star_becks Posted November 14, 2003 Share Posted November 14, 2003 the elohim are coming you fuckers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mental invalid Posted November 17, 2003 Author Share Posted November 17, 2003 saw this in a record store on monday and it dropped me on my head.... From Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space by Carl Sagan, Random House, 1994) Earth (the dot in the middle) as seen from 3.7 billion miles away by the Voyager 1 spacecraft, on 6/6/1990. ... Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there - on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors, so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner, how frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds. Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the Universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves. The Earth is the only world known so far to harbor life. There is nowhere else, at least in the near future, to which our species could migrate. Visit, yes. Settle, not yet. Like it or not, for the moment the Earth is where we make our stand. It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pilau Hands Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 Originally posted by OPEN_PIEHOLE nizzies? wiggers suck!! it's a joke... put your pants back on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kemekill Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 cooool stuff guys. Just a thought..if space is actually finite, then what would be surrounding this space? If space is a soccer ball, is it just floating in nothing, and if so, then this nothing actually is something. Perplexing.... Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_El Mamerro Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 Sagan fucking crushes... Where's the picture?!? As far as other laymen books, not sure, haven't been able lately to drop back into the full-on physics mode I was into a few years ago... I got distracted by mathematics and AI type-stuff for a while, and am now taking a break from smart reading and eating up $8 action paperback bestsellers. I should hop back into it as soon as I find a good one on M-Theory that picks up where "The Elegant Universe" left off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mental invalid Posted November 17, 2003 Author Share Posted November 17, 2003 http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/pale_blue_dot.html sorry i dont know how to post... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S@T@N Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 This is copyrighted..... I have mailed myself the original. So, not that anyone would care enough, but I've never seen this theory anywhere. Someday I'll scan/post the paper I drew the pictures on.. 1) Big bang theory. All matter was the size of a single point and instantly spanned out millions of lightyears across the galaxy. 2) Stars, planets, dust clouds, etc. are formed. Most of the matter and light are still expanding out into space. 3) As stars die, they collapse on themselves and create black holes. For another myriad of years, they draw in light (which has a mass) and bits of dust/whatever. 4) Our sun will eventually die, as all others do. Hopefully by that time, we've either learned how to work together as a species and respect our surroundings, or we die out. No need to pollute the universe with our self centered bullshit. 5) These black holes have enormous amounts of energy and mass inside them. Eventually, they will begin to draw on each other, as well. 6) The gravity escalates to the point where the black holes begin to accelerate toward each other. As they collide, they gain more and more mass, and therefore, more gravity. 7) If there was any mass in the universe not already swallowed by a black hole, it is now. The gravity of the black holes has stopped the expanding of the universe... even that being done by light itself. 8) The black holes accellerate toward each other at the speed of light. As they collide, the mass they hold once again collapses in on itself. 9) The super dense matter continues to eat itself, as all of the energy and mass of the universe condenses into the normally empty space in atoms. Through this effect, the matter is once again brought down to the size of a single point. 10) The big bang happens once again. The funny part: because all of the mass is at that single point, it must be uniform in nature. The Big Bang is identical every time it occurs... what this means: The universe, as an event, occurs over and over and over again as we move through time. I will type this on 12oz an infinite amount of times, you will read it again and again, and on and on we march. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr.yuck Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 Yeah i have heard about that theory that the universe will collapse on itself instead of spreading out for ever. The shit that worries me is that i am going to read this again and have read it before and it will continue on forever. Thank you for granting me this moment of clarity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!@#$% Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 boggling me: if the universe is finite, even in the form of expanding/contracting energy or matter, what lies beyond the limits of the universe. my little brain has always had a difficult time truly comprehending infinity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S@T@N Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 Nothing. It's like space, but nothing is there. Would would happen if you made a reflective lead box in the middle of space, and somehow filtered out all of the matter inside that box? There would be areas inside that box that are truly empty. What's the difference between that and the outside of the universe? i submit to you there isn't diddly squat different. Here's something for you to ponder: If we somehow find a way to travel at the speed of light, we would live in a world without time for as long (strange, right? no time, but our speed is defined with time?) as we were at that speed. However, if we could travel faster than light, we could eventually catch up to the light originally shed off by the big bang. Using this logic, with a big enough telescope, we could watch the big bang happen from the farthest reaches of space. Hahaha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daze One Million Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 some people believe that there are muliple universes in side a mega universe i guess you can say, just as we are in a globe, earth, and earth is in a galaxy, milky way, and the milky was is in the