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IRAQ IS A DISASTER


TheoHuxtable

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http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cf...=40&ItemID=3410

 

There's an article on some of the irregular weapons being used. I actually know someone who accidentally drove over an unexploded cluster bomblet.

I've always been concerned about the amount of DU being used. It seems kinda pointless to use SABO rounds anymore with the abscense of any enemy tanks.

Here's some more interesting stuff:

 

http://nucnews.net/nucnews/links.htm

 

http://www.uwec.edu/grossmzc/schmolaj.html

 

I hadn't heard about this "new" napalm. Sounds like something you could make in your garage though. I don't see how this is new.

Let's not forget the tactical nukes that bypass treaty laws somehow.

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A depleted uranium APDS round ("sabot", not SABO--it's French) does not explode. It is a SOLID DART PROJECTILE like a great big uranium "nail." The term "APDS" stands for "Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot." The projectile is fired from a 105mm tank gun. The projectile part that actually strikes the enemy tank is made of DU, which is a VERY DENSE (not "hard") metal, considerably denser than steel. The DU projectile is carried down the tank gun's barrel rifling cradled in and partially enclosed within the "sabot", which is made out of aluminum, and is more or less about like a motorcycle engine crankcase. As the projectile-sabot combination exits the tank gun barrel, the two-piece sabot opens up from wind resistance and falls off the DU projectile, striking the ground and then bouncing and tumbling along the ground in the direction of the target. Tankers must be careful when firing APDS rounds if there are allied troops dug in out in front of the tank, because the "discarded" sabot bouncing along the ground could easily kill anyone they struck.

 

The DU projectile is much smaller than 105 mm in diameter, about 2-1/2 feet long, and shaped like a sharp pointed "dart" with flight-stabilizing wings in the back. Because the DU projectile is much smaller than a regular HE tank round, IT'S VELOCITY IS MUCH GREATER. It travels much faster towards the target, and strikes the enemy tank with tremendous power. Sometimes it penetrates the tank, but often they hit and distinegrate (resulting in DU fragments, powder and dust in the area of the target) or hit and ricochet off. Even if the projectile doesn't penetrate, it causes "spalling" of the armor ON THE INSIDE OF THE ENEMY TANK TURRET, and the spall flies about inside the enemy tank like shrapnel, killing the tank crew, and sometimes detonating the enemy tank rounds in their turret racks, resulting in a series of large explosions and a fire.

 

There are hunting rifle cartridges that use this same principle, called "Accelerator" rounds. If one uses a 7mm/ .30-'06 Accelerator cartridge in a .30-'06 rifle, the 7mm bullet is carried down the .30-'06 barrel (.30 inch is the same as 7.62mm) incased in a plastic "sabot", which is blown off the 7mm projectile when it exits the barrel. This makes the 7mm bullet much, much higher velocity than a 7.62mm bullet, and is a much "flatter shooting" "flat trajectory" bullet. (Most bullets travel in an arc like a rainbow--the slower and heavier the bullet the greater arc the trajectory will have.) Accelerator bullets are used to kill medium sized game (white-tailed deer, for instance) at a little bit of a distance (say 200 yards or more) because the trajectory is "flat."

 

APDS rounds do not "explode." They are SOLID DEPLETED URANIUM. They crash through cast steel tank hulls like a piece of hard cheddar through chilled butter.

 

I would definately agree, however, that breathing delpleted urarium dust is very bad for one's health.

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Ahhh... Kabar you are right. I'm obviously not armor, I've never studied armor TMs.... I've only heard about it from talking to armor people. So I assumed it was spelled "SABO" and was an acronym for somthing. So thanks for correcting me. It turns out that I can correct you on something as well. I found this on periscope:

 

The M32 76-mm gun is the main armament of the U.S. M41 Walker Bulldog light tank.

 

The gun fires the following projectiles: armor-piercing with tracer (AP-T), fin-stabilized discarding sabot AP (APFSDS-T), canister (CAN), high-explosive (HE), HE anti-tank (HEAT-T), high-velocity AP (HVAP-T), HVAP-DS-T and smoke (WP).

