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Spain's new government to pull troops out of Iraq

Last Updated Mon, 15 Mar 2004 8:10:45

 

MADRID - Spain's new Socialist government said Monday that it would pull 1,300 peacekeepers out of Iraq, as evidence mounted that al-Qaeda was responsible for bomb attacks that killed 200 people on the eve of general elections.

 

 

Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero

(AP photo)

 

"The Spanish troops which are in Iraq will be returning home," Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero said in one of his first interviews after his party defeated the ruling Popular Party on Sunday.

 

He said plans will be solidified once he is sworn in as prime minister and has a chance to consult with defence officials and allies.

 

The Socialist victory was labelled an upset that was not expected before 10 bombs went off in commuter trains in and around Madrid on Thursday. A total of 200 people died and 1,500 were injured.

 

Al-Qaeda, which has claimed responsibility for the attack, said it targeted Spaniards because their government had supported the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq.

 

 

* FROM MARCH 14, 2004: Madrid bombing suspect known for al-Qaeda connections

 

 

Zapatero said the Spanish troops will likely come home before June 30, when the U.S. administration is scheduled to hand power back to Iraqis.

 

Spain had been been due to take charge of a stabilization force in central south Iraq on July 1.

 

Poland's envoy to NATO, Jerzy Nowak, said Monday that his country is willing to stay in command of the force until the end of 2004 if Spain withraws its troops.

 

Zapatero, 43, asked the crowd gathered to cheer his election victory to join him in a minute of silence to remember the train bombing victims.

 

"At this moment I think of the lives that were broken by terror on Thursday," he said.

 

"My most immediate priority will be to fight terrorism."

 

Opinion polls going into Sunday's vote showed as many as 90 per cent of Spaniards opposed the war against Iraq and Spain's continuing role in military activities there.

 

 

Spanish voters at a polling station.

(AP photo)

 

Voters turned out in large numbers, many wearing black arm-bands in remembrance of the bombing victims.

 

Some of them accused President Jose Maria Aznar of manipulating public opinion by immediately blaming the bombings on the Basque separatist group ETA, despite evidence to the contrary.

 

With 99 per cent of the vote counted, the Socialists were on track to win 164 seats in the country's 350-seat parliament, just shy of an absolute majority.

 

The ruling conservative Popular Party was tipped to win 148 seats.

 

The Socialist party ran Spain from 1982 to 1996, but was defeated that year in the face of corruption allegations.

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^that's why i added the 'tough to obtain' disclaimer with the dilution factor.

dilution is an extremely important factor in most contaminants, especially all that would feasibly be available

(after all, at my old job, radioactive tridium and iodide waste was disposed of down the drain..i bet even P-32 and S-35 get dumped into water supplies)

 

 

but don't take my word for it..

 

from: A Perspective on the Dangers of Plutonium

W. G. Sutcliffe, R. H. Condit, W. G. Mansfield, D. S. Myers, D. W. Layton, and P. W. Murphy

 

 

Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory

 

 

April 14, 1995

 

Following the seizure of 10 ounces of plutonium at the Munich airport in August 1994, some press accounts stated that terrorists could kill "hundreds of thousands of people" by introducing plutonium into a municipal water supply. In response to such incorrect and misleading statements, we describe the acute and long-term health effects that can arise from ingesting or inhaling various amounts of plutonium. Our estimates indicate that plutonium introduced into drinking water supplies would produce a radiation dose much less than normal background, and could kill only a very few people (by inducing cancers that might take years to appear). We also estimate the (considerably greater) risks associated with the inhalation of plutonium, clarifying press claims that "a tiny speck ... can cause lung cancer." We estimate the number of people that might die of cancer if terrorists were to introduce plutonium into the atmosphere in a large city. This paper provides a scientific perspective for evaluating possible terrorist threats.

