discussion on the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth

[Dawood]

Originally posted by casekonly@Aug 10 2005, 04:54 PM

god did take responsibility for being a bad god in one part of the bible....the flood. remember after it was all over and god swore that he would never do that again?

 

that should be the defining moment in biblical history where we are shown that god can be as bad as it is good.

 

anyhow, i don't really play into that whole bible story thing. very fantastic sounding. beasts with seven heads, etc. all analgous for political happenings and such. some take it seriously...

Quoted post

 

In Islam , there is no such thing as a Bad God when referring to Allah, because, even with the story of Noah, it is seen as a punishment for the people who disbeleived in God and rebelled against Noah.

 

for example, the Quran says....And it was said: "O earth! Swallow up your water, and O sky! Withhold (your rain)." And the water was diminished (made to subside) and the Decree (of Allâh) was fulfilled (i.e. the destruction of the people of Nûh (noah). And it (the ship) rested on Mount Judi, and it was said: "Away with the people who are Zalimûn (polytheists and wrong-doing)!" (Hud 11:44)

 

so it was a punishment for them, God has no regret....he is God, he sees all and hears all and knows everything before it happens, How can he regret?

[Dawood]

Originally posted by El Mamerro@Aug 10 2005, 01:58 PM

Anyways, very basic mathematical rules, such as Wolfram's Rule 30, have shown how incredible complexity, on the level of eyeballs and entire living beings and systems, can arise from the most basic applications of "is" and "not is" (one and zero in binary code) without any outside influence whatsoever.

Quoted post

 

Ok, uh, say wha?

[SteveAustin]

I'm reading 'Under the Banner of Heaven' right now. I had huge issues with the Mormon religion before I started reading this book...now I'm just in utter shock.

 

What people will do under blind faith and gods will is utterly amazing.

[RumPuncher]

Originally posted by Salafi_Zahrah@Aug 10 2005, 02:47 PM

...I don't agree with my ahkee (brother) Dawood starting this thread cause I feel that the

original subject should be left to the people of knowledge aka the scholars or the students of knowledge.

 

BULLSHIT

BULLSHIT

BULLSHIT

 

 

Are the children of creation not entitled to learn and discuss faith?

 

Do you have to have some 'degree' from a human institution to be 'knowledgeable?'

 

Is the understanding of faith a priviledge for a chosen few scholars?

 

Should we blindly follow the 'scholars' despite all their human flaws?

 

Shouldn't every person make a decision for themselves based on personal study?

[ERIZENO]

time to take it back and bring back retro religions .....

 

Zeus worship ..... That would be ill!!!!!!

 

I can’t buy this shit ... in the end, do what it takes to be a good person and let that be it.

 

Dawood seems to be so unwavering in his views this seems more like a lesson in Islam than a discussion on God in general. A bunch of us are sharing our views to later have each one challenged by the Islamic view.

[Dawood]

Originally posted by RumPuncher@Aug 11 2005, 03:39 PM

 

Are the children of creation not entitled to learn and discuss faith?

 

Do you have to have some 'degree' from a human institution to be 'knowledgeable?'

 

Is the understanding of faith a priviledge for a chosen few scholars?

 

Should we blindly follow the 'scholars' despite all their human flaws?

 

Shouldn't every person make a decision for themselves based on personal study?

Quoted post

 

Absolutely, we are entitled to learn and discuss faith. There is nothing in the religion in Islam that prohibits common (non scholarly people) from discussing God. Islam is not a religion where we have a heirarchy. The only thing that makes us superior over another is our knowledge and action upon that knowledge. Not our money, nor lineage or race. So it is definately knowledge that sets us apart. Possibly what the sister is referring to is a principle that knowledge proceeds speech and action. That before we speak about something we should have knowledge of that affair. Someone might take that principle out of context and think that the scholars are the only ones

qualified to speak about issues of the religion, but In reality, Anyone who has knowledge of something is qualified to speak about it according to his ability and not beyond that.

 

Rumpuncher In Islam , there is no blind following of our scholars. We beleive in the Quran as being the literal word of God and the sayings and actions etc. of the prophet as being another form of revelation. And that is a whole other topic concerning why a person beleives that the Quran is the literal word of God. Of course a decision like that will , like you said, be based on a personal study. In my opinion, scholars do great work in (not interpreting) but explaining to us how the prophet Muhammad explained the revelation, How his companions understood it from him and how they practiced it in their lives. Therefore we stick to the same guidance that they were upon then.

 

May Allah bless the sister for her good intentions. Ameen

[RumPuncher]

I see your points, and they are valid, but knoledge comes from actions

(the act of reading, the act of discussion). To say that only those without knoledge shouldn't speak is a catch22.

