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discussion on the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth


Dawood
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Thanks for that summary John Birch, I couldn't have said it better myself. Zoroastrianism is much older than Islam.

Also, many of the oldest Mosaic texts were brought by the Jews from the East, which symbols alluded to. Nomadic as they are I'm sure they germinated and spread many ideas before the religions became calcitrant and stagnant. Some even say the entire tribe of Essenes were enlightened masters.

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Originally posted by John Birch@Jan 13 2006, 11:49 PM

about abraham:

 

he was a polytheist, as were the early jews...abraham was influenced by zorastrianism, which was popular in what is now Iraq at the time...

 

 

generations later, when the jews moved to the medditerian area, they were influenced by greek philosophy. between zorastrianism and greek philosophy, judiasm EVOLVED into a monotheistic religion, with their god being the one god.

 

 

Originally the jew's god was one of many gods...

 

 

 

niggas know your history!!!

 

thats a boldfaced lie, John, Abraham was not a polytheist. Thats like saying Tiger woods was the worst Golf player ever. Abraham was KNOWN for monotheism. It's like Coca cola is known for soda. Well, thats what Abraham is to Monotheism. Everyone knows this , John.

 

You say Abraham was a polytheist , but Allah says in the Quran

 

And who turns away from the religion of Ibrâhim (Abraham) (i.e. Islâmic Monotheism) except him who befools himself? Truly, We chose him in this world and verily, in the Hereafter he will be among the righteous. (Al-Baqarah 2:130)

 

And indeed We bestowed aforetime on Ibrâhim (Abraham) his (portion of) guidance, and We were Well-Acquainted with him (as to his Belief in the Oneness of Allâh, etc.). (Al-Anbiya 21:51)

 

Abraham came from a family of pagans and idol worshippers, but he rejected their idols and never believed in them.

 

And (remember) when Ibrâhim (Abraham) said to his father Azar: "Do you take idols as gods ? Verily, I see you and your people in plain error." (Al-An'am 6:74)

 

John, I won't have any more of that nonsense out of you, thanks.

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Originally posted by villain@Jan 14 2006, 02:52 AM

Thanks for that summary John Birch, I couldn't have said it better myself. Zoroastrianism is much older than Islam.

Also, many of the oldest Mosaic texts were brought by the Jews from the East, which symbols alluded to. Nomadic as they are I'm sure they germinated and spread many ideas before the religions became calcitrant and stagnant. Some even say the entire tribe of Essenes were enlightened masters.

 

Somehow, you all keep overlooking the fact that Muhammad is the LAST prophet of Islam, not the first. The first prophet is Adam, the first man. You all keep complaining that I repeat myself so often ,but I have to because The point doesn't get through the first time or the second or......

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There is no scientific basis for "Adam".

Obviously I'm not going to get anywhere if you only get your information from the Koran.

If you were truly as open as you defensively claim to be, you would read the works of theologians, scholars, arhaeologists, palentologists, etc. who can trace the evolution of ideas throughout history with great accuracy.

And i've had just about enough of this...

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Guest imported_El Mamerro
Originally posted by Dawood@Jan 13 2006, 09:53 PM

thats a boldfaced lie, John, Abraham was not a polytheist. Thats like saying Tiger woods was the worst Golf player ever. Abraham was KNOWN for monotheism. It's like Coca cola is known for soda. Well, thats what Abraham is to Monotheism. Everyone knows this , John.

 

 

Yeah, John. EVERYBODY knows this. How dare you claim such an absolutely plausible thing.

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Originally posted by Dawood@Jan 13 2006, 10:27 PM

it's a far stretch to think that I'm imposing my religion on you. If I was imposing my religion on you I'd be at your front door with an army of 600,000 men , tanks, aircraft,

onwardchristiansoldiers.jpg

 

like this guy^^^^

 

I respect your religion, I respect people, I'm just here to discuss the facts , but all people want to do is attack me personally, no problem, I'm not offended, just don't get it twisted. I'm not imposing my religion , by any means, You are still free to worship however you like.

 

600,000 might be a bit off, and I'm pretty sure the only people over there who give two fucks about imposing religion on anyone are the guys blowing themselves up for allah. 72 virgins in heaven, well thats just plain logical. That rosary might be for his own religious beliefs more than forcing Iraqis to become christian...sort of like when people hang them over there rear view mirrors, they are not trying to convert anyone tailgating them.

