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HELLxO

an extensive use of 'quotation marks'

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i may be a nobody...and my 'opinion' may not matter to any of you...and who knows i may even get a few people who will call me a 'snitch' or a 'cop'...but...oh well....i feel like voicing my 'opinion'

 

ill start off with a quote from all of your 12ozers best friend

 

Originally posted by Mr.C-Walk

grafitti has gotten so bad that i think we have all been brainwashed into thinking things that 4-5 years ago would have been terrible are now tolerable....im just as guilty.. but seriously the stuff i see ppl continue to "bump" just has me crying with laughter

 

 

i fully agree with it...and honestly..anyone who doesnt...either got involved in graffiti after 2000 or is a part of the problem....it seems graffiti took the same route as RAP MUSIC..after 1999..everything went downhill..even fat joe is using that bullshit trendy 'lets get on' flow now...anyways..im not sure what started this downfall....but i hear more and more excuses and acceptance for blatent biting/'influence' and unoriginal garbage...and yes..the main source for these excuses being heard is the internet...so is that what started/caused the downfall?...i dont know....but it seems to ME that all the old ethics of graffiti which came out of the hip hop/'urban' 'scene' which also used to be heavily used by RAP MUSIC aswell have been replaced with this for-the-moment 'im just having fun' mentality...noone seems to put any thought into their letters anymore..its almost unheard of to bring a sketch to a wall..nobody puts in the time they used to to make original creative well made letters..nobody cares about the letters...which..is what graffiti is..or at least thats what i thought it was when i got involved in it.....like the lyrics of RAP MUSIC..nobody cares anymore..its all about 'getting on'....same as graffiti..its become tolerable for people to 'get up' with sissy soft ass letters..just as long as theyre 'getting up'...theres just way too much tolerance for complete garbage...people switching up styles to follow trends...people comming out of nowhere and hitting 200000 trains with pansy sloppy letters...blatent biting..or i should say heavy 'influence'...its all garbage.....im not an 'up' writer by any means..and i dont even have the best painting skills...but my letters will stomp the shit out of most of the garbage rolling around right now...and..when im happy with my skill at painting ...i may just do that.........i dont know...i probably didnt get my point across..i could type for days about this..but it hurts my eyes and head...so ill leave you with a quote from a recently caught hope4 train

 

HELLxO

 

http://photos.fotango.com/p/eba00419759f00000001.jpg

 

 

just incase fotango sucks

 

"every piece should be like a well written song"

-hope4(or..whoever he quoted that from)

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...not every writer is hiphop...

 

...and not every writer does biten/'influenced' work...if you look on here that's what you'd think though...mostly becasue the poeple that do that kind of work are the same people that are more than happy to self promote themselves and get their friends to do it too...there are still people that work hard on their letters...people that are dedicated to their craft...these are the people taht are going to stick aroundd longer...kids that jump on moving bandwagons are pretty likely to fall off sooner or later...

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Originally posted by porque

there are still people that work hard on their letters...people that are dedicated to their craft...these are the people taht are going to stick around longer...

 

"so true"