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Villain---

 

You are correct about the DU rounds for the newer, faster wheeled combat vehicles. It has been over twenty years since I was a tanker (in the National Guard) and the tank I crewed on was outdated even then. I was tank crew on an M60 tank, which was so old, it used optical convergance to range the main gun. The tanks with which our unit replaced the M60, the M60A3, used much more modern IR gunsights to range the main gun.

 

I never actually got to shoot a DU round, which doesn't exactly bring tears to my eyes, frankly. I wasn't too interested in being around DU if I didn't have to be. We fired APDS training rounds (painted blue) which were loaded with a steel projectile the same weight and shape as the DU live round.

 

I started off as a loader, worked up to tank driver (now that was fun!) and then tank gunner. I shot "Expert" the very first time I went to the gunnery range. Next step up was Tank Commander ("TC") but I got out of the Guard and joined a motorcycle club.

 

I know very little about modern combat armor. The young Marines and soldiers of today are equipped with totally different weapons and gear than we had. I got out of the Marines when we still had the M16A1. Since then, the infantry was issued updated M16A2 rifles, and then the new M4 (which is based on the M16A2, but with a collapsible stock, a much shorter barrel, and a Picatinny rail from which to hang all manner of accessories like flashlights, etc.)

 

Most of my acquaintences own AR15 rifles very similar to the M16A1, but the younger guys are switching to AR15's that look very much like the M4, because that's what they were trained on in the Army.

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Originally posted by fatalist@Oct 21 2004, 11:19 AM

Pretty much every day now the President is telling us that things are improving in Iraq and the Iraqi people really desire freedom and the democracy that comes with it - if only they'd stop blowing us up for long enough to realize it.

 

But has anyone ever thought of the possibility that maybe freedom just isn't the most important thing to that society? I mean America was founded on freedom. It's definatly what's important here. But here's a news flash to those who had absolutly no foreign policy experience before they took office (that means you Mr. President) - societies don't always value certain aspects of life equally. The Iraqis happen to be muslims that value their religon more than their freedom. I think I heard the perfect example of this the other night, "Ask an Iraqi man if he'd rather give up his freedom and be placed under the rule of Sadam again or get to have his freedom but his sister gets to wear a miniskirt in public, I promise you he'll choose Sadam." I totally agree, he would choose Sadam. That's because his religon is more important to him than his freedom. Maybe we should consider that the next time we decide to go bring freedom to an oppressed society - unless that society happens to live on top of billions of barrels of oil, then they deserve freedom and they deserve it now.

 

This fact that religon is more important to the muslims than freedom is also why the President's claim that, "The terrorists hate us because we're free." is so ridiculous. Again religon is more important to these people than freedom. The terrorist don't hate us because we're free. They hate us because ever single fiber of American society is completly at odds with their interpretations of the Koran. They hate us because of our strip clubs, violent video games, undisciplined kids, and fast food. They hate us because of the decline in the family structure, the secularization of our schools, our acceptance of homosexuality. They hate us because we support Israel. They hate us because of our history of imperialistic foreign policy. And now they hate us even more because we invaded Iraq. But they most certainly do not hate us because we're free.

 

 

damn...govenment class is the shit...

Yeah you think they give a fuck about religion they dont give two shits about they own fam nevermind religion theyre just trying to survive people here (Iraq for all the tube watchers and college types) dont give a fuck about that shit they might play that shit off like they do but when it comes down these motherfuckers will stab their brothers sisters freinds lol lol I like that word in the back so they can what surivive make a buck thats the true face of Islam here and you ask me how I know ,I interact with these fucks all day I study them because thats what I do I study people find out what makes em tick so I can kill em you might hear the call for prayer 5 times a day but most of em all they wanna do is make some quick cash
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Yeah you think they give a fuck about religion they dont give two shits about they own fam nevermind religion theyre just trying to survive people here (Iraq for all the tube watchers and college types) dont give a fuck about that shit they might play that shit off like they do but when it comes down these motherfuckers will stab their brothers sisters freinds lol lol I like that word in the back so they can what surivive make a buck thats the true face of Islam here and you ask me how I know ,I interact with these fucks all day I study them because thats what I do I study people find out what makes em tick so I can kill em you might hear the call for prayer 5 times a day but most of em all they wanna do is make some quick cash

 

....

