HYDRO BILL Posted May 1, 2004 Share Posted May 1, 2004 Its stupid, juvenile and irresponsible, should those soldiers and anyone involved be reprimanded....?...sure no doubt. -do our soldiers in any engagement get treated with respect/or treated under the guidelines of the geneva convention...highly fucking unlikely. It is not just America...lighten up. -doink Lighten up? How `bout I electify your nutsack? Stop trying to justify these actions. It`s disgusting. The end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PalestineOne Posted May 1, 2004 Share Posted May 1, 2004 i wonder how history will look back on the american empire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekro Posted May 1, 2004 Share Posted May 1, 2004 More information on the mercenaries we hire to do the dirty work for us: http://www.20six.co.uk/weblogEntry/x8ww81cjf0fa Check out the soldier's bullshit excuse: Yesterday Frederick said he would deny abuse, claiming he was not shown Geneva Convention rules on how to treat captives. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/tm_ob...-name_page.html Everyone should read www.dailykos.com. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekro Posted May 1, 2004 Share Posted May 1, 2004 http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,276...1206725,00.html US military in torture scandal Use of private contractors in Iraqi jail interrogations highlighted by inquiry into abuse of prisoners Julian Borger in Washington Friday April 30, 2004 The Guardian Graphic photographs showing the torture and sexual abuse of Iraqi prisoners in a US-run prison outside Baghdad emerged yesterday from a military inquiry which has left six soldiers facing a possible court martial and a general under investigation. The scandal has also brought to light the growing and largely unregulated role of private contractors in the interrogation of detainees. According to lawyers for some of the soldiers, they claimed to be acting in part under the instruction of mercenary interrogators hired by the Pentagon. US military investigators discovered the photographs, which include images of a hooded prisoner with wires fixed to his body, and nude inmates piled in a human pyramid. The pictures, which were obtained by an American TV network, also show a dog attacking a prisoner and other inmates being forced to simulate sex with each other. It is thought the abuses took place in November and December last year. The pictures from Abu Ghraib prison have shocked the US army. Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt, deputy director of operations for the US military in Iraq, expressed his embarrassment and regret for what had happened. He told the CBS current affairs programme 60 Minutes II: "If we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect, we can't ask that other nations do that to our soldiers." Gen Kimmitt said the investigation began in January when an American soldier reported the abuse and turned over evidence that included photographs. "That soldier said: 'There are some things going on here that I can't live with'." The inquiry had centred on the 800th Brigade which is based in Uniondale, New York. The US army confirmed that the general in charge of Abu Ghraib jail is facing disciplinary measures and that six low-ranking soldiers have been charged with abusing and sexually humiliating detainees. Lawyers for the soldiers argue they are being made scapegoats for a rogue military prison system in which mercenaries give orders without legal accountability. A military report into the Abu Ghraib case - parts of which were made available to the Guardian - makes it clear that private contractors were supervising interrogations in the prison, which was notorious for torture and executions under Saddam Hussein. One civilian contractor was accused of raping a young male prisoner but has not been charged because military law has no jurisdiction over him. Hired guns from a wide array of private security firms are playing a central role in the US-led occupation of Iraq. The killing of four private contractors in Falluja on March 31 led to the current siege of the city. But this is the first time the privatisation of interrogation and intelligence-gathering has come to light. The investigation names two US contractors, CACI International Inc and the Titan Corporation, for their involvement in Abu Ghraib. Titan, based in San Diego, describes itself as a "a leading provider of comprehensive information and communications products, solutions and services for national security". It recently won a big contract for providing translation services to the US army. CACI, which has headquarters in Virginia, claims on its website to "help America's intelligence community collect, analyse and share global information in the war on terrorism". Neither responded to calls for comment yesterday. According to the military report on Abu Ghraib, both played an important role at the prison. At one point, the investigators say: "A CACI instructor was terminated because he al lowed and/or instructed MPs who were not trained in interrogation techniques to facilitate interrogations by setting conditions which were neither authorised [nor] in accordance with applicable regulations/policy." Colonel Jill Morgenthaler, speaking for central command, told the Guardian: "One contractor was originally included with six soldiers, accused for his treatment of the prisoners, but we had no jurisdiction over him. It was left up to the contractor on how to deal with him." She did not specify the accusation facing the contractor, but according to several sources with detailed knowledge of the case, he raped an Iraqi inmate in his mid-teens. Col Morgenthaler said the