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Dawood

discussion on the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth

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I read the full story tonight. That was really interesting. Honestly, that was a bit of the sort of revelation I had the first time I ate shrooms (I'll edit all this out if you need me to mams). It was much like the experience expressed in one of the stories in the salvia divinorum thread. About the guy who discovered the psychoactive agent in salvia. I have been really enamored with this idea of the infinite and how it applies to the world. It is very hard to articulate. I wish I knew japanese or chinese. I feel that they are better suited for these concepts as most of the seminal texts that have caused me to develope this idea on my own are translated from them. The Tao Te Ching really affected me in this respect. If you take certain representations of the void in the Tao Te Ching, and juxtapose it to Descarte's Immutable Truth's, you get my idea.

 

 

The Aleph in the story interests me not as a physical point of knowledge, but the possibility of the concept of that point. That we may come to a moment in our mind's where we are capable of concieving of all that can or will not be. Not to sound to paradoxical myself but it does become quite hard to elocute this thought properly. The best way I can express it is to visualize absolutely nothing. The void is everything and nothing. It is all knowledge and what can come of that knowledge.

 

On another note, I have been thinking about how one can consider what death is. Again the thought came to me during my first trip. I think at that point "the fear" had gotten to me and I was trying to grasp for some sense of reality. I started worrying about getting enough oxygen as I had become completely aware of my breathing and felt that it was no longer a subconcious act. In fact I felt that I had blurred the line between my subconcious and concious thoughts. I felt that I had gained more cognitive power over my autonomous bodily functions. And in such I worried about my ability to regulate my breathing if I were to fall asleep. This led me to consider the nature of what sleep actually is. It occured to me that as far as loss of concious action, sleep is the closest thing I can experience to death. I haven't been able to move from that thought much yet. I think there is a lot I can induct from sleep about death, yet I can't quite get there yet.

 

 

anywho, random thoughts for the night.

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:king: I am an atheist and a darwinist as such I recognise that man wrote all religeous texts for a reason. The ability to write 'truths' down has helped mankind a plethora of ways, resulting in our dominance as mamals.

 

Like most well-adjusted human beings inhabiting this planet I feel the need to be progressive as well as cyclical, I have read alot of religious texts translated into english. I have yet to read the old testament in it's entireity.

 

Just recently I have begun to read about agnosticism although that smacked of monolithesque science fiction and scientology.

 

I went to an anglican-christian school, where I soon began to develop what I thought was a relationship with god. I used to do and say things, progressive things, that my christian god would have never condoned. I began to indulge in a thought process like this; I know god is everywhere and everything, I am sorry I am doing things that are not in the interest of god-fearing peoples. At which point I had an atheistic realisation, if man created god and not the other way around, then no justification for my behaiviour is called for, at least in god's eyes.

 

I am not a nihlist (anymore). A stage of my life full of experimentation as far as drugs and sex go but I don't particularly want to talk about that stuff at length, psychedelica and internalism lead only to another world, described commonly as infinity or anarchy, which I was perfectly happy to continue with if only it weren't illegal. during this time I was running on base emotions, stolen cash and not much else.

 

I am a racist in a sense that races and species have common characteristics and to not aknowlege them would be naive. I know that muslim speaking countries and english countries both share the phrase 'birds of a feather'.

 

I aknowlege the power of ritual, but only in the pursuit of my prolonged existance would I indulge in it, I fear its not in my nature nor would I pursue it out of anything but pure necessity.

 

I am a post-modernist with a twist of egoism, though I am sure as I continue to read more and more my veiw of the world will change radically still. The question of existentialism and morals is continually confusing at this point, I am sure it is for all peoples on a quest for enlightenment.

 

 

Easier to grasp than the concept of god? I don't know.

 

 

Side question; if arabic peoples created god first, which is generally accepted as the truth, how come western cultures created industrialism first? Surely the foundations of a great civilisation were there, what was the philosophical stumbling block that allowed western culture to shoot into the lead?

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Originally posted by shape1369@Feb 13 2006, 01:52 AM

Had more to do with the creation of the middle class at the end of the feudal era in Europe. Read up on that if you want an answer.

 

Sorry man, I know its a long period of time during which many changes had developed, I was after opinions rather than one definate answer.