 

source:

http://www.llnl.gov/csts/publications/sutcliffe/

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Guest imported_Tesseract

Man, Aznar will not be remembered as a good president...in the last year he showed complete apathy and tried to cover up one of the biggest ecological disasters, backed up Bush while his people didnt, and tried to mislead them and put the blame on ETA over this....dude fucked up

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eh... i still don't like low dosage levels of accumulating irradiated metal and water and whatever else.... food, and powerlines and airwaves. Not to mention all the ozone holes we have now. Is it hot in here? I need to make a tinfoil hat. :scowl:

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Guest BROWNer

serious shit>

 

New Spanish PM threatens to pull troops from Iraq

Tue, 16 Mar 2004 0:06:11

 

MADRID - Spain's prime minister-designate, Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, has threatened to withdraw 1,300 Spanish soldiers serving in Iraq. Zapatero says it will happen by July, if the United Nations doesn't take over operations in the country.

 

Zapatero's Socialist party won a surprise victory in Sunday's national elections, which were held in the shadow of last week's bombings in Madrid.

 

"The war in Iraq was a huge disaster, the occupation continues to be a huge disaster," said Zapatero on Spanish radio. "It only generated more violence and hatred and the lesson has to be taken."

 

Zapatero went on to suggest U.S. President George W. Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair are liars, and promised to pull Spain's troops out of Iraq if the coalition won't hand over operations to the UN.

 

It was hardly the actions of a leader trying to build international bridges.

 

But Manuela Mesa of Madrid's Centre for Peace Studies applauds Zapatero's honesty. "We think it's very important to do it as quick as possible and if Spain's government want to be there, it should be there with the United Nations' agreement."

 

All indications are that Spain is in for a radical shakeup that will significantly shift its spot on the world stage. The man expected to become Spain's new foreign minister, Miguel Angel Moratinos, says it's time to rethink the country's entire partnership with the United States.

 

"Trying to check what has been done rightly, or what has been done wrongly, and then we have to imagine a different policy, a different instrument to fight terror. If we continue the way it has been trying to defeat terror we will never succeed," he said.

 

Those sentiments may drive Spain back into the more familiar arms of its neighbours in Germany and France. But some conservatives in those countries are criticizing the election result, saying Spaniards are appeasing the very extremists who killed and injured so many.

 

Retired Spanish diplomat Fernando Schwartz rejects that claim. He believes outgoing Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar brought defeat on himself by ignoring widespread opposition to the war in Iraq.

 

After last Thursday, Schwartz says, he saw old sentiments gaining new strength. "The bombs opened the flesh, opened the wound. Suddenly the pent-up feeling that we had been betrayed a year ago by going to war had been dormant there like an old infection suddenly, boom, it came out."

 

The pace of events in Spain has been swift. Over just four days, citizens have borne the shock of a terrible tragedy, marched by the millions united in grief, watched as smaller groups railed in anger against their own government and then tossed that government out of office.

 

Spain's incoming government faces the challenge of consoling the nation even as it reconsiders the fundamental question of its place in the world.

http://www.cbc.ca/storyview/MSN/2004/03/15/spain040315

.

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Guest imported_Tesseract
Originally posted by hottnickels

i'm not surprised at all..

i was there for a lot of protests, public opinion clearly opposed the war..

then this.

 

but...

it sends a scary message

 

I dunno how scary the message is...if Bush remains in power it sure is cause it creates a whole new system of balances and a big difference inside the west...if Kerry wins i think that the whole Iraq thing will be qualified as one of the biggest mistakes and a new perspective will be set.

 

Whats very interesting with spain right now is that its one of the few occasions that the people really talks and has the power to dictate pollitics. After that line up of events, they burned Aznar to the ground for very specific reasons and on the othre hand their message is too loud to be ignored...i mean, after all that, even if the socialists wanted to back up bush or stay in Iraq they simply wouldnt be able to back it up and stay in power.

 

To take this a bit further, its kinda positive to me that when a global fuckup occurs on that scale the people really bunch up and have their way...bye bye Bush, you'll be noted in history as the worse president of the superpower.

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i just think it sets a dangerous standard when a terrorist act

(clearly a very well timed one)

seems to have such tremendous sway over public and political opinion.

 

it's a damn shame that so many people put bush and aznar in power in the first place..

the world just seems to be really divided, bwetween extremes, and getting worse all the time..

 

it just gives a big morale boost to terrorist organizations everywhere.

