John Birch Posted September 14, 2005 Share Posted September 14, 2005 I'm not being facetious, but if you can answer any of that without using religion or any islamic meta-vocabulary ( see Rorty's essay "Irony and Post-Modernism") then good for you. Ultimately a discussion of religion becomes a semantical argument that resorts to circular reasoning..." bro, you missed my challenge... btw my cat controls me. I don't think I have dominion over him... So that negates your whole argument eh? Go Boston!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumPuncher Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 unfortunately we cant debat/compare on the 'net using just our 'feelings'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casekonly Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 yeah, feelings are great, but angry feelings towards people who believe what they believe is just plain dumb. intellectual conversations are wonderous. they add to our intelligence. bah, whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnomeToys Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 Honestly I think the only time 12oz added to my intelligence was one night last year when I was high on painkillers and cheap booze and I started looking at the nightly makros posts and they made perfect sense as replies to the threads they were in and suddenly the entirety of existence made more sense for a minute and then I passed out and forgot all of it in the true spirit of america. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casekonly Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 Originally posted by Biggus Dickus@Sep 15 2005, 01:53 AM Honestly I think the only time 12oz added to my intelligence was one night last year when I was high on painkillers and cheap booze and I started looking at the nightly makros posts and they made perfect sense as replies to the threads they were in and suddenly the entirety of existence made more sense for a minute and then I passed out and forgot all of it in the true spirit of america. Quoted post eh, makros always made sense. i've taken enough acid to ensure that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted September 16, 2005 Author Share Posted September 16, 2005 Originally posted by Biggus Dickus@Sep 14 2005, 10:00 PM I created the universe in the image of my anus. Quoted post This is why God created Hell ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted September 16, 2005 Author Share Posted September 16, 2005 Originally posted by John Birch@Sep 14 2005, 11:27 PM I'm not being facetious, but if you can answer any of that without using religion or any islamic meta-vocabulary ( see Rorty's essay "Irony and Post-Modernism") then good for you. Ultimately a discussion of religion becomes a semantical argument that resorts to circular reasoning..." bro, you missed my challenge... btw my cat controls me. I don't think I have dominion over him... So that negates your whole argument eh? Go Boston!!!! Quoted post 9 lives.now..cat slave!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnomeToys Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 Originally posted by Dawood@Sep 15 2005, 09:49 PM This is why God created Hell ..... Quoted post If you think we're not all in hell right now you've got another thing coming when you die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Birch Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 the concept of hell and satan was invented by catholic monks based on nordic mythology. It was actually made famous by dante and later milton... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted September 17, 2005 Author Share Posted September 17, 2005 LOL, most of you are TOO uneducated about religion to seriously post things here about the origins of things. How could the concept of Hell and Satan possibly have been invented by catholic monks when catholocism comes from/ is a sect of Christianity, In the Bible , there were many references to hell and satan. And even before that the Torah, the book of the JEws if full of reference s to Hell and Satan. The teachings of MOses, Abraham, Jesus, Ishaac , Jacob, Noah, Ishmael, etc etc, were full of references to Hell and Satan, Yet all of these prophets were before Catholicism. I swear, people just talk to say that they said something. It's too funny, And Biggus, If you think this is Hell I feel Bad for you. If you don't turn to Allah, then this is the only enjoyment you will ever have. And what's prepared for the disbeleivers is far worse that anything you can imagine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Birch Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 Too uneducated about religion? Bro, I was studying religion, metaphysics, cosmoslogy, anthropology, history etc. while you were still being a thug and getting chased around by Nancy. Just because you read about islam while in jail doesn't sudenly make you an expert in all these fields. You know there is more to human culture and human history than whats written in what we call the Koran or Bible. I respect that your interested in metaphysics; its a noble pursuit, but it seems a bit hypocritical that you denigrate others peoples contributions because they don't agree with your narrow world view. If