 

I would never suggest that atheistic philosphy alone was the advantage that allowed the west to become as advanced as it is today. (If that is the impression I gave, I applogise) ;)

 

 

peace!

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Originally posted by backfromgrave@Feb 21 2006, 02:21 AM

yea a lot of people obtain half the information in their religion..

 

but dawood.. you had a freind on here that said they (whites i presume0 would go to hell (i tihnk for maybe not accepting the name 'allah' as god or something like that ).. but then wouldnt muslims go to hell according to other religions!! ie: according to jews or christians..

 

i personally dont believe in that part or believe in hell period (especaily gogin to hell for not being able to see a certain name title as the true one and only god ie "allah" or "jesus christ") just follow the feeling n shit..

 

 

LOL "whites I presume" No, there are oodles of white muslims, whole countries of them as a matter of fact. Algerians (in north africa) are white. Not Bob Dobolina white , but white nonetheless. There is nothing wrong woth being white. Allah doesn't look at your skin color or your status or your job or how big your house is. He looks to our hearts to judge us.

Anyway, muslims beleive that if you don't accept Islam in submission to Allah (which is an Arabic word that means "the god") and reject all forms of false dieties and idols, then you will go to hell for rejecting his message.

It's not about whether you accept the title "Allah" or not. It basically hinges on whether you worshipped false idols like men, animals stones, stars, etc. and did you accept Allah's prophets like Noah, Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Muhammad etc.

To, me, (and I might be wrong) Islam is basically an updated form of Judaism. Mars? Because muslims beleive in the message of Moses, but we also beleive in the message of Muhammad who came to affirm the messengers before him. It has been said before that the reason that the Jews didn't accept Muhamamd as a prophet is because he didn't come from them (meaning because he was an arab and not a Jew) There were some jews who accepted Islam during the lifetime of the prophet Muhammad who affirmed that the description of Muhammad was in their books, but the rabbis hid it because they didn't want to acknowledge him because he wasn't a Jew.

 

(this discussion really belongs in the nature of the creator thread)

 

i'm going to move it there, so we can continue this discussion there and not hijack this thread.

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yes a lot of mixed ideas, but the truth is one.

everyone has a religion here.

even if they say they dont, believe me it has a name and all other believe other than worshiping god and following all his prophets its the religion of satan, the oposite of godss path.

there is nothing straighter than god's path.

now, go study religious scriptures, put your worldy life aside and tell me what is the straight path...

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we are not special. there is no heaven or hell, just death. humans are an outlier, an anomoly, a parasite. we will destroy this world along with ourselves. just us, not god. there is no god or creator. the universe is infinate which means never ending never beginning. our minds cannot fathom this idea so we simplify it, sort it, control it. our number one subconscious goal is control. control over our existence has led to evolution and technology which in turn is de-evolution. u will die and no one is here to save u.

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Auragod, what brought you to this particular conclusion?

I'm talking about the part where you said that there is no God or creator. Not what you said about death, because We're in agreement on that, I'm not trying to antagonise you or prove you wrong just wondering how your logic works when you see the creation everyday, but you don't accept that theres a such thing as a creator.

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All praises and thanks be to Allâh, Who (Alone) created the heavens and the earth, and originated the darkness and the light, yet those who disbelieve hold others as equal with their Lord. (Al-An'am 6:1)

 

Is not He (better than your so-called gods) Who originates creation, and shall thereafter repeat it, and Who provides for you from heaven and earth? Is there any ilâh (god) with Allâh? Say, "Bring forth your proofs, if you are truthful." (An-Naml 27:64)

 

And indeed We have distributed it (rain or water) amongst them in order that they may remember the Grace of Allâh, but most men refuse (or deny the Truth or Faith) and accept nothing but disbelief or ingratitude. (Al-Furqan 25:50)

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look at the clouds for a long time and you will see god...which is really just an idea made by humans to justify thier existence...the human mind is god.the human mind will destroy god...fuck all religions they are bullshit...if you dont have a religion you can really be in touch with god because there iare no inhibiting factors... just you and yourself and the world... dont do this dont do that...what kind of god puts down limits and what right does that god have to do so??none and none...when humans are gone the world will still be here working itself of the manmade hell...there will be no god because there will be no humans...

