world and in the hereafter so I don't accept the idea that God is incomprehensible to the human condition because his TRUE nature is incomprehensible in the sense that I spoke of earlier, like God's actual physical form, we don't know anything abot God's physical form simply because we don't need to know that in order to serve him. It's suffiecient that we know he created us and bestows everything upon us from his great bounties and that we should be grateful for that. I think statements like "it means that you were warned" is nothing more than appeal to a higher authority which you yourself believe you can know nothing of. Russel, or myself, or anyone who doesn't particularly believe in God or heavn or hell, has any equal chance of being correct in the long run as you. What have I been warned of? That my possible eternal existence could end up in one of any multitude of existential scenarios? Fucking sweet. man, read the quran and you'll understand...did you read it? I bet not. We all make a choice at the basest level about the reason we act the way we do. You feel that you direct your life towards the message of a God. And that by following it hopefully you will lead a righteous life that ultimately garuantees your eternal happiness. Thats all gravy. I lead a life where I try to make the right desicion based on my best judgement. I bet the moral standards I practice are of equal merit to yourself, or that any other member's (save some) are as well. What is it that makes me do so if not God? Perhaps my reliance on my own choice is comparable to your belief in God. I have been trying to figure out what to state my beliefs as in the last year or two and I have been having a bit of trouble. I jokingly say I am a nhilist, but I hate the connotation. I don't think there is any real point to any thing. Existence, the universe, the whole deal. But I think from that perspective then lies a choice. Do I act a fool under the guise of the lack of any real reason not to do so? Or do I move to believe that from that lack of actual reason I can choose to do whatever I want? And in those possibilities I could choose to be caring, and informed and wanting to do the right thing, of my own accord. I choose that one. I do the best I can for my family, my friends and anyone else whom I think I can help. I suppose the point of this diatribe is what I have been trying to get to in this thread the whole time. I don't think any of us will ever be right. Or that we can ever convince any other person here of what we are sure of. Like ya said Dawood, we ain't dead yet. Perhaps we'll know then. /end high rant... edit- Apologies, I just realized how rediculously long and unneedingly wordy this is. Sorry, hope I made sense. I had to quit early because it's late and I definatley don't have the time to respond properly to everything you said on the bottom. I enjoy the discourse though, it gets me thinking and re affirming what I beleive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILOTSMYBRAIN Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 I'm going to start my own religion. I created the cosmos, and if you don't believe me, your deaf dumb and blind, and oh yea, have fun in hell too. I don't understand how anyone can believe anything that defends the fact that it's real by basically using the logic above. If you don't believe in "God" your soul will suffer forever, not to mention you're pretty stupid. Same goes for most faiths. You would figure that since God is so forgiveful and all knowing, he'd know about all man's faults, and he would also know the greater good inside of all men. Perhaps I'm asking too much of "God" though, whoever that is. Or I could be wrong, we'll all find out the truth soon enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russell jones Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 or maybe we will just die and find out nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILOTSMYBRAIN Posted August 19, 2006 Share Posted August 19, 2006 That's my point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted August 19, 2006 Author Share Posted August 19, 2006 ILOTSMYBRAIN, Allah already responded to you in the quran. And if you are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Qur'ân) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a Sûrah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allâh, if you are truthful. (Al-Baqarah 2:23) So Allah is challenging you to go ahead and start your own religion and produce even a chapter like the quran and then call all you peoples to bear witness that what you say is the truth. So if your religion is from the true God then, you should have no problem bringing about 5 million people to worship every year like in this picture (amazing isn't it?) and as for not finding anything out when you die Allah says in the quran that you will surely come to know. The mutual rivalry for piling up of worldly things diverts you, Until you visit the graves (i.e. till you die). Nay! You shall come to know! (about the hereafter) Again, Nay! You shall come to know! Nay! If you knew with a sure knowledge (the end result of piling up, you would not have occupied yourselves in worldly things) Verily, You shall see the blazing Fire (Hell)! And again, you shall see it with certainty of sight! Then, on that Day, you shall be asked about the delight (you indulged in, in this world)! (At-Takathur) I know you don't beleive in the quran , but doesn't it seem peculiar that most of the doubts that people put forth with regard to Islam and beleif in God, there is an answer in the quran for it. And as for God knowing mankind and knowing about his greater good , etc. well, God created us and he knows us better than we know ourselves and beleive me , mankind is more ungrateful and selfish than he is good. That's why we need God's assistance in being good because by ourselves we are ungrateful and selfish. And Allah knows best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russell jones Posted August 19, 2006 Share Posted August 19, 2006 I think we are all basically good and corrupted by the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tango 24 Posted August 19, 2006 Share Posted August 19, 2006 i wish i believed in god... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted August 20, 2006 Author Share Posted August 20, 2006 I think we are all basically good and corrupted by the world. I agree that we are all good and pure when we're children, then our surroundings corrupt us and we need guidance outside of what we come up with on our own. I mean, if you beleive that there is a God that even exists at all, then it would be logical to conclude that this God wouldn't leave us to ourselves to wander blindly. just my thinking, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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