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Theory on graffiti getting worse in general...


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yeah i am not saying i know it all or nutthing but i think that graff is becoming a trend at least in my area like in was in the newstpapers about how "taggers"are becoming movr "severe" or whatever and what seems like the next day i see hella new handstiles that look all the same written hella places and shit.

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but graffiti is getting more media coverage at the moment,not to mention the sudden boom in using it in advertising and clothing lines.....sad thing is that even with all of the media coverage people still dont see the truth behide it all,all they think of when its on the news or what ever is the stero-type troubled kid with nothing better to do....or worse a black male from a gang...either way they just dont want to understand the truth at all..maybe they fear they might like what we do??

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I've said this many times before. With all the information technology we have today, there will no longer be any "underground cultures" anymore... No matter how hard you try to keep info. contained, there's always going to be some idiot who's gonna blow up spots via the internet. To me, the last decade w/ any sense of true underground cultures will always be the 90's...

 

This applies to everything and not just graffiti or hip hop. DJ's no longer find too much thrill in diggin because you can just log online and buy almost any record you want. Fashion has become corny... You can just go on ebay and buy any type of vintage lo or face item you want. It used to be through connects and actually meeting up. Everything from skating to street racing, clubs, raves, you name it is just blown up. Back in the day, people just had to go places and learn and explore on their own... Now, we just go online and become a part of some underground culture in Australia because we gain all the knowledge from their forums..

 

Its like graff writers want the public to accept graffiti and notice it, but then when it blows up, they are left all dazed and realize that it was better off when we just had it for ourselves... When graff is accepted by society, it changes the whole concept of it. So, do we really want that?

 

But with all this complaining, we just have to adapt to the times. Keep the same formula and just take it to another level...

 

I'm just another complainer.. so bring on the hate..

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Also, I wanted to mention that no matter how much graff writers deny it, at some point they were in this for some sort of "fame." So, its that hunger for fame, that makes it very sketchy of when you're considered "selling out." If you're writing your name all over the city, you obviously want people to know who you are... I'm just rambling.. there should be some sort of psycho+logical study on the mind of a graff writer..

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obviously graff writers are out for fame, but to me, its how you use the fame once you get it...it seems for every 10 writers that blow up, 8 of them release a book, have shows, and become designers for trendy companies, while the other 2 are still putting in mad work, sure, maybe they have a show, or are featured in a magazine, but they dont try to suck the shit dry. there is no way our game will ever become accepted by the public, what we do is straight up destruction of property, yes, it has artisitc elements, but thats not what its about, at least to me. when i hear people refer to it as art it almost makes me cringe, art is meant to be hung on a wall and sold to some rich ass dude from the 'burbs, what i do can never be captured on a canvas, or sold to my dad...there is no way any artist could capture the feeling of finally pulling off the spot you have been planning for weeks, or hanging from some piece of shit ledge wondering if your even gonna finish your fill without dying. to be honest, it doesnt really matter what video games come out (can you tell i really hate that shit?), what writer blows up, or what clothing line has the coolest t-shirt, cause in two years, graff is going to look like some played out trend, and all the fake ass kids who think of it as a hobby will turn away and move towards the newest un-corrupted trend, and it will just be us again, being hated on by everyone and not giving a fuck cause its what we love...i wish i could go back to early high-school where the older kids made fun of me because "that shit is so pointless, look i can draw bubble letters too!", because the "can you draw me a trucker hat!?" era is fucking weak.

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so you dont see what you do is art??yet you want fame for it?......but if graffiti is now the fashion and all these kids joining it dont have a clue or anything...why do the current writers still go about our buisness of geting up at 2am and staying out till 5am...when as its said this ART is dead and just a shadow of what it once was?

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I agreew with philly, graffiti isnt art. No matter how you look at it. Its straight up vandalism. you wouldnt like it if someone put a throw up over your garage door or hit scribe tags on your car windshield. Yeah, "actual taggers" dont do this shit because most abide by some sort of rules of conduct. But what if the thing that was hit was a warehouse you had saved money for years to buy? You finally get what you want and the next day theres a row of tags all along the wall?

 

You cant justify that shit. I know i dont.

 

And on graffiti getting worse in general i dont know why people are talking about this, just worry about yourself and if you keep at it all the fakes wil die out. Youll be left standing, i kow theres a bunch of people here who've been in for some time and when they started they had a bunch of people who started around the same time as well. How many of them are still writing now? How many quit after they got caught the FIRST time?

 

Graffiti is what you make it.

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Originally posted by pugsly@Aug 13 2005, 09:34 AM

so you dont see what you do is art??yet you want fame for it?......but if graffiti is now the fashion and all these kids joining it dont have a clue or anything...why do the current writers still go about our buisness of geting up at 2am and staying out till 5am...when as its said this ART is dead and just a shadow of what it once was?

