discussion on the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth

Dawood · August 10, 2005

Originally posted by RumPuncher@Aug 9 2005, 07:01 PM
But then again.... find me an evangelical who really cares about other religions.

I swear they're just as bad as Dawood. (haha... just making sure you were reading this)

Quoted post

There are no other religions.....

What do you mean as bad as Dawood?

he-he-he

Dawood · August 10, 2005

Originally posted by ERIZENO@Aug 9 2005, 04:07 PM

With the way things in US pop culture have been rolling on since 9/11, being in touch with God has been more of a cool thing to do.

I know this doesn’t apply to all people of faith, but too many people abuse their own faith in God when things don’t go right for them. Weak people abuse this the most, when something difficult comes their way it’s the fault of "Gods Plan" ... when they could take responsibility for their bad actions or decide to view things with a stronger sense control then go on to grow and learn from them.

Some one said to me the other day “A Jewish carpenter is my boss” to be a smart ass I came back with “Jesus is your scapegoat, take some responsibility for yourself”

The “scapegoat on the couch” was just a play on the elephant in the living room that is being ignored.

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Yeah, I agree with you about that, too many people try to blame "God's plan" on things that go wrong. But I beleive that whatever good comes to you it is from God and whatever bad comes to you it is from what our own hands have put forth, (meaning we reep what we sow.) Hard times are a blessing too (even if we don't see it that way during the hard times) But how could we appreciate good times if we never experienced bad ones? Also hardship makes us more resilient and wiser and it is sometimes helpful in putting us back on the right track.

Dawood · August 10, 2005

Originally posted by Stereotype V.001@Aug 9 2005, 05:58 AM
Why is it that people are only offended that "Dawood" is trying to stuff his religious views down everyones' throats here, yet he has been doing the same with almost every other post he has made with very little complaints?

And, to add to the actual topic at hand, religion becomes flawed when using man as a intermediary, who is inherently flawed (ie organized religion). This brings along literal interpretations with it, that have resulted in the deaths of countless people and decimation of various native people's cultures in the name of "God." Even today, it's a major recruiting tool for getting people to blow themselves up.

I agree with what alot of people have said on here, God is everything around us. Even doo doo.

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Stereotype, why is it that when someone is "quote unquote" religious. You accuse them of stuffing their religion down your throat , but when I "as a "religious" person" am Bombarded by a non religious Ideology

Somehow nobody mentions that you are stuffing your non religious ideology down MY throat.

So to bring us all back to reality, this is a discussion, not me trying to convert you stereotype. I enjoy talking about God (as you probably guessed by now), thats why I started this thread. To discuss God, If you don't want to be a muslim, thats fine, It's your business, But I think I have the right to talk about God in a thread about The creator of the heavens and earth, don't you think? Everyone complained about me posting about God in other threads, ok so , I started this one and since I started this thread it is the only one in crossfire jumping....kinda ironic huh? Anyway, I like all the activity, It's a good sign that people are thinking about God and not just trying to get crunked up all day er'y day.

As far as god being everywhere....lets come to an Agreement on this ...that none has the right to worshipped except the One true God and................ that God IS indeed everywhere, In his knowledge and sight and hearing and encompassing everything with his ability and his will. Also, does anyone beleive that God is the creator? Do we beleive that God is the greatest? When I say greatest , I mean greatest in size , knowledge, abilities, etc. over all of his creation.

Now if God were IN his creation physically, wouldn't that be limiting his greatness a bit? I mean are we trying to put limits on God by fitting him into our small universe? God is greater than that.

he is with us and encompasses us, with his knowledge, sight, hearing and ability, but would I say that he sees the way we see or hears the way we hear , NO WAY, Why? If God were truly unique? then how could our seeing and hearing be like his seeing and hearing? And if God were just poop and some other decomposing stuff, then what makes him such a great God?

lets give God his props people?

August 10, 2005

So, wait, if God CAN'T be in his creation, wouldn't THAT be a limit?

You still haven't addressed the issue of how decomposing and fecal material, two things that are perfectly good and beneficial to the world, are somehow "imperfect". You're ascribing God a value of perfection based on your limited human perception of the world, which contradicts basically everything you're saying. Because YOU consider something imperfect because it smells funny or looks weird does not make it so.

August 10, 2005

Points to consider about the Programmer God idea:

The principle of computational equivalence suggests that every single process that occurs in the universe can be simulated and mapped perfectly through computation (using binary code). If there was a computer large enough and powerful enough to simulate the entire universe, there would be absolutely no difference whatsoever between our real universe and the simulated one, the two would be perfectly interchangeable.

