VAunabomr Posted May 3, 2004 Share Posted May 3, 2004 u know what u gotta say big fuckin deal they would done the same to us if not worse an they hav done worse to the kurds like gassing them in there villages with women an chilerend so personaly i dont giv a fuck damm camel jockeys an im proud to say it :loopy: :loopy2: :spin: :shook: :scramble: :dazed: :gaga: :lick: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villain Posted May 3, 2004 Share Posted May 3, 2004 Originally posted by VAunabomr u know what u gotta say big fuckin deal they would done the same to us if not worse an they hav done worse to the kurds like gassing them in there villages with women an chilerend so personaly i dont giv a fuck damm camel jockeys an im proud to say it :loopy: :loopy2: :spin: :shook: :scramble: :dazed: :gaga: :lick: Don't you care about peace? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BROWNer Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 even more scary shit, this time in brooklyn, usa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villain Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 I hate registering for all this shit.... Fucking hate crimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BROWNer Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 sorry.........is it that big a deal? 2 Men Charge Abuse in Arrests After 9/11 Terror Attack By NINA BERNSTEIN efore the World Trade Center attack, Javaid Iqbal was a Pakistani immigrant proud to be known as "the cable guy" to customers on Long Island, where he had lived for a decade and married an American. Ehab Elmaghraby, an Egyptian, had a weekend flea market stand at Aqueduct Raceway and a restaurant near Times Square where friendly police officers would joke, "Where's my shish kebab?" But within weeks of Sept. 11, 2001, both had been picked up by federal agents in an anti-terror sweep. For 23 hours a day, they were locked in solitary confinement in the harsh maximum-security unit of a federal detention center in Brooklyn - the one cited by the Justice Department's inspector general last year for widespread physical abuse of its detainees. The inspector general mentioned no specific names and cases, but now, in a federal lawsuit to be filed today and in telephone interviews from Pakistan and Egypt, the former cable technician and the former restaurateur have provided the most detailed personal accounts yet of the unit's brutality and the first to accuse specific corrections officers and wardens of abuse. The accusations are similar to those now being made against military officers guarding prisoners in Iraq. The lawsuit charges that the men were repeatedly slammed into walls and dragged across the floor while shackled and manacled, kicked and punched until they bled, cursed as "terrorists" and "Muslim bastards," and subjected to multiple unnecessary body-cavity searches, including one during which correction officers inserted a flashlight into Mr. Elmaghraby's rectum, making him bleed. At that point, the papers charge, he was confined without blankets, mattress or toilet paper to a tiny cell kept lighted 24 hours a day, and was denied adequate medical care or communication with his public defender. He said his attempts to pray or sleep were disrupted by guards banging on his door. "I was in life and I went to hell," Mr. Elmaghraby, 37, said in the interview. He spent almost a year in the special unit of the Metropolitan Detention Center, where the detention and treatment of hundreds of Muslim immigrants have since become the focus of concerns about the constitutionality of the Justice Department's counterterrorism offensive. Mr. Elmaghraby was picked up on Sept. 30, 2001, in his apartment in Maspeth, Queens, when federal agents were investigating his Muslim landlord, apparently because years earlier the landlord had applied for pilot training. Mr. Iqbal was arrested in his Long Island apartment on Nov. 2 by agents who were apparently following a tip about false identification cards. In his apartment they found a Time magazine showing the trade towers in flames and paperwork showing that he had been in Lower Manhattan on Sept. 11, picking up a work permit from immigration services. He was detained for nine months before the F.B.I. cleared him of any terrorist link. Mr. Elmaghraby and Mr. Iqbal eventually pleaded guilty to minor federal criminal charges unrelated to terrorism - Mr. Elmaghraby to credit card fraud, Mr. Iqbal to having false papers and bogus checks - but they maintain now that they did so only to escape the abuse. They were deported after serving prison terms. A spokeswoman for the Federal Bureau of Prisons, Traci Billingsley, said she could not comment on their lawsuit, which names as defendants Attorney General John Ashcroft; Kathleen Hawk Sawyer, the former head of the Bureau of Prisons; Michael Zenk, the warden of the detention center; more than a dozen correction officers and supervisors; and a jail doctor. Ms. Billingsley added that the bureau recently began an investigation to follow up evidence