 

it's confounding.

because i am pleased with the election results...and the likely next outcome, withdrawal of spanish troops from iraq..

 

i dunno what the fuck to think

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Guest imported_Tesseract
Originally posted by hottnickels

i just think it sets a dangerous standard when a terrorist act

(clearly a very well timed one)

seems to have such tremendous sway over public and political opinion.

 

it's a damn shame that so many people put bush and aznar in power in the first place..

the world just seems to be really divided, bwetween extremes, and getting worse all the time..

 

it just gives a big morale boost to terrorist organizations everywhere.

 

 

see, this is the point where i disagree.I believe that all this is a consequence on a govermental scale than the effects of terrorism....of course they take good advantage from it, but if you check who really milked the shit out of the situation you get goverments, not terrorist groups

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i think everyone is guilty:

 

the people, i mean, let's face it, aznar was elected, bush came close..i mean, he came really close!! close enough to win anyway..

 

the governments are guilty..

in the past, for turning the middle east into what it is

in the present, for the perpetuation of the cycle of violence

 

the terrorists are fucking guilty too.

for obvious reasons.

 

i'm not sympathetic to anyone but vicitms anymore i guess.

that freaks me out a little.

 

it's ok to disagree, but be aware, you're disagreeing with someone who isn't even sure what she thinks except we're all going to hell in a handbasket

 

 

...and i still think it sets a scary precedent that this kind of action can get the terror group what it wants.

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Knowing that they could have hit any place or any time it is really a sort of mercy for this to be politically motivated.... since the worst terrorists and the worst types of terrorism is religious extremism.

This was a message that could not be ignored. Do you think there would have been the same kind of response had they attacked a symbolic target?

It is tactically proven that intimidation tactics work with weak government. Because the people are not aligned with the government. I would like to think that a decapitation attack would have been more appropriate. But it would seem that if that were to happen Aznar would be seen as a martyr rather than the lying rat he is. It's really too bad. Spain seems like a nice place to live. I know that just about anywhere in the US if someone left their bag as soon as they left someone would have been rummaging through it or just take the whole thing. At least we know now that spain is not condemned any longer by the muslim world. Maybe I should move there. But canada's closer.

I mean these terrorists they don't give a damn. They are out for blood. If you are in the wrong with them they will do whatever it takes to get at you. Elections or not. It was about vengeance.... tempered by politics. It was a way to end this. At least in spain.

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Guest imported_Tesseract
Originally posted by hottnickels

 

it's ok to disagree, but be aware, you're disagreeing with someone who isn't even sure what she thinks except we're all going to hell in a handbasket

 

 

...and i still think it sets a scary precedent that this kind of action can get the terror group what it wants.

 

haha, no i agree..i mean...i'm just saying that i dont think that a terrorist group has the power to do whatever it wants...if by this situation bush aznar and blair will go down i dont give a fuck and theres a good reason for it.

I dont think that sep11 made americans hate bush when it hapenned, nor did countless other terror acts, the situation in spain had to do with Aznar misleading his own people, whole different story.

If spaniards were in favor of the iraq war they wouldnt impeach him.

Principle number one of a democracy is to respect what the majority wants rather than palying you personal agenta nomatter what.

 

i agree that everyone is guilty and that the terrosism boost is scary as fuck, however it pisses me off in both ends, having organised democratic goverments on top of the blame.

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exactly.

which is why i keep saying that if bush is reeelected, i'm leaving..

the government here has a lot of blame to share in

 

and with its recent track record i can't go along with a majority that is in favor of that kind of 'democracy'

 

good for spain??

 

aarrggh!!

that is why it pisses me off so much!

i was in spian last year..the public was clearly anti war!

those fucking coward terrorists should risk their shit going after military targets!!

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Personally I felt America had the legal obligation to invade Afghanistan to take the Taliban out of power and decapitate the base of al Qaeda and to go after bin Laden. They attacked us, and like any nation that gets attacked, we had the right to self-defense.

 

However I do not support this bogus war in Iraq. They did nothing to us and this war was created over false pretenses. And even with the overwhelming facts of the lies stacked against the Bush Administration, they still act like they did nothing wrong. Instead they backtrack and either say "we went by the intelligence that was given to us", or that "it doesn't matter, we got rid of an evil dictator."

