Is America's education system losing to Asia?

[dumy]

Originally posted by KaBar2@May 4 2005, 01:36 PM

It is impossible to make the educational experience equal for every student, but by and large the issue is the students themselves and the culture in which they live. One of the biggest problems we face in the U.S. is dealing with a youth culture that is so entitled that our children have lost the basic understanding of the necessity of striving for success. Mom and Dad either micromanage every detail of the kid's life, trying to guarantee success, or they are completely uninvolved and spend their time intoxicated or otherwise unavailable.

 

The basic assets required to become educated exist in every school in the U.S., but when the thugs are cool, rather than the higher-performing students, don't bring that crap about "it's the schools' fault" and "society is racist blah blah blah." It's an excuse and a poor one at that.

 

NOBODY is responsible for your life and your success or lack thereof but YOU. Every American city of any size has a public library system. If you think your school isn't doing the job, you'd best get your ass to the library. There is nothing stopping American students from studying on their own except their own LAZINESS. Less time on the basketball court or vegging out in from of some mind-numbing video game bullshit and more time LEARNING SOMETHING WORTHWHILE.

 

And please, get over that "I'm going to be a millionaire DJ" or "I'm going to play for the NBA." You aren't, so better start preparing for the real world. And if you fail to become educated, you know in your heart with whom the fault actually rests.

 

YOU ALONE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR LIFE. Don't pussy out and try to blame anybody else.

Quoted post

 

 

Yo Kabar

..while I agree with you that, in the end, every individual is responsible for his/herself; I still believe that one of the main purposes of our educational system is to prepare the individual to take on that responsibilty. Too many times in high school I had to sit through 45 minutes or so of unorganized, irrelevant and generally distraction riddled classroom enviroments. Classrooms where the teachers and students alike were ill-equipped to present, teach or take in information that would likely be useful to them later in life.

 

Shit, I learned more about adapting to the "real world" from the apathy and disinterest presented by the staff and students in HS than I did in some of my classes. Most of my "social interaction skills" and just knowledge on the world in general was learned at school, not at home, and no, not because my mother was too "intoxicated" to be invovled. But because we were living on section 8 housing with my moms working 2 jobs to keep our heads above water and the heat on. This coupled with the fact that a lot of my teachers were too overworked, underequipped, and just plain to stressed, with overcrowded classes and inferior resourses and materials, to even begin to take the extra mile to actually "teach" anything of value.

Its not like I believe the teachers were to blame entirely for this situtation, I think alot of the attitudes and methods they possessed and used were just symptoms of a greater problem.

 

But basically this was the reality not only for me (nod to mamerro) but also for a bunch of other brown (and white) faced, poor as fuck boys and girls growing up around my way, caught up in a vicious cycle that left them totally unprepared for and unaware of the "real world" . Its a terrible thing when opprotunity knocks and you don't answer that door but its FUCKED UP when no one takes the time to show a KID that the door even exists in the first place.

 

I'm not saying that the reality you spoke of "entitled youth..." who have "lost the basic understanding of the nessicity of striving for success" doesn't exist. I'm just saying theres another side homie, past the entitlement and laziness, cuz I ain't never asked nobody for shit, but for the things i've been given i'm eternally grateful and if it wasn't for those few who actually gave a damn or where in the position to give a damn (cuz so many aren't) I dont' know where I would be now. So before you pass judgement on the youth, think about the cards they were dealt and that you can play out that hand in any number of ways but you gotta be taught the game first. And yo, this was in no way trying to discredit or belittle your opinion, I believe it's a valid one, but just to shed light on another prespective that should not be disregarded.

 

aiight i'm done...

[SF1]

Word.