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Yeah I like how anything that contradicts of challenge dawwod's narrow, limted unquestioning vision of the world is derided as "nonsense" and "lies"...we at least let you make your arguments except that you make no argument except to repeat and use circular logic...

 

 

Theres a word for that... bigotry

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Originally posted by John Birch@Jan 14 2006, 06:50 AM

Yeah I like how anything that contradicts of challenge dawwod's narrow, limted unquestioning vision of the world is derided as "nonsense" and "lies"...we at least let you make your arguments except that you make no argument except to repeat and use circular logic...

 

 

Theres a word for that... bigotry

 

John, when you say something that contradicts what the creator of the heavens and earth says, bringing absolutely no proof at all. Then you come back and call me a bigot because I stick to what is proven.

 

I brought you the quran. A book that a billion people in this world beleive is the word of God, you brought me nothing,but your own words. How then can anyone take what you say as being true, or even

consider it? Your claim about Abraham is baseless. just a conjecture.

Just Another attack against Islam. If you question my so called"vision of the world" At least bring proof! Otherwise, no doubt ,I'm going to reject it.

 

And if you obey most of those on earth, they will mislead you far away from Allâh's Path. They follow nothing but conjectures, and they do nothing but lie. (Al-An'am 6:116)

 

And most of them follow nothing but conjecture. Certainly, conjecture can be of no avail against the truth. Surely, Allâh is All-Aware of what they do. (Yunus 10:36)

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AFRICA, the continent was around for a lot longer than islam. they had religions in africa long before islam. remember RA and all them? how can every religion be a derivative of islam if that is so?

 

i'm all about you believing in what works for you man. but you come off as a zealot and seem like you're recruiting for islam like the muslim leaders in this world act any better than the christian leaders. power corrupts no matter what god you "worship".

 

(edit for spelling)

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your not imposing daewoo? .... please.... by you asuming that your religion is the one and only you are imposing your religion on me not only do you critizize other religions but you bash them .. if you respect them dont bash them thats all ...besides you may not be comming to my house with a bazooka but your suicide friends maybee hung quran from the planes that they crashed into the world trade centers who knows... like i said maybee your not doing it but your friends are sure trying.

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so explain to me why exactly the quran is the word of god? wheres your proof there? there is no proof...

 

 

and do you even know what the word bigot means? perhaps you need to buy a dictionary..but oh wait, a dictionary is all conjecture unless the specific edition is mentioned in the quran..I forgot...

 

 

 

and everything I say isn't just conjecture... I'm citing thousands of years of knowledge and research...all you do is keep quoting some murderous pedeophile who preached hatred and intolerance...a billion people don't suscibe to islam btw...they were born in islamic cultures which became that way through military and economic conquest...(but I know as you read that you have you hands over your ears yelling "la lal la la la la"...

 

 

 

are you so afraid of knowledge and hearing anything that disagrees with your narrow world view that you respond with anger, violence and spite?

 

 

thats petty shit nigga..not a good refelction on the creator if you ask me...

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Oh yeah, Look at all the Anger, Violence and spite in my posts. theyre filled with Anger and violence and spite.

 

Just, inmpregnated with it.

 

I'm done dealing with peoples delusions here,

 

 

 

Verily, those who disbelieve, it is the same to them whether you (O Muhammad Peace be upon him ) warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe. (Al-Baqarah 2:6)

 

 

Verily, those who disbelieved, and died while they were disbelievers, the (whole) earth full of gold will not be accepted from anyone of them even if they offered it as a ransom. For them is a painful torment and they will have no helpers. (Aali Imran 3:91)

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Originally posted by Dawood@Jan 15 2006, 12:23 AM

Oh yeah, Look at all the Anger, Violence and spite in my posts. theyre filled with Anger and violence and spite.

 

Just, inmpregnated with it.

 

 

 

 

Dawood

I'm smiling crazy at you, Jan 11 2006, 05:13 AM

 

 

Group: Member

Posts: 1,158

Member ID: 18,093

Joined: 9-May 02

 

 

John, You know what? If I knew you, and the internet was real life. i would've probably clocked you by now. Not that I don't think your ok, Your fine with me, I just wouldv'e cold cocked you just once and then when you opened your eyes and shook it off I wouldve smiled at you like, "Hey, man, You ok? My , bad that was a freak accident." I would smile at you with this crazy looking smile that only a guy that wants to punch you and smile at you later knows how to do. Ha, ha, you feel me? (swinging my fist at you.) You would never really know If I was going to do it again, or when , because I would always smile at you crazy when you said something I did'nt like.