 

It doesn't matter! The intelligence was WRONG. We know that FALSE intelligence was given to you. But the fact still remains that we went to war over false pretenses. And as far as "well we got rid of an evil regime, look at the bright side". Sure, personally I feel a democracy would be better for Iraq. But at the same time, we do not have the moral obligation to change a country's government simply because we don't agree with their form of government! Isn't that along the same lines of empire building?

 

Technically the Bush Administration could be tried for war crimes in front of an international tribunal. But it'll never happen because we're "America", the strongest most intimidating/influential nation on the planet.

 

Saddam illegally disobeyed orders by the United Nations, and made an unwarranted invasion of Kuwait back in 1990. We illegally disobeyed orders by the United Nations, and made an unwarranted invasion of Iraq. There is no difference. And yet we condemned Iraq.

 

Bush is by far the dumbest and most irrational president in the history of the United States. Since WWI America to the world seemed pretty much like a morally respected powerful nation that helped out other countries in need. Bush shattered all of those years it took to build that reputation with this war. But with this unwarranted invasion of a sovereign nation, people now look at the U.S. as being an evil imperialistic empire. And it's sad to see so many ultra-patriotic Americans be so blind to the facts and accuse people like me as being "anti-American". If anything it's pro-American to speak out if you see something that isn't morally right.

 

I hope Kerry wins and he appoints Dean as his VP. It would make me no happier than to see Bush thrown out of office because I know that's the last thing he's expecting/wanting.

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...so i was reading the olympics security article, when i noticed a link to the side on this article..

 

 

Political fallout likely to embolden al-Qaida

 

Armed guards are planned for Olympic athletes, but the US presidential election campaign is seen as prime target for attack

 

.....Al-Qaida and its sympathisers will be emboldened by the impact of what is now assumed to be its first attack in western Europe. The governing party has lost the election and Spain is planning to pull its troops out of Iraq.

 

If the Madrid atrocity was the work of al-Qaida, Spain will have become the first country "to have a prime minister owing his position to Bin Laden", said Jonathan Eyal, the director of studies at the Royal United ....

 

 

 

ouch.

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I would not have guessed

 

the outcome of the election in Spain, nor their obviously sincere reaction to the terrorist bombings. It is very difficult for me to accept that the Spanish people could be so easily whipped down and would cower before a bunch of chickenshit terrorists. I just cannot imagine that the Spanish people are not screaming with rage to attack the terrorists who did this. What kind of unbelieveable pussies can they be?

 

Obviously, I was wrong about Spain. I don't like it.

 

I would hope that if the same thing happened in the U.S. that the American people would come together in solidarity and resolve to erradicate Al Quaeda and all of their fellow-travelers from the face of the earth. But what the fuck, maybe I'm wrong about the American people too. I would REALLY hate that.

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Guest imported_Tesseract

Kabar, it aint like that at all...

 

Calling them pussies is stupid concidering that they have dealt with terrorism in their own soil for decades...that alone should make you more cautious when you try to brake down their motives and choices....As far as the pollitical outcome, note that spaniards held the biggest anti-war protests in the european union...in democratic terms Aznar abused their trust over this and paid the cost...if the people of spain dont want to participate in this war it only takes a dictator to send'em in and finally bring the war back home.

Aznar's presidency was full of thorns those late 2 years...a huge ecological disaster that was dealt carelessly and a big fuckin war the majority didnt approve...what more do you need to get impeached?

 

I dont like the idea of terrorists dictating pollitics at all but in this case its more like the last drop than the actuall reason.

 

And 9/11 was waaay worse than what happened in spain, how did bush deal with it? 2 wars and i see terrorists more powerfull than they where...what was the success over afganistan and whats the success over Iraq?...horseshit.

US's foreign pollitics amped things even more.

I live in a city that might be blown to pieces this summer over Bush's oilhunt...come and tell me who i have to blame if it comes to that?

 

So i hope you're wrong, and i hope british and americans impeach their leaders for misleading them and leveling up the risk for everyone.