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yes..there are still 'real' writers out there...im well aware of that..and i should have pointed that out...just as there are still alot of 'real' RAP 'artists' out there...i bought the latest gangstarrrrr and blackmoon albums 'recently' and was more than pleased..and i suggest you go get those albums and relate everything said in those albums to 'graffiti'..especially blackmoon(total eclipse)........and..im also well aware that alot of kids dont listen to RAP MUSIC..and thats fine..i guess.....but..RAP MUSIC and graffiti developed together and share alot of the same characteristics and ethics..or..used to.....and maybe since RAP MUSIC went downhill...graffiti started seperating itself from it['s.ethics]..and now..the new wave of kids comming on dont see real RAP MUSIC and dont learn the ethics of hip hop..and they dont see real 'graffiti' and dont understand what it used to be.....and yes..im sure alot of my opinions are based off what ive seen and heard on the internet...especially since i didnt even have the internet up until 2 years ago..and before then still loved 'graffiti'...but...i bench..and seeing alot of the garbage rolling around im sure i would have developed these same opinions sooner or later with or without the internet....kids that self promote are still painting those trains..and people will see those trains whether they self promote or not...i could care less about 'self promoting'...but if its garbage being self promoted..its..garbage..whether they posted it themselves or not..and thats what my problem is......its like..you kids have developed a new set of ethics for graffiti since the ones generated through hip hop left...and now its the internet thats generating these ethics..'you stole my flick and posted it in another thread..you BITER!'..'youre posting your own flicks..TOY!'..'you posted in the wrong section on the forum...TOY!!TOY! TOY!!'...what about 'your letters suck ass..'TOY' 'BITER'!!'?.....and theres the kids who paint who are just 'having fun:) ' and throw up a 100 garbage trains...but these trains are going to last alot longer than your for-the-moment 'im having fun' phase..and alot of the slop just doesnt deserve to be rolling around the contenent for a long period of time..let alone at all.....if you want to 'have fun' go paint your local chill wall...yes..painting should be fun and you should enjoy it..but you should respect it..and treat it properly(especially on trains...its a joke that some of you kids call yourselves 'railfans' and tolerate some of the garbage being thrown on these trains you apparently love...taking pretty pictures of trains doesnt necessarily make you a 'railfan')...'graffiti' just isnt respectable anymore(>with a 'few' exceptions<)....people just dont care anymore...and are willing to almost 'look the other way' to all this garbage as long as theyre 'gettting up/on' and 'having fun'.........but again..my eyes are starting to hurt....so....im going to go cry and punch my pillow until i have to go to class:D

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one more thing....maybe its that people are looking to 'graffiti' for 'influence' for their letters..maybe thats the problem...same as RAP MUSIC..everyone is just looking at what the next guy did and 'got on' with....maybe people need to start looking outside of 'graffiti' for their influence...look at your cereal boxes..billboads...anything..nature..'urban landscapes'..anything YOU come in contact with..anything YOU see in YOUR day to day travels that will help you with letters..colour scemes..etc.....maybe then everyone will have their own unique style....maybeeee:dazed:

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...sorry...but i just don't buy the graffiti is hip-hop arguement...sure when graffiti was being pioneered so was hip-hop...but not everyone from both fields were involved in the other...there were lots of the early guys that were rockin out to some death metal in the layups in the 70's...

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thats not my 'argument' at all....its simpley a comparison...BUT..if you dont think 'graffiti' and RAP MUSIC came up and were based on using the same ethics and 'unwritten rules'...then you dont know either of the two..and are probably part of 'the problem'

 

i could care less what music anyone listens to...i listen to everything from mobb deep to radiohead...my argument is..>>>STOP PAINTING SISSY LETTERS<<<

 

:idea:

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i see your frustration with the status quo. however that is your cross to bear, everyones history with graffiti is diffrent. no two people will see graffiti the exact same way, many may be close but never the same.

 

 

on the hip hop thing.

rap has seperated from hip hop, in the mainstream anyway, unless you are trying to sell something, in which case 'HIP HOP' is thrown around like its a flash word.

to find good rap music that is still hip hop you go away from the mainstream.

same for graffiti.

you will find kids who are just in it cuz it looks cool and they want to feel part of it. most of these graffiti writers are not in it for the long term, despite how they talk while active. those people are here, they make the poor quality work you describe, they wont be here forever. when they are gone a new generation will show up, doing the same thing though.

all the while the core guys who push the limits will be doing the quality work you want to see and are inspired by. it just requires you to either look past the garbage or paint over it with your own work to improve the life of that train you are worried about.

 

its very cyclical right now the trend has a lot of new blood so some areas look weak. the fact the internet shows so many diverse styles causes people to no longer be influenced by a few picks from a mag or stuff just around town. they get to see what everyone around the world is doing. so regional styles are dying and we are getting a world style. people are putting new blood in it but the standard look is becoming more similar around the world.