 

 

 

 

case in point^^^^ rebuttal?

or were you drunk when you typed this pm? hmmm?

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Part of what it means to grow is to be able to accept criticism when you are wrong and learn from your mistakes. But if people hide behind their religion and resort to the steady supply of curses found in such holy scripture for unbelievers, then people do not grow any more. The faith that sustains becomes the faith that contains you.

I have no problem with any belief system until it becomes a demogouge for political pogroms, fascistic nationalism or theism, intolerance and bigotry. Not that I am accusing Dawood of any of this. I hadn't come here with the intention of undermining Dawoods faith, just his challenge of others faiths.

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Originally posted by John Birch+Jan 15 2006, 02:50 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (John Birch - Jan 15 2006, 02:50 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Dawood@Jan 15 2006, 12:23 AM

Oh yeah, Look at all the Anger, Violence and spite in my posts. theyre filled with Anger and violence and spite.

 

Just, inmpregnated with it.

 

 

 

 

Dawood

I'm smiling crazy at you, Jan 11 2006, 05:13 AM

 

 

Group: Member

Posts: 1,158

Member ID: 18,093

Joined: 9-May 02

 

 

John, You know what? If I knew you, and the internet was real life. i would've probably clocked you by now. Not that I don't think your ok, Your fine with me, I just wouldv'e cold cocked you just once and then when you opened your eyes and shook it off I wouldve smiled at you like, "Hey, man, You ok? My , bad that was a freak accident." I would smile at you with this crazy looking smile that only a guy that wants to punch you and smile at you later knows how to do. Ha, ha, you feel me? (swinging my fist at you.) You would never really know If I was going to do it again, or when , because I would always smile at you crazy when you said something I did'nt like.

 

 

 

 

case in point^^^^ rebuttal?

or were you drunk when you typed this pm? hmmm?

[/b]

 

No, I don't drink, But I'm still smiling crazy at you. I looks like Im gonna have to send Onch over afterall........

 

 

 

 

 

Don't be silly John.....can't even Joke with someone these days....

 

It's a shame.

Oh, well,

I'm still done talking about religion. And I'm amazed that people here keep accusing me of disrespecting and challenging peoples religions and this is the source of all the displeasure for me here.

Then when people come here and slander Islam and the prophets

of Islam, Nobody says, "Hey, don't slander peoples religious beleifs"

But , just because I insist that there is only 1 God worthy of worship, now All of a sudden, I bashed every religion in the world.

 

This is bigotry in it's truest form.

 

whatever, I'm done

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See what I'm saying, Anyone can say anything about Islam, but when It comes to Christianity and Hinduism and whatever other Man/animal worshippers, Everyone is UP IN ARMS!!

OH! HE's CHALLENGING RELIGIONS!

The only reason people feel like they can say whateve they want about Islam is because of your governments dehumanisation of muslims in the media, so they can kill muslims indiscriminately by making them seem inhuman to people. Wake up. Be fair. Don't attack me for what you call challenging peoples faiths and then when people come here and attack Islam DIRECTLY with insults and lies against Allah and his messenger, everyone is quiet about that. And just for the record, Islam denounces terrorism like Sept.11 and the london Bombings. I've mentioned on here many times dispraise for Osama Ibn Laaden and people like him. But people still use this as an excuse to attack Islam. I'm not surprised anyway Allah says,

 

O you who believe! Take not as your advisors, consultants, protectors, helpers, friends, those outside your religion (pagans, Jews, Christians, and hypocrites) since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. Indeed We have made plain to you the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses) if you understand. (Aali Imran 3:118)

 

Allah speaks the truth

and he is not the author of confusion

 

 

 

**also,for the record I would like to end this thread (or not be a part of it) if it can't be a source of education and a benefit to people. That was my initial intention in starting this thread. To benefit people with what little information I have,and to take benefit from what others may have to share, but unfortunately , this thread has just been a place to disrespect eachothers beleifs, (myself included) Some people just don't understand that it is possible to disagree with peoples beleifs while at the same time not disrespecting them and their religions (or lack thereof). It is possible to be respectful to people, while not agreeing with what they beleive. I've tried to be respectful to people in this thread for 17 pages, not always agreeing with people, but at least,(most of the time) not being nasty and disrespectful. I guess when people run out of things to say, things just get ugly, and when that happens, I don't want any part of it.