 

i agree with auragod

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Originally posted by THELASTKILLA!!!@Mar 29 2006, 08:55 PM

look at the clouds for a long time and you will see god...which is really just an idea made by humans to justify thier existence...the human mind is god.the human mind will destroy god...fuck all religions they are bullshit...if you dont have a religion you can really be in touch with god because there iare no inhibiting factors... just you and yourself and the world... dont do this dont do that...what kind of god puts down limits and what right does that god have to do so??none and none...when humans are gone the world will still be here working itself of the manmade hell...there will be no god because there will be no humans...

 

i agree with auragod

 

Read what you wrote again and keep two things in mind.

 

As a human you wont be able to comprehend anything that isnt in front of you. Therefore to understand a higher beings motives would be difficult.

 

Remember the saying "Hindsight is 20/20" when you look back on things they make sense eventhough right now they may seem random.

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Originally posted by shape1369@Feb 12 2006, 08:37 AM

I read the full story tonight. That was really interesting. Honestly, that was a bit of the sort of revelation I had the first time I ate shrooms (I'll edit all this out if you need me to mams). It was much like the experience expressed in one of the stories in the salvia divinorum thread. About the guy who discovered the psychoactive agent in salvia. I have been really enamored with this idea of the infinite and how it applies to the world. It is very hard to articulate. I wish I knew japanese or chinese. I feel that they are better suited for these concepts as most of the seminal texts that have caused me to develope this idea on my own are translated from them. The Tao Te Ching really affected me in this respect. If you take certain representations of the void in the Tao Te Ching, and juxtapose it to Descarte's Immutable Truth's, you get my idea.

 

I can directly relate to all of that, except I haven't read any Descarte. Have you read the Zhuangzi? I think it's a more nuanced formulation of mostly the same ideas in the Tao Te Ching, but I feel like it approaches them much better...more creatively, if you will. Anyway, the major idea I get out of these texts and other texts that express essentially the same idea (my personal favorite is William Blake) is to stop thinking about it; the beatific vision, sat-chit ananda, whatever you want to call it, the atavistic egg of philosophy and art, is only accessible by direct perception. If anything, that's what mushrooms have taught me. I'll have more to say about this later but I have to cut. Until then:

 

To see a world in a grain of sand

 

and a heaven in a wild flower,

 

hold infinity in the palm of your hand

 

and eternity in an hour.

 

-William Blake

 

I think that sums the matter up concisely, but I'm still down to discuss.

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Originally posted by THELASTKILLA!!!+Mar 30 2006, 12:55 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (THELASTKILLA!!! - Mar 30 2006, 12:55 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>look at the clouds for a long time and you will see god...which is really just an idea made by humans to justify thier existence...the human mind is god.the human mind will destroy god

 

[/b]

 

the clouds are a creation of God, not God. The human mind is a creation of God, not God. The human mind cannot destroy God. The human mind will eventually die. God does not die.

The creator of the heavens and earth is omnipitent. You may not agree but....some day you will reach the ultimate certainty.

 

Originally posted by THELASTKILLA!!!@Mar 30 2006, 12:55 AM

fuck all religions they are bullshit

 

well, at least your non religious uninhibiting lifestyle leads you to respect other peoples faith.

 

Originally posted by THELASTKILLA!!!@Mar 30 2006, 12:55 AM

if you dont have a religion you can really be in touch with god because there iare no inhibiting factors... just you and yourself and the world... dont do this dont do that...what kind of god puts down limits and what right does that god have to do so??

 

 

well, if you beleived that God was the creator of the heavens and earth, and the one who provided everything to you it would humble you before your Lord who nurtured and fed you since birth and continues to until this day. His rights are more than we could possibly fulfil, since we are in debt to him for everything we enjoy, so It is his right to do whatever he wishes. But God's way is that he will never oppress his creation. Wahtever limits are placed there (in religion) it is for your own good. And whatever good that God encourages you to do in his scripture it is not for him, It is for your own good, so you can learn to be humble and do good sincerely, not just to show off, or for self gratification, but to come closer to your creator, who holds the key to your hearts joy. That is why there are limits to what we should do and shouldnt do.