compiled by the inspector general against as many as 20 staff members and was now "trying to build a case that will withstand scrutiny in an administrative hearing or judicial proceeding." Though the lawsuit is not being filed as a class action, it is about more than redress for the mistreatment of two individuals singled out because of their race, religion and national origin, said Alexander Reinert, a lawyer for Koob & Magoolaghan, which joined with the Urban Justice Center, an advocacy organization, to prepare the papers. "The case is about ensuring that in times of crisis we stand by the principles that are most important to our country, and those are principles of fairness and equality embodied in the Constitution," he said. Mr. Iqbal, 37, who lost 40 pounds in detention, said he suffers from chronic digestive problems, pain and depression and is still struggling to reconcile the two sides of America he experienced. In a telephone interview from Faisalabad, Pakistan, he spoke wistfully of his early, around-the-clock jobs as a 7-Eleven clerk and as a gas station attendant in Huntington, N.Y., where customers brought him Thanksgiving dinner and Christmas gifts. But he is so haunted by memories of the terror, pain and humiliation that the federal officers inflicted on him, he said, that he starts to shake at the sight of his own brother, a policeman, in uniform. "Before I go to prison, the America that I know is a beautiful country and Americans are such beautiful, kind, humble people," he said. "When I go to prison, I see there a different face of the United States of America." His introduction to the nation's new detention policy was abrupt. Unlike Mr. Elmaghraby, who spent his whole detention in the maximum-security unit, Mr. Iqbal was housed with the general inmate population for the first two months after his arrest. But on the evening of Jan. 8, 2002, he was told that he had a "legal visit" in a room on another floor. Instead of a lawyer, he found more than a dozen federal officers waiting for him. As he and the lawsuit tell it, several officers picked him up and threw him against the wall. He said he heard one ask a senior person, "He's the one?" and when the reply was affirmative, an officer pressing Mr. Iqbal's head into the wall turned it around, looked him in the face and said, "Welcome to hell, buddy." At that, he was dragged to the floor, kicked in the stomach with steel-toed shoes and punched in the face, he said, and the officers screamed death threats and curses as they beat him up. "Then the senior person said, 'Just take him out of my sight.' " Hatred seemed to determine the rules on the unit in ways large and small, the men said. On cold days when it rained, Mr. Iqbal was left outside for hours without jacket or shoes. When he was returned to his cell drenched, officers turned on the air-conditioning, he said. At one point, the lawsuit said, Mr. Elmaghraby was mockingly displayed naked to a female staff member. The inspector general's report said last June that Mr. Ashcroft's policy was to hold detainees on any legal pretext until the F.B.I. cleared them, even though such clearances turned out to take months, not days, because they were given low priority. It said little effort was made to distinguish between legitimate terrorism suspects and the many people picked up by chance during the investigation. To the plaintiffs, the unit seemed to erase their American lives. Mr. Elmaghraby says his wife, Pilar Valerio, an American citizen of Dominican background, left him after being threatened with arrest by an F.B.I. agent when she arrived at his first court hearing. Mr. Iqbal had been separated after 41/2 years of marriage at the time he was detained but had three American stepchildren. The eldest, Paul Harrison, 22, said, "I never knew what happened," when contacted by a reporter. "I felt like he fell off the face of the earth." When the inspector general's investigators interviewed corrections officers, all but one or two denied that any detainees were abused. But according to a supplemental report issued in December, investigators later recovered videotapes that showed some of the same officers engaging in abuse. Ms. Billingsley, the Bureau of Prisons spokeswoman, said it had taken no disciplinary action while it waited for a decision about prosecution to be made by the Department of Justice's civil rights division and the United States attorney for the Eastern District of New York. "We were recently advised of the decision not to prosecute," she said. Mr. Iqbal said he was not looking for revenge. "Then there will be no difference between them and us," he explained. "They should just apologize in front of all the people of the United States of America who love freedom and justice. And they should apologize to each of us personally." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villain Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 Not really. I registered but thanks anyways.... Maybe I'm just paranoid or lazy. I dunno. I always figure I can get a story from several other sources but sometimes not. I suppose I was due to register to the NYTimes. I've been putting it off far too long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metallix Posted May 4, 2004 Author Share Posted May 4, 2004 Originally posted by BROWNer even more scary shit, this time in brooklyn, usa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HYDRO BILL Posted May 5, 2004 Share Posted May 5, 2004 I DO NOT believe that actual torture of detainees is being conducted on a wide scale in Iraq, or in Guantanamo Bay. I DO believe, however, that they are leaning on them extremely hard to reveal information, names, dates, organizational structure and plans. Perhaps one's definition of "torture" is important. Permenant maiming or blinding; rape; application of electricity; severe, life-threatening beatings; burning or cutting, suffocating or immersing up to the point of drowning repeatedly--these types of things are more along the lines of what I believe to be torture. Making people stand on a box with a hood on? I'm not sure. Definately is maltreatment. Forcing people to stay awake? Maybe it's torture. It depends. Solitary confinement? No. Confinement in a "humiliating" enclosure? (like the dog cages at Guantanamo Bay) No. I do not see that as torture. Making people strip and make a dog pile for humiliation? Well, it's definately maltreatment. But torture? I'm unsure. Now that the facts are coming out about the detention centres` abuses Kabar 2`s posts seem just stupid, sorry Kabar 2. They fucking killed some of those same " insurgents". Dead. Rationalize/ justify that. and don`t tell me that the Iraqis do that shit too. that`s true but it is hardly a good excuse. As well, just for the record, I am equally offended with any totrure of any prisoner anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poop Man Bob Posted May 5, 2004 Share Posted May 5, 2004 Originally posted by KaBar2 I DO NOT believe that actual torture of detainees is being conducted on a wide scale in Iraq, or in Guantanamo Bay. I DO believe, however, that they are leaning on them extremely hard to reveal information, names, dates, organizational structure and plans. Perhaps one's definition of "torture" is important. Permenant maiming or blinding; rape; application of electricity; severe, life-threatening beatings; burning or cutting, suffocating or immersing up to the point of drowning repeatedly--these types of things are more along the lines of what I believe to be torture. Making people stand on a box with a hood on? I'm not sure. Definately is maltreatment. Forcing people to stay awake? Maybe it's torture. It depends. Solitary confinement? No. Confinement in a "humiliating" enclosure? (like the dog cages at Guantanamo Bay) No. I do not see that as torture. Making people strip and make a dog pile for humiliation? Well, it's definately maltreatment. But torture? I'm unsure. From the Taguba Report: "Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees; pouring cold water on naked detainees; beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair; threatening male detainees with rape; allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell; sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick, and using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee." The full text of the report can be found here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poop Man Bob Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 Oy vey. http://www.economist.com/images/20040508/20040508issuecovUS400.jpg'> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villain Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 Good zine. ^^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poop Man Bob Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 Josh Marshall discusses Rumsfeld's possible resignation: ... One thing that makes Rumsfeld more vulnerable is that he's already lost what was once a key pillar of support: hawks and neocons. Just recently, Bill Kristol and Bob Kagan wrote a piece in the Weekly Standard that all but called on Bush to fire Rumsfeld. For all these reasons it's difficult for me to see where Rumsfeld's equilibrium comes from. Yet there's an added political question. Let's say Rumsfeld resigns on Friday. The election is still six months away. And the nation is at war. So a new Defense Secretary would be needed more or less immediately. That would open up a very uncomfortable prospect for the administration. Confirmation hearings for a new Sec Def would, I think, inevitably turn into a national forum for discussing the management of the Pentagon, the planning for the war and the lack of planning for the occupation. The new nominee would be drawn into all sorts of uncomfortble public second-guessing of what's happened up until this point. Sure, that's stuff under Rumsfeld. But, really, it's stuff under Bush -- the civilian head of the United States military. That, I have to imagine, is something the White House would like to avoid at any cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Im