The Man with the Answers Posted April 22, 2006 Share Posted April 22, 2006 Re: the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth Jesus was from Israel and they did not speak aramaic there they spoke hebrew. So maybe Yoshua evolved into Yeshua although from my experience with the language (aramaic) names are rarely changed. The "J" is an Latin/Greek thing. There is no "J" sound in old hebrew except among the Yemenites (but even by them that would be for the letter "gimmel" not "yud") and you rarely find it in modern hebrew. The translation of names has away of massacring the real pronuciation. hebrew in the time of jesus was a ceremonial language much like latin or arabic is today... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man with the Answers Posted April 22, 2006 Share Posted April 22, 2006 Re: the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth interesting. so, numbers represent concepts? the numbers represent concepts. so, the concepts are inherently true regardless of the terms used to describe them? so, say i happen to believe that 1+1=chicken (or any such random nonsense), would this be wrong? i can see how it has little utility and i would probably be called crazy, but am i necessarily wrong? if i believe that the number one represents the concept of one, is it the case that there is no possibility for 1+1 to equal anything but the concept of 2, regardless of what i wish to call it? is it possible that i could be so crazy as to believe that the concept of adding 1+1="the concept of humus" and not just an arbitrary word used to represent the concept of 2? you say that mathematics was true for Descarte because he simply couldn't see it as being any other way. let's say there is a being that has no conception of these ideas, for Descarte, would this be an impossibiliity? is it possible to convince oneself as a shizophrenic is convinced that they perceive things that don't exist to others (i don't know much about the disease, but i saw "a beautiful mind" haha, so maybe it's more than convincing, although the main character is seemingly able to convince himself of that which is real and that which isn't)? another thing that i'm wondering, are moral values simply learned behavior? i'm just waiting to be criticized for being an idiot or pompous as seems to happen often here. your totally right actually. all ideas are subjective. it is only through language taht we are able to communicate ideas, although 99% most ideas are not articulated in language better than the thought... i.e: Am I really explaining my thinking? NO? Are you? No. The best way to express ideas is through art, whether painting, buiulding houses, mowing lawns, singing etc etc... *people miss the big picture while arguing endlessy about particulars. how about we all say "fuck it" , agree to disagaree and just enjoy life for however you beleive it should be enjoyed? me? I like to breath the vapors of a burning plant that is indigeounous to 60% of the planet. I also like to drink the shite of bacteria that got into sugar water. i like to use the pigments of flowers to decorate rock extrusions. Am I bad? How do you define bad? and why exactly is it important to follow YOUR definition of "good"? I don't make yous follow my definition of "good", why should I follow yours? "because your ideas better?" that concept is the root of all inequality in the world...I am no better than you, hence my ideas are no better than yours. .. personally I don't give a fuck...but niggas shouldn't playa hate... its petty so what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted April 22, 2006 Author Share Posted April 22, 2006 Re: the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth the idea of opposing forces of good and evil is just foolish. It makes zero sense. Nothing in nature shows us opposing forces.... if I'm missing something please inlighten me. I'm really starting to think that I'm on candid camera, but here goes for opposing forces in nature... Cold and Hot Up and Down Black and White good (such as giving charity) and Bad (such as killing people) male and female left and right wet and dry slow and fast smart and stupid horizontal and vertical small and large night and day should I go on? And it is He Who spread out the earth, and placed therein firm mountains and rivers and of every kind of fruits He madetwo in pairs (meaning two kinds or it may mean: of two sorts, e.g. black and white, sweet and sour, small and big, etc.) He brings the night as a cover over the day. Verily, in these things, there are proofs, evidences, lessons, signs, etc.) for people who reflect. Quran (Ra'd 13:3) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted April 22, 2006 Author Share Posted April 22, 2006 Re: the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth hebrew in the time of jesus was a ceremonial language much like latin or arabic is today... i'm not sure what you mean by ceremonial language, but if you mean people don't speak it anymore (only in ceremonies) Then rest assured Arabic is far from a ceremonial language. It is the official language of Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Algeria, Morrocco, Yemen, Oman, UAE, Iraq, Pakistan (just to name a few). