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Raels

RETALIATION!!!

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A lot of people are talking about/asking for IMMEDIATE retaliation by The American Government. I'm no Political Scientist or Military Strategist but this seems to be the stupidest/most self-defeating solution to what's happened.

 

Acting on this right away without careful consideration of every possible future outcome and effect could mean the start of World War 3 or even worse. The intentions and specific motivations behind this whole f**ked up tragedy are still unclear. For all we know this "move" could be intended as a catalyst for FURTHER ACTS of terror (or war) that have been planned to follow directly behind this one.

 

Don't underestimate the people who did this.

 

Personally, I think everyone should take into consideration that running out and "turning some third world country into a parking lot" will do nothing but strengthen the existing hatred of America that motivated the WTC & Pentagon crashes in the first place, not to mention the fact that more innocent dead people will help no one. Somebody WILL pay for this, but if it's the wrong people paying then the fire grows stronger against us.

 

This is the time for serious STRATEGY, not reflex. One false move could be suicidal for our government & those who support us.

 

..Just some thoughts about what's going on & how it might affect us. Everyone stay level-headed and pay respects to the recently deceased as well as the Middle-Easterners in your area.

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we have to respond.

but it's very important that we are sure of who our enemy is.

 

the biggest problem is the kind of war this will be. we can easily attack and level pakistan or whatever other country is determined to be the enemy...the problem with this is that our enemy is not a country, but terrorists. and these terrorists are already in NYC, DC, and all over the US (not to mention the world). They are trained to assimilate and not "look like terrorists." And once we make an attack, i assure you the terrorists in this country will instinctively retaliate.

 

we shouldn't fear military attacks from foreign countries...we can handle that.

we need to worry about a much more dangerous and unpredictable attack from unknown terrorists.

 

[This message has been edited by KASTsystem (edited 09-13-2001).]

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Originally posted by KASTsystem:

And once we make an attack, i assure you the terrorists in this country will instinctively retaliate.

 

This is basically how I feel. Terrorism is a relatively new form of war that we aren't fully prepared for. Our vulnerabilities here are obvious, and easy to take advantage of.

 

What a frustrating situation.

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Originally posted by Raels:

Terrorism is a relatively new form of war that we aren't fully prepared for.

 

we lead the world in terrorism. its our sense of denial thats not fully prepaired.

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Originally posted by seeking innocence:

we lead the world in terrorism. its our sense of denial thats not fully prepaired.

 

 

seeking, please explain.

i personally disagree with you.

we do not physically attack any other countries...at the most, we financially support other countries, particularly Israel.

I don't define that as terrorism.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by KASTsystem (edited 09-13-2001).]

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Originally posted by KASTsystem:

we do not physically attack any other countries...at the most, we financially support other countries, I don't define that as terrorism.

 

 

 

osama bin laden hasent physically blown anything up, all he's done is fund it. is he still a terrorist. do some research bro. find out who trained bin laden.

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Guest HESHIANDET

unkie sam

 

------------------

stonecutters#1

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Originally posted by seeking innocence:

osama bin laden hasent physically blown anything up, all he's done is fund it. is he still a terrorist. do some research bro. find out who trained bin laden.

 

 

yes, he is a terrorist.

he trained them. he funded them. he supplied them with everything they needed.

they look up to him as their spiritual leader.

 

i don't think anyone trained bin laden.

he is an extremist with a lot of money and is capable of carrying out his own political ideaologies.

 

america, on the other hand, is not creating havoc in other countries because of their extremist (or even conservative) views. we are not attacking countries and forcing capitalism, democracy, and freedom on them.

 

you're entitled to your opinion, but you still have not supportted it. all i'm asking is for an example of how america is a terrorist nation.

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Originally posted by Seym1has2no3fiends:

Didn't the U.S. train Bin Ladin? I could be wrong though... but uh... either way, I aggree with raels!

 

i know the U.S. trained a lot of the hijackers. i don't know if we trained bin laden or not...maybe. either way, we didn't train him with the knowledge or expectation that it would be used in terrorist attacks or against us.