 

i was one of the kids doing crap work for a long time, my history with graffiti is most likely much diffrent than yours. so my view on the fact that this is the case and we get over it and make our work the best we can is we you can do.

 

just cuz you have a view of how you think it should be doesnt mean anyone else will have to share that with you, though some may.

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i agree with you to a small degree,

 

but this guys i agree with more...

Originally posted by ERIZENO

*no two people will see graffiti the exact same way, many may be close but never the same.

*on the hip hop thing.

to find good rap music that is still hip hop you go away from the mainstream.

same for graffiti.

*all the while the core guys who push the limits will be doing the quality work you want to see and are inspired by. it just requires you to either look past the garbage or paint over it with your own work to improve the life of that train you are worried about.

*the fact the internet shows so many diverse styles causes people to no longer be influenced by a few picks from a mag or stuff just around town. they get to see what everyone around the world is doing. so regional styles are dying and we are getting a world style. people are putting new blood in it but the standard look is becoming more similar around the world.

*just cuz you have a view of how you think it should be doesnt mean anyone else will have to share that with you, though some may.

*= the stuff i wanted to say when i read your post, but didnt have to because ERIZENO said it.

and oh yah

your being who you are and what you have done in the past is irrelivent.

i didnt like that tag you put up on my crappy piece i did... which i just remebered. that was gay, but i got you back :)

 

and oh yeh, letters, style and tightness is not as important as who you are and how you represent. when i see a peice, tag, or throw i tend to relate that work to your personality (this pertains to those i know and have met.. others, well.. i can imagine)

i try not to judge writers by there works so much as there heart. i like to paint with new guys, and obviously there letters suck, but if they try and they love it then there my homies. its great and all to have dope style and bring sketchs to paint because you will probly be pulling off some tight shit, but i never liked painting a sketch, i never learned the method and i havnt done it for at least 2 or 3 years now. i prefer to paint from the heart(or head). I can paint faster, and something will always be different.. plus i dont sketch alot like you.

 

all in all your opinion is yours to hold and cherish.

 

wheres syce in this hizzle???

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my couple of cents

 

january 4th 2004....I hit the yard with 20 cans. I spend 3 hours on a CSX with another homeboy going for the end 2 end collabo. It was 15 degrees. Amtrack workers all over. We must of dipped at least 10 times. We finished our shit and to me it was on fire. Color Matching

pieces with over 10 colors in each piece.

 

Personal opinion, I would rather paint one nice end to end collaboration, then go destroy the line with 10-20 oversized throw-ups that deserve to be in alleys, not fr8s. To me fr8s are for pieceing not tossing your shit over and over down the line. I believe in bringing new letters to the table, trying new shit and doing opposite of what my homies do. Hey man....Next time I see that slop we are talking about in my yard, I will go over it with a 10 color piece.

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first off...its off topic..but none the less...panic..im not sure what 'tag' youre talking about..but if i went over something of yours..it wasnt personal..and if you got me back..then thats that...whats fair is fair

 