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted April 22, 2006 Author Share Posted April 22, 2006 Re: the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth I was talking in terms of all religion but if the quran has any miracles (magic) or it makes mention of a god/supreme being' date=' that puts it right along side other religions and into the category of fiction.[/quote'] It must be nice to have everything you don't understand fit into neat little categories, how convenient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man with the Answers Posted April 22, 2006 Share Posted April 22, 2006 Re: the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth i'm not sure what you mean by ceremonial language, but if you mean people don't speak it anymore (only in ceremonies) Then rest assured Arabic is far from a ceremonial language. It is the official language of Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Algeria, Morrocco, Yemen, Oman, UAE, Iraq, Pakistan (just to name a few). "official" lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted April 22, 2006 Author Share Posted April 22, 2006 Re: the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth yes, just like english is the "official" language of America...what's so funny about that lol-man? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man with the Answers Posted April 22, 2006 Share Posted April 22, 2006 Re: the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth but what is "english?" esp american english....I speak boston english and living outside Boston now, I get accused of not "speaking english" bro your not thinking big picture... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted April 22, 2006 Author Share Posted April 22, 2006 Re: the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth your splitting hairs, man...you know what english is...theres different dialects, but Being from Boston, you can still understand people from down south..it's the same language, different expressions or terms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qawee Posted April 22, 2006 Share Posted April 22, 2006 Re: the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth but what is "english?" esp american english....I speak boston english and living outside Boston now, I get accused of not "speaking english" bro your not thinking big picture... You don't make sense. Different regions speak the same language, they just might have different pronounciations, etc.. ex. english in the us and english in england spanish in puerto rico and spanish in mexico arabic in libya and arabic in iraq why am i talking to you about this? time to go to the casino. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smooth bruce Posted April 22, 2006 Share Posted April 22, 2006 Re: the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth It must be nice to have everything you don't understand fit into neat little categories' date=' how convenient.[/quote'] Well I have a PhD in Sociology so unfortunatly for you I understand the concepts of "religion" and its oposing force "reality" very well. You see fiction is something that is yet to be prooven as fact with imperical data. Such as that of the faiths of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke skywalker Posted April 22, 2006 Share Posted April 22, 2006 Re: the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth I'm under the impression that "English" is what people from England speak. Being from the U.S., I speak American, or an Americanized version of English. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted April 22, 2006 Author Share Posted April 22, 2006 Re: the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth Well I have a PhD in Sociology so unfortunatly for you I understand the concepts of "religion" and its oposing force "reality" very well. You see fiction is something that is yet to be prooven as fact with imperical data. Such as that of the faiths of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. ha, ha ... a phd in sociology....refer to the social engineering thread and serve your master. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man with the Answers Posted April 22, 2006 Share Posted April 22, 2006 Re: the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth You don't make sense. Different regions speak the same language, they just might have different pronounciations, etc.. ex. english in the us and english in england spanish in puerto rico and spanish in mexico arabic in libya and arabic in iraq why am i talking to you about this? time to go to the casino. ahhh they actually don't speak arabic in neither liyba nor iraq... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qawee Posted April 22, 2006 Share Posted April 22, 2006 Re: the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth Actually, they speak arabic in both countries. I've met folks from Libya, WHO CURRENTLY LIVE IN LIBYA, Arabic is the language they speak. From the CIA world factbook: Libya Languages: Arabic, Italian, English, all are widely understood in the major cities Iraq Languages: Arabic, Kurdish (official in Kurdish regions), Assyrian, Armenian Check me out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted April 23, 2006 Author Share Posted April 23, 2006 Re: the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth sometimes I wonder what planet some of you are from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man with the Answers Posted April 23, 2006 Share Posted April 23, 2006 Re: the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth uhhh, actually in libya and iraq they speak a descendent dialect that is called "arabic" for islamic solidarity... from wiki: "Colloquial Arabic" is a collective term for the spoken languages or dialects of people throughout the Arab world, which, as mentioned, differ radically from the literary language. The main dialectal division is between the Maghreb dialects and those of the Middle East, followed by that between sedentary dialects and the much more conservative Bedouin dialects. Maltese is the only Arabic dialect which is considered as an official language. Speakers of some of these dialects are unable to converse with speakers of another dialect of Arabic; in particular, while Middle Easterners can generally understand one another, they often have trouble understanding Maghrebis (although the converse is not true, due to the popularity of Middle Eastern—especially Egyptian—films and other media). One factor in the differentiation of the dialects is influence from the languages previously spoken in the areas, which have typically provided a significant number of new words, and have sometimes also influenced pronunciation or word order; however, a much more significant factor for most dialects is, as among Romance languages, retention (or change of meaning) of different classical forms. Thus Iraqi aku, Levantine fīh, and North African kayen all mean "there is", and all come from Arabic (yakūn, fīhi, kā'in respectively), but now sound very different. The major groups are: * Egyptian Arabic * Maghreb Arabic (Algerian Arabic, Moroccan Arabic, Tunisian Arabic, Maltese and western Libyan) * Levantine Arabic (Western Syrian, Lebanese, Palestinian, and western Jordanian, Cypriot Maronite Arabic) * Iraqi Arabic (and Khuzestani Arabic) - with significant differences between the more Arabian-like gilit-dialects of the south and the more conservative qeltu-dialects of the northern cities * Gulf Arabic (Eastern Syrian, Kuwaiti, Saudi Arabian, Persian Gulf coast from Iraq to Oman including much of Saudi Arabia's Eastern Province, and minorities on the other side) Other varieties include: * Ḥassānīya (in Mauritania and western Sahara) * Andalusi Arabic (extinct, but important role in literary history) * Sudanese Arabic (with a dialect continuum into Chad) * Baharna Arabic (Bahrain, Saudi Eastern Province, and Oman) * Hijazi Arabic (west coast of Saudi Arabia, Northern Saudi Arabia, eastern Jordan, Western Iraq) * Najdi Arabic (Najd region of central Saudi Arabia) * Yemeni Arabic (Yemen to southern Saudi Arabia) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted April 23, 2006 Author Share Posted April 23, 2006 Re: the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth ok, good, we proved now that there are many different dialects of Arabic and that it is NOT just a ceremonial language as was previously mentioned....moving right along , now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAR Posted April 23, 2006 Share Posted April 23, 2006 Re: the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth hebrew in the time of jesus was a ceremonial language much like latin or arabic is today... Actually your wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted April 23, 2006 Author Share Posted April 23, 2006 Re: the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth I tried to tell him but he went into something about what language is and I don't think he wants to accept the fact that people speak languages and understand eachother. I think he's challenging that concept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rattleytins Posted April 24, 2006 Share Posted April 24, 2006 Re: the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth if god's real then who or what created god? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man with the Answers Posted April 24, 2006 Share Posted April 24, 2006 Re: the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth Actually your wrong. saying I'm wrong and not backing it up with peer reviewed data is basically like saying I'm right... thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAR Posted April 24, 2006 Share Posted April 24, 2006 Re: the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth Dude I'm Jewish. Israeli/ Jewish history is my hobby, no joke. I learned how to read paleo-hebrew so that I could read the dead sea scrolls in their original form when i went to the israel museum. If you want text try prophets, or the mishna. Talmuld is a bit tricky, since it was written in babylon it was in aramaic, a fusion of hebrew and babylonian. In prophets it recounts the history of ezra and nechemia and the return of the jews to israel. The talmuld explains that ezra tried to make the jews write (ivri) hebrew and speak aramaic instead they chose the ashuri script and to speak hebrew. But in case this isnt good enough for you here's some wiki: The core of the Hebrew Bible (also known as the Tanakh) is the first five books of the Torah, which Judaism and Christianity traditionally hold to have been recorded in the time of Moses 13th century BCE. It is written in Classical Hebrew, and much of its present form is specifically in the dialect of Biblical Hebrew that scholars believe flourished roughly around the 6th century BCE, near the Babylonian Exile. In light of the Torah, Jews have called Hebrew לשון הקודש the "language of Holiness" (Lĕshôn Ha-Kôdesh) since ancient times. Most linguists agree that after the 6th century BCE when the Neo-Babylonian Empire destroyed Jerusalem and exiled its population to Babylon and the Persian Empire allowed them to return, the Biblical Hebrew dialect prevalent in the Bible came to be replaced in daily use by new dialects of Hebrew and a local version of Aramaic. After the 2nd century CE when the Roman Empire exiled the Jewish population of Jerusalem and parts of Roman occupied Judea, Hebrew gradually ceased to be a spoken language roughly around 300 CE, but remained a major literary language during the centuries since. Not only was it used for religion, but for a large variety of purposes. Letters, contracts, commerce, science, philosophy, medicine, poetry, justice codes, all resorted to Hebrew, which thus adapted to various new fields and terminologies by borrowings and inventions. Unfortunatly wikipedia is not 100% correct. Hebrew was still a spoken language after the roman conquest; it seemed phased out because of the unfortunate helenization of some jews and the exile. The language was still used but usually in the privacy of ones home so the babylonians or romans would not suspect a revolution. Hebrew has always been spoken by jews. Because of the interaction with gentiles languages such as yiddish and ladino began to form but hebrew was always spoken. This is one of the reasons jews were such good merchants. No matter what port they were, in as long as there was another jew, they could talk and make deals. Granted in more recent years hebrew is not as widely spoken outside of Israel but it is still hard to find a jew that is somewhat connected to his/her faith that doesnt know even a bit of hebrew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man with the Answers Posted April 24, 2006 Share Posted April 24, 2006 Re: the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth hmm, I read your stuff and read up on hebrew... but i stand by my contention that hebrew was more or less a ceremonial language around the time of jesus and that most folks spoke aramaic then... but what were we originally argue about, I forgot, lol? oh the origin of jesus name.. from wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_and_titles_of_Jesus_in_the_New_Testament Personal name There are hundreds of explanations as to where the name 'Jesus' came from, and even more explanations as to what the name means. What we do know for sure is that it originates from the Hebrew יהושוע [yehoshua`], which is a theophoric name first mentioned within the Biblical tradition in Exodus 17:8 as one of Moses' companions (and, according to tradition, later successor). Breaking the name down, we see that there are two parts: יהו [yahu], the theophoric reference to the deity Yahweh, and the three letter root שוע. Due to disputes over how to render שוע lexically,[1][2][3][4][5] there are a number of generally accepted phrases this combination can translate to: * "Yahweh saves" * "Yahweh is salvation" * "Yahweh is [my] help" * "Yahweh (is) a saving-cry" During the Exile to Babylon where the vernacular language of the Jewish people shifted from Hebrew to Aramaic (Jesus' mother tongue), יהושוע [yehoshua`] underwent a morphological change into the form ישוע [yeshua`]. Firstoff, theophoric references, where in Hebrew would usually come in the form of יה [yah] or יהו [yahu], in some dialects of Aramaic were יא [ya'] or י [ye]. This shortening also allowed for some confusion, as the 3rd person imperfect form of שוא [shua`] (to save) is ישוע, allowing the Aramaic name to take on the meaning "He will save." (This perhaps makes sense of the the angel's discussion with Joseph, in the narrative of Matthew, to name Mary's son "Jesus" because "He will save his people from their sins.")