Broke Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 dont really care... but if they were in the pokie anyway for terroristic(spl?) actions and what not (havent really looked that into it) y not torture them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poop Man Bob Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 You win nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIMS Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 Originally posted by BROWNer sorry.........is it that big a deal? 2 Men Charge Abuse in Arrests After 9/11 Terror Attack By NINA BERNSTEIN my cousin was held in Salt Lake for 4 weeks after he was pulled over. The INS put a hold on him because he is a light skinned Kenyan and his middle name is, Usama. They said his pasport was not valid proof of ctizenship (my uncle is american), and held him an extra week because when the embasy was blown up in Nairobi all records were lost. There is also a law that kept my family from getting him out, saying that his bond had to paid by someone who had lived in the state for more than two years. Intolerable! -About Iraq, torture is now more openly suppoerted than ever. join the ranks-http://www.clearancejobs.com/index.php?action=show_all&who=1987 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BROWNer Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 over at c-span you can watch the most recent press conference with rumsfeld.. he gets pretty drilled, and in my view, falters pretty bad on this whole thing. also his testimony in front of the house and senate committee is coming up this friday, and i think you can catch it on there as well.. www.c-span.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeking Posted May 7, 2004 Share Posted May 7, 2004 red cross today admitted that it had known about the torture for months, had notified our govt. about it several times, but they did nothing. they didnt say (or i didnt hear) why they didnt go public before now, but either way, when it rains it pours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BROWNer Posted May 7, 2004 Share Posted May 7, 2004 whoa..check this shit: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/a...article6149.htm U.S. soldiers who detained an elderly Iraqi woman last year placed a harness on her, made her crawl on all fours and rode her like a donkey, Prime Minister Tony Blair 's personal human rights envoy to Iraq said Wednesday..."She was held for about six weeks without charge," the envoy told Wednesday's Evening Standard newspaper. "During that time she was insulted and told she was a donkey. A harness was put on her, and an American rode on her back."_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poop Man Bob Posted May 8, 2004 Share Posted May 8, 2004 Shit is about to get a WHOLE LOT more fucked. Read this article from MSNBC: ... But Rumsfeld warned the committee that the worst was yet to come. He said he had looked at the full array of unedited photographs of the situation at Abu Ghraib for the first time Thursday night and found them “hard to believe.” “There are other photos that depict incidents of physical violence towards prisoners, acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhumane," he said. “... It’s going to get a good deal more terrible, I’m afraid.” Rumsfeld did not describe the photos, but U.S. military officials told NBC News that the unreleased images showed U.S. soldiers severely beating an Iraqi prisoner nearly to death, having sex with a female Iraqi female prisoner and “acting inappropriately with a dead body.” The officials said there was also a videotape, apparently shot by U.S. personnel, showing Iraqi guards raping young boys ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BROWNer Posted May 8, 2004 Share Posted May 8, 2004 yea, this shit is getting truly fucking insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BROWNer Posted May 8, 2004 Share Posted May 8, 2004 you dudes heard what rush limbaugh said about this shit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CIPHER_one Posted May 8, 2004 Share Posted May 8, 2004 Originally posted by BROWNer you dudes heard what rush limbaugh said about this shit? No, I did not, Captain Suspense... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poop Man Bob Posted May 8, 2004 Share Posted May 8, 2004 Originally posted by CIPHER_one No, I did not, Captain Suspense... Link from TPM: Rush Limbaugh from yesterday ... This is no different than what happens at the Skull and Bones initiation and we're going to ruin people's lives over it and we're going to hamper our military effort, and then we are going to really hammer them because they had a good time. You know, these people are being fired at every day. I'm talking about people having a good time, these people, you ever heard of emotional release? You of heard of need to blow some steam off? Another example of how a war for liberal democracy can't be run by the most illiberal people in our society. And just what is Rush's idea of a 'good time'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HYDRO BILL Posted May 8, 2004 Share Posted May 8, 2004 Well, Rush Limburger is pretty hypocritical. He wants to put drug addicts in jail and then admits that he has been addicted to pills for years....Hmmmm. I guess it`s okay as long as they`re legal drugs, (Oxycontin?) On another note, did anyone see when Rummy was shirking questions and he said "Oh, we left the files? Oh we, were working on them all night and we left them behind.." priceless. worst liar ever. Thanks for the links PMB, good reading. Kabar? `ello? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fugazi Posted May 8, 2004 Share Posted May 8, 2004 Peace is an unattainable ideal in this situation. There is always going to be a problem when contractors outside of the military are hired and then given control over military police. Prisons are going to be cut throat when interrogation is at hand. Thousands of cases will go unreported. That's life for you though. And sure, we can all be aghast and offended, but it won't stop, it can't be stopped, it's the juggernaut of war... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BROWNer Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 Originally posted by BROWNer here's hershs actual piece..http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact and another.. read up^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poop Man Bob Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 http://www.newyorker.com/images/online/040517onslpo_r13198_p427.jpg'> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poop Man Bob Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 Thanks for the heads up, Brown. Sad, disturbing article, but well worth the read. Hersh is the man. Secrecy and wishful thinking, the Pentagon official said, are defining characteristics of Rumsfeld’s Pentagon, and shaped its response to the reports from Abu Ghraib. “They always want to delay the release of bad news—in the hope that something good will break,” he said. The habit of procrastination in the face of bad news led to disconnects between Rumsfeld and the Army staff officers who were assigned to planning for troop requirements in Iraq. A year ago, the Pentagon official told me, when it became clear that the Army would have to call up more reserve units to deal with the insurgency, “we had call-up orders that languished for thirty or forty days in the office of the Secretary of Defense.” Rumsfeld’s staff always seemed to be waiting for something to turn up—for the problem to take care of itself, without any additional troops. The official explained, “They were hoping that they wouldn’t have to make a decision.” The delay meant that soldiers in some units about to be deployed had only a few days to prepare wills and deal with other family and financial issues. ...snip... No amount of apologetic testimony or political spin last week could mask the fact that, since the attacks of September 11th, President Bush and his top aides have seen themselves as engaged in a war against terrorism in which the old rules did not apply. In the privacy of his office, Rumsfeld chafed over what he saw as the reluctance of senior Pentagon generals and admirals to act aggressively. By mid-2002, he and his senior aides were exchanging secret memorandums on modifying the culture of the military leaders and finding ways to encourage them “to take greater risks.” One memo spoke derisively of the generals in the Pentagon, and said, “Our prerequisite of perfection for ‘actionable intelligence’ has paralyzed us. We must accept that we may have to take action before every question can be answered.” The Defense Secretary was told that he should “break the ‘belt-and-suspenders’ mindset within today’s military . . . we ‘over-plan’ for every contingency. . . . We must be willing to accept the risks.” Resign, Rumsfeld. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heavyLox Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 well im gald WE must be able to accept the risks. although im sure the the shit hts the fan WE will be stuck upshit creak without a paddle and HE will be safely hidden away with GWB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimsøn Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 This whole situation (Both the "war" and the torture) is fucking disgusting. The way in which our country has acted since 9/11 is fucking disgusting. The worst part about this whole situation is that I live in this country yet I'm so helpless to make things right. Even worse is everyone I see who is in charge/can make a difference cares more about they're own selfish desires than actually improving the quality of life of the people we're so called "liberating". I know for a fact that I'm not as knowledged on this subject as most others in this thread, but I feel like so far we haven't done jack shit to actually help those poor people. This whole situation just disgusts and angers me. Grr :hatred: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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