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Another thing my boy who lives in spain said about this situation is that Aznar and the PP didn't recognize alot of the different ethnicities and provinces in spain like navarra and the catalans (which is where I think that delightful catalina salad dressing must come from, anyways) etc. He said the arabs don't even have a right to vote there.

The socialists however would unite spain into a single federation, which I'm sure would ease ethnic divides within spain. And of course pull troops out of iraq.

All in all I think spain did a good thing and I hope it inspires other countries to join in and not be strongarmed by Bush.

 

And yes, what on earth does it take to impeach someone!?!? Too bad we can't vote for impeachment. We put him in there, we should be able to take him out.a

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Originally posted by Tesseract

Kabar, it aint like that at all...

...As far as the pollitical outcome, note that spaniards held the biggest anti-war protests in the european union...

Aznar's presidency was full of thorns those late 2 years...a huge ecological disaster that was dealt carelessly and a big fuckin war the majority didnt approve...what more do you need to get impeached?

 

I dont like the idea of terrorists dictating pollitics at all but in this case its more like the last drop than the actuall reason.

.

 

yeah.

i was IN spain last march.

public opinion was OBVIOUSLY, OVERWHELMINGLY AGAINST the government's position..

 

there were big ass ADS in a lot of subway stations with a close up photo of a child.

the child had a GAS NOZZLE held to its head like a GUN BARREL.

the top of the ad stated

"BUSH. AZNAR. BLAIR.

NO A LA GUERRA."

 

i saw MANY anti-war protests, some of them huge, while i was there

 

NO ONE had beef with me because i was american (or for any other reason)

 

i love spain.

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Guest BROWNer

yea, typical kabar.

throwing aznar on his ass was coming. spaniards

exercised a little thing called 'democracy'.

by your logic, a war on terrorism, or an attack means

a population should veto its political involvment. right.

i'm also loving the crude insults in lieu of an extemely devastating

event. fuckin' right on guy.

a day and half before the election, 11MILLION spaniards took to

the streets to make their feelings known about the attacks

and their revulsion to terrorism. when's the last time you did somethin'

like that?

most of spain was against the war in iraq precisely becuz they

felt it would take the heat off the war on terrorism. they know the

difference between the war in iraq, and a war on al qaeda, unlike *some

arrogant, head in the sand americans.

you got cobwebs on your headpiece.

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i just had a great political conversation with a muslim man (a great friend of our family (sisters friend's dad) that we havent seen for awhile) and it was awesome.

 

I never really saw it this way until he talked to us for awhile, but he was telling us about how like other countries are smaller right, so they are more involved in their goverments because they have to be in a way, because it dictates so much of their lives because of what the goverment does.

 

and since the people have a better understanding of whats going on, they can keep closer attention on their goverment, unlike here, where we are so busy and concerned about ourselves (meaning as long as we have a car, and gas for the car, and a job and money and food and shit like that) that we really dont care what the goverment is up to, as long as we can still live our little happy lifestyles...

 

it really got me thinking, that we are pretty blind as to what our goverment is really up to, although i think in some ways thats a good thing, because to live the way we do we probally do have to do some shady things, to get by, but in a lot of ways we should be more concerned with how our goverment handles things, because one day down the road, the script could flip and we could be a third world country. (doubtful but you never know)

 

he was also telling us about how he wished that the iraqi people got the opportunity to pull down the saddam statue instead of US troops, and it brought tears to his eyes.

 

and he was talking about how the people dont really care who runs the oil fields, because they know one way or another its still going to be sold to others reguardless.

 

he also talked about the isreali (sp?) / palestine conflict...

 

it was very interesting hear his points of view, because him and his family are muslim and pretty religious, and he is also a very intelligent man. i thoroughly enjoyed talking to him.

 

anywho...

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Originally posted by BROWNer

yea, typical kabar.

throwing aznar on his ass was coming. spaniards

exercised a little thing called 'democracy'.

by your logic, a war on terrorism, or an attack means

a population should veto its political involvment. right.

i'm also loving the crude insults in lieu of an extemely devastating

event. fuckin' right on guy.

a day and half before the election, 11MILLION spaniards took to

the streets to make their feelings known about the attacks

and their revulsion to terrorism. when's the last time you did somethin'

like that?

most of spain was against the war in iraq precisely becuz they

felt it would take the heat off the war on terrorism. they know the

difference between the war in iraq, and a war on al qaeda, unlike *some

arrogant, head in the sand americans.

you got cobwebs on your headpiece.