 

clearly if you wanted this thread to be an open and frank discussion of

religious beliefs (as opposed to a soap box to spout off about your

particular faith, as many have accused you of doing) then you would expect

people without formal religious education to speak. I just cant believe that

God's will is the property of those who claim it, be it with degrees or lineage

rights, and not of the everyday people who choose to open their eyes.

 

 

 

< my main point is in reference to Salafi_Zahrah's comment >

[Dawood]

..

[casekonly]

Originally posted by RumPuncher@Aug 10 2005, 01:03 PM

'spare the rod, spoil the child'

 

people need to learn that the books were written by men.

Most ancient cultures have similar stories of a great flood,

and it only makes sence that future tellings (ancient to us

but hundreds of years after the events) would be changed

to reflect the religious times and agenda of the authors.

 

there's a babylonia version of the flood story where evil

creatures hid on the roof of the arc and were not destoryed.

Quoted post

 

 

no doubt. flood myths exist in every part of the world.

all the way from babylonia to the aztecs.

 

and yes, the bible was written and interpretted by many men.

it's funny that man saw fit to incorporate his laws into gods laws.

that's, imho, where it got fucked up. gods laws are totally logical.

totally in conjunction with natural human behaviour. mans laws,

however....well, different story. don't forget that there were many parts of the bible that were left out. tons of other stories that we may never know.

 

dawood: i'm not really saying god was being a bad god, what i'm saying is that he expressed regret for flooding the world and destroying civilization.

 

 

anyhow, i saw a special on the history channel ( i love that channel)

that said that it is improbably that noah loaded up every species on the planet...more likely that it was 'the land', which means surrounding land.

 

there is archaeological evidence that there was a flood in the holy land, but not all over the earth. i often wonder if turkey will ever let people check out mount ararat for that ark like structure restnig on the side of it.

 

 

[RumPuncher]

crashed UFO?

 

maybe Noah was an alien who took all the animals up into the sky

while the planet was being destoryed and rebuilt. If they all traveled

at light speed in a big loop, they wouldn't even notice the time difference.

Maybe humans and Dinos DID exist together but the dinos where too big for the ship.

Maybe that same ship is coming back and the Raelians are right.

 

DUN DUUN DUUUNNNNN!

[imported_dowmagik]

gods laws are totally logical.

totally in conjunction with natural human behaviour. mans laws,

however....well, different story. don't forget that there were many parts of the bible that were left out. tons of other stories that we may never know.

 

 

Quoted post

what are god's laws?

[RumPuncher]

God's laws.... that's tricky to explain, but easy to understand.

 

 

If it could only be so simple.

[Salafi_Zahrah]

Originally posted by ERIZENO@Aug 11 2005, 11:46 AM

Dawood seems to be so unwavering in his views this seems more like a lesson in Islam than a discussion on God in general. A bunch of us are sharing our views to later have each one challenged by the Islamic view.

Quoted post

 

I think that is a very important statement.

 

Ahkee Dawood since we are not surpose to PM or email one another I will do it here cause it addresses more than you ahkee. First may Allah reward you for your good intentions. You told me that this thread was strictly for dawah (call to Allah) so when I came to the forum and looked at the thread you are calling it a discussion. If it is for stickly da'wah why not tell it as it is called the thread Dawah (Call to Allah) and if they accept invitation Alhamdulillah if they don't Alhamdulillah, only Allah guides. To me this thread was deceiving to people thinking it was actually a discussion.

 

And when CACashRefund said "How about no" to this "discussion" you told him to "Ok , then step aside and say nothing..." ahkee how are we going to call anyone to anything with statements like at? "Whosoever calls to Allâh without knowledge, then such a person will cause greater harm than good - as is evident. If this calling is established upon ignorance and built upon emotion and passion, then it is not permissible." (Ruling)

 

And for me correcting you in public about bid'ah ahkee that is permissible.(Ruling)

 

And RumPuncher if one doesn't have the knowledge about a subject then he should not speak but listen. Cause 1. he'll probably make himself look a fool and 2. he'll be misguiding others. In Islam it is not a condition upon the dâ’î (the one calling) to attain a great amount of knowledge, but the condition is that one must have knowledge of what one is calling to. (Ruling)

 

This is my last commit on this Crossfire section and only sticking posting my art before I fall into kuffar. Cause it's seems to me that we both have a whole lot to learn about dawah. This is my advice to you ahkee and please don't take it the wrong way, As sallamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu.

[Dawood]

rediculous

[RumPuncher]

Originally posted by Salafi_Zahrah@Aug 12 2005, 07:28 PM

Ahkee Dawood since we are not surpose to PM or email one another

 

please tell me it's not for religious resons that you are not supposed to email the one you call 'brother'.

 

 

rediculous indeed.

[Dawood]

This thread was not started to turn into a discussion about

Islamic etiquettes between men and women.