 

i think you have the wrong idea of what fame is...i dont want to be walking down the street and be recognized by random people, i dont want to live a glamourus lifestyle from money i make off of graffiti. the only fame i want is that when my name is mentioned around the writers that i looked up to, and got inspired by, that they say "yeah, that kids got his shit down". now dont get me wrong, im no super-star, and honestly, i dont really desire to be, i dont give a fuck if my name isnt heard out of philadelphia, i just want to get up with my friends and have a good time, and shit, if i meet some cool new people out of it then i think thats really the most i could ask for.

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graffiti isnt art, stop all that nonsense. graff in its purest form is destruction, plain and simple...

and like Mr.ABC said, unless you have about 10 years ahead of you with nothing much in your plans,

i suggest stopping now, cause youll only add to the decline.... ive been out for well over a decade and i STILL think my shit is hurt...

start from scratch, thats the best advice you can get....

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i aint saying graffiti is just art..but a combo of the two...and i think that its a blend that works well from my point and obviously other writers see it that way....otherwise you just want to vandalise something..so go buy a sledge hammer and save your money on all the paint and ink you buy....

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i have an ansor i will become a secont grade teatcher and get kidds to perfect there names then words and on the last day of school i will take my futcher graff gods ot the local free wall and teatch then real art.oh yea i will be the best teatch austin texas has ever had,i i will be the super teatcher :king: :king: :king:

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Guest -MOE LESTER-

the main problem with graffiti today is these newjacks who have NO RESPECT for the ones who came before them....when i first started writing we all knew who were the OGs in the game and made sure we didnt cap anything or do anything stupid.....but today theres all these youngass kids who dont know shit and go over nice stuff....sidebusting ass toys

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i still get shivers everytime i see the second part of caps interview in style wars... i get a picture of at least 4 or 5 mexican tagbanger rollin up in the same yard i'm in..and i just happen to leave my machette at home to save room for the last three cans of navy blue and a soda in my backpack...in my head..

 

but uh other than that this shit happens with everything i think.. you could say the same about beatmakers,photography,porn,and pimping....

eh fuck it..i'm out of smokes...later gotta go to the store.

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Originally posted by MOOGLE?@Aug 18 2005, 12:55 AM

i still get shivers everytime i see the second part of caps interview in style wars... i get a picture of at least 4 or 5 mexican tagbanger rollin up in the same yard i'm in..and i just happen to leave my machette at home to save room for the last three cans of navy blue and a soda in my backpack...in my head..

 

but uh other than that this shit happens with everything i think.. you could say the same about beatmakers,photography,porn,and pimping....

eh fuck it..i'm out of smokes...later gotta go to the store.

 

 

i love tag bangers.

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Originally posted by worldoflies@Aug 5 2005, 07:46 PM

i have seen some truly awful handwriting from some of the more recent writers to come out in my area. as you say, these guys memorize pieces and throwups by practicing the same outline over and over, but fall flat on their face when they deviate from the script.

 

some of it is impatience. when me or you were coming up, most writers were starting around age 12 or so. i had a few years to practice on paper before i was able and ready to go out and bomb. by the time i had access to a car and was able to paint over a wide area, highways etc., i had a lot of work under my belt.

 

many of today's writers are just starting to try their hand at graffiti when they are already in their twenties. they see other writers, often their friends hitting crazy spots and they want to do it too. they aren't going to wait two years while they getting their pencil game up.

 

a lot of people are into graffiti more for the addrenalin/adventure aspect than the art/craftsmanship aspect. in the past, these people just did tags and throwups that were simple but classic. now these people all want to do pieces and stay up with all the style trends. this leads to a lot of painting by people who really don't care about how their shit looks as long as it gets seen.

 

finally, the fact that so many people who are wack but are down with the in crowd or follow all the trends get props, especially on the internet takes away any incentive for the new writers to get good. they see the way to sucess in graffiti as being social climbing and scensterism. which it is now. get down with right people and in a year you get taken to more dope spots than you would have found on your own in 10 years. especially if you want to paint trains, this is important.

 

if you bomb with XXXX from XXX crew, you will come off in magazines, on 12 oz threads etc even if you suck. if your dope but not scene-certified, picture takers will go down the wall and skip your piece, then post the scenester pieces on either side of you on twelve ounce and jockers will repeat their names 15 times down the rest of thread. jesus christ knows ive seen that happen a hundred times on here.

 

 

we can complain all day about how graffiti has changed for the worse, but how many people actually go out of their way to show new and young writers what's up? i have given a ridiculous amount of time over the last 5 years or so doing this. but most "good" writers will maybe sign some kids black book at a show and thats it. they only want to paint with guys on their level. that's fine, then you really cant complain about the kids.