[POIESIS]

Originally posted by Fugazi@May 5 2005, 11:06 AM

This argument gets sooooo tired after a while.  Blah blah blah our schools are machines, creating unthinking factory workers.  Let me guess, the only way to be 'free thinking' is to not go to college, or even better, to drop out of highschool?  It's starting to seem like 'free thinking' might be synonymous with 'uneducated'.  There's nothing that tickles me pink like hearing a highschool drop out speak on issues that they obviously have no idea about, but feel very strongly about; especially when it's a topic they would have learned about getting a general education :)

Quoted post

 

i don't see what's tiring about a completely elementary grasp of reality.

i get the impression you feel this is a completely ridiculous postulation..

your entitled to your opinion, but i find it baffling anyone with half a brain can't grasp it.

indoctrination is a purely fundamental part of the system..just becuz

somebody asserts this doesn't mean that that they are inherently against

schools, or the merit of what schools offer or any other bullshit you'd

like to extrapolate from it.

it means what it means. nothing more, nothing less, and if you take a look at

the school system within the larger indoctrinal system, then you'll probably come to your

own conclusions where one could assert pro's and con's.

[Fugazi]

Originally posted by POIESIS+May 6 2005, 02:52 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (POIESIS - May 6 2005, 02:52 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Fugazi@May 5 2005, 11:06 AM

This argument gets sooooo tired after a while.  Blah blah blah our schools are machines, creating unthinking factory workers.  Let me guess, the only way to be 'free thinking' is to not go to college, or even better, to drop out of highschool?  It's starting to seem like 'free thinking' might be synonymous with 'uneducated'.  There's nothing that tickles me pink like hearing a highschool drop out speak on issues that they obviously have no idea about, but feel very strongly about; especially when it's a topic they would have learned about getting a general education :)

Quoted post

 

i don't see what's tiring about a completely elementary grasp of reality.

i get the impression you feel this is a completely ridiculous postulation..

your entitled to your opinion, but i find it baffling anyone with half a brain can't grasp it.

indoctrination is a purely fundamental part of the system..just becuz

somebody asserts this doesn't mean that that they are inherently against

schools, or the merit of what schools offer or any other bullshit you'd

like to extrapolate from it.

it means what it means. nothing more, nothing less, and if you take a look at

the school system within the larger indoctrinal system, then you'll probably come to your

own conclusions where one could assert pro's and con's.

Quoted post

[/b]

 

It's tiring because it is completely elementary; basic and simple. It's my position that many of the greatest thinkers in the world have completed their education. Yet to many it translates to being part of "the system". It translates to being intelligent. You can be street smart too; but first, learn your grammar, mathematics, science, etc...

[Guest imported_El Mamerro]

I don't think you're really understanding what POIESIS is saying, Fugazi.

 

Originally posted by POIESIS@May 5 2005, 09:52 PM

indoctrination is a purely fundamental part of the system..just becuz

somebody asserts this doesn't mean that that they are inherently against

schools, or the merit of what schools offer or any other bullshit you'd

like to extrapolate from it.

Quoted post

 

 

 

There's absolutely no question that the school system IS an institution of indoctrination. As a matter of fact, I can't even fathom ANY school system being anything other than that, and would consider any government that doesn't construct its school system in that fashion unprepared to build and lead a country.

 

It is the school system's job to teach and ingrain the skills, behaviors, manner of thinking, and methodologies needed to keep the society running in the framework and infrastucture that has been built for it to advance. Now, it's up to you whether you want to consider this framework to be an evil, well-oiled machine run by mindless cogs, or simply the best way so far the country has found to keep itself stable and hopefully improving (or somewhere in between, as I do in my ever-so-moderate stance on things). It is imperative for a government to establish such a training system, or risk collapse. This is, of course, an ideal concept... our current public school system doesn't necessarilly even fulfill its purpose of indoctrination (aka: may not teach you what to need to be an efficient "cog") very well.

 

Now, it is my opinion that if you have enough brain to understand that the school system is an institution of indoctrination, you have enough brain to deduce how to work outside that indoctrination. Now, if you decide to leave school cause you don't want to be part of what it modifies you for, you run the risk of failing at finding a viable alternative when you go out to fend for yourself. Stay in, do your best, and at least you'll learn what you need to succeed within the system in case all else fails.

 

In the case of my personal experience at school, I had a curriculum that taught me the standard things needed to train me into the system. Interpersonal relationships with teachers and friends taught me how to think outside it. The decision is up to you.