God is the Machine, Wired article. Excerpt:

His (Frank Tipler) argument runs roughly as follows: As the universe collapses upon itself in the last minutes of time, the final space-time singularity creates (just once) infinite energy and computing capacity. In other words, as the giant universal computer keeps shrinking in size, its power increases to the point at which it can simulate precisely the entire historical universe, past and present and possible. He calls this state the Omega Point. It is a computational space that can resurrect "from the dead" all the minds and bodies that have ever lived. The weird thing is that Tipler was an atheist when he developed this theory and discounted as mere "coincidence" the parallels between his ideas and the Christian doctrine of Heavenly Resurrection. Since then, he says, science has convinced him that the two may be identical.

Dawood · August 10, 2005

Originally posted by El Mamerro@Aug 10 2005, 02:27 AM
So, wait, if God CAN'T be in his creation, wouldn't THAT be a limit?

You still haven't addressed the issue of how decomposing and fecal material, two things that are perfectly good and beneficial to the world, are somehow "imperfect". You're ascribing God a value of perfection based on your limited human perception of the world, which contradicts basically everything you're saying. Because YOU consider something imperfect because it smells funny or looks weird does not make it so.

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The creation is limited, God Is limitless. So to attempt to squeeze God into his creation would be an ateempt to lower God's majesty. There is nothing that God is not capable of , except that God does not do things that do not befit his majesty.

And as far as decomposing fecal material, yes it is perfectly beneficial as it relates to the earth and growth and insects but do you pray to a pile of crap? If you do , I feel bad for you and seek refuge in the most high, creator of everything that exists from whatever hit your brain.

Dawood · August 10, 2005

The point that I am trying to drive home is that EVERY single belief system on the face of this earth offers worship to something from the creation (like rats and men and "everything" and cows and statues and trees and whatever else people ascribe Godliness to) EXCEPT Islam.

There is no religion or beleif system or way of life or whatever you want to call it that singles out worship for God alone , EXCEPT ISLAM , If someone wants to tell me otherwise , I will gladly show you how they are not worshipping

the true God and how what they are worshipping is a created thing and not a creator.

Sorry to be so blunt and "unforgiving" but It seems like it would be obvious to most people that if someone beleives that God is a Cow and runs after it picking up the blessed cow dung wiping it on his face for blessings , then this person has lost his mind. Am I the Idiot here?

iloveboxcars · August 10, 2005

I believed in god when I was younger. I went to church for the

better half of my juvenile career. Even after my parents stopped

going I kept going by myself. After awhile someone or

something made me step back for a second and take a look at

religion. I realized I never had actually analyzed my thoughts

on god, Catholicism and other religions. I noticed that I have

just been blindly following something and I've never really

questioned it. I started noticing flaws. At first I wrote them off

as human error while still following the religion. Then I just kept

questioning it. over and over and over again I would go over

certain aspects and I kept finding more and more flaws. Soon I

decided to believe in god but not to assign myself to a religion

and just live my life as best I could. I decided if that wasn't

good enough for god then that's his bad. (because I'm

awesome company, obviously)... Awhile after that I just

completely slipped out of it. I decided god MIGHT exist, but I

don't believe he does. I will never say he does not exist

because there will never be any proof either way.

i typed a lot more than i wanted to.

edit*** and I think this whole transition period was me just slowly

allowing myself to accept that there is a strong possibility that I will not

be going anywhere after I die.

Dawood · August 10, 2005

I guess when they teach you that God is a man who comes to earth and gets beat up and spit on by Jews and then tacked on a post and died and came back to life so that we can eat candy and paint eggs , thats what happens. Doubt and eventually total rejection.

Then of course they make their holy men saints after they die and tell you to pray to them because they are chillin with God and can put you down with the holy team if you pray to the saints. (nothing against catholics)

Just another form of Idol worship.

And for me , the proof of the existance of God is (among many things) the orderliness of our universe, even something as simple as the mechanism that we can an eyeball. How can that be without a creator? There is not a camera that exists with all of our technology that can focus on something faster than our own eyes. Imagine the complexity of our universe and all of it's components and how the orbits are perfectly aligned and designed. How did this happen without a super designer? We cant even create the wing of a fly from nothing, nevermind all of what is around us....How could there not be a creator?

iloveboxcars · August 10, 2005

^because things adapt and develop things they need in order to survive?

i was christian, by the way. i dont remember what "side-project" of christianity i was.

i meant to type out christianity, not catholicism.

iloveboxcars · August 10, 2005

and all you see are the things that worked. all the things that didnt work died off or exploded or ran into each other.

bodice_ripper · August 10, 2005

Originally posted by Dawood@Aug 10 2005, 03:21 AM

There is no religion or beleif system or way of life or whatever you want to call it that singles out worship for God alone , EXCEPT ISLAM , If someone wants to tell me otherwise , I will gladly show you how they are not worshipping

the true God and how what they are worshipping is a created thing and not a creator.