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AbovE--

 

Well, guy, I for one, am just glad that the U.S. is sending such compassionate, sensitive and well-educated soldiers such as yourself to trouble spots around the world to represent our nation and our values. No doubt, the experience of a few months association with conscientious American idealists such as yourself will bring democracy that much quicker to that sad, troubled land, and to it's long-suffering people.

 

And I agree, that was one long-ass sentence. Were you like, under fire or something when you wrote it? It seems a little manicky.

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Originally posted by KaBar2@Dec 4 2004, 08:02 PM

AbovE--

 

Well, guy, I for one, am just glad that the U.S. is sending such compassionate, sensitive and well-educated soldiers such as yourself to trouble spots around the world to represent our nation and our values. No doubt, the experience of a few months association with conscientious American idealists such as yourself will bring democracy that much quicker to that sad, troubled land, and to it's long-suffering people.

 

And I agree, that was one long-ass sentence. Were you like, under fire or something when you wrote it? It seems a little manicky.

1.I started out being compassionate doesnt work they still try to kill you

2.I know who and what Im fighting for no need for your liberal sarcasm

3.Giving a gift to someone who doesnt want it tends to be

pretty frustrating

4.We were under attack so yeah I had to type fast

5.I hate punctuation leatherneck

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Originally posted by AbovE@Dec 4 2004, 06:38 PM

Yeah you think they give a fuck about religion they dont give two shits about they own fam nevermind religion theyre just trying to survive people here (Iraq for all the tube watchers and college types) dont give a fuck about that shit they might play that shit off like they do but when it comes down these motherfuckers will stab their brothers sisters freinds lol lol I like that word in the back so they can what surivive make a buck thats the true face of Islam here and you ask me how I know ,I interact with these fucks all day I study them because thats what I do I study people find out what makes em tick so I can kill em you might hear the call for prayer 5 times a day but most of em all they wanna do is make some quick cash

 

 

What's up AbovE? I saw your tag up in Fort Benning.

Yeah I know... you can't do much with people who are in survival mode. These most basic needs can't be met so why the hell are they going to go along with some bullshit rhetoric? It ain't helping them telling them they are free and things are better when they are saying it was better under saddam. That's sad right there.

 

*you know i often like to type all lowercase as protest against capital letters (hahaha) but it makes it kinda hard to read*

BE SAFE!

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Homeless Iraq vets showing up at shelters

By Mark Benjamin

Published 12/7/2004 1:40 PM

 

WASHINGTON, Dec. 7 (UPI) -- U.S. veterans from the war in Iraq are beginning to show up at homeless shelters around the country, and advocates fear they are the leading edge of a new generation of homeless vets not seen since the Vietnam era.

 

"When we already have people from Iraq on the streets, my God," said Linda Boone, executive director of the National Coalition for Homeless Veterans. "I have talked to enough (shelters) to know we are getting them. It is happening and this nation is not prepared for that."

 

"I drove off in my truck. I packed my stuff. I lived out of my truck for a while," Seabees Petty Officer Luis Arellano, 34, said in a telephone interview from a homeless shelter near March Air Force Base in California run by U.S.VETS, the largest organization in the country dedicated to helping homeless veterans.

 

Arellano said he lived out of his truck on and off for three months after returning from Iraq in September 2003. "One day you have a home and the next day you are on the streets," he said.

 

In Iraq, shrapnel nearly severed his left thumb. He still has trouble moving it and shrapnel "still comes out once in a while," Arellano said. He is left handed.

 

Arellano said he felt pushed out of the military too quickly after getting back from Iraq without medical attention he needed for his hand -- and as he would later learn, his mind.

 

"It was more of a rush. They put us in a warehouse for a while. They treated us like cattle," Arellano said about how the military treated him on his return to the United States.

 

"It is all about numbers. Instead of getting quality care, they were trying to get everybody demobilized during a certain time frame. If you had a problem, they said, 'Let the (Department of Veterans Affairs) take care of it.'"

 

The Pentagon has acknowledged some early problems and delays in treating soldiers returning from Iraq but says the situation has been fixed.