[KaBar2]

El Mammero is on the money. The bottom line is "You are responsible for yourself, not your parents, not the school, not the Government---YOU." Believe me, I was far from wealthy as a kid, but we also were not poor. My parents divorced when I was a teenager, and I had plenty of problems at school because of it, but most of them were of my own making. I was an angry and resentful kid. I used drugs and drank like a fish, and just barely graduated from high school. My preoccupations were surfing and anarchist politics. Neither one turned out to be at all useful when I became an adult.

 

The school plant where I went to high school was beautiful on the outside (built during the WPA Depression, and has a limestone facade that is unique among Houston schools) but the physical plant was in terrible shape. We still had steam heat and no air conditioning in 1969, in Houston, where spring and summer temeratures soar into the exceedingly humid 90's and 100's. Today, the school is integrated, of course, and the physical building is fifty times better than anything we had, with modern science labs, a beautiful theatre for the Drama Department, music practice rooms for the band, and so on. Unfortunately, they now have winning sports teams and a lousy showing academically. The percentage of students continuing to higher education is falling every year.

 

There are a lot of reasons for the deterioration of American schools. Partially, because the dedicated, highly qualified, mostly female teachers of the 1950's and 1960's are now taking advantage of increased opportunities for women, and are no longer teaching or going in to the "helping professions," like nursing, child care, etc. Partially because of the numerous distractions now existing and competing for teenagers' attention and time. Partially because of the fact that mothers are working, families have a less traditional structure, children are less disciplined, and fathers are increasingly irresponsible and absent.

 

But beyond all that, the real problem exists, as I said before, with the STUDENTS. If you choose not to work and study hard in school, and to determinedly seek the knowledge you will need as an adult, you will pay the price, and not only you, but also your family, when you become an adult. TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOURSELF. It's not about what you want to do. It's about what you need to do. You may not want to study. So what? Do it anyway, or pay the price. IT'S UP TO YOU. You get to choose: ignorance or knowledge.

[villain]

The point brought up earlier about being smart not being respected I'm going to have to agree with. It may have been effective social engineering to create dumb but strong students when we were a mainly manufacturing based country but now in the information age, that shit doesn't fly. We are falling behind according to all studies I've seen. I think Bill Gates is on point. It should be easier for kids to go to college.

 

I tried to go to college once upon a time, but all I got out of it was a humongous debt which I will probably have for the rest of my life. Trying to be educated has destroyed my life in many ways, while in other countries, higher education is free. That pisses me off. Every day of my life is wasted potential because I could be that much more productive as a citizen.

[metallix]

here is something i scanned for all of your benefits. make of it what you will but if you study systems you realize there not all that differen't from each other. furthermore villian you will see that paying for your eduation is part of the class-control system...

 

OR

http://img232.echo.cx/img232/3079/communed8ho.jpg

[Fugazi]

Originally posted by villain@May 6 2005, 06:48 PM

I think Bill Gates is on point. It should be easier for kids to go to college.

Quoted post

 

 

I think Bill Gates enjoys cheap labor.

[villain]

Originally posted by metallix+May 6 2005, 06:33 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (metallix - May 6 2005, 06:33 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>here is something i scanned for all of your benefits. make of it what you will but if you study systems you realize there not all that differen't from each other. furthermore villian you will see that paying for your eduation is part of the class-control system...

 

OR

http://img232.echo.cx/img232/3079/communed8ho.jpg

Quoted post

[/b]

 

I'm going to have to agree with you there metallix. It does seem to be a form of class control. That's something I often thought about during my brief stint in college, like why I was the poorest person there. Should have known I didn't belong. But I did get some free beer and food.

 

*I'm not quite sure what that excerpt is saying because higher educational institutions have traditionally been a cradle of political thought. Even in many foreign countries this is so... We always see student demonstrations, all over the world. I happen to think students are some of the most politically active people in the world. But I see what you are getting at with the institutions planning to indoctrinate their students. Hmm...

 

 

Originally posted by Fugazi@May 6 2005, 07:47 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-villain@May 6 2005, 06:48 PM

I think Bill Gates is on point. It should be easier for kids to go to college.

Quoted post

 

 

I think Bill Gates enjoys cheap labor.