Lets remember the original topic is the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth. Whatever sister Zahrah's opinions are, (may Allah bless her) I think we are still here to talk about who and what is God and what is his attributes. The original topic has been bamboozled and hoodwinked. I apologize to anyone who feels I am challenging their veiws unjustly. I only want to exchange ideas with the intention of stimulating contemplative thought about our Lord, hopefully leading to a good outcome for all of us.

 

And sister Zahrah...Wa alaikum salaaam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu...

Remember the basics of the tree, before you split off into the branches. Hikmah (wisdom) In dawah. Tawheed Tawheed Tawheed.

from Thalathatul Usool.... Know, May Allah have mercy upon you . It is obligatory to have knowledge of 4 things. Knowledge of Allah , knowledge of the prophet, knowledge of the deen , with the proofs. then action upon that , (wa dawahtu elaihe) calling to that, and paitently perservering any harms that come to you on that way. It is wrong for you to assume that I don't have knowledge of what I am speaking about. You don't know me or my level of understanding to insinuate that I am ignorant of the basic understanding of Tawheed (uniqueness and oneness of God).

If you can point out any errors I have made concerning tawheed specifically, please show me , I will be happy to correct it. If you show me any errors I have made in my etiquettes or character specifically, I will be happy to correct that also. But please do not post general rulings attempting to apply them to a specific incident. This is not the place to split hairs with me, We are discussing whether the creator of the worlds is above the seven heavens or in a toilet bowl as some have suggested.

We have to learn how to prioritize.

 

And (remember) when Mûsa (Moses) said to his people: "Verily, Allâh commands you that you slaughter a cow." They said, "Do you make fun of us?" He said, "I take Allâh's Refuge from being among Al-Jâhilûn (the ignorants or the foolish)." (Al-Baqarah 2:67)

[SF1]

Originally posted by Dawood@Aug 13 2005, 01:56 AM

Tawheed Tawheed Tawheed. 

Quoted post

 

 

Is that an Islamic Law firm?

[GnomeToys]

Having seen everything and been everyone, this thread is boring. Then again, so is life.

[Dawood]

Originally posted by SF1+Aug 13 2005, 06:55 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SF1 - Aug 13 2005, 06:55 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Dawood@Aug 13 2005, 01:56 AM

Tawheed Tawheed Tawheed. 

Quoted post

 

 

Is that an Islamic Law firm?

Quoted post

[/b]

 

 

LOL, Tawheed is an arabic word meaning The uniqueness and oneness of the creator in his

 

1.) Lordship (that Allah is the only provider of the rain, the only one who causes life etc.)

 

2.) Worship (that Allah is the only one we worship , or call upon for help , or beleive has any part of divinity.)

 

3.)Names and Attributes (that we don't say anything about Allah except that he said it about himself in the Quran or that he informed his prophet about it.)

 

that is a summerized version of Tawheed.

And the scholars say to know a thing that you should know its opposite. And the opposite of Tawheed is SHIRK. (which means to associate partners in worship with Allah , or to attribute Lordship to Allahs creation. In short , or in english...Shirk is Idolatry, But it has many manefestations.

 

You get what you ask for SF. (and sometimes a little more!)

[Dawood]

bump...

 

God is still not everywhere. (except that his knowledge and ability to control are everywhere) but, God, physically, definately does not hang out in toilets, get your mind out of the gutter.

 

 

No, I won't let it die.

[RumPuncher]

If I were God (just saying)...

 

I'd rather hang out in toilets than in churches, mosques and synagoges.

At least poo hasn't murdered millions of people IN MY NAME.

[Dawood]

Fortunately, You're not God and he still does'nt hang out in toilets and those who murder people unjustly in his name will be dealt with Justly, whether they call themselves Jews, Christians or Muslims.

[H. Lecter]

Religion is imaginary lines in the sand...

There is one power and that power can not be imagined,

if it were, it would not be above everything imaginable...

and that's what god is..

Chance, The unknown, the uncontrolable, that which transends the tangible and all that can be envisioned or grasped..

 

 

Quit making text references...

Same story, different characters.

[Juan Fuentes]

THERE IS NO GOD BUT ALLAH AND MUHAMMED IS HIS LAST PROPHET.

 

dont discuss it . study and learn.

[Dawood]

bump

[John Birch]

1. plate tectonics cause tsunamis

 

2. soil mechanics cause landslides

 

3. wind and water temprature cause hurricanes

 

4. agricultural-based societies build cities

 

5. languages evolve, constantly

 

6. monotheism was invented by man, as was the concept of god. hence my cat doesn't discuss god with me. Zoroastrianism and Greek philosophy were the earliest known philosophies that had monotheism as a basis. these two schools influenced nomadic tribes in the arabia desert as well as other trade-based cultures. One of the semetic tribes were the jews, who had a concept of one god (but their own), influened by zorastrianism. when they moved to the Medditeraian, they were influenced later by greek philosophy.

