London

[KaBar2]

"This is war," is it? Then let's dispense with the bullshit facade of humanitarian detention, and get down to business on extracting information from the terrorist heroes we capture. The terrorists that bombed innocent Britons on their way to work could not care less about the Geneva Convention, the tenets of Islam or any other moral or ethical code, so I say we return the favor. Let's take the gloves off and give them a glimpse of exactly who they are provoking. Believe me, they will talk.

 

And as for me going to Iraq or Afghanistan, I already tried to get back into the Marines, and both times they turned me down, because I was technically too old. I suppose I could go wash dishes or maintain trucks for KBR, but I hardly see that contribution as worth it. I'd go if they would let me work as contract ground security, otherwise, I'll wait for my draft notice, like the rest of you guys.

 

I'd go in a New York second if the Marine Corps would let me back in, even as a private. But realistically, I know already that they will not.

 

In 1991, my brother-in-law (who was a Marine Corps captain and a infantry company commander during Vietnam) and I both tried to get back in for Desert Storm. They turned me down flat (too old by eight years or so) but because my brother-in-law had served about ten years as a Marine Reservist, he barely made it under the wire. He still had all his uniforms and everything. (So did I, and still do. They just don't fit anymore, LOL.) He was an attorney in Seattle, and owned a home, rental property, etc. When they told him he had been accepted, he started closing down his law business very quickly. He put his home on the market, sold his rental property and all his cars but one, and was about to pull the plug on being an attorney when they called him back and said, "Sorry, Captain. We don't need you, the Iraqis folded too quickly and we are already demobilizing." He was going to take over command of a Bulk Fuel company (in Saudi Arabia, I think.) He called me up almost in tears. "I was that close to getting back in! God damn the Iraqis! Couldn't they have held up another week or two?!!" I was jealous of him, because the Marine Corps was going to let him back in.

 

You guys think of the war in Iraq as being some huge Black Hawk Down shoot-em-up. The Marines I've talked to said it's not like that at all. They patrol constantly, and once in a while they actually make contact with the bad guys. The rest of the time, they just see regular, normal Iraqis going about their daily lives, glad that Saddam is gone.

 

The terrorists are evil. They murder innocent Iraqis who are pro-democracy. They kill Iraqi government workers, police officers, soldiers, especially Iraqi women who accept political positions of responsibility. THEY are the bad guys. Our troops are the GOOD GUYS. All this crap about making war for oil, blah-blah-blah is just so much baloney. We defeated the tyrannical government of a murderous, psychopath dictator. Remnants of his fascistic regime and fanatical fundamentalist Islamists are carrying out murderous terrorist attacks attempting to regain power. IT AIN'T GOING TO HAPPEN. Iraq will be a free, democratic, constitutional republic, and all the car bombs in the world are not going to stop that.

 

If the terrorists want to play hard ball, fucking great, we'll play hard ball. And when we catch them, they will tell us everything they know. Little by little, the al-Quaida network will be exposed and destroyed.

 

Personally, I think Camp X-ray in Guantanamo Bay is sort of a decoy operation. The real intelligence gathering from al-Quaida detainees is probably being done by the Egyptian secret police. After the Egyptians get the information, they ought to release the detainess back in Iraq after using the info. I imagine that the wonderful, heroic insurgents will kill them in about a week or less, saving us the trouble of doing so. (Let me guess. Somehow or another, us releasing snitch-jacket detainees back into their own neighborhood and letting their former pals kill them is somehow a violation of their human rights, right?) When do the INSURGENTS get held responsible for murdering people? Ever? Maybe some of you guys that support the insurgents' "struggle" ought to go to Iraq and tell them how much you support them. You'll probably get beheaded though, you infidel crusader white boy. ("No, wait! Wait! I'm a socialist!" CHOP.)

[casekonly]

speaking of beheadings, both of those white guys (daniel pearl and the other who was supopsedly there setting up for his cell phone biz) were cia informants or undercover. too many connections to the feds...anyhow, they were beheaded b/c they were spies, not innocent white men in the middle east.

 

it's common practice to behead there. not something they whipped up for white guys who get caught.

 

whatever. i feel bad for all the people who lost someone on the 7th as well as september 11 and all of the other bombings.

innocents have no place in dying for a war they may or may not have condoned.

[KaBar2]

Daniel Pearl may have been CIA, he also (more likely) may have been an amateur Mossad agent. Most of the other innocent victims were committing the heinous crime of trying to distribute Red Cross assistance, or driving a truck full of gasoline or canned goods for the interim Iraqi government.

 

I couldn't agree with you more, though. I certainly don't want to see any innocents injured or killed. I just want to see terrorist insurgents injured and killed, or captured and squeezed like a lemon for every drop of information they have. And no, I'm not overly concerned about their "rights." They lost their claim to "rights" when they became terrorist bandits. Had they decided to obey the laws of Iraq, they'd be happily drinking tea at home. Instead, they chose to become murderers and terrorists. Bad decisions result in bad consequences. And in the case of terrorists sent to Egypt, very bad consequences.