 

Bumping this quote in anticipation of a never-to-come response by our resident gun humper, Kabar.

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BROWNer

 

Eleven million Spaniards marched in the streets to demand that Spain pull out their 1,100 soldiers, is that correct?

 

Those eleven million Spanish citizens should have been mobbing the recruiting offices of the Spanish Army, demanding to be sent to Iraq.

 

Like that would ever happen.

 

Terrorists like Al Quaeda want one thing and one thing only: POWER. They want control, over the Muslims in their own countries, and over as much of the western world as they can get. When you see the word Islamist, you should be thinking "Nazi." They will only get worse and worse, with each victory like the Spanish elections. They will never produce a democratic society that recognizes the rights of religious minorities, of women, of any of the things that 99.99% of the people on this board hold dear. Drinking alcohol of any type is enough to get you beaten with fan belts (Afghanistan under the Taliban), possession of a TV or a VCR gets you arrested and held without trial. Adultery results in prison, if you're lucky. Hell, in Saudi Arabia, they EXECUTED A SAUDI PRINCESS (a member of the Royal family, no less!) with a pistol shot, then beheaded her, for trying to run away with her Saudi boyfriend. The boyfriend was beheaded in a public execution, cold turkey. If you steal something, they cut off your hand. What do you suppose you'd get for grafitti? Rack a can of paint--CHOP.

 

What the fuck is wrong with you guys? If these motherfuckers were to somehow take over the U.S., you people would be the very first ones to face their firing squads. All democratic nations should be pouring troops into Iraq and Afghanistan, not cowering because of one lousy train bombing. Hell, the Nazis levelled half of London, killing thousands, and the Brits came swarming out of there like a hornet's nest (armed with a shitload American rifles, mind you.) The radical Islamists hate everything about western culture. They will never be mollified. Given the chance, they would be overjoyed to see Spain enslaved under Sharia, just as it was hundreds of years ago.

 

We either erradicate them now, while they are relatively weak, or we fight a real war with them twenty or thirty years from now. Personally, I think we should pour a serious, no-holds-barred effort into eliminating their movement completely. The argument that by killing a few of them now we create more terrorists is a fallacy. Those people would have eventually become terrorists anyway. If they announce now, that just means we have a chance of getting them now. I do not think we should release captured terrorists anytime soon, but I DO believe we should publicize the shitty conditions in which they will be held for years. Anybody we catch twice gets "life without parole in a Guantanamo dog cage," in the custody of the U.S. Marines. No Paradise for you , baby, just growing old day after day in Camp X-Ray.

 

Terrorists held prisoner should be subjected to intense, unrelenting re-education. Their guards should be 50-50 male and female NCO's, commanded by female Marine officers. They should be forced to obey women in command, since they hate women so much. (Marines obey their officers, regardless of the officer's gender.)

 

The United States should stop fucking around and get serious about rebuilding Iraq. The loss of 500 or 600 soldiers (or for that matter 5,000 or 6,000) is TRIFLING compared to past wars. We lost 3,000 Marines the first day during the invasion of Okinawa. The Civil War cost us millions of soldiers. It was worth it.

 

Wars are waged by soldiers. Waging war is dangerous and everybody knows it. The problem with Iraq is that we need about ten times as many soldiers there as we have, to crush the resistance with overwhelming numbers. The way things are now, they are nickle and diming us because we do not genuinely control the battlefield.

 

They see mercy as weakness. It is better, in the Middle East, to be hated and feared, than hated and held in contempt. You guys are always talking about "gangsta this" and "gangsta that." Well, invading Iraq is REALLY gangsta, and not some two-bit neighborhood thug with a cheap nine millimeter either. All the whining should come to a halt and the U.S. should GO GET THESE TRAIN-BOMBING COWARDS WHERE THEY LIVE. Oh, wait. We're already doing that.

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