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Guest Ginger Bread Man

Starbucks

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Originally posted by seeking

holler for rational thinking.

 

people that blindly wage a blanket war against 'big corporations' pretty much annoy me.

 

oh man, totally, like i was flipping through an adbusters, and they had an american flag and the stars were replaced wtih logos of corporations that were supposedly doing the world bad, what was strange to me is that both the Adobe and Apple logos were on this flag.

 

now call me crazy but i'm pretty sure the guys at Adbusters use one or more adobe programs on a regular basis, and i'm pretty sure they or their print shop uses Apple computers. hypocrisy is a bitch isn't it.

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Guest imported_Tesseract

I cant disagree to 90% of that seeking, still the whole point of this thread started as to whats wrong with starbucks...and the most obvious was stated...their coffee sucks and they lean on their, almost, monopolistic way of choosing them. On the flipside of your description, only people that are willing to search the city, find a good spot to discuss books or whatever deserve good coffee?...people that drink it on the fly dont have a taste for that shit?

 

I aint hating on them in the way you mean it, angry teenager style, i just belong in the category of people that would prefer to be known for making great coffee, if a coffeemaker, rather than just being everywhere and eliminating competition that way. I dont believe there werent places to get some coffee fast before starbucks nor that they created that kind of market. What they succeeded is to create that sense of familiarity all big 'chains' rely on. People dont like change, thats the reason they exist...see $360's post for example.

 

As far as alternatives go, you dont even have to 'keep it real', i've never encountered a crappy sony device or seen mac's software crash every ten seconds and i definatelly have no problem with Wendy's burgers.

 

You're right about walmarts policies being the closest thing to socialism you'll ever see...you have kids socialising in shopping malls...

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don't get me wrong, im all for being critical of companies and organizations, but 99.9% of the people that run around bitching about starbucks only do so because they 'know' they're 'supposed' to. that as consumers, we're supposed to hate ourselves for 'consuming'. they know that having a starbucks on every corner says something about our society, they just dont know what. if they want to complain about how we as a whole are fucked and on a collision course with disaster, i'll agree all day long. but to just blindly 'rage against the machine' is throwing stones at false idols. starbucks is not the cause of our problems, its a symptom. if we as a society did not want it, it would not exist. if we wernet so susceptible to mass marketing and cheap gimmicks, it wouldnt be an issue.

but we are, and thats reality.

 

when i was 16 i worked at pizza hut. they offered me (relatively) affordable medical and dental insurance.

i quit and got a job at 'pizza depot' owned by an italian guy from down the block. i made less money and my only 'benefit' was i could sell weed on my deliveries.

 

i know im playing heavily into the 'benefit' angle, but its indicitive of more than just itself, it stands as representation of how they are treated as employees. sure, they'll never meet the 'ceo', sure that guy will make 15 million dollars a year, but who gives a shit? if you work at a coffee shop because it's your lifes dream, then you should have really set your sights higher.

90% of the jobs most people work are because they need a job, not because they want the one they have.

if ive got to do something i dont want to, i want to be compensated as well as i can be.

 

it all comes down to money, theirs and mine.

'superior beans' dont keep my electricity on.

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Guest imported_Tesseract
Originally posted by Comp

 

now call me crazy but i'm pretty sure the guys at Adbusters use one or more adobe programs on a regular basis, and i'm pretty sure they or their print shop uses Apple computers. hypocrisy is a bitch isn't it.

 

 

Now call me crazy but i'm pretty sure the graffiti guys rack or even buy their paint from walmart just to vandalise their very walls...hypocrisy has a meaning, doesnt it?

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Guest imported_Tesseract

seeking, understood...what frightens me more than consumer american ideology is anti-consumer american ideology...it always leads to a 'new' kind of consumerism....recycling

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To focus on another issue, apparently anti-corporate people have no understanding of economics..

 

IN a competitative market economy that is linked through an infastructure, there cannot exist multiple independent producers of public goods.