universe, the universe its self is inside sometihng much larger, but i too wonder what could be on the out most regions of the universe, i always thought that if you traveled in a straing line away from earth that eventually you will come back to it, but i dont beleive the fact that everything will happen as it did again, upon the next big bang, earch may not even be formed, but something more to be worried about in the future rather than the sun inevetibaly going super nova on us is that our galaxy is on a crash course with our sister galaxy, which i dont know the name of, upon collision it will form one new galaxy, most likely destroying everything in both galaxies and starting over from scratch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_El Mamerro Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 S@T@N, you can stop worrying about copyright issues cause that theory's been around for quite some time now. I can't believe you've never seen it before. As for the lead box thing, even if you filtered out all of the matter in it, it would still be different from what's outside the universe. That space may not have matter, but it does have spatial geometry and dimensions, which amounts for "something". "Space" is something. I don't understand why people get so upset about the finite universe thing, and ask "what is there beyond it?". There simply isn't anything in the world you can use as a reference to visualize this, so why bother? We are used to seeing things fit inside other things, it is impossible to accept that the universe doesn't fit in anything larger than itself. "Nothing" isn't just a vacuum of space, "nothing" is nothing. It is so "nothing", you might as well say "it doesn't exist". Don't sweat it, we will never ever have a concept of what this is like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mental invalid Posted November 17, 2003 Author Share Posted November 17, 2003 well put mams.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!@#$% Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 due to the nature of [my own] thought processes, i cannot simply "not bother; or not sweat it" i guess the accompaniament to that would be that there are no concepts i have not been able to fully wrap my mind around (besides those discussing the finite limitations of the universe) "nothing" is also not good enough an answer for me. i have lots of faith in physics, but as a scientist, i am aware that we are limited by the information and data we have available to us.. all these theories could get blown wide open.. i am also intrigues by the possible correlation, at that point of the boundaries of our universe, whether what lies beyond doesn't have some sort of meaning or purpose or substance [beyond the states of matter and the energies and philosophies that we are aware of] i mean, there's lots of tandem repeats in the genetic code..we have no idea why they are there, and lots of genetecists have implied that it is "junk" ..but i have a curiosity about it, i believe our understanidng of it is limited by what we already know about the genetic code, and that those 'non-coding' regions may in fact have a very specific purpose, for example the genetic code of our aura, or maybe our soul..these are farfetched, and unlikely, but intriguing nonetheless.. i am goign to get back into physics classes. i am fascinated by the concept of a unifying theory..and the possibility that by the time a satisfactory one is created, it will encompass not only science, but also philosophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mental invalid Posted November 17, 2003 Author Share Posted November 17, 2003 im printing this thread out..... any books people??! help a laymen out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!@#$% Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 this might not be what you want... but it would still be a good read.. especially since this is 'en vogue' in physics to link it up with eastern philosophy (the dalai lama recently spoke at harvard and mit) http://www.shambhala.com/images/covers/057062519_L.gif'> http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0375708111.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg'> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S@T@N Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 oh well mams, it was just something I was kinda proud of because its something I figured out that wasn't fed to me. And when I say "figured out" I'm not asserting it's the absolute truth, just that I was able to give form to it. Anyway.... as to the argument on the concept of nothingness that !@#$% can't grasp: It's like being blind. And I dont' mean philosophically, metaphorically blind, I mean physically, literally blind. You can't explain to a someone born blind what colors are, or what something looks like, because they simply have nothing to refer to.. their brain structure just doesn't include what sight is. Same with being deaf... It's like Gene Wilder in "See No Evil, Hear No Evil", when Richard Pryor screams in his ear, "HEY, CAN YOU HEAR THIS? AT ALL?" And Gene is like "Come here... a little closer... I'M DEAF, I CAN'T HEAR ANYTHING" or something like that. So funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!@#$% Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 your argument holds nothing. uhhhhh... deaf people can appreciate music. vibrations and such are felt, and can be interpreted.. blind people can have a notion of color based on other senses, such as touch [of temperature, of surface] and sound.. i do not believe that my mind is physically incapable of comprehending a space beyond 'nothing' it is more that i do not fully buy that argument, that the universe is indeed finite, with undefined characterisitcs of what lies beyond those borders.. i think there is something there. i also believe that with all the new information accesible, the universe is now a misnomer.. because it is not INfinite (by definition) in fact, it is bound...so its original definition does not apply Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daze One Million Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 what gets me is that if the universe is ever expanding what is it expanding into if there is nothing out there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S@T@N Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 Re: your argument holds nothing. Originally posted by !