 

Peace be on those who follow the guidance.

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Guest imported_El Mamerro

I don't know where you've been the past few years, but Christianity is constantly getting bashed around these parts.

 

There is an inherent problem when you create a thread to discuss the nature of God, but then proceed to only want to talk about your specific view of Him. People on this thread have constantly tried (sometimes respectful, sometimes not) to introduce new concepts and ideas beyond Islam, and you always focus on dismissing them as not being worthy of being part of the discussion, because they are simpy wrong.

 

As I've said before, I believe in God as well, but for the sake of discussion and mental exercise I've offered alternative ideas that I find intriguing, regardless of their compatibility with my beliefs. If your particular faith reinforces fear of God to the extent that you feel uncomfortable discussing issues that cast doubt on Him, then maybe you're not the best person to start and lead such a thread.

 

The appropiate mindset to really be able to come out with something from this thread is not "one of us is right", or "all of us are right in someway". You have to approach the subject as if everyone, yourself included, is wrong. THAT'S how knowledge is gained.

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"The only reason people feel like they can say whateve they want about Islam is because of your governments dehumanisation of muslims in the media, so they can kill muslims indiscriminately by making them seem inhuman to people. Wake up. Be fair. Don't attack me for what you call challenging peoples faiths and then when people come here and attack Islam DIRECTLY with insults and lies against Allah and his messenger, everyone is quiet about that. And just for the record, Islam denounces terrorism like Sept.11 and the london Bombings. I've mentioned on here many times dispraise for Osama Ibn Laaden and people like him. But people still use this as an excuse to attack Islam. I'm not surprised anyway Allah says,"

 

I'd love to believe this, but where are the Fatahs (might be the wrong term but you know what I mean) against Bin Laden or Al Queda? Why are there no large protests against Al Queda's actions, except one in Jordan only after they blew up fellow Jordanians? Why has Bin Laden and other al Queda people been allowed to live in Pakistani communities without anyone ratting them out, if they are so widely despised? Why does every government that rules by Sharia dehumanize their population (without any help from the media since they only get state run propaganda like Al Jazeera), such as treating woman like dogs, allowing honor killings, and being generally barbaric? I don't doubt that many Muslims hate Bin Laden or Islamic extremism, but there has been NO widespread movement against him within the Muslim community, or even more than a few publicly speaking about him being wrong. You even gave a somewhat decent example yourself, when someone pointed out a flaw in the religion of peace you are ready to start choking motherfuckers. I respect that, but it goes against the religion your trying to explain. The problem might lie in the Qu'ran being the exact words of God when in Arabic (unlike the torah or bible). That means when he says all infidels must pay a tax or die, thats what people are going to do. And it is illegal to kill fellow muslims, but if the Muslims have violated a narrow interpretation of the Koran it is your duty to kill them.

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weather you are muslim christian or any other religion it dosnt matter who is right and who is wrong . why not accept the other mens faith. why do you dissmiss my belives as if they are wrong, only becasue i dont have the same belives as you. sure im not saying christians are perfect because the catholic church does alot of things that dont go with the word of god. but you have to remember that the pope and the preists are only the human REPRESENTATION of god on earth at least to the catholics. their mistakes dont make my god any less holy. or they are not a direct reflection of what god is or wants. same is said for the muslims. so Osama goes and kills in the name of allah... i belive thats not what allah wanted. but to other religions they see it as if osama was imposing allahs will on the west. mankind has always rellied on faith and this type of discussions wont go without hate and anger. why ? because for years religion is a mare excuse for war. if everybody jsut minded their own bizz and respected other peoples belives. maybe we would be a better race.

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Stereotype,

If youre looking for fatwas against Bin laden and his ideology, I could find a million for you. If your looking for the whole Islamic world to rise up against The bin Ladens of this world then youre asking for a lot, becuase most of the Islamic world agrees with him (in a lot of ways) especially in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Thats where the difference lies, Yes, there is a such thing as Jihad, But is'nt America waging a Jihad on Iraq and Afhganistan right now? The thing is, Jihad (in Islam) has conditions and has to have with it a benefit. These murderous people you're seeing on TV are not waging a legitimate Jihad in the eyes of the majority of Islamic Scholars. The only legitimate Jihad there is now is a defensive Jihad against aggression. Not an offensive Jihad where these people hijack planes and blow up buildings and cut off peoples heads. That is straight up terrorism. But now, lets get into why people think it is ok to do these atrocities. (not that I'm defending these acts of terrorism, because they hurt my family and myself more than thay hurt you because we are muslims and when somebody blows up the tube in London it makes life difficult on us even more than anyone else.(except the actual victims.) But , to move on...WHy would someone actually beleive that it is ok to blow up a train in London? or fly planes into bulidings in New York?