anyways...i agree with ERIZENO for the most part of what he said as being 'the way it is'...but does that make it tolerable? does that mean it should be incouraged instead of discouraged?...why should the standards of 'graffiti' be lowered because its in the 'mainstream'?...howd it get accepted as 'mainstream' to begin with?...why arent these people being ridiculed and discouraged for painting weak unoriginal letters?..i dont understand why its being accepted just because 'everybodies doing it'....yes we now have global influence through the internet...but theres a big difference in 'biting/unoriginality' and influence...you can look a 'piece' on a 'euro' 'clean train'..or a 'piece' from LA..or a throw from san fraaaaaansiscooo or new york and be like 'oh..hey...i could probably do that to do this:idea: '..that would be influence...but kids are stopping short and just saying 'i could do that..:) ' and blatently stealing styles..stealing flows...reproducing letters...and putting out garbage...and not even doing it properly...and its being accepted as 'the norm' or 'the way it is'...which is wrong..in MY 'opinion'...thats the way I see it....and im not trying to get praise or gain 12oz/'graffiti' acceptance by starting this thread....im simpley stating MY outlook on 'the situation'.......and panic..>I< dont agree with this: "and oh yeh, letters, style and tightness is not as important as who you are and how you represent" pertaining to 'graffiti'....'graffiti' is an annonomous 'artform'...to ME 'graffiti' is ALL about 'letters, style and tightness(by tightness ill assume you mean originality and all around 'good form' or quality or something along those lines)'...i think in order to have all this you should 'represent' properly..and respect what it is..or what its supposed to be...but 'graffiti' to ME is a craft...just like any other...if you have the ability to do it well..it doesnt matter who the fuck you are...and for the most part..people will never know who you are because of the annonimity of 'graffiti'(other than the people you paint with..and...for people to paint with you..they probably share your view on 'graffiti' and should know and like 'who you are')...if it was really about who you are..youd probably be writing the same signature you use to cash cheques with....buuuut..if you truely do have a completely original flow/style..then yes..it most likely will reflect on who you are..because youd have used the same influences and experiences that make you who you are..but wont necessarily..or it doesnt really haave to..in MY opinion...thats the way >I< see it......and as for new kids...yeah..theyre going to suck...but if you take it upon yourself to paint with them..you should guide and teach them about the ethics of 'graffiti' and whats acceptable and what isnt...and if theyre new..and really do 'love it' and are willing to 'try'..then they should listen to you for being someone of experience......>I< personally wouldnt paint with someone if i thought their letters and ethics were complete garbage..or more so if they were new and werent willing to take my advice into >consideration<.........annnnnnd as for 'sketches'..i like 'sketching'..i was into drawing before i got involved in 'graffiti'...and im not saying you have to use a 'sketch' or even 'sketch' at all if you dont like it...i was just using that as an example of putting in time to develop quality letters before you go out and 'crush freights'...for the most part i dont bring a 'sketch' when i paint...but when i want to try a new idea out or see what i can do differently to my letters...ill usually draw it out and see if it works..instead of putting out garbage that >doesnt look good< on a wall..or freight or whatever...............but thats how I work...if you can produce quality original work without 'sketching'...thats fine........but...i feel like im writting a book here...so...um...until next time:D

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well the influence you want to share with everyone is not an option and it never will be. you will have to grow past your current view, and just look past the fact this occurs. there is no way to reach out to each writer out there and tell them about your views. you have to get this in your mind ... graffiti is diffrent for everyone ... by the way you are talking i can see you still cant grasp that. i never was schooled by people in a way to learn about good letters it took me 7/8 years to learn that on my own. the whole while i was painting bad letters. the buff took care of most of them but i didnt have access to anyone to help me yet i painted ... its a reality in graffiti.

 

you need to get real, dont be so idealistic to think you can change this or even waste your time humoring the thought its an option. what happens out there on the streets and in the yards is reality, live with it and do your part or just walk away man. stop being so worried about it.

 

dont get me wrong we would all love to see most of the work out there being progressive and beautiful, but its not reality. it is disapointing to me too, but i just look the other way.

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'graffiti' may be different for everyone...but garbage letters are garbage to everyone who has eyes in their head....I think 'looking the other way' is the problem..and is what made the bullshit get so out of control that it does seem unfixable..or not a 'reality'...but..if everyone would stop 'looking the other way' and do something about it..im sure it could be a 'reality'.....but..i guess thats whats wrong with the world..nobody cares..nobodies willing to put themselves out there to make things right.....maybe i should go turn up my favorite emo album and bang my head against a wall..maybe itll knock these CRAZY notions out of my head..and ill be able to live blindly like the rest of you:dazed:

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you got it now .... the frustration you have i share with you. You are being very idealistic about it, nothing wrong with that. Your idealism will make you want to beat your head into the wall more than emo music if you continue to want to make this happen. its not something that will ever occur ... hope for it ... do your part but dont waste your time or energy when its not worth it. put that effort into killing walls and share with kids you come into contact with. that is as far as you will ever be able to take it ... deal with it ... it sucks but its life.