 

<!--QuoteBegin-THELASTKILLA!!!@Mar 30 2006, 12:55 AM

when humans are gone the world will still be here working itself of the manmade hell...there will be no god because there will be no humans...

 

 

Only God knows the unseen, a person like you or me can't possibly claim to know such a thing. The knowledge that I have, I aquired from God, from his messengers, from his book, I can't claim to have certain knowledge of anything except what I have been taught by the one who created knowledge.

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Originally posted by Xeroshoes+Mar 29 2006, 07:44 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xeroshoes - Mar 29 2006, 07:44 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-shape1369@Feb 12 2006, 08:37 AM

 

I can directly relate to all of that, except I haven't read any Descarte. Have you read the Zhuangzi? I think it's a more nuanced formulation of mostly the same ideas in the Tao Te Ching, but I feel like it approaches them much better...more creatively, if you will. Anyway, the major idea I get out of these texts and other texts that express essentially the same idea (my personal favorite is William Blake) is to stop thinking about it; the beatific vision, sat-chit ananda, whatever you want to call it, the atavistic egg of philosophy and art, is only accessible by direct perception. If anything, that's what mushrooms have taught me. I'll have more to say about this later but I have to cut.

[/b]

 

O man, ive had some pretty crazy changes in my life since i last posted in here. I switched my major from physics with a minor in philosophy to specifically majoring in philosophy. We'll see what happens with that.

 

But anywho, to continue on with the conversation, yeah, shrooms gave me a real interesting perspective on a lot of things. It was really when I started to really understand concepts of the void and all that shit. I am in a philosophy of science class right now, which i find to have rather interesting ties to some of the concepts of the Void and the Infinite. The class focuses on the switch between the modern period and the postmodern and its implications on science and how science is structured. I feel a lot of the paradoxical situations and subtexts discussed in postmodernism can be dealt with pretty well using some of the eastern ideas about truth and the world. I haven't really finished my thoughts on it, but thats what I have been thinking about.

 

As far as actual consideration of the nature of the universe, I have been thinking a lot about noticing small changes around you if you focus on a single thing. Today, we had class outside and I just sort of zoned out considering Hume's restrictions of knowledge, and I saw tons of small movement in the grass. Not like obvious movement from a wind, but minute things caused by either bugs or tensions created by people sitting on the grass. It was very cool.

 

I have been toying with the application of meditation towards any one subject lately. I feel like while learning a new subject, if one dedicates a very large amount of thought to the process, they can gain an infinite wealth of information about that act or process without any direct interaction with it. Take for example sports. I have played a couple sports throughout my life, and I recently picked up frisbee at my school. I enjoyed gettin blazed and watchin the disc (I go to a school full of annoying hippies, I get influenced sometimes). However, I very quickly picked up all of the different throws, not through actual experience of playing, but by thought. I spent a lot of time as I was falling asleep just considering the different levels of variables and causes that went into the action of throwing a frisbee well. I tried to use a period of time that where my concious thought was slowly slipping into a subconcious state as too allow for a larger consideration of concepts than if I were fully awake. I figured out within a quick period of time the different throws by evaluating what muscles I use in each, and applying that to general conceptions of lift and flight of a rotating disc. I admit, all of this may sound a bit redic, but it has worked pretty well for me.

 

There was a recent article about how people should leave large desicions up to their subconcious because of its ability to objectively evaluate large quantities of variables in a given problem. It was pretty interesting. There has is a lot of literature and research being dedicated to studying the neurological implications of the bhuddist mind. So many of the cognitive rules we generally place on the human mind are continually being broken and expanded through research into the cognitive state of bhuddist monks during periods of deep meditation and detachment.

 

blah, im done for now... tequila night calls.

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It's funny what people who don't have kids do and think about. I used to analyze things so deeply when I was younger that sometimes I scared myself with the realizations I had while I was tree'd up or whatever else. I would sometimes feel as if I had a major spiritual breakthrough but a day or two would pass and the "revelation" I thought I had, that was so crystal clear at the moment was now just a vague idea and I would eventually lose the idea. It used to happen to me a lot. I don't have those experiences anymore, kids place your whole mindset on a whole different set of tracks. Life is much simpler these days. Theres no complex matrix to figure out. No missing puzzle peices to find. No vague ideas that I'm trying to make sense of. Just Islam. Pure and simple. submission to the will of the creator. what better thing is there for a wheel to do but roll.