you understood this, then Maybe then you could understand why most of the world looks down on adherants of the Abrahamic relgions... bro read more about science, history, culture, religion, art etc etc and see how they are all interconnected, and read all this stuff OBJECTIVELY and read it with the understanding that all knowledge is RELATIVE, colored by the person writing it and also by the person reading it. I thought this was a thread about the concept of BEING, not one to spout ones religious propaganda. To get back to the concepts of satan and Hell, did you watch the documentary on Discovery Channel the other night about the history of Satan? wikipedia has a good overview of both concepts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted September 18, 2005 Author Share Posted September 18, 2005 Originally posted by John Birch@Sep 17 2005, 09:33 PM Too uneducated about religion? Bro, I was studying religion, metaphysics, cosmoslogy, anthropology, history etc. while you were still being a thug and getting chased around by Nancy. Just because you read about islam while in jail doesn't sudenly make you an expert in all these fields. You know there is more to human culture and human history than whats written in what we call the Koran or Bible. I respect that your interested in metaphysics; its a noble pursuit, but it seems a bit hypocritical that you denigrate others peoples contributions because they don't agree with your narrow world view. If you understood this, then Maybe then you could understand why most of the world looks down on adherants of the Abrahamic relgions... bro read more about science, history, culture, religion, art etc etc and see how they are all interconnected, and read all this stuff OBJECTIVELY and read it with the understanding that all knowledge is RELATIVE, colored by the person writing it and also by the person reading it. I thought this was a thread about the concept of BEING, not one to spout ones religious propaganda. To get back to the concepts of satan and Hell, did you watch the documentary on Discovery Channel the other night about the history of Satan? wikipedia has a good overview of both concepts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell Quoted post What makes you think I wasn't studying while I was "still being a thug and getting chased around by Nancy." And just to set the record straight... I became muslim years AFTER I went to jail. Not while I was in Jail, As a matter of fact, I had no desire to be religious at that time. In fact, I had no desire to be religious even after I accepted Islam, I still don't consider myself overly religious, I have just been presented with the truth and I accepted it and act upon it to the best of my ability and invite others to it when I have the opportunity. May Allah guide you, Ameen And also, correct me if I am wrong, But It's my understanding that most of the world IS part of what you call "Abrahamic religion" Although ,I don't see christianity and Judaism as being Abrahamic. How can Abraham be a Christian or a Jew when he was an Upright Muslim? Upon the religion of Worshipping one true God. Anyway, It's funny that people keep telling me I have a narrow view of the world and that I am attacking others contributions and so forth, But still NOBODY has actually adressed any of the actual Issues that I speak about in my posts. Namely, (as this thread is titled) The nature of the creator of the heavens and earth. And as far as there being more to human history then what's in the Quran or the Bible, then Yes, I agree, But thats not what we were discussing. The Quran is not a history book per se (there is plenty of History in it) It is mainly a book of Morals, admonitions, reminders, and plain guidance concerning what a human needs in order to gain closeness and nearness to his creator. As for History, Art, ect. well , thats another topic. I understand that all knowledge is relative, etc. etc. but, there are some things in life that are solid, That can't be mis-interpreted and mis-construed. Like for instance, would you say, that "water is only wet depending upon the person touching it?" or fire is only hot if you believe that it's hot? No, of course that would be irrational to say something like that, So then, If we can agree on waters wetness and fires Hotness , then why can't we agree on God's uniqueness? And if we can agree that God is unique in all of his qualities and aspects , then Mr. Birch, We're on the right track! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Birch Posted September 18, 2005 Share Posted September 18, 2005 I didn't mean to fuck with you about the jail shit and Nancy etc. I just find alot of people find God after they go through traumatic stuff or they find a void in their lives. I not attributing that to you, thats in your own heart, but I think its good to know one's motivations to what they say... I say this because I have been always interestted in Metaphysics etc, but from what you would call a more philosophical/scientific persepective. I attribute this to watching Johnny Carson late at night when i was very young and finding out Santa Claus didn't exist. Perhaps you can attribute a bias to that persepctive too, but I've always found that whether I discuss this subject with people from