 

This is because let's assume there are 5 indy shoe producers in Anytown, America. Five indy shoe producers each make their own product. Each is competing for their respective market share (since all manufacture the same product, it is about 20% each.)

 

Now all of a sudden Indy shoe producer #1 in Anytown, Amerika gets access to cheap leather. Now mister shoe producer is able to lower his production costs which increases his profit. Now that #1 has more profit he is able to do something called capital accumulation.

 

#1 has no accumulated significantly more capital then shoe producers 2,3,4, and 5. However his market share (20%) in Anytown, America effectively bars and more profits. So utilizing his accumulated capital, #1 merges (hostile buyout) with 2,3,4, and 5. Therefore what #1 has created is a monopoly on shoe production in the area.

 

Now #1 owns 100% of the market, and owns all the profits. There is no competitors. What do all the other shoe producers do? They go to shoe producer #1 mega corporate conglomerate and get jobs making shoes at #1's factory. They get paid more then they would in their own shops, and plus they earn wage labor now. THey no longer have to exchange product for money, instead time for money.

 

This is how you have CORPORATIONS evolve in America. In Capitalism the private entity is responsible for production of public goods, where as government is entitled to produce non profitable public goods such as roads, schools, etc.

 

In communism the government would be making your coffee, and it would taste like shit because there is no profit motivation to ensure competitive product (Which tastes better, so you buy it and make profit for the producer.)

 

So all you corporate slamming people now have an understanding of economics and your argument is null and void. Enjoy the free lesson, in real life this would cost you atleast $200/hr.

 

Bye Bye. This article is © Copyright Metallix. All rights Reserved. Unauthorized reproduction without the authors permission is prohibited. May not be redistributed in any form for any reason.

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was that 'recycling' comment supposed to be a witty little joke like the 'socializing at the mall' line?

if so, neither were funny, and were just further examples of my biggest gripe with those that want to complain; they offer no realistic alternative.

 

if peoplewant to make realistic big business coments, lets talk about the companies that farm their larbour out to the lowest bidder, taking jobs from americans, then they wonder why the economy is for shit.

 

if you brought all those jobs back from mexico and taiwan and gave the to the millions of americans who've been laid off in the last 30 years, there would be no recession.

if people really wanna get deep, lets talk about the insurance industry itself. there is no larger, or more sinister 'big business' than this industry, save perhaps the prison industry. the shit is disgusting. 1/4th of americans do not have any medical insurance. in the most industrialized country in the world, one out of 4 people can not go to the dr. if they get sick.

thats fucking disgusting beyond words. its really hard for me to care about some whiny motherfucker, complaining cause his coffee has lost its flavor, when im sitting here with menigitis because i couldnt go to the dr when i had a headache for two weeks.

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metallix,

while i agree with this scenario, you cant overlook the potential for abuse.

 

once shoe guy #1 has a monopoly, he can set the 'market price' for his goods at whatever he choses, because people have no option. he can also pay his employees whatever he wants to, because they have no other option for employment. it's like the labor industry in the west during the depression. guys would work for 1/5th of what they used to make, simply cause they needed that nickle to survive and had no choice. what unions did, was ensure that the people had a say in how they were treated, both as consumers and producers. but now you get companies complaining about how they 'cant make any money' because the unions are bleeding them dry. meanwhile, 'make any money' is a completely bullshit and misleading statement. when ford says their sales are down '4%' from last year, and they have to lay people off, what they arent telling you is that 'last quarter' was a record setting year, so this year, even with the 'loss' they're still up 5% from the year before last. so then they lay people off, lowering the amount of money in circulation, and lowering peoples abilities to consume. even worse though, is we still consume, we just destroy our whole lives in order to do so.

 

 

blah, i could go on all night.

truth is found in the balances.

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Re: coffee sucks

 

Originally posted by !@#$%

fucks up your liver

 

It fucked up my Dad's liver. that fucking sucks to get liver problems through drinking coffee.

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Re: Re: my problem with starbucks.