[casekonly]

kabar: you always come through witha sensible 'dad' type answer.

i'm glad for it, i think it keeps us in line.

 

anyhow, yeah, i agree about pearl being a cia or possibly mossad agent. remember the other guy 'nick berg'? it just happens that some al-qaeda guys in colorado at hsi school used his phone and he let them use his email account? oh really? hmmm. then he goes to iraq to make some money off of fixing ior settingup cell phone towers for his business???? oh really?

 

i'm sure there were more that were exploited by american media (as well as others) as being innocents. i doubt that all were innocent....

 

as for the insurgents: i think they, like us, are just fighting because their leaders say they should. for their freedoms, laws, religion, etc. it's hard for us to grasp that idea (hard for me, too) that they are just fighting for what they believe in. same as our troops. while i disagree with their tactics, that is one of the oldest cultures on earth. they are sued to fighting with small bands of men and using whatever emans they can to get the job done.

 

sad, but they had the awful idea of killing innocents....seems cowardly, but look at what they have to fight with...uneducated, unhealthy, rag tag groups. and they have money, and explosives.

[KaBar2]

True. Terrorism is just regular warfare on the cheap. If Bin Laden had MiG's or F-16's, he would be using them.

 

If we made one big error in Iraq, it was in disbanding the Iraqi Army. We could have put them ALL on the payroll for a fraction of what it is costing us to fight the war in Iraq. I don't think anybody in Washington D.C. realized how fucking crazy some of the Iraqis are. In the U.S., given the same situation, we'd probably be doing the same thing too, but I doubt we'd have the suicide-bomber phenomenon.

 

Eventually, the Iraqi government will gain traction and begin to pull. Soon, I hope.

 

After you mentioned him, I remembered Nick Berg. His father was very upset when he was killed, because I think Berg was held in a Coalition jail for several days under suspicion, then released, and shortly thereafter, kidnapped and murdered. (Shades of Mississippi, eh? It has everything except some good ol' boys chewin' tobacco down to the Courthouse.) I wonder what those guys were actually doing in Iraq? We will probably never find out. It might have been another deal like Frank Terrugi and Charles Horman in the Chilean Coup in 1974. If you've never seen it, go rent "Missing" with Sissy Spacek and Jack Lemmon. (I knew Frank Teruggi slightly. He was in the IWW.)

[casekonly]

yeah, i hope we're out of there as a fighting force by this time next year. it just doesn't seem plausible at this point, though.

 

the generals and strategists planning was all fucked up during this war. i honestly think it would've gone betetr ahd the bush administration not hyped it so much. big fuck up, there.

 

i actually feel sorry for saddam hussein right now...he's probably pacing around the cell exclaiming that he's still the leader of iraq as i type this.

 

i wonder if i could send him dvd's and he'd get them? i'd send him some sucky movies like 'when harry met sally' or 'fried green tomatos'. hell, our cinemas, wives, and girlfriends tortured us with that shit, so why not torture him with it, too?

[casekonly]

news reports now say that all 3 bombs on the underground exploded around 8:50a.m.

[Guest imported_El Mamerro]

Originally posted by KaBar2@Jul 9 2005, 03:25 AM

THEY are the bad guys. Our troops are the GOOD GUYS.

Quoted post

 

 

------------- • ------------

[casekonly]

kinda shitty to break it down to 'good' vs. 'bad'

 

they are doing what they think is right just as we are doing what we think is right. who's to say who is really right?

[Salafi_Zahrah]

Originally posted by KaBar2@Jul 9 2005, 04:25 AM

"This is war," is it? Then let's dispense with the bullshit facade of humanitarian detention, and get down to business on extracting information from the terrorist heroes we capture. The terrorists that bombed innocent Britons on their way to work could not care less about the Geneva Convention, the tenets of Islam or any other moral or ethical code, so I say we return the favor. Let's take the gloves off and give them a glimpse of exactly who they are provoking. Believe me, they will talk.

The west has been bombing Muslim countries for years. I don't support terrorism but it sounds to me like they are returning the favor.

 

And as for me going to Iraq or Afghanistan, I already tried to get back into the Marines, and both times they turned me down, because I was technically too old. I suppose I could go wash dishes or maintain trucks for KBR, but I hardly see that contribution as worth it. I'd go if they would let me work as contract ground security, otherwise, I'll wait for my draft notice, like the rest of you guys.

Thats not what I asked you. I asked would you go there and take up arms against the US lead coalition and the ignorant Muslims (who really aren't Muslims cause killing innocents takes you out of the folds of Islam) cause they are terrorist too.

 

In 1991, my brother-in-law (who was a Marine Corps captain and a infantry company commander during Vietnam) and I both tried to get back in for Desert Storm.