 

A gunner's mate for 16 years, Arellano said he adjusted after serving in the first Gulf War. But after returning from Iraq, depression drove him to leave his job at the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. He got divorced.

 

He said that after being quickly pushed out of the military, he could not get help from the VA because of long delays.

 

"I felt, as well as others (that the military said) 'We can't take care of you on active duty.' We had to sign an agreement that we would follow up with the VA," said Arellano.

 

"When we got there, the VA was totally full. They said, 'We'll call you.' But I developed depression."

 

He left his job and wandered for three months, sometimes living in his truck.

 

Nearly 300,000 veterans are homeless on any given night, and almost half served during the Vietnam era, according to the Homeless Veterans coalition, a consortium of community-based homeless-veteran service providers. While some experts have questioned the degree to which mental trauma from combat causes homelessness, a large number of veterans live with the long-term effects of post-traumatic stress disorder and substance abuse, according to the coalition.

 

Some homeless-veteran advocates fear that similar combat experiences in Vietnam and Iraq mean that these first few homeless veterans from Iraq are the crest of a wave.

 

"This is what happened with the Vietnam vets. I went to Vietnam," said John Keaveney, chief operating officer of New Directions, a shelter and drug-and-alcohol treatment program for veterans in Los Angeles. That city has an estimated 27,000 homeless veterans, the largest such population in the nation. "It is like watching history being repeated," Keaveney said.

 

Data from the Department of Veterans Affairs shows that as of last July, nearly 28,000 veterans from Iraq sought health care from the VA. One out of every five was diagnosed with a mental disorder, according to the VA. An Army study in the New England Journal of Medicine in July showed that 17 percent of service members returning from Iraq met screening criteria for major depression, generalized anxiety disorder or PTSD.

 

Asked whether he might have PTSD, Arrellano, the Seabees petty officer who lived out of his truck, said: "I think I do, because I get nightmares. I still remember one of the guys who was killed." He said he gets $100 a month from the government for the wound to his hand.

 

Lance Cpl. James Claybon Brown Jr., 23, is staying at a shelter run by U.S.VETS in Los Angeles. He fought in Iraq for 6 months with Alpha Company, 1st Battalion, 2nd Marines and later in Afghanistan with another unit. He said the fighting in Iraq was sometimes intense.

 

"We were pretty much all over the place," Brown said. "It was really heavy gunfire, supported by mortar and tanks, the whole nine (yards)."

 

Brown acknowledged the mental stress of war, particularly after Marines inadvertently killed civilians at road blocks. He thinks his belief in God helped him come home with a sound mind.

 

"We had a few situations where, I guess, people were trying to get out of the country. They would come right at us and they would not stop," Brown said. "We had to open fire on them. It was really tough. A lot of soldiers, like me, had trouble with that."

 

"That was the hardest part," Brown said. "Not only were there men, but there were women and children -- really little children. There would be babies with arms blown off. It was something hard to live with."

 

Brown said he got an honorable discharge with a good conduct medal from the Marines in July and went home to Dayton, Ohio. But he soon drifted west to California "pretty much to start over," he said.

 

Brown said his experience with the VA was positive, but he has struggled to find work and is staying with U.S.VETS to save money. He said he might go back to school.

 

Advocates said seeing homeless veterans from Iraq should cause alarm. Around one-fourth of all homeless Americans are veterans, and more than 75 percent of them have some sort of mental or substance abuse problem, often PTSD, according to the Homeless Veterans coalition.

 

More troubling, experts said, is that mental problems are emerging as a major casualty cluster, particularly from the war in Iraq where the enemy is basically everywhere and blends in with the civilian population, and death can come from any direction at any time.

 

Interviews and visits to homeless shelters around the Unites States show the number of homeless veterans from Iraq or Afghanistan so far is limited. Of the last 7,500 homeless veterans served by the VA, 50 had served in Iraq. Keaveney, from New Directions in West Los Angeles, said he is treating two homeless veterans from the Army's elite Ranger battalion at his location. U.S.VETS, the largest organization in the country dedicated to helping homeless veterans, found nine veterans from Iraq or Afghanistan in a quick survey of nine shelters. Others, like the Maryland Center for Veterans Education and Training in Baltimore, said they do not currently have any veterans from Iraq or Afghanistan in their 170 beds set aside for emergency or transitional housing.