Well, that lies in #1 ignorance and #2 desperation. Just like when 911 hit, muslims were being mobbed in the street and Mosques were being burned down. Is that right? of course not, but when Human emotion takes over, thats all people know. Same thing with these terrorists. They feel like the only way to drive what they see as aggression and oppression out of their lands is to fight back. It's a human reaction, Then,they try to use religion to justify their emotional actions. I know I'm speaking in general terms here, and there are a lot of details being left out, but you get the point. Hopefully.

Muslims aren't inherently violent and hateful people. We're not taught to be that way either. Islam is a religion of submission and peace, but also, muslims are not cattle, and we won't be slaughtered without a fight.

Are the muslims the ones invading lands with aircraft and tanks? Is it muslims who are dropping "whiskey pete" on villages burning women and children? Is it muslims who are forcing a way of life on people who are resisting it with everything they have? Is it the muslims who are funding,

aiding and supporting this global oppression that a certain nazi-type individual is imposing on the world? Why then blame the muslims who just want to be free to live the way they see fit?

And again, I know I don't speak for everybody who calls themself a muslim because nowadays even the muslims are not practicing Islam correctly. But during the life of the prophet Muhammad, Non Muslims used to flee the barabarism of other people to come live under the rule of the muslims becuase of how just they were. In this day in age, it's backwards, Why? because even the muslims have left off the guidance sent by their Lord. Thats the truth....

I won't sit here and defend the actions of the muslims when theyre wrong , Or my own wrong actions for that matter, but Islam. The true Islam that was practiced by the prophet and his companions and those who followed them in righteousness, I will defend until I hit my grave, If Allah wills.

 

And El mamerro, I agree with you, I might not be the best person to lead a thread like this. I didn't know I was leading the thread. I thought I was participating in it like everyone else is. And I never felt uncomfortabe discussing issues that cast doubt on God. No problem, I don't doubt my faith. also you said

 

Originally posted by El Mamerro@Jan 15 2006, 05:46 PM

There is an inherent problem when you create a thread to discuss the nature of God, but then proceed to only want to talk about your specific view of Him. People on this thread have constantly tried (sometimes respectful, sometimes not) to introduce new concepts and ideas beyond Islam, and you always focus on dismissing them as not being worthy of being part of the discussion, because they are simpy wrong.

 

I don't think it is an inherent problem when I beleive in something and proceed to specifically talk about it. Why is that a problem? Everyone gets a chance to speak his or her mind here. I can't just "dismiss" peoples ideas here. I don't have that administrative authority to dismiss peoples ideas. I don't have to agree with everybody to be a part of this discussion do I? I present my ideas, you present yours, theres no censorship or dismissal going on. I'm not the thread dictator where I say "YOUR POST IS NOT WORTHY, BE GONE....OFF TO THE DUNGEON" and then your idea is cast away to be eaten by the crocidiles. If I think something is wrong, then I have the right to discuss why I think something is wrong in a respectful way, and you have that same right.

And as for my beleifs, well, the muslim has a thing called his "aqeedah" It's an arabic word for "beleif" that comes from a root word "aqadah" which means "something that is firmly tied" or "something that cannot be untied" "fixed" "cemented".

Thats what a strong muslims belief is like. Cemented and tied down. So it will never leave him. I don't talk about God in a manner that could imply that he might not exist or that he might be a Cow or a Man or a Rat or a Toad because my Aqeedah won't allow it.

It's like a man who is protective over his daughter. (Like all men should be.) If he sees some slick joker trying to run game on his daughter, His proctective instinct will kick in and he won't allow it. Well, It's the same with Allah, when people say things about Allah that go against what I know to be correct in the innermost depths of my heart and intellect, then my protective instinct kicks in. If thats wrong, then let me be wrong and be judged by the true judge later. And The creator of the heavens and earth can judge between us concerning our differences.

 

 

 

P.S just a few fatwas real quick for stereotype

 

go to http://fatwaonline.com/ then go to the categories,then worship section, then go to the section about Jihad and then where it says suicide bombings etc.

(sorry it wouldn't let me link the exact page.)

this is an excellent site though.

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