 

 

I remember you had this awesome post about nerdrap that I went so far as to cut and paste into MSword. But that computer crashed.

Good points.

 

*That last part you have in bold is important. Personally, I don't really have any friends my age that are down to paint with me, but it's all good because I paint with younger cats from time to time. I been giving them as much history lessons and advice (such as it is) as I can. And I can almost guarantee that it will help them BIGtime.

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yeah, it's like the graff scene became more important than the graff game...by that, i mean that now that people can network via the internet and post flicks, the writing became secondary...and therefore, style suffered as well. no one's going to push you when you have an aim list of forty other people who write like you...look like you, and basically ARE you. they won't tell you to your face that you suck...sure, they might tell everyone else, but that's what scenes are like, and why i have no use for them.

 

when i came up, i had fourteen years of indirect involvement in the game. i skated, went to shows, and hung out in the big city, so i knew lots of writers, from toys to kings, and saw a lot of styles and picked up a lot of the culture through osmosis. i didn't start bombing till i was 28, and i still don't think i'm that great, but i know what a good tag should look like... and that on straight letters the bars have to be proportional... and that style speaks volumes. after three years, i'm finally getting the hang of it, but i know now that it doesn't have to be technical, just solid. i see a lot of kids now using tricks i won't even touch- i'm still working on getting down piecing letters that work. i guess i just have a lot of respect for how much time it takes to be original and good- a lot of people are one or the other nowadays. and, that's fine, but it's not progress to do what everyone else is doing. someone told me once that graff hasn't really evolved since the eighties...i disagreed with him then, but in retrospect, i think he's right. unfortunately, stock tip pieces and vanity tags are an easy way to get your name out there without having to put any effort into style, so anyone can be as thug as they want and say, "i don't care, i'm up." well, if it works for them....

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the internet has done some good things for graff though.

surely the fact that work done by writers can reach an international audience is a good thing?

 

plus, i dont know bout you lot but the networking possibilities of the net are a good thing. its now possible to hook up with writers in different parts of the country - thats got to be a good thing for those of us who travel...

 

however its a double edged sword. for all the goood things the internet does, there are a load of things which suck about it. i say just paint how you want to paint. if youve been bought up well as a writer (ie. been educated in the graff ways) then i think your more likely to survive and last long.

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Originally posted by sweatstance@Aug 19 2005, 03:33 PM

one word and one word killed graffiti in the streets........

 

internet.

 

cats gets up on the internet more than the streets.

 

one can do a fill in out of nowhere and post it as many times as they want.

Yes but on the flipside, you think anyone every remembers or gives a fuck about these people?

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Originally posted by MrJackDaniels@Aug 24 2005, 04:29 PM

the internet has done some good things for graff though.

surely the fact that work done by writers can reach an international audience is a good thing?

 

plus, i dont know bout you lot but the networking possibilities of the net are a good thing. its now possible to hook up with writers in different parts of the country - thats got to be a good thing for those of us who travel...

 

however its a double edged sword. for all the goood things the internet does, there are a load of things which suck about it. i say just paint how you want to paint. if youve been bought up well as a writer (ie. been educated in the graff ways) then i think your more likely to survive and last long.

Good responce.

The fact that I can get an email address and basicly have family on the other side of the planet makes the internet a fucking great tool.

Its like anything mate. If you dont like how shit is being done, dont do it yourself and if you feel like it, tell others why this shit is not correct.

At the end of the day this little boom in graffiti will burn out again and only the writers with real heart for graff will stay on.

Dont stress about it just get on with the job.

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graffiti died when hip hop died. people did graff because of the hip hop era they had the funk and style in their pieces now a days writers dont even do graffiti for hip hop they do it because its a trend and they go around shooting toys who went over their shit. writers who get up dont have TIME to worry about the newjacks and toys. graffiti is hip hop and hip hop is something positive. if most kids weren't doing graffiti they would be doing worse things than writing their names on the wall but now people consider and look at graff as a gateway to negative things such as violence and drugs. thats my opinion on this topic.

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Originally posted by EnimeeOne+Aug 24 2005, 11:30 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (EnimeeOne - Aug 24 2005, 11:30 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-MrJackDaniels@Aug 24 2005, 04:29 PM

the internet has done some good things for graff though.

surely the fact that work done by writers can reach an international audience is a good thing?

 

plus, i dont know bout you lot but the networking possibilities of the net are a good thing. its now possible to hook up with writers in different parts of the country - thats got to be a good thing for those of us who travel...