My ex-husband is a retired military policeman for the US Army first then joined the AirForce. He stationed in the Middle East for most of his time. He was in Turkey when US planes where flown from there to gas the Kurds with and Iraqi paliot. He was in Iraq during the Gulf War and with these so called UN sactions. He has told me stories about how he was for years order to withhold food from the Iraqis and even killed them children too. It was give us your oil we will give you food.

 

He also explained to me about the beef with Saddam and US came from Saddam wanting the Euro instead of the US dollar. As for when he invaded Kuwait, didn't know Kuwait was slan drilling did you. There is section of oil where Iraqi and Kuwait share but Kuwait was dipping in Iraq's side. That was the cause of that invasion. But don't get it twisted I am not a Saddam supporter but things are deeper than it seems.

 

My ex-husband also spoke to me about Osama and the people here are right he was our buddy when he was fighting the Soviets. But US pushed it when they wanted to put their troops in Saudi to defend Saudi from Saddam. Osama blow the whistle on the US and told Saudi that Saddam in no threat he doesn't have anything. Which now we see he doesn't.

 

You guys think of the war in Iraq as being some huge Black Hawk Down shoot-em-up. The Marines I've talked to said it's not like that at all. They patrol constantly, and once in a while they actually make contact with the bad guys. The rest of the time, they just see regular, normal Iraqis going about their daily lives, glad that Saddam is gone.

I don't see it like that but you are not seeing where it is a shoot-em-up issue. I also had a cousin and a uncle who were in the Gulf War as well they would have to get onto their fellow soldiers kicking spitting on just regular Iraqis.

 

The terrorists are evil. They murder innocent Iraqis who are pro-democracy. They kill Iraqi government workers, police officers, soldiers, especially Iraqi women who accept political positions of responsibility. THEY are the bad guys. Our troops are the GOOD GUYS. All this crap about making war for oil, blah-blah-blah is just so much baloney. We defeated the tyrannical government of a murderous, psychopath dictator. Remnants of his fascistic regime and fanatical fundamentalist Islamists are carrying out murderous terrorist attacks attempting to regain power. IT AIN'T GOING TO HAPPEN. Iraq will be a free, democratic, constitutional republic, and all the car bombs in the world are not going to stop that.

 

The terrorists are evil I agree but you only seem to be mentioning the Jihadist only the Western government are terrorist if not bigger ones. The only ones I support in this war are the Muslims, the rightous Muslims, the fundamentalist who fighting like they should democracy and Islam do not match (democracy is man ruled Shari'ah law is God's rule) they do not want democracy and those who have joined with the US to help try to bring about this democracy are traders. The US isn't a democracy it's republic. But again don't get it twisted that I support killings of innocents cause I don't.

 

If the terrorists want to play hard ball, fucking great, we'll play hard ball. And when we catch them, they will tell us everything they know. Little by little, the al-Quaida network will be exposed and destroyed.

Well, you better start with arresting some of your government and Israel.

 

I would also like to add that my ex-husband suffers from effects of depleted uranium that our forces left over there. It is causing his nervous system to deteriorate so if that doing that to him imagine what it is doing to those Iraqis.

[casekonly]

maybe you should start a thread and explain the muslim culture to us. personally, i'd really enjoy that instead of reading a book about islam.

[KaBar2]

Salafi Zahrah---

 

I'm sorry your ex-husband is suffering health problems from his service in the Middle East. Probably, the depleted uranium ammunition is contributing to his illnesses. There are some physicians here in Houston who have had great success treating Gulf War Syndrome with high doses of a common antibiotic, doxycycline hydrochloride. There is a theory that all the various hazards combined (depleted uranium ammo, NBC agents in the air, combat stress, combined vaccinations for major diseases, atropine injections, etc.) result in Gulf War Syndrome.

 

I actually agree with you about the undue influence of the Jewish Lobby, or the Israel Lobby on American government. There are supposedly 14 million American Jews. They constitute less than 5% of the American population, yet they have enormous influence over our foreign policy, mainly because many of them hold very influential positions in universities, publishing, Hollywood, investment banking and so forth. However, it would be a lot easier to convince Congress to reduce the military and economic support to Israel if other nations in the Middle East would stop threatening them. The Israelis actually welcome aggression against them, because it guarantees that Uncle Sugar will keep the honey flowing.

 

I was told about a surprisingly good book from an unexpected source. An acquaintance told me about a book called "Jewish Supremacy," written by an American racist named David Duke. Mr. Duke came up with a very effective idea. He wrote a book making extensive use of statements, newspaper articles, magazine articles, etc. by major American Jewish figures that use their own thoughtless, callous statements to bolster Mr. Duke's racist agenda. Much of the book is the usual racist line, but the statements by major Jewish figures are quite shocking, and more effective than Mr. Duke's own writing. I was appalled, really, by the bluntness with which they articulated their own prejudices. These statements were clearly made with the idea they were unlikely to be publicized outside their Jewish audiences, and Mr. Duke meticulously documents and footnotes every single source.