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dude, im not even gonna go through it again. your really have absolutely no idea about things. and im not saying that as insult, its just the truth. do some reading man. read through the threads relating to the recent incidents, theres alot of good info there.

 

we trained osama bin laden and his followers. we taught them espianage, torture, military tactical planning, as well as supplied them with weapons, money, and the intelligence to use it efficently. we went into niceragua (or was it panama, i cant think right now) and not only killed some tens of thousands of inncoent people, but we put a puppet regime into office that was arguably more corrupt than the one we took out. do your homework man....

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Originally posted by Seym1has2no3fiends:

Didn't the U.S. train Bin Ladin? I could be wrong though... but uh... either way, I aggree with raels!

 

In the early 80's the CIA gave weapons, secret weapon technology and billions of dollars to rebels in Afghanistan that were fighting the Soviet occupation.

 

I'm not sure if Bin Laden was a direct recipient of what the CIA was giving out, but he was a part of the revolution, so he was a recipient in one way or another. Many weapons his terrorists use, I'm sure, were at one time US Military property.

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seeking,

 

i don't know why you have to be so condescending...

 

i never professed to know everything about all of this.

 

i'm trying to respond as calmly as possible.

i feel that i've done nothing but try to contribute to an intelligent and thought provoking conversation. if you feel that i stated wrong information, i will gladly hear, listen, and learn from your argument provided it has supportting info.

 

i am a reasonable person. i understand the need to know before i speak. that is why i have so few posts. i only post when i feel like i have something to contribute. if you ever disagree with me, i'd prefer that you did so in a non-insulting tone...i won't hear it otherwise.

 

thank you.

 

(if you're curious as to what i'm talking about, it's comments like "do your homework man" and your obvious frustration with supplying info: "dude, im not even gonna go through it again...")

 

[This message has been edited by KASTsystem (edited 09-13-2001).]

 

[This message has been edited by KASTsystem (edited 09-13-2001).]

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Originally posted by javier yardbirds:

In the early 80's the CIA gave weapons, secret weapon technology and billions of dollars to rebels in Afghanistan that were fighting the Soviet occupation.

 

I'm not sure if Bin Laden was a direct recipient of what the CIA was giving out, but he was a part of the revolution, so he was a recipient in one way or another. Many weapons his terrorists use, I'm sure, were at one time US Military property.

 

 

thank you for responding and informing in a constructive way. this is what makes the posts worthwhile and intelligent.

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Guest beardo

id say seeking was pretty civil and informative man.

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i wasnt trying to insult you, it was the truth. you really have no clue. which is fine, theres a million things i dont know, but why tell me something, and begin to argue, when you realize before hand that you have no clue about the matters your discussing? im sure you are an intelligent person, and i didnt mean to offend you. i just dont understand why you would claim someone was wrong, when your only basis for argument was none.

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Originally posted by beardo:

id say seeking was pretty civil and informative man.

 

ok...

 

i apologize for any ill feelings.

this whole event has everyone very emotional, including myself. i'm sorry.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by KASTsystem (edited 09-13-2001).]

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yeah, Usama definately sat in our training camps, we actually set up some of those base camps we sent the cruise missles into, he was 'our boy' for a while... we also trained Sadaam Hussein... americas problem isn't finding dogs to lie down with, we just don't seem to want to shoot them when they become rabid

 

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2 Can Sam

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seeking,

 

i appreciate your reply, so i'll consider this specific issue squashed.

 

but i'm still asking, (out of complete ignorance...but i want to learn more) how is the U.S. a terrorist nation?

please don't be frustrated with me...i really can't comprehend how we are a terrorist nation, so please inform me...i'm willing to listen.

 

thanks for your patience with my previous outburst...

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and again i'll say, do some reading. im not gonna sit here and hand feed things to you, id rather you looked em up yourself and then saw it as unbiased.