 

this is how i view the real world beyond graff so im so on the same point as you.

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im not really trying to argue your point...i see and understand what youre saying quite clearly.....i just wanted to state my point of view on the matter of 'graffiti'..it was once something i respected as a whole..but its quite clear by my endless ranting that its a love/hate relationship...i guess it may be more comforting to just turn my back on 'graffiti' all together..shut out what i hate..and focus on what i love..... just go out and paint..politic free..hassle free..stress free...and most of all SUCKER FREE

 

 

its been fun:)

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just to clarify, the 'tag' was done on a crappy ass peice i did in like 20min while getting stoned with some non-writer freinds in the morning, which you painted the cat character beside. dont worry, the cat was dope and i flicked it before, well, you know..

 

back on topic, i do try to teach the noobies what i feel i need to teach them but graffiti is something one must learn on there own. almost every wrtier i have met (including myself) has held the opinion that learning on your own through trial and error & observation is the best way. i myself was taught alot, but i still learned the majority by myself, including the idea that you should never to hollows around a yard :)

 

to me, 'representing' isnt just your letters/colors/cleanlyness, is how you ACT while painting, and how you react to situations. this relates back to how i said i see the person through the peice ideal.. this stems from the fact that everyone puts up wack shit when they start, its just that they may be the coolest person out there at this stage, and they should be incoraged, not discoraged. for instance, i painted not to long ago at a spot were there was not a decent spot exept for one wall with some toy shit on it. half the toy shit on this wall was.. well... ok, exept for this shitty throw up which did not belong. instead of painting over all the crap, i took out the corner with the throw up, leaving the rest, so that the people who did the other shit could see that i left them alone, and have my respect because they are comming up and are allowed to pull said shit off. plus i didnt have any bucket paint to cover the wall with ;)

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Originally posted by HELLxO

shut out what i hate..and focus on what i love..... just go out and paint..politic free..hassle free..stress free...and most of all SUCKER FREE

its been fun:)

 

thats it man, just do what you love and enjoy it. it was fun.

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i know more than most about learning through mistakes/trial and error.....but..now that ive been through some shit..and grew/learned from it...i feel I should pass on what ive learned..what ive seen..what i know..what i think...and at least offer some slight knowledge to those who come up under me..and offer a bit of guidence and assistance....but some things you have to learn on your own..i know this....but...its people who are aware already and choose to ignore whats been learned from others as to what works and what doesnt..or whats respectable and whats not...thats what i have a problem with...and the fact people are willing to tolerate such disrespectful unexcusable garbage is what i have a problem with....its not necessarily the 'up and commers'..although...'GRAFFITI' IS NOT FOR EVERYONE.....but its not expected to be an expert when youre comming up...as long as you do your OWN thing..and strive to be original and produce quality well made letters..and follow the 'rules' and respect 'graffiti' for what it was..then my argument here has nothing to do with you.....but...most likely..if you think im talking about you...than i probably am:yum:

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Guest sneak

you need to learn about paragraphs. i had trouble following your arguement so i have no idea what your on.

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The media, and gay movies like beat street put graff and hip-hop together. I hate to hear about the ELEMENTS of Hip_Hop. That's Bullshit that a lot of people like to quote on that all the time.

 

To me, graff is more like Punk Rock than hip hop! Most of the graff writers I knew were mostly skaters. There were a few Breakers, but not many. The 2 groups didn't mix that much.

 

As far as crappy letters, there's always been that, and always will be. Maybe 10% of all writers are innovators. the rest either copy (get inspired :lol: ) or just suck.

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