 

As for your statement that "democracy and Islam do not match," well, democracy and Christianity did not match either, in the 16th century. It's time for Islam to progress, as it has in many areas of the world. Nobody is saying that Muslims cannot worship as they see fit, but the era of tyrannical Middle Eastern dictatorships is coming to a close. No longer will violence and hatred and terrorism be permitted to oppress millions of Muslims. No longer will Muslim women be forced to remain ignorant and uneducated. Chaste behavior is an individual decision. Muslim men who try to whip others into being devout are only sowing the seeds of the very changes they oppose. Time and tide wait for no man. Change is coming to the Middle East, and Iraq will be the cornerstone of democratic constitutional republics there, no matter what.

[Stereotype V.001]

"Apparently I was partially wrong. The funding of the "Islamic Militant Network" began in July of '79, six months prior to the Soviet invasion, and which would make Carter culpable. An interesting discovery, but either way we still created Al Qaeda. "

 

You are right here for the most part, but again we did not create them, we "aided" their cause. They already existed beforehand in the form of a loose resistance. Nuclear weapons were perceived as much more of a threat at the time, for some wacky reason. Go figure.

 

 

Hobo Knife- reread my post, I said that if Al Queda wanted war they would attack our military installations (Hence my stating "not people trying to go to their place of work to provide for themselves and their families" directly afterwards.) I realize this isn't WWII, there aren't any front lines, and the enemy doesn't wear uniforms. And if Al Queda had the wonderful idea of making their very own military installations, they would be magically transformed to piles of soot, dead zealots, and craters within a matter of hours. The ones past the red tape are dealt with in more of a discrete fashion.

 

King Bling- I don't recall mentioning South America, but I couldn't agree more that what has gone on down there, and still does for that matter, is wrong in every conceivable sense of the word. Torturing priests who sympathize with rebels, mowing down peaceful protesters. Anyone who doesn't know what I'm talking about should watch the movie "Romero."

 

In regards to Bin Laden, your right, he was butthurt because the arab world as a whole didn't want him to fight Sadam. This hurt his ego severly, and he started preaching against the Saudis, in Saudi Arabia (they were one of the main reasons he didnt lead the war against Iraq). Luckily for him he is the middle eastern equivalent of a trust fund child, so instead of being the main attraction at "chop chop" friday, he was just sent out of the country. (Oh and his main reason for his hatred of Sadam's regime is it's secularism. Our good friend Salafi Zahra put it best with "democracy is man ruled Shari'ah law is God's rule.")

 

Kabar, I agree with your post 100% except this

 

"If the terrorists want to play hard ball, fucking great, we'll play hard ball. And when we catch them, they will tell us everything they know. Little by little, the al-Quaida network will be exposed and destroyed."

 

This is the attitude that makes it impossible to get a foothold in the middle east. Want to take Al Queda down brick by brick? Increase the quality of life (much much much easier said then done.) Then take down the top, and concentrate all our efforts on taking down the top. This includes governments that allows them to operate freely. And I don't mean another long, drawn out, highly publicized war, I mean how we dealt with Afghanistan but on a smaller scale.

 

If Daniel Pearl was in fact CIA he was low level because he was allowed to be captured. Are the CARE workers who are oftened targeted also intelligence agents?

 

"Thats not what I asked you. I asked would you go there and take up arms against the US lead coalition and the ignorant Muslims (who really aren't Muslims cause killing innocents takes you out of the folds of Islam) cause they are terrorist too."

 

Let me explain the difference to you.

US policy - Killing civilians is NO NO.

Insurgent/Terrorist/Freedom Fighter/whatever the fuck you want to call them policy- Killing civilians is good for business! Lets go blow up some mosques in the name of allah while were at it, that's not ironic or anything!!

 

Sure civilians get killed, it's war. US soldiers get killed by their friends as well. It isn't intentional, it's the nature of war. It's not how hollywood would like you to believe.

[ASER1NE]

Originally posted by casekonly@Jul 9 2005, 05:46 AM

 

they are doing what they think is right just as we are doing what we think is right. who's to say who is really right?

Quoted post

 

Dont forget that WE Invaded THEM, not the other way around.

[Salafi_Zahrah]

Originally posted by KaBar2@Jul 9 2005, 04:54 PM

As for your statement that "democracy and Islam do not match," well, democracy and Christianity did not match either, in the 16th century. It's time for Islam to progress, as it has in many areas of the world. Nobody is saying that Muslims cannot worship as they see fit, but the era of tyrannical Middle Eastern dictatorships is coming to a close. No longer will violence and hatred and terrorism be permitted to oppress millions of Muslims. No longer will Muslim women be forced to remain ignorant and uneducated. Chaste behavior is an individual decision. Muslim men who try to whip others into being devout are only sowing the seeds of the very changes they oppose. Time and tide wait for no man. Change is coming to the Middle East, and Iraq will be the cornerstone of democratic constitutional republics there, no matter what.