Quoted post

 

I'm not so sure Bill Gates exploits cheap labor. I mean, he only recently moved a branch of microsoft to china. Just the other day I think. The man makes enough money to not be cheap. And he doesn't seem quite as evil as wally world. Hmm... Besides, IT companies are more interested in educated people than wage slaves.

[fermentor666]

If the Boston University and Boston College kids that live on every side of my apartment complex are any indication, we're fucked. All I see and hear are parties, hooting, hollering, drunks, Abercrombie and Fitch, Uggs, garbage, Mexicans, empty beer cans, and Jettas.

[fermentor666]

As for China with 6 times as many engineers, that's its hard luck. Who wants to live in a world of engineers?

 

 

This is why all these different jobs are being outsourced to Asia, because they have all the engineers and no one in America wants to be an engineer because it's nerdy. Just recently I read an article about how less and less American students are studying engineering in the Boston Globe. Don't ask me to quote it.

[POIESIS]

kabar, i disagree that kids are a main problem, in terms of fault,

for the way things are shaping up. yes there are many hopeless, lifeless

people lethargically dragging their feet through their lives, and only they

can turn themselves around, but my belief is that there are commonalities

throughout society, starting from two fundaments early in development..

the family unit's cohesion and the school culture.

obviously there's alot of other salient shit in the mix,

but as far as early, key development, i think it's reasonably accurate.

without a strong foundation, there's no way you can expect kids to come

out okay these days. a crumbling family unit, or a school predicated on a terrible,

stationary curriculum, with equally stagnant pedagogy..most kids don't have a chance without some other positive,

growth stimulating alternative so how would they grow as individuals, thus improving our society and culture?

if you look at studies, you'll notice that curriculum's in major cities differ in relation to class.

i know it's a really tired, preposterous theory, but for instance, funding is way higher for upper class schools

where the learning environment is safe, clean and hands on.

inner city schools tend to have a curriculum environment that doesn't have, for example, exercises where students take

their notes by listening, then correlate that information through tactile reinforcment..like say..busting out some bunsen burners

and seeing and touching and smelling the information in front of them..or whatever. this is just an example of many,

maybe a bad one, but you see what i mean.

 

it's true that alot of smart people come straight from the school system, but that

doesn't mean institutional schooling has a monopoly on intelligence or the legitimacy of one's intellectual capacities.

humans have innate characteristics that have yet to be fully understood or even realized, there is no reason to believe

that the current school system is/has to be the defacto bench mark for human development.

i realize there would have to be a tectonic shift in our society for this to happen..to build

a diffent world, but it's not far out.

[POIESIS]

also picking up from my last comment..bright kids learn despite the curriculum,

instructor or system..they have, as we all do, innate abilities to learn. the school itself

does not necessarily produce smart people. people

are already innately capable of high levels of intellect.

schools primarily need funding, and qualified teachers that are paid well with the ability to meet children's needs socially, emotionally and academically while giving them the

freedom to develop their own thoughts and processes. i think it's fair to say, generally

speaking, that kids aren't really allowed to think under the institutional cookie

cutter curriculum.

you have to have the 'right' answer, not what you

believe to be the right answer and why you believe it's right.

obedience and conformity are major factors in institutional learning.

there are stated and unstated rules that guide kids away from asserting their

own creative and logical impulses. would this not stunt individual potential and growth?

for example, in the classroom the desk represents not just a limited station of activity, but a

setting designed for a very narrow range of learning..listening and taking notes trying to pay

attention and absorb everything.

a kid sitting at his desk is there to do something, the teacher is there to declare what it should be, done a strictly specific way; the 'proper' way. it's well known all types of people learn all types of ways, yet there isn't a broad variety of learning alternatives in the

school system...there must be a better way.

anyhow.....food for thought..

[metallix]

^ I support your statement above. Its absolutely correct.

 

"in a highly developed society, the Establishment cannot survive without the obedience and loyalty of millions of people who are given small rewards to keep the system going: the soldiers and police, teachers and ministers, administrators and social workers, technicians and communications workers, garbagemen and firemen. These people-the employed, the somewhat priveleged-are drawn into an alliance with the elite. They become the guards of the system, buffers between the upper and lower classes. If they stop obeying, the system falls." -Howard Zinn - A People's History of the United States Page 649.