@#$% uhhhhh... deaf people can appreciate music. vibrations and such are felt, and can be interpreted.. blind people can have a notion of color based on other senses, such as touch [of temperature, of surface] and sound.. i do not believe that my mind is physically incapable of comprehending a space beyond 'nothing' it is more that i do not fully buy that argument, that the universe is indeed finite, with undefined characterisitcs of what lies beyond those borders.. i think there is something there. i also believe that with all the new information accesible, the universe is now a misnomer.. because it is not INfinite (by definition) in fact, it is bound...so its original definition does not apply Are you fucking smoking crack? I was giving an example to try to help you out, not arguing (and I know that's the definition of argument you were going for.) So lets disregard the fact that you totally misinterpretted the mood of what I was saying. You're saying that the can appreciate the vibrations? Well shit, if I was talking about the sense of touch, that's wonderful. Fuck, I can feel a train coming, but that doesn't mean I understand what it sounds like. Second: Sorry to shut you down twice, but there while there may be some feeling linked to colors, blind people don't truly have a sense of any fucking colors if they're born blind. Unless, of course, you'd like to show me evidence otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOOGLE? Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 .......i've been reading waaaaaaaay to much h.p lovecraft, robert e. howard, and robert bloch as of late so i'll just shut up before i start jibbering about cthulhu and nameless gods with idols whose stone edafaces bend the laws of physics...... uh i gotta go theres this group of fine ass hmong girls in the library..gonna take my musty ass over and spit some game.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daze One Million Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 anyone care to explain to me the string theory? i have yet to understand what that was all about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S@T@N Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 ugghhhhhhhh..... if you wanna learn about string theory, my advice is have a physics teacher talk to you about it some time. you can try to yahoo it, but chances are it'll give you as much of a headache reading it as it does me thinking it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hottnickels Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 <-- !@#$% Originally posted by S@T@N Are you fucking smoking crack? I was giving an example to try to help you out, not arguing (and I know that's the definition of argument you were going for.) So lets disregard the fact that you totally misinterpretted the mood of what I was saying. You're saying that the can appreciate the vibrations? Well shit, if I was talking about the sense of touch, that's wonderful. Fuck, I can feel a train coming, but that doesn't mean I understand what it sounds like. Second: Sorry to shut you down twice, but there while there may be some feeling linked to colors, blind people don't truly have a sense of any fucking colors if they're born blind. Unless, of course, you'd like to show me evidence otherwise. actually, you are misinterpreting me. this is the definition of argument i was going for: ar·gu·ment (ärgy-mnt) n. 2. A course of reasoning aimed at demonstrating truth or falsehood: presented a careful argument for extraterrestrial life. A fact or statement put forth as proof or evidence; a reason: The current low mortgage rates are an argument for buying a house now. A set of statements in which one follows logically as a conclusion from the others. and from nature.com on the deaf sensing sound: http://www.nature.com/nsu/011129/011129-10.html Feel the music Deaf people use 'mind's ear' to process vibrations. 27 November 2001 ERICA KLARREICH After going deaf, Beethoven sawed the legs off his piano and played it on the floor so he could feel its vibrations. Nearly two centuries later, brain imaging is revealing that deaf people may 'hear' vibrations just like others hear sounds - using the auditory centres of the brain. When holding a vibrating plastic pipe, people born deaf have brain activity in the auditory cortex, but those with normal hearing don't, says Dean Shibata of the University of Washington. Shibata presented his findings on 27 November at the Scientific Assembly and Annual Meeting of the Radiological Society of North America in Chicago. The study suggests that the brain of a deaf person rewires itself to process vibrations in the absence of sound. It may be that deaf people experience vibrations in the same way that hearing people experience sound, says Ruth Campbell of University College London, UK, who studies how deaf people communicate. "Is it like hearing? This opens the question up," she says. The findings may explain why many people who have never heard a sound appreciate music, Shibata says. "Deaf people like to dance and can sense melodies and rhythms," he says. "It's not clear what they perceive, but it's clear that they enjoy it." Concerts at which deaf people hold balloons to amplify vibrations have been great successes, he adds. Research earlier this year found that that deaf people are more sensitive than hearing people to minute changes in vibration frequencies. "This sensitivity might have developed to warn deaf people about dangers in the environment that they can't hear," says Sari Levanen of Massachusetts General Hospital, a member of the team who performed the study. A deaf person's brain may convert the auditory cortex into a vibration-processing centre because the region is already well adapted to the task, thinks Levanen. "Physical vibrations and sound require similar information processing." But it is also possible that the brain routes vibrations to the auditory cortex simply to make use of valuable brain real estate, says Ian Summers, a biomedical physicist at Exeter University, UK, who studies sensory perception. After a limb is amputated, Summers says, the part of the brain that controls the limb's sensation is encroached upon by other brain regions. A patient touched on the nose may have the illusion of being touched on the missing limb, for example. Regardless of what causes rewiring, says Shibata, his work suggests that deaf children may benefit from an early introduction to music while the rewiring is taking place. Such early exposure could also help deaf people use 'vibro-tactile' devices that convert sound into vibrations to supplement lip-reading, Shibata suggests. Although the devices have been shown to be effective, many people find them hard to adapt to. "If people want to learn to use the devices, it's good to start early," Shibata says. References Levanen, S. et al. Feeling vibrations: enhanced tactile sensitivity in congenitally deaf adults. Neuroscience Letters, 301, 75 - 77, (2001). ...so anyway, i don't think you shut down shit. my point was, i have the capacity to understand my universe. i simply do not yet have the [education and] information available yet thanks. take your bad attitude..i dunno, to space or some sheeyat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hottnickels Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 and some articles about this crazy invention that allows the blind to 'see' images in their minds eye.. http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/10.09/vision.html http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/06/13/...ain512160.shtml gyeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Tesseract Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 I hate to go off subject here but i'm digging the cinderella style !