Quoted post

I'm going to try to make this as clear as I can. True freedom, from the Islamic perspective, does not mean aimlessly following all of your human desires for food, drink, wealth and sex (which democracy is). On the contrary, freedom means being able to control one's base desires and fulfilling them in a proper and legal way. This brings one's desires in tune with what God wants for us --- only then is a person truly free! The laws of man change the laws of Allah do not. Islam is a complete way of life for a Muslim there is a short prayer we do before we sleep, when we wake up, before we leave the home, when come into our home, when we buy new clothes etc. And there is even a short prayer made when you enter and leave the bathroom. And Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world that looks like progress to me.

 

Numerous verses of the Qur'an make it clear that men and women are equal in the site of God. According to the teachings of Islam, the only thing that distinguishes people in the site of God is their level of God-consciousness. Due to this, many people are surprised to find out that Islamic Law guaranteed rights to women over 1400 years ago. For example, Islam clearly teaches that a woman is a full-person under the law, and is the spiritual equal of a male. Also, according to Islamic Law, women have the right to own property, operate a business and receive equal pay for equal work. Women are allowed total control of their wealth, they cannot be married against their will and they are allowed to keep their own name when married etc.

 

First of all, the Holy Qur'an clearly says "Let there be no compulsion in religion". In addition to this, Islam teaches that a person's faith must be pure and sincere, so it is certainly not something that can be forced on someone. What the West has done is turned Iraq into one big battle field and caused a civil war, Sunnis vs Shia. Our government completely rejected Shari'ah in Iraq's constitution cause this isn't about Iraq being free are even pleasing Iraq it's about pleasing the West.

 

Islam Q&A

[SPORTO]

Who the fuck are you Stereotype V.001?

Your post reads like a deluded teens rant.

[SPORTO]

Quote Stereotype V.001: "impossible to get a foothold in the middle east"

 

 

Who the fuck asked Team USA to dirty their hands.

 

With a super power comes 'intrestes', so its obligotory?

[Guest imported_El Mamerro]

Originally posted by Salafi_Zahrah@Jul 9 2005, 11:37 PM

...does not mean aimlessly following all of your human desires for food, drink, wealth and sex (which democracy is).

Quoted post

 

 

?

[villain]

Originally posted by Salafi_Zahrah@Jul 9 2005, 09:59 AM

I would also like to add that my ex-husband suffers from effects of depleted uranium that our forces left over there. It is causing his nervous system to deteriorate so if that doing that to him imagine what it is doing to those Iraqis.

Quoted post

 

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/95178_du12.shtml

 

And I would like to add this crazy link from the other thread to make it more easily referenceable.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/a...in_explosions_1

[Stereotype V.001]

Originally posted by SPORTO@Jul 10 2005, 05:52 AM

Quote Stereotype V.001: "impossible to get a foothold in the middle east"

 

 

Who the fuck asked Team USA to dirty their hands.

 

With a super power comes 'intrestes', so its obligotory?

Quoted post

 

First off, I would like to say yes you are 110% right, except I spell correctly and have this weird ability to put together sentences (hence my posts don't consist of "OMFG AMERIKKKA IS WICKED GAY LOLZ P DIDY TOLD ME ROCK VOTE YO LOLZER HE TOLD ME DOOD POLICE STATE 420 LEGALIZE NOW LOLZ I TAGEDD A COP CAR M I DSOWN YET???").

 

Also, I would love to reply to your second post but I'm not sure what "intrestes" are, maybe you meant interests, and maybe you were talking about intestines. And by super power do you mean the ability to fly, stretch, and stop crime?

 

To answer your question, I asked Team USA America to dirty their hands. War is fun, grab a carbine and get started buddy! Actually I was just explaining why the "kill em all, nobody can fuck with the U S of fucking A" attitude doesn't really pertain to the middle east, or any situation where people are willing to blow themselves up due to a deluded version of their religion.

[KaBar2]

Salafi Zahrah---

There are virtually NO religions which mandate hatred and brutality. The Christian faith admonishes Christians to "turn the other cheek", to "love your neighbor as yourself," and that "sooner a camel will pass through the eye of a needle, than a rich man go to heaven." The Jewish faith also has many instructions to treat people fairly, to welcome strangers into camp, and so forth. All the religions of the East likewise encourage their adherants to treat others humanely and justly.