 

do searches for 'school of the americas' look into the panama invasion, the iran contra scandal, south american and columbian 'war on drugs' anything dealing with manuel noriega. there is a ton of info out there and im not real good with names and dates, but trust me on this. look into the chile, and the events surrounding the chiquita banana corporation. read up on the facts surrounding the start of the vietnam war and the bullshit that we added to that event. and finally, ask yourself one question, if we are so innocent of such things, why, for the first time ever, did the UN kick us off the 'human injustices' board?

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look....regardless of who trained who, what weve done to others and what others have done to us the fact of the matter is that in most cases past, present and future the lives lost in these conflicts were the lives of people that had no say so or bearing in these situations....these types of retaliations are what have gotten us to this point we are at today, instead of focusing on the problem they (the US included) focus on the things closest to the problem and then proceed to say "did you see that, thats what we can do to you"....it doesnt get us anywhere....its really disturbing to me when assasination of a admited terrorist is something we would never think of doing yet killing innocent people continues to be a perfectly acceptable (in the eyes of the goverment)part of war....

 

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brick, brick ,brick...thats how i be up against your girlfriends ass...

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now is not the time to lay quick judgement and blame. i hope to god america doesn't strike without doing major research. one american leader said "bomb the hell out of them." who is "they" anyway?

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yea my mom told me today...im ukranian but i was born here and my dad was too but his parents came here. My mom came here long ago when she was liek 18. She told me today about the thing in the early 80's. Many young 18 17 16 yr old guys died in the soviet union and ukraine which was part of it. Many innocent people were killed. All because America supplied Afghanistan with powerful weapons, which, at the time, the Soviets could not afford. An now look. Those heartless bastards turn, as they have before, and spat in our face. Many people do not know this. We were allys with them. They are fuckin backstabbers, and Osama is a coward who is too much of a fucking pussy to show his face. I hope he fuckin suffers just as he has made our WORLD suffer. And now we ask so many of the nations we have hurt in the past to come to us in aid. And sure enough, the Russians and everyone else has our back...

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"They go into villages. They haul out families. With the children forced to watch, they castrate the father. They peel the skin off his face. They put a grenade in his mouth and pull the pin. With the children forced to watch, they gang-rape the mother and slash her breasts off. And sometimes, for variety, they make the parents watch while they do these things to the children.

This is nobody's propaganda! There have been over a hundred thousand American 'Witnesses for Peace' who've gone down there, and they have filmed, photographed and witnessed these atrocities immediately after they've happened, and documented thirteen thousand people killed this way -- mostly women and children.

These are the activities done by the Contras. The Contras are the people President Reagan called 'freedom fighters.' He said: 'They are the moral equivalent of our founding fathers.'

 

the contras, if you all have forgotten, where the guerilla forces that we armed, trained, funded and even named. they were our answer to the government in nicaragua. the above statements were written by a former AMERICAN CIA leader in latin america.

 

read mroe here... http://www.thewinds.org/archive/war/a102896e.html

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another thing we did was supply the iraqi army with weapons and support during their war in the 80's with iran. a war which left over a million iranians dead. we continued to support them even after the war. then, a year or so later, kuwait starts flooding the world with oil (figurativly, not literaly) this starts bringing prices down, and messing with iraq's economy, as well as gas prices around the world. SO, saddam then decides he'll take kuwait over and stabalize his countries economy. america, all of a sudden so interested in the democratic freedom of kuwait (a country who was never democratic to begin with, and is still not to this day) decides they must intervene. well, we all know what happend after that. iraqi soldiers surrenderd in nearly every confrontation on record, more US soldiers were killed by friendly fire and accidents than by iraqi soldiers, and we dropped bombes on hundreds of thousands of innocent citizens. in the ten years sicne the war, we've had trade embargos against iraw. this means they can not get outside food or medical support. these embargos, which effect NO ONE BUT INNOCENT CIVILLIANS have murdered more than a million women and children in iraq. the embargos, which were put in place and maintained by the US governement.

 

just thought you might like to know a couple things your governemnt has done in the last 20 years.

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