Islam, born-again Christian, old Catholic nuns, Morman missionaries riding my local bus to the projects, gay priests or nihilistic athetist punk rockers or drunk old Boston cops, I feel I'm always banging my head against the wall... But your right, I never addressed the title of this thread. but please, before I attempt to address it, please define what you mean by: The nature of (the) creator (of) (the) heavens and earth Specifically nature, creator, heavens, earth. If we're on the same playing field then maybe we can have a discussion... Now I gotta drink some PBR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted September 19, 2005 Author Share Posted September 19, 2005 Originally posted by John Birch@Sep 18 2005, 04:50 AM But your right, I never addressed the title of this thread. but please, before I attempt to address it, please define what you mean by: The nature of (the) creator (of) (the) heavens and earth Specifically nature, creator, heavens, earth. If we're on the same playing field then maybe we can have a discussion... Now I gotta drink some PBR Quoted post Thats cool, I don't get offended with stuff like that...i.e. : Nancy, Jail. etc. No offense taken, just shows you know me somewhat. (Did we used to hang out back in the day?) Anyway, What I mean by ... NATURE...the attributes or qualities, Nature as in.....Specific description of something (in this case GOD) CREATOR...the one who creates from nothing, not one who creates or fashions something from elements that already exist, but when I say creator here , I mean a divine creator who neither slumber ,nor sleep overtakes him and he can never be fatigued in preserving his creation. i.e : God is the creator and we are his creation and nothing from his creation possess the ability to create something from nothing. This is what I mean when I say creator. HEAVENS...When I say heavens, I mean the ever expanding Universe and everything that exists within it. EARTH...when I say earth , I mean "e-a-r-t-h" The third planet from the sun, at a distance of approximately 149 million kilometers (92.96 million miles), an axial rotation period of 23 hours 56.07 minutes, an average radius of 6,378 kilometers (3,963 miles), and a mass of approximately 5.974 × 1024 kilograms (1.317 × 1025 pounds). Ok, like suffolk downs! we're off! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumPuncher Posted September 19, 2005 Share Posted September 19, 2005 Originally posted by Dawood@Sep 18 2005, 10:20 PM HEAVENS...When I say heavens, I mean the ever expanding Universe and everything that exists within it. if the heavens are ever expanding, then what are they expanding into? What's past the outer edge of the universe? Is it an area where no God exists? If God is limitless, then how can his dominion come to an end? How can the universe, and by that, God's Kingdom, 'expand' into new territory? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted September 20, 2005 Author Share Posted September 20, 2005 As for his dominion coming to an end, well I beleive Everything has a beginning and an end except God. He is limitless, yes, but the creation has limits. As for the creation, namely , the universe, expanding into new territory and what is past the outer edge of the universe, then as far as I'm concerned , thats an excellent question that I'm sure none of us has the answer to. I read in the quran that the universe is constantly expanding, which of course is in line with current scientific theories on the universe, but beyond that??? wow. "The heaven, We have built it with power. Verily, We are expanding it.” (Quran 51:47) i edited it, because I originally said I was going to do some research on the whole outer limits of the universe thing and then I left from infront of my computer to do something else and I thought..."who the hell do I think I am to say I am going to research the outer limits of the universe!!!" Don't ask me questions like that anymore...LOL Now I keep getting these stupid error messages... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Birch Posted September 22, 2005 Share Posted September 22, 2005 a nice respite from arguing with toys on the bean thread... anyway, my big question is...who invented god? and why? and why is it the "he" gender? btw, I was reading about islam on wikiepdia. it turns out mohhamed had a cat named muezza... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted September 22, 2005 Author Share Posted September 22, 2005 Originally posted by John Birch@Sep 22 2005, 02:33 AM a nice respite from arguing with toys on the bean thread... anyway, my big question is...who invented god? and why? and why is it the "he" gender? btw, I was reading about islam on wikiepdia. it turns out mohhamed had a cat named muezza... Quoted post Oh, Damn, Man, ......Stop playing, You know God is the creator, How can he be invented by anything if he is the alpha and the omega? And as for calling God he...well I call him "he" for lack of a better term in english , but God has no particular gender as far as I'm concerned because he says in the quran " there is nothing co equal or comparable unto Allah". And we understand that God cannot be bound by things like gender, these are human constraints. P.S. I never heard of his cat, then again, Wikiepedia never