It is not the tenets of the religions that are the problem, it is the way in which human beings choose to apply these tenets in their interactions with one another. Virtually every religion claims that it's understanding of the Supreme Being is the only one that is valid, and all three of the Mosaic faiths (Judaism, Christianity and Islam), which all derive from the same part of the world and the same religious documents and traditions (the Ten Commandments, etc.) all make this claim. It is a foolish belief to think one knows the mind of God. It is even more foolish to think one is serving God through violence and aggression, through brutality and oppression, through cruelty and torture, but that does not stop human beings, including Jews, Christians AND MUSLIMS, from thinking that they alone know the true faith, and that God, or Yaweh, or Allah, has commissioned them to force the rest of the world to accept their viewpoint of things.

 

Your personal opinions, and those of your co-religionists, about what is appropriate behavior, required religious observance, morally correct and "true freedom," are all well and good, but no human being has the right to enforce a system of religious tyranny over another. If you wish to refrain from voting, wear a burkha and refuse to work outside your home, the rest of the world has no objection. But the rest of the world DOES have an objection if you intend to require others to do the same by force and violence. The lack of democracy and political freedom in the Middle East has become a threat to the rest of the world. It is time for representative democracy to flower in the Arab World, and flower it will. The days of the tyrants are fast coming to a close, and if it requires a war to overturn these dictatorships, then I suppose there will be a war. Democracy is coming like a rising tide, and regardless of what some fundamentalist Muslims would prefer, it will eventually permeate the Middle East.

 

The one thing the West can do to hurry things along is GET OFF THE PETROLEUM HABIT. Every barrel of oil we purchase from Middle Eastern wells puts money into the pockets of rapacious oil companies and into the coffers of brutal, tyrannical dictators, not to mention putting foul pollution into the very air we breathe.

[villain]

Originally posted by Stereotype V.001+Jul 9 2005, 04:46 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Stereotype V.001 - Jul 9 2005, 04:46 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>You are right here for the most part, but again we did not create them, we "aided" their cause. They already existed beforehand in the form of a loose resistance. Nuclear weapons were perceived as much more of a threat at the time, for some wacky reason. Go figure.

[/b]

 

What are we disagreeing on here? Semantical differences? Maybe you should visit "Spelling Lessons with TheLaw". Yes these radical islamic extremists existed before but the CIA recruiting campaign gathered them all together into what we now know as Al Queda. There has been Islamic extremists ever since Islam split into two groups when Mohammad died. I'm not understanding the point you are trying to make. (And I'm going to drag you out of the closet by prodding at you... lol)

 

Originally posted by Stereotype V.001@Jul 9 2005, 04:46 PM

Hobo Knife- reread my post, I said that if Al Queda wanted war they would attack our military installations (Hence my stating "not people trying to go to their place of work to provide for themselves and their families" directly afterwards.) I realize this isn't WWII, there aren't any front lines, and the enemy doesn't wear uniforms. And if Al Queda had the wonderful idea of making their very own military installations, they would be magically transformed to piles of soot, dead zealots, and craters within a matter of hours. The ones past the red tape are dealt with in more of a discrete fashion.

 

The US military has a doctrine for this. We call it "Total War". It has been around since the beginning of time. That is when anything goes.... even killing civilians. I'm sure that in the right circumstances the US military would embrace it wholly and say screw the geneva conventions. There may even be some commanders who live by this doctrine now, believing in rule through fear. We actually engaged in some of the tenets of Total War during the Iraq war by destroying their civilian infrastructure. (I would also like to note that most of the insurgents are being PAID. If you and your family were starving to death because the Iraq Reconstruction Fund was being embezzled by Halliburton would you rather get paid to fight for those who destroyed your country or get paid to fight against them? And to Casek- It was not the military leadership who failed us in Iraq. Perhaps you would remember Gen. Shinseki stating that we would need at least twice as many troops as we have now to secure and maintain Iraq. Gen. Shinseki "retired" not long after that statement. You should read Rise of the Vulcans: The History of Bush's War Cabinet - By James Mann. These people, Rumsfeld and Cheney in particular, have absolutely no real military experience and are very insistent and proud chickenhawks. I'm sure our generals would get a good laugh out of their "war plans" if it weren't a real threat to our lives.)

 

<!--QuoteBegin-Stereotype V.001@Jul 9 2005, 04:46 PM

If Daniel Pearl was in fact CIA he was low level because he was allowed to be captured. Are the CARE workers who are oftened targeted also intelligence agents?

Quoted post

 

R.I.P. Margaret Hassan

R.I.P. Marla Ruzicka

 

 

 

R.I.P. London bombing victims.