[KaBar2]

Hey, 90% of the wealth is owned or controlled by 5% of the population. So you have a choice: you can either scratch and claw your way up the pile to a university degree in something useful, or you can limp along without a degree. Either way, your situation has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the class system, the unfairness of it all, the social inequities of the U.S., blah, blah, blah, blah. Fuck all that. Either you have the balls to get a college education, or you don't.

 

When I decided to go to college, I was thirty-six years old, an unemployed arc welder with a high school diploma. I was receiving $99 a week UI to support a wife and a three-year-old, pay rent, buy food, pay for water, electricity, gasoline, insurance on my 1966 Dodge Power Wagon and a tattered 1976 Datsun pick-up and a Harley I had rebuilt myself from a rolling basket case. We burned scrap wood and slash obtained from logging operations in Umatilla National Forest for heat, and burned ONE lightbulb at a time in our house (turn one on, turn the other one off.) We shopped at St. Vincent de Paul and church Thrift stores. My daughter was little--we made most of her Christmas presents ourselves. It was a freezing ass cold winter with snow on the ground outside three feet deep. There was absolutely no choice.

 

We either went to college, or our daughter was destined to be trapped, economically and socially, in a small town, by my choice to be a biker. As the daughter of a Harley rider, she would be ostrasized and excluded from a lot of things in a town the size of Walla Walla. My wife and I both went back to school. It was very difficult, but we both succeeded in getting two-year AA degrees from the local community college. I got a degree in Machine Tool Technology, my wife in Accounting.

 

We then sold every thing we could, loaded up the rest and moved back to Texas. I went to work in a variety of industrial jobs in Houston, and my wife completed three more years at University of Houston, graduating with a BS in Accounting. After she obtained a stable job, I quit my job and went to Nursing school.

 

We may not be wealthy, and the schools we attended may not be prestigious, but by the two of us getting a university education, we paved the way for our daughter to be able to go to college. She has decided to follow me into Nursing.

 

I only recently finished paying off my college loans. It took about ten years. I was often broke, but I never missed a payment on the loans.

 

There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON for you not to get a college education, unless you are such a poor student that it would be a big waste of time. Either you study hard, and graduate, or you pay the price. I was a pissed-off, angry, rebellious, blame-everybody-else kid in 1969. I thought I knew everything, I hated school, I hated the Government, I was a dope-smoking, hard-drinking, anarchist dumb ass. Once I grew up (in the Marine Corps) I realized that if I was going to succeeed, it was totally, completely up to me. Once I realized all my bitching was a inappropriate, misdirected, waste of time, I started making progress. My first success after dicharging from the Marines was graduating from a FREE 18-month-long arc welder's training course in San Francisco. I worked the night shift as a janitor and went to school full-time in the day. I used that skill to feed my family, and started trying to leap-frog my way forward economically. It was not fucking easy, but it WAS possible. If somebody like me can do it, certainly the bright young men and women on this board can do it. Quit snivelling and get to WORK.

[dumy]

Originally posted by KaBar2@May 8 2005, 11:23 PM

Hey, 90% of the wealth is owned or controlled by 5% of the population. So you have a choice: you can either scratch and claw your way up the pile to a university degree in something useful, or you can limp along without a degree. Either way, your situation has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the class system, the unfairness of it all, the social inequities of the U.S., blah, blah, blah, blah. Fuck all that. .

Quoted post

 

wow, thats a pretty bold statement..do you care to elaborate?

[serum]

seems on point to me

[dumy]

Originally posted by serum@May 11 2005, 01:38 AM

seems on point to me

Quoted post

 

i'm not saying it isn't, I just want to see the repsonse

[villain]

Hey, 90% of the wealth is owned or controlled by 5% of the population. So you have a choice: you can either scratch and claw your way up the pile to a university degree in something useful, or you can limp along without a degree. Either way, your situation has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the class system, the unfairness of it all, the social inequities of the U.S.