 

Peter Dougherty, director of Homeless Veterans Programs at the VA, said services for veterans at risk of becoming homeless have improved exponentially since the Vietnam era. Over the past 30 years, the VA has expanded from 170 hospitals, adding 850 clinics and 206 veteran centers with an increasing emphasis on mental health. The VA also supports around 300 homeless veteran centers like the ones run by U.S.VETS, a partially non-profit organization.

 

"You probably have close to 10 times the access points for service than you did 30 years ago," Dougherty said. "We may be catching a lot of these folks who are coming back with mental illness or substance abuse" before they become homeless in the first place. Dougherty said the VA serves around 100,000 homeless veterans each year.

 

But Boone's group says that nearly 500,000 veterans are homeless at some point in any given year, so the VA is only serving 20 percent of them.

 

Roslyn Hannibal-Booker, director of development at the Maryland veterans center in Baltimore, said her organization has begun to get inquiries from veterans from Iraq and their worried families. "We are preparing for Iraq," Hannibal-Booker said.

 

 

 

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DAMN THIS IS SOME FUCKED UP SHIT................

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Suicide bomber believed behind Mosul attack

U.S. investigators believe device detonated inside mess tent

 

Updated: 3:25 p.m. ET Dec. 22, 2004

 

WASHINGTON - U.S. military investigators examining evidence in a mess tent at a U.S. camp near the northern Iraqi city of Mosul believe that a suicide bomber was responsible for the devastating lunchtime explosion that killed 22 people and injured 69 others, Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff, said Wednesday.

 

He said the investigators were expected to announce the results of their investigation shortly, but that their preliminary conclusion was that a suicide bomber was responsible for the attack, one of the deadliest of the war.

 

Myers provided no details on the identity of the bomber at a Pentagon news briefing, saying only that the blast was triggered by "an improvised explosive device worn by an attacker."

 

Earlier in the day, military experts had debated whether the source of the blast Tuesday at Forward Operating Base Marez was a rocket fired by insurgents or a suicide bomb.

 

Pentagon officials, who initially told NBC News that the explosion appeared to be caused by a 122mm rocket fired into the tent by insurgents, later backed away from that assertion and stated that investigators had reached no conclusions about the source.

 

Device was loaded with pellets

Prior to Myers' announcement, military officials said one of the most compelling pieces of evidence collected so far was that the explosive device contained BB-sized pellets, which could indicate a bomb, either planted or carried by a suicide bomber.

 

On Tuesday, a radical Sunni Muslim group, the Ansar al-Sunnah Army, claimed responsibility for the attack and said it was a “martyrdom operation” — a reference to a suicide bomber — that targeted the mess hall.

 

Whatever caused the explosion, the officials acknowledged that the attack appeared to have been well-planned, and precisely timed to strike the mess hall tent just as hundreds of American and Iraqi soldiers, and private contractors, sat down to lunch.

 

13 soldiers among dead

The dead included 18 Americans — 13 service members and five U.S. civilian contractors — and three Iraqi National Guard members. The 22nd victim was listed by the U.S. military command in Baghdad as an "unidentified non-U.S. person."

 

Halliburton Co., a Houston-based company whose subsidiary Kellogg Brown & Root supplies food service and other support activities for U.S. troops in Mosul, on Wednesday said that four of its employees had died in the attack, correcting an earlier statement that put the toll at seven. It was not immediately clear who the fifth U.S. civilian contractor listed by the U.S. military command worked for.

 

Of the 69 wounded, 44 were U.S. military personnel and the remainder American civilians, Iraqi troops, and other foreigners, the military command said.

 

About 50 people — most of them injured soldiers from Mosul — arrived on an Air Force C-141 transport plane at Ramstein Air Base in Germany on Wednesday for treatment at nearby Landstuhl Regional Medical Center, said Maj. Mike Young, a base spokesman.

 

The hospital was expecting at least eight patients who were in critical condition, Landstuhl spokeswoman Marie Shaw said.