 

 

 

Propaganda death ensemble

Burial to be

Corpses rotting through the night

In blood laced misery

Scorched Earth the policy

The reason for the singe

The pendulum it shaves the blade

The strafing air blood raid

 

infiltration push reserves

Encircle the front lines

Supreme art of strategy

Playing on the minds

Bombard till submission

Take all to their graves

Indication of triumph

The number that are dead

 

CHORUS

Sport the war, war support

The sport is war, total war

When victory's a massacre

The final swing is not a drill

It's how many people I can kill

 

 

CHORUS

 

Be dead friend from above

When darkness falls

Descend into my sights

Your fallen walls

Spearhead break through the lines

Flanked all around

Soldiers of attrition

Forward their ground

Regime prophetic age

Old in its time

Flowing veins run on through

Deep in the Rhine

Center of the web

All battles scored

What is our war crimes

(Era forever more...war)

 

Propaganda war ensemble

Burial to be

Bones shining in the night

In blood laced misery

Campaign of elimination

Twisted psychology

When victory is to survive

And death is defeat

 

CHORUS

Sport the war, war support

The sport is total war

When victory's a massacre

When victory is survival

When this end is a slaughter

The final swing is not a drill

It's how many people I can kill

[villain]

Originally posted by KaBar2@Jul 10 2005, 12:11 PM

It is a foolish belief to think one knows the mind of God.

Quoted post

 

— Are there bounds to things created?”— “None, that

finite minds discern.”

— Was there ever a beginning?” — “None that finite

minds may learn . . .” (st. 43)

 

James De Mille

Behind the Veil

 

I was actually looking for a Milton quote but this will work.

[Salafi_Zahrah]

Originally posted by KaBar2@Jul 10 2005, 01:11 PM

Salafi Zahrah---

There are virtually NO religions which mandate hatred and brutality. The Christian faith admonishes Christians to "turn the other cheek", to "love your neighbor as yourself," and that "sooner a camel will pass through the eye of a needle, than a rich man go to heaven." The Jewish faith also has many instructions to treat people fairly, to welcome strangers into camp, and so forth. All the religions of the East likewise encourage their adherants to treat others humanely and justly.

 

I would like to know where did you get that from my post. I even explained the rights of woman. Are you even reading my post? And I will not turn this into a Christianity vs Islam debate.

 

It is not the tenets of the religions that are the problem, it is the way in which human beings choose to apply these tenets in their interactions with one another. Virtually every religion claims that it's understanding of the Supreme Being is the only one that is valid, and all three of the Mosaic faiths (Judaism, Christianity and Islam), which all derive from the same part of the world and the same religious documents and traditions (the Ten Commandments, etc.) all make this claim. It is a foolish belief to think one knows the mind of God. It is even more foolish to think one is serving God through violence and aggression, through brutality and oppression, through cruelty and torture, but that does not stop human beings, including Jews, Christians AND MUSLIMS, from thinking that they alone know the true faith, and that God, or Yaweh, or Allah, has commissioned them to force the rest of the world to accept their viewpoint of things.

 

Already explained this

First of all, the Holy Qur'an clearly says "Let there be no compulsion in religion". In addition to this, Islam teaches that a person's faith must be pure and sincere, so it is certainly not something that can be forced on someone.

Do you want me to give you the actual verse? Ask any of the over one billion Muslims alive in the world today whether they were forced! The largest Muslim country in the world today is Indonesia --- and there were never any battles fought there so couldn't have been spearded by the sword.

 

Your personal opinions, and those of your co-religionists, about what is appropriate behavior, required religious observance, morally correct and "true freedom," are all well and good, but no human being has the right to enforce a system of religious tyranny over another. If you wish to refrain from voting, wear a burkha and refuse to work outside your home, the rest of the world has no objection. But the rest of the world DOES have an objection if you intend to require others to do the same by force and violence. The lack of democracy and political freedom in the Middle East has become a threat to the rest of the world. It is time for representative democracy to flower in the Arab World, and flower it will. The days of the tyrants are fast coming to a close, and if it requires a war to overturn these dictatorships, then I suppose there will be a war. Democracy is coming like a rising tide, and regardless of what some fundamentalist Muslims would prefer, it will eventually permeate the Middle East.

 

Dictatorships that US supports and help put in power that did not come from our religion. If all those things were true about Islam about woman I don't think I would be a Muslim woman. I wear the face viel and all black and I'm not forced to do that. And the way Muslims go about choosing a leader also have been instructed by Qur'an and Hadith. And these are not my person opinion everything I have mention you can easy look up on Salafi Muslim sites and the links I have provided.

 

Unfortunately, due to a twisted mixture of biased reporting in the Western media and the actions of some ignorant Muslims, the word "Islam" has become almost synonymous with "terrorism". However, when one analyzes the situation, the question that should come to mind is: Do the teachings of Islam encourage terrorism? The answer: Certainly not! Islam totally forbids the terrorist acts that are carried out by some misguided people. It should be remembered that all religions have cults and misguided followers, so it is their teachings that should be looked at, not the actions of a few individuals. Unfortunately, in the media, whenever a Muslim commits a heinous act, he is labeled a "Muslim terrorist". However, when Serbs murder and rape innocent women in Bosnia, they are not called "Christian terrorists", nor are the activities in Northern Ireland labeled "Christian terrorism". Also, when right-wing Christians in the U. S. bomb abortion clinics, they are not called "Christian terrorists". Reflecting on these facts, one could certainly conclude that there is a double-standard in the media.