 

however its a double edged sword. for all the goood things the internet does, there are a load of things which suck about it. i say just paint  how you want to paint. if youve been bought up well as a writer (ie. been educated in the graff ways) then i think your more likely to survive and last long.

Good responce.

The fact that I can get an email address and basicly have family on the other side of the planet makes the internet a fucking great tool.

Its like anything mate. If you dont like how shit is being done, dont do it yourself and if you feel like it, tell others why this shit is not correct.

At the end of the day this little boom in graffiti will burn out again and only the writers with real heart for graff will stay on.

Dont stress about it just get on with the job.

[/b]

sometimes i agree with this, sometimes i don't. graffiti has a great oral tradition, and the internet certainly contributes to it. sometimes, as much as i appreciate 12 oz. for the resource that it is, i feel that all the answers are right here and no one has to pay dues to learn style. however, they don't learn the rules- if you ask any outlaw, they'll say that the code of honor among thieves is sacred. why should graff be any different? i hear about writers ratting out other writers over crew beef...jealous toys ratting out people because they can't compete...among many other choice examples. the only reason i can think of as to why assholes get away with shit like this is that most of their peers don't know how the game works.

graffiti has always been borderline anarchy, but the understanding was that what goes around, comes around, and if you went over the line, it would be handled- and that was enough of a deterrent to keep the dumb shits in check. nowadays, anything goes. that's why i don't feel comfortable around new school writers- a lot of them don't understand respect or correct behavior, and treat the game like it's the lord of the flies. style can always be copied, and improved upon, regardless of character...the art will continue to move forward, backward, and sideways...it's the culture that's passing. that's what i mourn.

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Yes I agree, the traditional culture of graffiti has deteriorated to some extent, and it is signfyed by all the pionts you mentioned. Although there is no longer the emphisis on respect and learning from those who are better and more respected than you. The ultimate result of that will be the kids who do not go through this traditional schooling process, will not last. The saying "easy come easy go" I think is fairly applicable here.

Only the writers who have struggled and fought and gone through the pains of learning and climbing the ladder the way it should be done, will hold graffiti on enough of a pedistool to stay in it for the long term and school others.

 

Again, I think its important to let people know where it is at, If you have opinions voice them. That way the people who have respect for the artform can be influencial in putting others on the right path or at least letting others know that it is not the path for them.

 

I have personaly schooled about 10 different kids over time, Some who have become equal writers to myself others who have fell by the wayside but at least they still have respect for the actions taken in order to achieve within this artform. Others have come to me and I have ultimatly convinced them that graffiti is not the thing they wanted to do. Both are positive paths as long as they are right for the individual.

Peace

 

 

 

Originally posted by shai hulud+Aug 25 2005, 01:04 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shai hulud - Aug 25 2005, 01:04 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>
Originally posted by EnimeeOne@Aug 24 2005, 11:30 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-MrJackDaniels@Aug 24 2005, 04:29 PM

the internet has done some good things for graff though.

surely the fact that work done by writers can reach an international audience is a good thing?

 

plus, i dont know bout you lot but the networking possibilities of the net are a good thing. its now possible to hook up with writers in different parts of the country - thats got to be a good thing for those of us who travel...

 

however its a double edged sword. for all the goood things the internet does, there are a load of things which suck about it. i say just paint  how you want to paint. if youve been bought up well as a writer (ie. been educated in the graff ways) then i think your more likely to survive and last long.

Good responce.

The fact that I can get an email address and basicly have family on the other side of the planet makes the internet a fucking great tool.

Its like anything mate. If you dont like how shit is being done, dont do it yourself and if you feel like it, tell others why this shit is not correct.

At the end of the day this little boom in graffiti will burn out again and only the writers with real heart for graff will stay on.

Dont stress about it just get on with the job.

sometimes i agree with this, sometimes i don't. graffiti has a great oral tradition, and the internet certainly contributes to it. sometimes, as much as i appreciate 12 oz. for the resource that it is, i feel that all the answers are right here and no one has to pay dues to learn style. however, they don't learn the rules- if you ask any outlaw, they'll say that the code of honor among thieves is sacred. why should graff be any different? i hear about writers ratting out other writers over crew beef...jealous toys ratting out people because they can't compete...among many other choice examples. the only reason i can think of as to why assholes get away with shit like this is that most of their peers don't know how the game works.

graffiti has always been borderline anarchy, but the understanding was that what goes around, comes around, and if you went over the line, it would be handled- and that was enough of a deterrent to keep the dumb shits in check. nowadays, anything goes. that's why i don't feel comfortable around new school writers- a lot of them don't understand respect or correct behavior, and treat the game like it's the lord of the flies. style can always be copied, and improved upon, regardless of character...the art will continue to move forward, backward, and sideways...it's the culture that's passing. that's what i mourn.

[/b]

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