@#$% is pulling lately...clock sais 12' limo turns to pumpkin, !@#$% swaps to hottnickels... hollertronix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hottnickels Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 lol it is all 12oz's fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_El Mamerro Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Word !@#$%, I know what you mean. I am almost 100% sure that when and if a unifying theory is ever discovered, it will encompass philosophy, poetry, and other "spiritual" matters. This will either be incredibly beautiful or incredibly disappointing for some, mainly because there is a possibility that these spiritual matters become quantified. I am of the sense that just because you can quantify something doesn't make it any less magical, so even if this does happen I won't be any less thrilled. As a matter of fact, I have been believing for some time now that this universe is fully quantifiable in one way or another, but that remains to be seen. As a matter of fact, Brian Greene mentions several times in "The Elegant Universe" that aesthetics play an integral part in superstring theory. It weaves concepts and forces together with such harmony and elegance that it's almost imposible not to see the beauty in it... it presents reality as being an artistic masterpiece. As for the whole "nothing" thing, I was saying that more for people who bring up the question like some sort of argument against there existing nothing outside the universe. Just because we can't perceive and understand a concept doesn't make it any less possible. And also for people who bring up a question like Daze: "If the universe is expanding, what is it expanding into?". The reason I say don't sweat it is because, although it appears to be otherwise, the answer to this question is currently of little importance to the subject, and only serves to wreck your brain while other more important issues don't get enough air time. I wrestled with the question for quite some time until I became completely comfortable with the concept of "nothingness". Brian Greene's book helped too. As for the blind thing, haha, cmon, don't give S@T@N a hard time, we know what he meant regardless of intricacies. And even if we did mind the intricacies, a person that is blind from birth is simply unable by any means or form to see things the way a normal human can. Neural connections will find their way around, but the process won't be 100% accurate. The only way for this to happen is a complete rewiring of the entire brain... if a human being misses the critical period during their first year, the visual cortex fails to develop right, and even if sight is restored later in the adult life, it will be impossible for the person to understand what comes in through their eyes. As a matter of fact, back when laser surgery first started giving people their sight back, every single patient who came in blind from birth from repairable defects had disastrous results. Light finally came into the eye and stimulated the brain, and it was absolutely terrifying... they couldn't make sense of anything that was going on, it was way too much to handle, and they couldn't bring themselves to accept that this was the way things really "looked" like. Imagine having built all your life a certain perception of the world around you, and all of a sudden, this incredible onslaught of electric signals courses through your visual cortex, sending charges out wrongly connected synapses, creating an awful, agonizing mess in your perception. The same light rays that converge in our retinas and create these perfectly sensible environments in our heads instead paint a picture of utter chaos in an underdeveloped visual cortex. I got that issue of Wired and its an awesome article, but the guy in it first lost his sight at 17... more than enough time to develop his sense of sight and therefore be able to later use his other senses to "paint" pictures in his brain similar to what he once saw. Once the computer was installed, there was no problem stimulating his already well-developed visual cortex to restore some sense of actual sight. Likewise, it is impossible for us to imagine what a person blind from birth "sees". They do not "see" blackness. "Seeing" simply does not exist for them, they only know they're missing something because others tell them so. And we cannot comprehend this in the very same way we can't comprehend "nothing" outside the universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hottnickels Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 ^excellent post. yes, i was giving satan a hard time. it's sometimes hard to convey the subtleties of my points on the net so i guess i just was trying to elucidate a little bit the possibilities of the human mind to expand in ways one never even considered possible. while i was looking into articles about the whole blindness/perception thing, i came across a few that showed that [of the test subjects] there was some awareness of things entering what would be their visual vield, obviously through menas other than 'sight' whatever, carried off on a tangent.. i liked the original theme of the thread, i'll kindly shut up and we can get back to that. there is an interesting book "the discoverers" that kind of puts in perspective man's journey on the path of knowledge.. i think we are still at the beginning.. it seems instinctual that all things would be interrelated somehow, even if only on a microscopic level ...(especially when one considers the nature of elements; matter; and the properties shared by those few minute bits..which could them give rise to all things; and the nature of organic chemistry; how few elements all living things can be broken down into; the fact that all life arises from only 4 base pairs in tricodes....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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