met Muhammad. If I wanted to learn about Islam, I would go to a site run by muslims , and see what THEY say, rather than going to the non muslim sites and reading questionable materials. check out: http://www.salaf.com and go to the What is Islam and How Do I Become a Muslim section. ( not that I assume you want to be a muslim, but the What is Islam section is Good) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Birch Posted September 22, 2005 Share Posted September 22, 2005 bro, you totally dodged the question... who created god? and even more importantly, why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted September 22, 2005 Author Share Posted September 22, 2005 Originally posted by John Birch@Sep 22 2005, 03:50 AM bro, you totally dodged the question... who created god? and even more importantly, why? Quoted post Man, If I was standing next to you when you said that, I would take cover. for real....Don't ask me that again. Seriously John , we can't continue this discussion if you insist on asking questions like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsuifuku Posted September 22, 2005 Share Posted September 22, 2005 I was sitting here one day, with my girlfriend, and we were looking at that fatwa site whos name should be "Ask a Sheikh" and it was udd dumb. One cat asked if it was permissable to go to a Buhddist cremation ceremony if he was invited, and the Sheikh said NO ITS EVIL (that was a paraphrase, but he did use the word evil) Not to mention its more than once reference to women as inferior Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_El Mamerro Posted September 22, 2005 Share Posted September 22, 2005 Originally posted by Dawood@Sep 21 2005, 11:33 PM Seriously John , we can't continue this discussion if you insist on asking questions like that. Quoted post Yeah, seriously John, don't ask questions that are absolutely relevant and essential to the topic. We might actually get somewhere in the discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted September 22, 2005 Author Share Posted September 22, 2005 How can a person answer that question?(no offense to the questioner) That has to be the worlds most arrogant and irrelevent question. I already said that God is the creator who has no begginning and no end, only the creation has a starting and end point, Not the creator. SOme of you may disagree and thats fine, but thats what dialogue is about , right? So, me just being honest , I personally won't tread down the path that question implies. What it implies is that there is something greater than God who created him and answering that question is like trying to fit the earth into a coffee cup. As for going to a Buddhist cremation....I don't know...I wouldn't go, If they are worshipping False gods there, I would stay away. What's so hard to understand about that? if a person is dedicating his life to Worshipping God alone without associating partners with him and he is trying to purify himself from all idol worship why would he go to an Idol worshipping ceremony? SOunds logical to me. And as for Women being inferior , this is absolutely not true. Women are measured in Gods sight the same as men, according to their piety and God consciousness. But women and men are not the same in all respects. For instance, Women bear children, we can't . Does that make men superior over them? Of course not. People always try to imply that islam veiws women as inferior, but this is not the case at all. The only verse in the quran referring to the status of men over women is where Allah tells men that they have a degree of responsibility over women. Meaning that is is our responsibility to feed and clothe them when we feed and clothe ourselves. And to maintain them and live with them in kindness. Thats our responsibility as men. Most non muslim men I know treat women like some kind of disposable play thing and discard them when theyre bored of them and you have the audacity to try and attack our way of life that liberates women from being veiwed as meat. In Islam the woman is like a pearl, To be protected, respected and honored.In my almost 6 years being a muslim all I have ever been taught or read about concerning women is to treat them as if they were your mothers, daughters or sisters, because they are mothers, daughters and sisters to sombody. And I know now after I said that youll want to google some sicko from a middle eastern country who threw scolding grease on a woman who committed adultery or something like that and say "Hey look at Islam's respect for women" But let me say , before you do that, that Islam is FREE from that type of thing. And if a person that is muslim does something crazy, does that convict the whole way of life For someones own actions?, If so Then I want christianity to hit the fan for Timmy Mcveigh too. I really didn't want to go into all this here, because all we are really trying to do is talk about the nature of the creator, So lets not get off into side talk,but, If you think that question about who created God is so relevent then why don't you answer it and let's see what kind of intellegent response you come up with. And if you are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a chapter like it and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allâh, if you are truthful. (Al-Baqarah 2:23) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrJackDaniels Posted September 22, 2005 Share Posted September 22, 2005 this may off on the current stream of the thread, but dawood its really annoying me how you are all on the idea that allah is THE god, or thing to worship... many many many people in the world believe in other things (ie. chrsitianities idea of God or Him). surely there are more people in the world who dont believe in allah than those who do. maybe, you and all the muslims in the world are wrong... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsuifuku Posted September 22, 2005 Share Posted September 22, 2005 Dawood: here is an excerpt http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=q...&QR=20677&dgn=4 It means the man is in charge of the woman; he is her leader, the ruler over her who disciplines her if she goes astray. “because Allaah has made one of them to excel the other” means, because men are superior to woman, and a man is better than a woman. Hence Prophethood was given only to men, as is the role of caliph, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “No people will ever prosper who appoint a woman in charge of them.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Birch Posted September 22, 2005 Share Posted September 22, 2005 "How can a person answer that question?(no offense to the questioner) That has to be the worlds most arrogant and irrelevent question. I already said that God is the creator who has no begginning and no end, only the creation has a starting and end point, Not the creator. SOme of you may disagree and thats fine, but thats what dialogue is about , right? So, me just being honest , I personally won't tread down the path that question implies. What it implies is that there is something greater than God who created him and answering that question is like trying to fit the earth into a coffee cup." It's called philosophy...whose purpose is find the answer to that question. So your basically saying, following your logic, that philosophy and religion are irrelevant and arrogant, hence islam, being a religion, is likewise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted September 23, 2005 Author Share Posted September 23, 2005 Originally posted by MrJackDaniels@Sep 22 2005, 05:13 PM this may off on the current stream of the thread, but dawood its really annoying me how you are all on the idea that allah is THE god, or thing to worship... many many many people in the world believe in other things (ie. chrsitianities idea of God or Him). surely there are more people in the world who dont believe in allah than those who do. maybe, you and all the muslims in the world are wrong... Quoted post I'm still waiting for someone to show me another religion other than Islam that worships the creator and doesn't worship parts of his creation. And John,, Islam is not a philosophy based on the whims of men, Its a revealed way of life. There is no way to answer a question like that. You said philosophy, but philosophy can't answer a question like that either. If philosophy can answer it then , i'd like to hear the proof, Otherwise , I don't swim in the murky waters. tsuifuku: this is another topic, because there is too many variables to discuss. i personally am not qualified (islamically) to speak about this issue in detail without fear of making mistakes in my explanation. Whenever a person talks concerning Islam he should have sure knowledge and I honestly could give my opinion , but I don't have an opinion when it comes to Islam. I take from the authentic texts and the understanding of the prophets concerning Islam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Birch Posted September 24, 2005 Share Posted September 24, 2005 "And John,, Islam is not a philosophy based on the whims of men, Its a revealed way of life. There is no way to answer a question like that. You said philosophy, but philosophy can't answer a question like that either. If philosophy can answer it then , i'd like to hear the proof, Otherwise , I don't swim in the murky waters." Islam is not a philosophy based on the whims of men? Wow, that really clears things up for me, now I'm gonna go order a steak pizza from dominoes. but f'real, there are no answers, only hypotheses, observations and theories that lead to new hypothesises, observations and theories. and btw, why is a certain way of life better than another? some niggas like OE , some niggas like Steel Reserve...we all die anyway. Me?, I prefer light beer, fat asians and the Red Sox...does that make me a sinner because it isn't addressed in the quran? and oh yeah, if your a muslim matyr who lives and dies in South America, do you get 40 llamas instead of 40 sheep when you die? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iloveboxcars Posted September 24, 2005 Share Posted September 24, 2005 i like this topic because dawood dances around almost every question posed to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted September 24, 2005 Author Share Posted September 24, 2005 Whomever Allah guides , none can misguide and whomever Allah misguides , none can guide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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