charges against the six soldiers included "indecent acts, for ordering detainees to publicly masturbate; maltreatment, for non-physical abuse, piling inmates into nude pyramids and taking pictures of them nude; battery, for shoving and stepping on detainees; dereliction of duty; and conspiracy to maltreat detainees". One of the soldiers, Staff Sgt Chip Frederick is accused of posing in a photograph sitting on top of a detainee, committing an indecent act and with assault for striking detainees - and ordering detainees to strike each other. He told CBS: "We had no support, no training whatsoever. And I kept asking my chain of command for certain things ... like rules and regulations." His lawyer, Gary Myers, told the Guardian that Sgt Frederick had not had the opportunity to read the Geneva Conventions before being put on guard duty, a task he was not trained to perform. Mr Myers said the role of the private contractors in Abu Ghraib are central to the case. "We know that CACI and Titan corporations have provided interrogators and that they have in fact conducted interrogations on behalf of the US and have interacted the military police guards at the prison," he said. "I think it creates a laissez faire environment that is completely inappropriate. If these individuals engaged in crimes against an Iraq national - who has jurisdiction over such a crime?" "It's insanity," said Robert Baer, a former CIA agent, who has examined the case, and is concerned about the private contractors' free-ranging role. "These are rank amateurs and there is no legally binding law on these guys as far as I could tell. Why did they let them in the prison?" The Pentagon had no comment on the role of contractors at Abu Ghraib, saying that an inquiry was still in progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoink Posted May 1, 2004 Share Posted May 1, 2004 Originally posted by HYDRO BILL ... Lighten up? How `bout I electify yur nutsack? Stop trying to justify these actions. It`s disgusting. The end. -this is pretty much why I avoid these threads, asides from the comments of a few most of you are so fucking one sided its not funny. -how bout this, fuck off, dont come at me like I dont know anything. -Im not justifying anything you douche, im pointing something out, everyone on this forum is so quick to jump the gun. read my entire post next time. Now its the end. cause honestly its such a futile effort for me to be wasting my time on the Interweb arguing. especially with a Canadien. ;) Ziiiiiing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villain Posted May 1, 2004 Share Posted May 1, 2004 Originally posted by yoink -this is pretty much why I avoid these threads, asides from the comments of a few most of you are so fucking one sided its not funny. -how bout this, fuck off, dont come at me like I dont know anything. -Im not justifying anything you douche, im pointing something out, everyone on this forum is so quick to jump the gun. read my entire post next time. Now its the end. cause honestly its such a futile effort for me to be wasting my time on the Interweb arguing. especially with a Canadien. ;) Ziiiiiing! It's true, abuses have been suffered on both sides, but the difference is the resistance is a loosely knit organization and we are representing a sovereign nation. Those Iraqis that capture our troops could be psychopaths, opportunists, terrorists, disgruntled, or just plain mad cause we blew up their fucking family. Those soldiers are representing us as a country and our commander in cheif. We set the example. As for those contractors I really don't think they belong there in the first place. And they answer to some authority so they should be responsible. These are american civilians. They are subject to our law. If Iraq had law (interim government???) they would have to answer to Iraq's law as well. This is a severe breakdown of any kind of order we are trying to impose in Iraq and it will only steel the resistence to such a flawed order. On the other hand by turning this situation over to the proper authorities we may have won some respect among the iraqi populus. I just want to thank the brave soldier who used his better judgement to bring an end to these injustices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BROWNer Posted May 1, 2004 Share Posted May 1, 2004 hmm..now the brits are in on it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Quickwood Posted May 1, 2004 Share Posted May 1, 2004 "angers Bush", right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KING BLING Posted May 1, 2004 Share Posted May 1, 2004 The media only does the right thing when popular sentiment sways that way - the wars declining home support has led to more war critical (in substance) reporting. This is one of millions of atrocities our country plays some part in. It is reported due to sensationalism. I care but it is nothing new, just getting more attention... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GamblersGrin Posted May 2, 2004 Share Posted May 2, 2004 im tired of hearing about these iraqi prisoners being tortured. i believe it is being focused on bc these abuse practices are occurring on a global scale and the world is watching. my point is, is that prison abuse is a regular practice in america. i suppose it is legitimate when you torture/harrass your own citizens but ethically wrong when you do it to p.o.w.s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaBar2 Posted May 2, 2004 Share Posted May 2, 2004 Genuinely torturing prisoners is wrong. Fostering prison conditions that are brutal and dehumanizing and humiliating is wrong. But applying "psychological pressure" to soften prisoners up for interrogation is apparently okay. I have a neighbor, a former Marine lance corporal, who was wounded in the stomach and captured on a ground patrol outside the wire at Khe Sanh, and held as a POW in North Vietnam for six years. He was tortured in a variety of ways, including being hanged by his wrists, with his arms tied behind his back for hours, being suspended by the "parrot's perch", being beaten, especially on the bottoms of his feet, being kept in a very small cell covered with shit and piss and decaying food, being kept in the dark for weeks and so forth. He survived it. Pretty much an okay guy, too, one of the nicest people I ever met. And a good Democrat. Plenty of American POW's were simply tortured to death during Vietnam. And plenty of Viet Cong and North Vietnamese were tortured to death in interrogation in South Vietnam, too. The quest for information, the hatred of the enemy, the anger about one's friends and comrades being killed, all contribute to an atmosphere of brutality, revenge and physical punishment. The Egyptians and other Middle Eastern countries are certainly nobody to criticize others about mistreating prisoners, they use torture as a routine even against their own citizens in criminal matters, not to mention in efforts to gain important military information from captured enemy soldiers. I think a lot of these loud protestations are actually face-saving nonsense. "Gambling! There is gambling going on in this establishment!" "Here's your winnings, sir." "Oh, thank you." I DO NOT believe that actual torture of detainees is being conducted on a wide scale in Iraq, or in Guantanamo Bay. I DO believe, however, that they are leaning on them extremely hard to reveal information, names, dates, organizational structure and plans. Perhaps one's definition of "torture" is important. Permenant maiming or blinding; rape; application of electricity; severe, life-threatening beatings; burning or cutting, suffocating or immersing up to the point of drowning repeatedly--these types of things are more along the lines of what I believe to be torture. Making people stand on a box with a hood on? I'm not sure. Definately is maltreatment. Forcing people to stay awake? Maybe it's torture. It depends. Solitary confinement? No. Confinement in a "humiliating" enclosure? (like the dog cages at Guantanamo Bay) No. I do not see that as torture. Making people strip and make a dog pile for humiliation? Well, it's definately maltreatment. But torture? I'm unsure. I think that attacking the United States and it's allies is a very, very stupid thing to do if you want to live a long and peaceful life. And BTW, the British government uses these VERY SAME TECHNIQUES against the Irish Republican Army, and nobody seems too concerned. Maybe it depends on how close you are to the car bombs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KING BLING Posted May 2, 2004 Share Posted May 2, 2004 OSAMA *Edit for drunken mistakes...:burned: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HYDRO BILL Posted May 2, 2004 Share Posted May 2, 2004 here`s a plan Maybe you should stop invading other countries! Zoink- this is pretty much why I avoid these threads, asides from the comments of a few most of you are so fucking one sided its not funny. -how bout this, fuck off, dont come at me like I dont know anything. -Im not justifying anything you douche, im pointing something out, everyone on this forum is so quick to jump the gun. read my entire post next time. Now its the end. cause honestly its such a futile effort for me to be wasting my time on the Interweb arguing. especially with a Canadien. Ziiiiiin Canadian with an `a` I did read your ignorant post, I quoted the majority of it. And tell me you won`t be running for our border when you get drafted, provided you`re not too old. You were trying to justify the torture, as was Kabar. You need to imagine that the tables were turned. Someone is invading your country. Do you fight fair? or do you everything in your power to defend your precious freedom? Again and again I will say, Yes, it`s a double standard. Yes, it sucks. Yes, I understand the pressure that these people are under BUT you have to be the christian soldiers you claim to be. And I appreciate your comment about your opinion that this isn`t widespread, Kabar, but to what do you base it? These idiots photographed the act. it certainly suggests to most people that these abuses are happening often, and everyone admits that heaps of Iraqi civilians are getting killed. You will never "win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people" with this shit and I am sorry to say that terrorism is going to become commonplace to my many friends in America. And come on, pissing on someone`s face? I agree that leaning on detainees for information may be necessary but get creative. I would suggest playing them that eamon track on repeat for a week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PalestineOne Posted May 2, 2004 Share Posted May 2, 2004 yo bling bling whats with the link? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adderall Posted May 2, 2004 Share Posted May 2, 2004 hahahah :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BROWNer Posted May 2, 2004 Share Posted May 2, 2004 Originally posted by BROWNer hmm..now the brits are in on it tip of the iceberg? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaBar2 Posted May 2, 2004 Share Posted May 2, 2004 Hydro Bill There was no "precious freedom" in Iraq to start with. The people there lived under a brutal dictatorship, whose notorious murders of thousands of ordinary citizens, whose horrific GENUINE TORTURE by Saddam Hussein's secret police caused hundreds to be permenantly blinded, deafened, hands to be amputated as punishment and so forth. Saddam Hussein's sons maintained an entire facility dedicated to raping the wives and daughters of anyone who crossed them. Their evil, horrific practices rival those of the Nazis, and it was widespread throughout the entire country, except those areas favored by Saddam, where his family and tribe predominated. Fallujah was a favored city. They profitted by the rest of Iraq's misfortune, which is one of the reasons they are trying to resist the authority of the interim government and the U.S. and Coalition forces. As I have said before, it may be necessary to flatten the entire place. Ever seen a photo of Berlin after the fall of Nazi Germany? Well, whether they say so or not, the U.S. military forces in Iraq are prepared to surround Fallujah, and bomb it to rubble. The people of Fallujah would be very wise to stop fucking around and submit to the legitimate authority of the occupation forces and surrender. They might start by refusing to assist the terrorists there, and point them out so that they can be arrested. I can't wait to see how the all-Iraqi "Fallujah Protection Army" deals with these idiots setting roadside bombs against the patrolling U.S. forces. Something tells me they won't ever make it to a courtroom. I do not support the idea of torturing prisoners, even if it means missing out on important information about enemy positions, ambushes, etc. However, I do support the idea of removing them from Iraq and holding them in camps in Cuba for however long it takes to establish a functioning democratic form of a constitutional republic in Iraq. There is always a concern that once they are released they will return to Iraq and to their terrorist practices of the past, so all in all, I think killing them on the battlefield is the best solution. I bet that U.S. forces in Iraq who are being attacked by these people would have a rather more pragmatic viewpoint about torture and military intelligence. "If the choice is between us getting blown up by this guy's buddies, or him being tortured to tell us where they are, then I choose getting the goddammned information out of his ass any way that is necessary. Fuck him. He's a terrorist, not a soldier." Of course, those of us safely here in the United States have the luxury of being concerned about the prisoners' human rights. But if they attacked Houston, I think my opinions about extreme interrogation methods would probably change. War is hell, and that is the truth. The guerrillas fighting against the U.S. in Iraq are the moral equivalent of the Ku Klux Klan after the Civil War. They serve no government, and they are not under any legitimate government's command. Iraq surrendered. Anybody still fighting our forces now is "fair game." It is entirely possible for those individuals to choose to live peacefully. They are choosing to be murderers and terrorists, instead. When we capture them, they may expect to be treated harshly. But not tortured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T=E=A=S=E Posted May 2, 2004 Share Posted May 2, 2004 ABORT MISSION!!! I say we -pull out- as if Iraq's a piece of pussy we've been fucking without a condom on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villain Posted May 2, 2004 Share Posted May 2, 2004 It is important to not let our personal feelings interfere with our professionalism. There are other ways of making people talk other than torture. Truth serum. Hypnosis. Persuasion. A slew of verbal tactics (provided our translators are plentiful and fluent enough). Even bribery and cutting deals. I tend to view this barbarism as an underlying problem of misunderstanding the iraqi people in general. I saw on the news the other day that the L.A. police are adopting new tactics in fighting gangs. That is by being more involved in the communities. To get to know the people there better. It is a police officers job to know the community. To protect and serve. Not as it is now where most people view the police as to be avoided because they are seen as the enemy. How is this supposed to stop gang violence? If the police are seen as the enemy and not the peoples friend then the gangs will have more power and more recuits. There are uncanny parallels with iraq and what's happening there right now. If we fight with hatred in our hearts and show no standards, how will they ever learn to trust us? If we level a city of people just because they were males of "fighting age" isn't that prejudice? This cannot help our relations. Our army is not designed for these types of police actions. Put us up against a better equipped and better organized ARMY and we fare better than this! Policing is about figuring out the exceptions to the rule. The deviants among the population. The iraqi people are not the enemy. But if we go there like an army and fight like an army we are going to find ourselves fighting an army against us. I think this whole situation is very fucked up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HYDRO BILL Posted May 3, 2004 Share Posted May 3, 2004 Word up villain I agree Also, to respond to Kabar... Dude, America`s foreign policy doesn`t care about human rights. They love dictators! Who gave Iraq all the weapons they are using to kill your soldiers? And then sold weapons to Iran as well? Hmmmm? Don`t even pretend to care about the Kurds if you support this war. The chemical weapons that Iraq used to kill the kurds were American. And come on Agent Orange is still killing Vietnamese. I was there recently. America and China are the only two countries in the world that won`t support a ban on landmines. Like I said before, China, Sudan,Saudi,North Korea etc. etc.. If you`re going to pretend that it is about caring for human rights you have a lot of doors to knock on. Oil pipeline through all the `Stans. Afghani Heroin. The NYSE needs the trillions of dollars these products make to survive. Your friend are dying for the fatcats to get fatter. your Moneys all that moneys to money- Homer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!