 

Originally posted by Tesseract

You're only right on the title...MY problem with starbucks..cause it trully is your problem...you're in another fuckin country, with a shitload of new options and you choose starbucks over them...you, my friend is the reason why starbucks will never go out of business.

 

im sorry i suck at explaining things. starbucks was the only thing taht was open. i attempted to find the other things abouve, but nithing was open. nothing but the big shiny starbucks.

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Re: Re: Re: my problem with starbucks.

 

Originally posted by $360

im sorry i suck at explaining things. starbucks was the only thing taht was open. i attempted to find the other things abouve, but nithing was open. nothing but the big shiny starbucks.

 

 

Serious, I really don`t know Canterbury well at all, but there was no Cafe open, i.e eggs bacon beans sausages tomato`s etc ?

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Guest imported_Tesseract
Originally posted by seeking

was that 'recycling' comment supposed to be a witty little joke like the 'socializing at the mall' line?

if so, neither were funny, and were just further examples of my biggest gripe with those that want to complain; they offer no realistic alternative.

 

What?...they were suposed to be somewhat funny but it doesnt matter if you dont see that. You can easily stick to the serious and realistic part of them. Having kids socialising in the malls is a characteristic of america(at least suburban which is 75%) aswell as having the same kids become sick of consumerism just cause their lives are so full of it to the point were they eventually just create a new kind of market once the teenage anger is long gone, just like the hippie generation created a whole new breed of yuppies. If all i say strike you as whiners talk, so be it. I dont really have any alternatives for you...simply cause i dont live there, i told you about starbucks and i told you why i think they're successfull, thats about as far as i can go. However, in terms of continuing the witty little jokes, using one of yours this time, and offering you an alternative at the same time, you should move here man, we have the same shit you do and you can trade a levis jean for a cottage house...not a bad deal.

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Guest imported_Tesseract

Re: Re: Re: my problem with starbucks.

 

Originally posted by $360

im sorry i suck at explaining things. starbucks was the only thing taht was open. i attempted to find the other things abouve, but nithing was open. nothing but the big shiny starbucks.

 

in that case, sorry mate.

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i heard they opened a starbucks in brazil and that really pissed me off. not that it doesn't piss me off that they have stores in a lot of other countries as well.

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I think the main problem with Starbucks is that its overpriced, especially since the beans are burnt and all. You can walk around the corner, go to the friendly neighborhood coffee joint and get a tastier brew for half the price.

 

As a huge franchise though, I guess the job opportunity is better. Big up to kilo and seeking on their well stated viewpoints...

 

work at starbucks, make more cash, get benefits and all, good deal, but you also have to dish out overpriced burnt coffee and work for this big corporation and all that... I say fuck it though, people will continue to buy the expensive burnt coffee for the starbucks name, and people will continue working there for the benefits and higher pay, so why not you? your working at starbucks does not necessarily make this money driven world any worse than it already is, and you wont make it better by turning down the job.

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to be honest, i dont frequent a whole lot of small coffee shops, but those that i have, have been pretty comperably priced to starbucks.

all i ever get is a 'large iced caffe mocha' which is roughly 3.85 no matter where i get it from... indy or chain.

 

someone please explain this 'burnt bean' thing. is this something they actually do on purpose for some reason, or is it just a generalization, claiming they dont give a shit about their product?

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Guest
Originally posted by seeking

someone please explain this 'burnt bean' thing. is this something they actually do on purpose for some reason, or is it just a generalization, claiming they dont give a shit about their product?

 

The roasting process is a very delicate balance of heat and timing.

You can work out the variables and have coffees with very different

characters from the same source bean. Terms like 'light roast' and

'french roast' are just refering to how dark the bean will get. After

you've sampled a few good quality roasts it's really easy to tell the difference.

 

Starbucks overroasts their beans.

They claim that it creates a 'mature flavor enjoyed by their customers'.

(I dont remember where I saw that so it's a loose quote). It's really easy

for anyone who's had a few different roasts (served black) to tell that the

coffee from starbucks isn't near as good as you'll get from 'Al's Java hut'.