 

Christainity is a jewish cult and islam was invented by another band of nomaic tribes in the arabia desert, who were influenced by christian/jewish monotheism and tribal folk paganry.

 

7. mohhamed wasn't zipped up to heaven from jersalem

 

 

8.humans have been around for over 140,00 years. why the late apperance by god then? and why only to the arabs when there's thousands of human cultures?

 

9. if god eixst, why does it only reveal itself to humans? theres millions of millions of species. Do dogs believe in god? Did dinosaurs? sharks have been around for millions of years. Hence they must beleive in god or else they would be wiped out for being non-beleivers?

 

 

 

I'm not being facetious, but if you can answer any of that without using religion or any islamic meta-vocabulary ( see Rorty's essay "Irony and Post-Modernism") then good for you. Ultimately a discussion of religion because a semantical argument that resorts to circular reasoning...

 

sorry for the spelling, I don't feel like going back and editing...

 

 

remember the best way to Prove your argument is to try your damn-dest to disprove it.

[Dawood]

Ok, Mr. Birch were from the same camp site, right?

cool meng, Dirty Bean rep, rep...

 

Anyway, Cats and Dogs were not given the same reasoning and intellegence humans were endowed with to understand and thus make intellegent decisions to beleive in a higher being or other decisions to disbeleive in a higher being. Thats why they depend upon us, and God has placed us in charge of them. And as for other animals that roam freely, we hunt them and kill them efficiently, not vice versa for the most part.

 

You asked about humans being around for over 140,000 years..... the correct Islamic beleif is that Islam did not start with the advent of Muhammad. Most Islamic scholars agree that there were more than 120,000 prophets sent to mankind, and some say even up over 200,000 prophets, starting at the beginning of time.

 

Your question about why does God only revaeal himself to Humans.

He reveals himself to the Angels, the Jinn and the Humans.

The Angels are an intellegent creation that are created to glorify, obey and worship Allah. They don't have a free will to either obey or disobey like the Humans and the Jinns do.

The Jinns are a creation (without getting into too much detail) that live in sort of a parallel universe with us. They are among as, The best thing i can relate them to in this culture would be like Genies, But , some people call them Ghosts, They are really Jinn, a seperate creation, not Humans who died and are "haunting" like ghosts or whatever.

for more info on that . check here.. http://www.allaahuakbar.net/barelwiyat/essay_on_jinns.htm

 

And , your statement, "islam was invented by another band of nomaic tribes in the arabia desert, who were influenced by christian/jewish monotheism and tribal folk paganry."

 

That is a perfect example of what christians and Jews would have you beleive about Islam, In truth, Muhammad came to establish True Monotheism again in that area, and to call people away from the pre- Islamic Tribal Pagan practices.

 

Islam is different from all ways of life or Beleif systems in one simple way, and this one simple thing is what makes a person a Muslim essentially. That is the absence of Idolatry in Islam. Every religion other than Islam has Idolatry in it's beliefs as well as it's practices. We can highlight the obvious Idols like the Buddha statue or the Hindu "cow" or their many Idols like the 12 armed elephant or whatever....?? But lets move on to the more sublime Idols such as what Christians do with Jesus. They take a prophet , essentially , a man , and deify him and worship him along with God and to Us , this is Idolatry. If Muslims did this to Muhammad, it would be the same thing. Ok, Now, Lets move on to an even MORE Sublime Idolatry, The Idolatry of the JEws, first, lets talk about God and his attributes, His attributes are all of the loftiest, most exhalted of attributes, Meaning, that nobody is ALL SEEING except God, Nobody is ALL HEARING except God right? ect. ect. I could go on and on about Gods attributes, But If a person denys parts of Gods attributes , like for Instance they say that God is not all powerful and that he can be overpowered by something, then , what they did with that statement was they (in their minds) stripped God of his Godlyness , right? so in essence , the one they worship is not even God, because they beleive that God is some kind of punk who can lose in an armwrestling match.

 

So the most important thing , even before prayer and fasting, and hajj and charity is what? #1 ... to Know God...and to Know that none has the right to be worshipped but him....and that is true monotheism, and you will NEVER, I repeat NEVER find another way of life or beleif that gives the creator of the heavens and earth his due respect (in how we beleive about him) except Islam, because every other way of life makes God like a human or like a part of his creation in some way, or strippes him of his true qualities. And my challenge to you, Is to Dis-prove THAT !

[RumPuncher]

^ so does he exist in the toilet or what?

 

 

 

<sorry..... had to lighten things up>

[GnomeToys]

I created the universe in the image of my anus.

[casekonly]

i think, no matter what people believe in, whether it's creationism, evolution, alien seeds, whatever...we should all respect the fact that others probably don't see it the same way.

 

having a forum like this to discuss things should be as open minded as the people who read it should be.

 

don't let your emotions get confused with your intellect.