Quoted post

Oh well gee, when you put it that way. Suppose I'll just pack up anything I've thought through for myself, quit fucking women and convert......

Face it, however you feel on the inside, on the outside your just another pain-in-the-arse god-botherer. Nothing you have asserted is Convert Now, Ask Me How material. Shouldn't you be shouting this crap on a bus somewhere....?

bodice_ripper · August 10, 2005

Actually, what is the story here? Did you wake up one morning and decide it was your mission for god to log on to a graffiti website and convert writers to Islam? If so, have you ever mentioned this plan out loud to anyone? Did they laugh?

imagine if I decided my views on ethics were so correct that I simply MUST log on to a crop circles forum and convice people. after all, I am saving their souls......

August 10, 2005

Eh, you're either dancing around the point or simply not understanding what I'm trying to say. "Do you pray to a pile of crap?" What the hell? I don't think this is gonna lead anywhere. Saying fecal material, as part of God's creation and therefore a part of God (notice I'm saying a part OF God, not the other way around), is not akin to praying to a piece of crap.

Anyways, very basic mathematical rules, such as Wolfram's Rule 30, have shown how incredible complexity, on the level of eyeballs and entire living beings and systems, can arise from the most basic applications of "is" and "not is" (one and zero in binary code) without any outside influence whatsoever. Funny how when Moses asked God "Who are you?", His answer was "Am".

RumPuncher · August 10, 2005

Originally posted by Dawood@Aug 9 2005, 09:14 PM
Also , Jesus was not God, He was a prophet and a messenger.

I agree with you there. In a sence I believe in the Islamic point that God

has had MANY prophets and messengers over the years. I believe that

Jesus was one of them. As far as being 'the one' I'm not so sure.

Now here's the question: Muslims believe that Muhammed was the FINAL messenger. Correct?

They also believe that he wrote the final, complete version of God's word. The Qu'ran right?

Clearly there are people who speak God's truth but are not messengers,

but when someone discovers another piece of the language of creation,

like DNA or the solar orbit, hasn't God revealed a small piece of the infinate

to them and thus made them a 'messenger' of God?

I just have a hard time believeing that all the rules about worship and

personal conduct were devised a thousand years ago and aren't updated.

I'm not talking about things like gay-marrige, but using goats as currency?

Equal rights for women? Can you honestly say that the 'final' book of God's truth is still relevant?

RumPuncher · August 10, 2005

Originally posted by Dawood@Aug 9 2005, 11:21 PM
There is no religion or beleif system or way of life or whatever you want to call it that singles out worship for God alone , EXCEPT ISLAM , If someone wants to tell me otherwise , I will gladly show you how they are not worshipping

the true God and how what they are worshipping is a created thing and not a creator.

so why pray towards Mecca, a finate place created by men, when Allah exists in every direction?

casekonly · August 10, 2005

Originally posted by El Mamerro@Aug 9 2005, 10:48 PM
Points to consider about the Programmer God idea:

The principle of computational equivalence suggests that every single process that occurs in the universe can be simulated and mapped perfectly through computation (using binary code). If there was a computer large enough and powerful enough to simulate the entire universe, there would be absolutely no difference whatsoever between our real universe and the simulated one, the two would be perfectly interchangeable.

God is the Machine, Wired article. Excerpt:

His (Frank Tipler) argument runs roughly as follows: As the universe collapses upon itself in the last minutes of time, the final space-time singularity creates (just once) infinite energy and computing capacity. In other words, as the giant universal computer keeps shrinking in size, its power increases to the point at which it can simulate precisely the entire historical universe, past and present and possible. He calls this state the Omega Point. It is a computational space that can resurrect "from the dead" all the minds and bodies that have ever lived. The weird thing is that Tipler was an atheist when he developed this theory and discounted as mere "coincidence" the parallels between his ideas and the Christian doctrine of Heavenly Resurrection. Since then, he says, science has convinced him that the two may be identical.

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i dig this.

ERIZENO · August 10, 2005

Originally posted by Dawood+Aug 10 2005, 01:26 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dawood - Aug 10 2005, 01:26 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-ERIZENO@Aug 9 2005, 04:07 PM

With the way things in US pop culture have been rolling on since 9/11, being in touch with God has been more of a cool thing to do.

I know this doesn’t apply to all people of faith, but too many people abuse their own faith in God when things don’t go right for them. Weak people abuse this the most, when something difficult comes their way it’s the fault of "Gods Plan" ... when they could take responsibility for their bad actions or decide to view things with a stronger sense control then go on to grow and learn from them.