 

People in the West are made to believe that tyrants like Saddam Hussein in Iraq and Moamar Qaddafi in Libya are "Islamic" leaders -- when just the opposite is true. Neither of these rulers even profess Islam as an ideology, but only use Islamic slogans to manipulate their powerless populations. In reality, many Middle Eastern regimes which people think of as being "Islamic" actually oppress the practice of Islam in their countries. It's not what some Islamic fundamentalist perfer Iraq is a MUSLIM COUNTRY The few Iraqi Jew and Christian who will still able to worship as they see fit under Shari'ah but I have said all of this before.

 

I covered everything you can either take it or reject it. I hope someone has learned something from my post and if you will know more you can just PM me.

[villain]

Originally posted by Salafi_Zahrah@Jul 10 2005, 07:06 PM

Unfortunately, in the media, whenever a Muslim commits a heinous act, he is labeled a "Muslim terrorist". However, when Serbs murder and rape innocent women in Bosnia, they are not called "Christian terrorists", nor are the activities in Northern Ireland labeled "Christian terrorism". Also, when right-wing Christians in the U. S. bomb abortion clinics, they are not called "Christian terrorists". Reflecting on these facts, one could certainly conclude that there is a double-standard in the media.

Quoted post

 

 

That is a very good point.

[SPORTO]

Hands up!!

 

I said it.

 

"who smells a rat?"

 

in relation to the London Bomings.

[SF1]

Originally posted by Salafi_Zahrah@Jul 11 2005, 12:06 AM

I wear the face viel and all black...

Quoted post

 

Holy shit do you write??? That's the best disguise ever!

You could have a sidebag full of paint under your garb and the cops would never suspect you're out bombin! :haha: :haha:

 

Shit, I might start dressing like a Muslim woman when I go bombing and if I get chased I can dip in a alley and take that shit off and be wearing regular close underneath. walk out the alley and tell the cops "she went that way". :haha: :haha:

[SF1]

Originally posted by villain+Jul 11 2005, 12:42 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (villain - Jul 11 2005, 12:42 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Salafi_Zahrah@Jul 10 2005, 07:06 PM

Unfortunately, in the media, whenever a Muslim commits a heinous act, he is labeled a "Muslim terrorist". However, when Serbs murder and rape innocent women in Bosnia, they are not called "Christian terrorists", nor are the activities in Northern Ireland labeled "Christian terrorism". Also, when right-wing Christians in the U. S. bomb abortion clinics, they are not called "Christian terrorists". Reflecting on these facts, one could certainly conclude that there is a double-standard in the media.

Quoted post

 

 

That is a very good point.

Quoted post

[/b]

 

 

WORD!

[Stereotype V.001]

Originally posted by SF1+Jul 10 2005, 09:09 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SF1 - Jul 10 2005, 09:09 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Salafi_Zahrah@Jul 11 2005, 12:06 AM

I wear the face viel and all black...

Quoted post

 

Holy shit do you write??? That's the best disguise ever!

You could have a sidebag full of paint under your garb and the cops would never suspect you're out bombin! :haha: :haha:

Quoted post

[/b]

 

Dude, that was a terrible choice of words. Yea, nooobody would suspect someone dressed in the authentic Muslim garb of bombing. Probably why many Muslims have such an easy time with airport security ect.

[Stereotype V.001]

villain, I do agree with you, I misunderstood what you originally meant. When you said "created" I thought you meant it in the literal "with a half a cup of extremist, an ounce of jihad, and a pinch of cinnamon." And if some commanders are subscribing to the total war theory and are operating in Iraq now, that doesn't change the fact that it isn't the official US policy. As long as there are politicians and media, that won't be a reality on a large scale at all.

 

 

"QUOTE (Salafi_Zahrah - Jul 10 2005, 07:06 PM)

Unfortunately, in the media, whenever a Muslim commits a heinous act, he is labeled a "Muslim terrorist". However, when Serbs murder and rape innocent women in Bosnia, they are not called "Christian terrorists", nor are the activities in Northern Ireland labeled "Christian terrorism". Also, when right-wing Christians in the U. S. bomb abortion clinics, they are not called "Christian terrorists". Reflecting on these facts, one could certainly conclude that there is a double-standard in the media. "

 

Not sure if you guys are familiar with any of the various propaganda films floating around the internet from the "NON-SPECIFIED RELIGION terrorist" groups, but other then executing unarmed men, attacking troops and blowing themselves up, there is one thing they all have in common. The incessant chanting of "Allah Akbar." So basically what I'm saying here is the self described Jihad (roughly translated- A Muslim holy war or spiritual struggle against infidels) might make some people inclined to use said term.