[6] When the New Testament was complied, ישוע [yeshua`] was transliterated into Koine Greek as closely as possible, the result being Ἰησοῦς [iēsous]. Where Greek has no equivalent of the semitic, ש [sheen], it was replaced with a σ [sigma], and a masculine singular ending was added. With the range of dialect that existed in 1st Century Judea (especially around Galilee) scholars believe that the final ע [`ayin] was simply dropped altogether. The earliest useage of this transliteration is actually found in the Septuagint and in writings of Philo of Alexandria[7]. From Greek, Ἰησοῦς [iēsous] moved into Latin with the authorship of the Latin Vulgate. The morphological jump this time was not as large as previous changes between language families. Ἰησοῦς [iēsous] quickly assimilated into Iesus [iesus], where it stood for many centuries. Near the end of Middle English, the vowels changed during the Great Vowel Shift in the 15th century, and the letter 'J' was first distinguished from 'I' by the Frenchman Pierre Ramus in the 16th, but did not become common in Modern English until the 17th century. As such we can see that such works as the first edition of the King James Version of the Bible in 1611 continues to the name with an I. [8] Finally, after thousands of years and several languages later, the name finally came to rest as the Modern English "Jesus" [ˈdʒi.zəs]. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted April 24, 2006 Author Share Posted April 24, 2006 Re: the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth if god's real then who or what created god? Imam Ahmad recorded from Ubayy bin Ka`b that the idolators said to the Prophet , "O Muhammad! Tell us the lineage of your Lord.'' (meaning where did Allah come from) So Allah revealed [قُلْ هُوَ اللَّهُ أَحَدٌ - اللَّهُ الصَّمَدُ - لَمْ يَلِدْ وَلَمْ يُولَدْ - وَلَمْ يَكُنْ لَّهُ كُفُواً أَحَدٌ ] (Say: "He is Allah, The One. The self sufficient master, He does not give birth, nor was He born. And there is none co- equal or comparable to Him.'') He is the Originator of the heavens and the earth. How can He have children when He has no wife and He created all things.) (6:101) meaning, He owns everything and He created everything. So how can He have a peer among His creatures who can be equal to Him. How can something create the creator? How can he have a relative who can resemble Him? Glorified, Exalted and far removed is Allah from such a thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAR Posted April 24, 2006 Share Posted April 24, 2006 Re: the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth hmm, I read your stuff and read up on hebrew... but i stand by my contention that hebrew was more or less a ceremonial language around the time of jesus and that most folks spoke aramaic then... but what were we originally argue about, I forgot, lol? oh the origin of jesus name.. from wiki: During the Exile to Babylon where the vernacular language of the Jewish people shifted from Hebrew to Aramaic (Jesus' mother tongue), יהושוע [yehoshua`] underwent a morphological change into the form ישוע [yeshua`]. I dont agree with this^. The names didnt change even if you want to say the laguage did. Check biblical texts from the time and place. All names are in hebrew. One example would be the Talmud Yirushalmi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smooth bruce Posted April 24, 2006 Share Posted April 24, 2006 Re: the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth Guys I am going to start basing my entire life on a mixture of the novel 'moby dick' and the 1980s movie 'krull' starring at the time a still relatively unknown Liam Neeson. I hope that my fictional beleif system does not conflict with yours and that we can all live in fictional harmony together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted April 26, 2006 Author Share Posted April 26, 2006 Re: the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth Ok, Bruce, i'm just going to watch TV all day and base my opinions on how well it fits into the values of Melrose place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted April 26, 2006 Author Share Posted April 26, 2006 Re: the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth oh, and sorry the message was so short, I had to go put some more plastic into my blender and create another laptop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man with the Answers Posted April 26, 2006 Share Posted April 26, 2006 Re: the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth Guys I am going to start basing my entire life on a mixture of the novel 'moby dick' and the 1980s movie 'krull' starring at the time a still relatively unknown Liam Neeson. I hope that my fictional beleif system does not conflict with yours and that we can all live in fictional harmony together. I can see Krull, that movie was so sad when the star-blade died, but moby dick? wicked homosex ubertones... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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