Some one said to me the other day “A Jewish carpenter is my boss” to be a smart ass I came back with “Jesus is your scapegoat, take some responsibility for yourself”

The “scapegoat on the couch” was just a play on the elephant in the living room that is being ignored.

Quoted post

Yeah, I agree with you about that, too many people try to blame "God's plan" on things that go wrong. But I beleive that whatever good comes to you it is from God and whatever bad comes to you it is from what our own hands have put forth, (meaning we reep what we sow.) Hard times are a blessing too (even if we don't see it that way during the hard times) But how could we appreciate good times if we never experienced bad ones? Also hardship makes us more resilient and wiser and it is sometimes helpful in putting us back on the right track.

Quoted post

[/b]

to me good and evil both exist in god, I wont blame all bad on myself and thank god for all good in my life. That is a bullshit thought to me.

If there is a God who exists as a being (I doubt it, but like boxcars I wont say no) It ( too big to be a he or she .. but she would be more likely if it were that limited) was how all the energy of the universe came about, but is not sitting back watching things go on. Or playing a game with its oppisite in evil for the souls of people on earth, too human of a thought.

Excuse my ignorance, is there an evil or devil in Islam ??

casekonly · August 10, 2005

god did take responsibility for being a bad god in one part of the bible....the flood. remember after it was all over and god swore that he would never do that again?

that should be the defining moment in biblical history where we are shown that god can be as bad as it is good.

anyhow, i don't really play into that whole bible story thing. very fantastic sounding. beasts with seven heads, etc. all analgous for political happenings and such. some take it seriously...

RumPuncher · August 10, 2005

'spare the rod, spoil the child'

people need to learn that the books were written by men.

Most ancient cultures have similar stories of a great flood,

and it only makes sence that future tellings (ancient to us

but hundreds of years after the events) would be changed

to reflect the religious times and agenda of the authors.

there's a babylonia version of the flood story where evil

creatures hid on the roof of the arc and were not destoryed.

SteveAustin · August 10, 2005

Originally posted by RumPuncher@Aug 10 2005, 11:03 AM
people need to learn that the books were written by men.

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ding...ding...ding...and THEN interpreted by different men.

RumPuncher · August 10, 2005

At least in the Hebrew religion the interpretation is PART of the active practice.

All day long scholars debate points in the Talmud and update the Torah.

( I believe... sorry if I've got that backwards ).

it's better than the evangelicals just waving the bible around and shaking their fists.

ERIZENO · August 10, 2005

I keep that shit in mind for every decision i make about my faith in God, views of history and anything else it applies to.

Man is flawed and wants to hide that fact when it comes to Religious text. It's so stupid that people dont want to accept that fact because its so scary to see it for the truth that we just dont know, and till we die we wont know.

Salafi_Zahrah · August 10, 2005

Originally posted by RumPuncher@Aug 10 2005, 11:23 AM
Now here's the question: Muslims believe that Muhammed was the FINAL messenger. Correct?

They also believe that he wrote the final, complete version of God's word. The Qu'ran right?

Quoted post

No, Muslims do not believe Muhammad (pbuh) authored the Qur'an, the Qur'an was revealed to Muhammad (saws) through the angle Jibraa`eel aka Gabriel (AS). It was revealed piecemeal to the Prophet Muhammad (saws) over a period of twenty-three years and some months.. But yes eventually the it had to be written for future generations.

I just wanted to correct that but I'm not here to debate cause I don't agree with my ahkee (brother) Dawood starting this thread cause I feel that the original subject should be left to the people of knowledge aka the scholars or the students of knowledge. But because I disagree with him on the way he did this doesn't mean we don't share the same belief.

Peace

P.S. to Dawood, As sallamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu

RumPuncher · August 10, 2005

We're just dealing with semantics now.

It wasn't 'authored' by him, but it was 'revealed' to him and then 'recorded' by him.

How about Joseph Smith who was supposedly given glasses by an angel

so he could find 'Christ's last testament' but then it dissapeared

so he had to record it for future generations of Jehova's Witnesses.

where's the difference there ahkee?

Salafi_Zahrah · August 10, 2005

http://www.troid.org/articles/islaamicinfo...saboutislam.htm

That site should answer all your questions. There you will find the difference.

Ahkee is brother I am a sister.

If you have anything else PM me I'm not doing it here.

RumPuncher · August 10, 2005

still doesn't explain how the act of Muhammed 'receiving' the Qu'ran

and the act of Joesph Smith 'finding' the book of Mormon are different.

either way... let's drop this line of discussion.

< and sorry, I didn't know you are female >

Dawood · August 11, 2005

Originally posted by RumPuncher+Aug 10 2005, 03:23 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RumPuncher - Aug 10 2005, 03:23 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Dawood@Aug 9 2005, 09:14 PM
Also , Jesus was not God, He was a prophet and a messenger.