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Originally posted by Dawood@Mar 30 2006, 10:58 PM

It's funny what people who don't have kids do and think about. I used to analyze things so deeply when I was younger that sometimes I scared myself with the realizations I had while I was tree'd up or whatever else. I would sometimes feel as if I had a major spiritual breakthrough but a day or two would pass and the "revelation" I thought I had, that was so crystal clear at the moment was now just a vague idea and I would eventually lose the idea. It used to happen to me a lot. I don't have those experiences anymore, kids place your whole mindset on a whole different set of tracks. Life is much simpler these days. Theres no complex matrix to figure out. No missing puzzle peices to find. No vague ideas that I'm trying to make sense of. Just Islam. Pure and simple. submission to the will of the creator. what better thing is there for a wheel to do but roll.

 

 

thats scary...basically just give up? so sad...

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Originally posted by shape1369@Mar 31 2006, 02:42 AM

There was a recent article about how people should leave large desicions up to their subconcious because of its ability to objectively evaluate large quantities of variables in a given problem. It was pretty interesting. There has is a lot of literature and research being dedicated to studying the neurological implications of the bhuddist mind. So many of the cognitive rules we generally place on the human mind are continually being broken and expanded through research into the cognitive state of bhuddist monks during periods of deep meditation and detachment.

 

One question about the frisbee: weren't you watching the frisbee move through the air, as well as considering a lifetime of intimate interaction with wind, muscle movements, gravity, and the movement of objects near the surface of the earth in general? I'm not sure if one can completely separate oneself from interaction with something. I find the Platonic idea that intellectual consideration is sufficient to learn everything very difficult to accept.

 

I agree that there is a lot to be said about intuition and the subconscious mind. I've read reports of Buddhist monks controlling their own body temperature through meditation and surviving mountain-top temperatures that would have killed ordinary people. We could discuss the implications of this sort of phenomenon all day, but I'm reticent because I don't think either of us know enough about the subject. It definitely interests me though, if you have some more extensive knowledge about the subject please share it.

 

The problems I've been considering lately have been mostly scientific in nature. I took an astrophysics course last semester, and I found the current prevailing views about the beginning and future of the universe to be intuitively unsettling. Other things in astrophysics seem to have a definite direction: stellar birth and death cycles have gradually enriched galaxies with heavier elements, making more terrestrial planets possible, making life possible. Something about the progression from microscopic structure to planetary structure to solar system structure to galactic structure to supercluster structure to the enormous-scale superbubbles that form the largest conception we have of the structure of the universe seems very satisfying. But then we have the idea that it will all expand with increasing speed, while the cycle of star creation gradually wanes, until the universe is left a dark and cold void. Even if all of our theory is correct, I think consciousness must play a more important part. I can't accept such a pointless end because I intuitively believe that the structure we see around us implies purpose.

 

Some of the questions of fundamental particle and quantum physics have also concerned me. Despite the predictive power of Quantum Electrodynamics and Quantum Chromodynamics, it seems like there's a lot to be said about what is really going on at that level. We have strange effects such as quantum tunneling, wave-particle duality, and quantum nonlocality, but I haven't really seen any good explanation of what these things imply about the nature of the universe except that it's "very strange" at that level. String theory seems more intuitively satisfying than particle theories, but there is still the question of the degree to which the conscious observer defines what is observed, and the non-deterministic implications of quantum mechanics. I think this is also very intimately related to the nature of consciousness. Physicists caution against over-interpreting the implications of quantum-nonlocality, but it, along with other aspects of quantum theory, seem to open a pandora's box of possibility. It must be recognized that mathematics is still a language created by humans; there is something going on behind the equations.

 

I'll have more to say about this later, for sure.

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you think that sounds sad? wow, to me it sounds like If I was a tire (using the analogy I used in the last post) I used to get pumped up for a sec , then lose air and stop rolling, then get half pumped and roll around a little until my air was let out, but now i'm pumped up ,man, rolling doing my thing and I'm not losing air just rolling until I get to my destination. I didn't give up nothing but confusion and misguidance. Sorry if I didn't make myself clear.

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