@#$% Posted May 3, 2004 Share Posted May 3, 2004 amnesty international has determined that the torture of iraqi civilians by u.s. and coalition forces is a systematic problem.. there is not a chance in hell for decent relations between the u.s. and the middle east now.. i read an iraqi discussing that the situation under saddam was preferable because although he used torture the americans try to detroy iraqi pride and self respect.. i hope all the bible thumping american christians in support of this war burn in allah's special hell for the infidels. i'm completely disgusted with the government and its terrorist military machines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_El Mamerro Posted May 3, 2004 Share Posted May 3, 2004 Seymour Hersh sheds further light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeking Posted May 3, 2004 Share Posted May 3, 2004 it's always worse to be stabbed in the back, then punched in the mouth. !@#$%, this should maybe get it's own thread, but i'll just stick it here for now. my ex took this in cambodia. figured you might like it. nothing like growing up, having land mines as bath toys, right? guess where they got em?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BROWNer Posted May 3, 2004 Share Posted May 3, 2004 Originally posted by El Mamerro Seymour Hersh sheds further light. here's hershs actual piece..http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villain Posted May 3, 2004 Share Posted May 3, 2004 this sucks.... So much work to be done..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!@#$% Posted May 3, 2004 Share Posted May 3, 2004 land mines: wars' deadly legacy damn seeking. thanks, that photo is ...ill that freaked me out a little so i found this stuff: (free) CLICK TO HELP CLEAR LAND MINES http://www.clearlandmines.com/ "Thank you. Your click will clear 21 cm2 of mine infested terrain, paid for by: CAW TCA Canada" ADOPT A MINEFIELD http://www.landmines.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mental invalid Posted May 3, 2004 Share Posted May 3, 2004 PR 101 why has colin powel not been on every televsion station in the arab world, including that waste of news al jeezie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeking Posted May 3, 2004 Share Posted May 3, 2004 !@#$%, funny youd post that. for years i've been saying that i wanted to go to afghanistan and dig up landmines... originally kind of a joke, then as a half cocked idea of self destruction...now i'm actually working towards that very sort of thing. strange how life works out. my ex is trying to get me to go there and set up an ambulance service, since they don't have a single ambulance in the entire country apparently. if it goes down, i'll get a hold of you. the pay will suck but who needs money when you can have a pet monkey? the picture def. freaked me out at first too. something about those masks, and the horror of all the stuff, and their complete obliviousness to it is spooky as shit. she's told me the most insane stories about the place. she lives there during the summers, working with the government on microfinancing and all kinds of crazy things i dont understand. last summer she was in some little village where foreigners never go, and someone, who'd probably never seen a white person before, was staring at her as he drove past. he accidentally ran into a fruit cart, so all of a sudden all the people run out and beat the guy to death for fucking up their fruit. one of a handful of people she saw killed over a 3 month period. the country is out of hand....they just have absolutely no concept of a world where life is worth anything. of course that kind of thing tends to happen when 1/3rd of a countries population is murdered 30 years ago. seeks/off topic and rambling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!@#$% Posted May 3, 2004 Share Posted May 3, 2004 i don't wanna derail the thread, so i'll just say lemme know what's up if it happens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villain Posted May 3, 2004 Share Posted May 3, 2004 How very noble and selfless of you !@#$%. I heard somewhere that the russians have this steamroller thing they can put on the front of their tanks to take out mines. That would be handy for something like that. :D I wonder how metal detectors work. If we got satellites that can penetrate miles into the ground there should be some kind of super damn metal detector/mine detector. *aha! I figured it was some kind of ELF. But they call it VLF (very low frequency). I love www.howstuffworks.com There are metal detectors that can detect types of metal and depth.... Actually I started to realize that these metal detectors are based on electromagnetism and I thought about it and realized this could possibly trigger a mine. I looked into mine detectors and it's a whole other ball game. Unfortunately I can't find anything on the howstuffworks site about the mine detection theory. I'll keep looking maybe I'll find something. I'm willing to bet though that satellites could do this over large swaths of land at a time. I retract that statement. Most mine detectors ARE various forms of electromagnetic pulse. It's just that those types of mine detectors can possibly trigger SOME types of mines.... Hmmm... I'm not EOD obviously.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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