 

Well if you ask me, that statement is self-contradictory.

[POIESIS]

bingo.

[serum]

duh.. rereading that i seemed to have missed the class system comment but i think his point is you cant change the power system so dont just sit around pumping gas for a living and say oh woe is me.

[KaBar2]

I guess it all boils down to "How much of your life do you want to spend trapped in a dead-end, no-future job?" I enjoyed being a biker. It was fun. The years I spent as an anarchist activist were pretty much wasted time, but it was a choice. It was sort of like being on vacation. Instead of working diligently to improve my situation, I threw myself into anarchist politics, wasting years "fighting the system." I blamed everybody else for my lack of progress; for the boring, low-paying jobs for which I was qualified; for the economic inequities I saw all around me. I hated "The Capitalist System," as if I were not part of it.

 

It doesn't MATTER that things are "unfair." They are, and that's all there is to be said about it. Either you choose to advance yourself despite all that inequity, or you don't. If you choose not to, don't bother blaming everybody else, because the blame rests squarely with YOU. "Life is hard." So what? "It's not fair!" So what? "The system is rigged against me!" So what? Go to college ANYWAY. There will always be obstacles that are difficult to overcome. Your job is to work hard enough to accomplish it despite the obstacles. And what will you be doing four years from now if you don't go to college? Probably the exact same thing you are doing right now. If you want to progress, you must be willing to put out the necessary effort.

One of my fellow Marines, back in the late 1970's decided that he wanted to become an aeronautical engineer. He was a mortarman in 81's platoon, a lance corporal. He came from a working-class family.

 

I got him a transfer to the battalion armory, and he worked his way up to corporal, and became my battalion weapons maintenance chief. (I was the NCOIC--the non-commissioned officer in charge; essentially, the supervisor.)

He re-enlisted, made sergeant, took out an allotment for the Montgomery G.I. Bill, saved his money, and enrolled in the University of Illinois at Champaign after he discharged from the Marines.

 

Working full-time and attending college part-time, it took him nearly ten years to complete his Engineering degree. He is the first member of his family to ever have graduated from college.

 

He's making about $100,000 a year now, and he richly deserves every cent. He is an excellent engineer, and is testing weapons for the Defense Department, with a Top Secret security classification.

 

But I knew him back when he was a jarhead lance-corporal who got shit-faced every weekend and was almost constantly getting "office hours" for one screw-up or another. Success is about 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration. Work hard, and don't bother blaming anybody else.

[villain]

I hear ya kabar. My WHOLE family is either military, or prior military, with careers built upon the military. One was a chaplain, now a priest at a very sucessful church. One in the navy who now works for NOAA. Another one who was in the navy and now works for NASA. My dad was a marine who fought in the Korean war AND vietnam. Even back throughout my history it's full of military people... Good peoples, my family. Hard working and highly intelligent. *That's just some of my family.... we are ALL military.

 

I'm doing my best to be sucessful, but I'm still going to complain about the unfairness of it all. :)

[POIESIS]

yea, i'm just not ever going to agree with kabar's views...

try and think a little more forward here..

it's not about 'blame' and 'snivelling' as you condescendingly put it,

it's about actively taking a realistic, knowledgable and

logical approach to the world you live in and the community you WANT to live in.

on the one hand you say your life is up to you..i totally agree.

on the other hand, you allude there are major problems,

but instead of coupling responsibility for yourself WITH

"fighting the system", you don't. doing something to change

yourself & situation directly correlates to improving your community.

maybe your experience WAS a waste of time,

but i don't understand how you map that to everyone else's

experience's..those of us who are taking responsibility for

ourselves AND doing something about a whole host of issues.

change is incredibly slow, people should acknowledge it takes

real motivation and dedicationi. maybe you didn't have either.

it seems to me, and maybe i'm completely reading you wrong,

that it's kind of a selfish stance in which you must only pursue

change for basically yourself, but do not pursue things that

you deem a waste of time, which would be actual activism of some

sort with knowledge about issues and change whilst ignoring root problems that people

really DO have a stake in and have the power to change.

change comes directly from people organizing and being involved.

what is your vision of the future kabar?