 

At the military hospital near Mosul airfield, doctors and orderlies treated dozens of soldiers for burns, shrapnel wounds and damage to their eyes.

 

“This is the worst we have seen in the 11 months since we have been here,” said Master Sgt. David Scott, chief ward master for the hospital.

 

As the injured received treatment, their comrades fanned out through the city in a new effort to root out insurgents.

 

Troops block five bridges

Early Wednesday, the U.S. troops blocked Mosul’s five bridges over the Tigris River that link the western and eastern sectors of the city. As warplanes flew overhead, U.S. soldiers could be seen conducting sweeps through the eastern neighborhoods of Muthanna, Wahda and Hadabaa.

 

In a sign of the of the simmering tensions, most schools in the city were closed and few cars and people could be seen on the streets. Even traffic policemen were not at major intersections as usual.

 

Tuesday's attack was the latest in a week of deadly strikes across Iraq that highlighted the growing power of the insurgents in the run-up to the Jan. 30 national elections.

 

President Bush said Tuesday the explosion should not derail the elections and that he hoped relatives of those killed know that their loved ones died in “a vital mission for peace.”

 

“I’m confident democracy will prevail in Iraq,” he said.

 

Mosul, Iraq’s third-largest city, was relatively peaceful in the immediate aftermath of the fall of Saddam Hussein’s regime last year. But insurgent attacks in the largely Sunni area have increased dramatically in the past year — particularly since the U.S.-led military offensive in November to retake Fallujah from militants.

 

Mortar attacks on U.S. bases, particularly on the huge white tents that serve as dining halls, have been frequent in Iraq for more than a year. Just last month, a mortar attack on a Mosul base killed two troops with Task Force Olympia, the reinforced brigade responsible for security in much of northern Iraq.

 

Horrific scene

Jeremy Redmon, a reporter for the Richmond (Va.) Times-Dispatch, who was in the mess tent when the attack occurred, described a chaotic scene.

 

The force knocked soldiers off their feet and out of their seats as a fireball enveloped the top of the tent and shrapnel sprayed into the area, Redmon said.

 

Then, with people screaming and thick smoke billowing, soldiers turned their lunch tables upside down, placed the wounded on them and gently carried them into the parking lot, he said.

 

Sgt. Kyle Wright said he was about to take a bite of chocolate cake when the blast knocked him out of his chair. Two other Virginia National Guardsmen picked him up and rushed him out of the chow-hall tent on Forward Operating Base Marez.

 

“I kind of went into the air,” Wright told Redmon as he lay in a hospital near Mosul airfield, recovering from wounds to his leg and back. “When I came to, I looked up and I saw open sky.”

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here's something to think about.....

 

In Iraq gasoline for cars is free, BUT there can be up to a 24 hour wait to get it.

Yes... people will sit in their cars for a full day just to get the tank filled.

The insurgence blame the americans for taking all the oil,

the US supporters blame the insurgence for blowing up pipelines.

Saddam used to pay tribes to protect the lines on their turf.

Now the US does but other tribes will sabotage the lines to steal the job.

 

so what do gas sellers do?

a - Play legal and give away free gas to very angry people.

b - sell the gas at a markup of 100X cost

c - smuggle their gas out of the country to sell

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LONDON, England -- Public health experts have estimated that around 100,000 Iraqi civilians have died since the United States invaded Iraq in March last year.

 

 

that will teach those terrorists a lesson!!!

 

 

While the major causes of death before the invasion were heart attack, stroke, and chronic illness, the risk of dying from violence after the invasion was 58 times higher than in the period before the war.

 

"With the admitted benefit of hindsight and from a purely public-health perspective, it is clear that whatever planning did take place was grievously in error,"

 

 

hmmm, public health perspective?...

 

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/29/...aths/index.html

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Guest -MOE LESTER-

my boy just got back from iraq...he was in the marines and was 2nd wave going into fallujah, which was 7 minutes after the first....he said he was manning the SAW and had killed people...he also said he saw lots of fucked up shit lke little kids being killed

 

 

that video made my day....i want to see more live iraq footage...the fucking media makes iraq look look like a picnic to the american public

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