I'm not sure exactly why they burn the beans but I think it has something

to do with shelf life. The coffee snobs say that a fresh bag of grinds will

only stay fresh for a few days. I think that burning the roast will cover

the taste so the freshness (or lack of) will be less apparent. I'm not sure

if the roasts are burnt because the people doing it dont understand the

process or if it's got more to do with the 'factory' style of the business.

Maybe GBM can help seing as he manages one.

 

So that's the reason why I personally done like starbucks coffee.

I've got nothing against the company or their market. I think that

it has only helped the indy coffee market by creating awareness.

10 years ago how many people our age had tasted an espresso?

After having tasted a real hamburger, McDonalds doesn't seem the same.

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Guest Ginger Bread Man

i dont have a pc right now so i have to rely on my local Apple store for one. seeing as this is my thread i will try to keep up with it.

 

Kilo. to my understanding we do not BURN our coffes. coffes for the most part come into our store as whole beans and we grind them. the decaf is a perfect example because we actually get it in big 5 lbs bags, grind, then bag it up at an individual weight. the coffee we actually serve is never older than one hour old. meaning that after an hour a timer goes off and tells us to rebrew a nice fresh pot.

 

as to a bar drinks<espresso made> such as a mocha, latte, capuccino or what not, are made top quality. there are two types of machines utilized at most coffee shops. the first is a manual bar which you actually grind the espresso beans, load a pod, tamp the pod and then let the machine pour the hot water. in this machine the shot time is between 14-23 seconds<don't quote me cos i dont use this> this machine can pull shots at different time frames because of the pressure at which the grounds were stamped or because of the grind, be it courser or finer.

 

the second is a verismo which is an automatic machine than grinds and pours the shots automatically. in this machine the shots should pour between 12-18 seconds. if the timing is off you adjust the grind setting within the machine. this machine is calibrated daily to represent that time frame.

 

if the shots pour to quick the coffee will taste stale and if too slow will taste bitter.

 

the coffee we sell to the public by lbs are whole beans that will remain good for approximately 1 week once the airtight seal is broken. you can tell they are fresh by the smell and the color which is rich and varies in color depending on the type of coffee. most times there is even moisture or natural oils if you would that come with cofee.

 

that said. we take plenty o time into the coffee business. it wouldnt be an empire if people didnt like it would it now? trust me when i tell you we dont accept mediocre coffee making. maybe you have had bad experiences and lazy workers who don't rebrew when they should or<burn> your shots of espresso which makes your drink taste bitter.

 

dont get me strated on the coffee selection.

 

has anyone learned anything?

 

as far as price . like seeking said it is reasonably priced compared to todays coffee market. there is not much of a difference between starbucks and say what seattles best was. between seattles best and an indy coffee shop.

 

seeking has a point. starbucks is one of the best companies to work for anywhere. i have plenty of stocks, mass amount of 401k, full dental and health benefits and free coffee. in fact i have like 20 lbs sitting at home now. so while you guys are complaining, my portfolio is vesting and making me some money...

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Guest

^ thanks for the insight into the process.

I'm sure that you are right about the quality and precision that

goes into the product that leaves your store however...

 

 

Originally posted by Ginger Bread Man

to my understanding we do not BURN our coffes. coffes for the most part come into our store as whole beans and we grind them.[/b]

 

Unless the roasting is done in store then there's no way to be sure.

If the beans are roasted elsewhere and then shipped to individual

outlets then it would make for a standard roast across the board.

Roasting is a tricky art but it's not rocket science either (more on that later)

The coffee I've had from a few starbucks in the past tastes burnt to me.

If it's all done in a factory somewhere then individual stores cant change

the roast even if they wanted to.

 

now am I just talking out of my ass? yes and no.

 

Just for the record my father owns and runs a coffee roastery

and import/export business along with some cafes on an island

off the coast of Venezuela. He's been going to all the trade shows

and coffee expos for some time and I picked up a little knoledge on the way.

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