Dr. Dazzle Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 14 Characteristics of Fascism 1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays. TOP 2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc. TOP 3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc. TOP 4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized. TOP 5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male- dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homo-sexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution. TOP 6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common. TOP 7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses. TOP 8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions. TOP 9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite. TOP 10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed. TOP 11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked. TOP 12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations. 13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders. TOP 14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections. Source:http://csf.colorado.edu/envtecsoc/2003/msg00700.html So by my count I get 13. Very interesting. Discuss....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GucciCondom Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 coolio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRAMPS Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 i have my rights to call you a raspscalion! yes....i went there:lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Dazzle Posted September 7, 2003 Author Share Posted September 7, 2003 Originally posted by E MARTYR do you work for scooby snacks? :confused: As a matter of fact I do. At least I'd like to :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_gooch Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 those descriptions are pretty on point for the U.S.A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rip Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 ok so pretty much what your trying to say is get rid of the military, not be patraotic(sp*), and let terrorist acts go un-punished? i didnt even bother to read the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chicken bone Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 I counted 13 as well.. Pretty on fucking point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sickboy Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 Originally posted by rip ok so pretty much what your trying to say is get rid of the military, not be patraotic(sp*), and let terrorist acts go un-punished? i didnt even bother to read the rest. The U.S. Military has commited terrorist like acts to lots of countries within the past 50 years. Maybe we should punish our military. I'd be ok with that. If you want facts I'd be glad to send you my social/political painting on this subject. You would have to pay me though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaBar2 Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 These exact same 14 characteristics ...with slight alterations are true of Communist and Socialist nations as well. In fact, any totalitarian government will attempt to create an environment where this is true, but you and the good professor left out my favorite and most important characteristic---fascistic nations ALWAYS DISARM THE POPULATION, and they start by disarming the sector that has been designated as the "duty scapegoat." Of course, who could disagree with disarming dangerous Fifth Columnists here in the U.S. who might use their easy access to "assault rifles," "military/police shotguns," "sniper rifles," etc. to attack important government figures? You will never have fascism here, as long as the people are armed. If you want to look for totalitarian governments, look for them someplace where armed civilians don't outnumber the Army and police EIGHT TO ONE. I have a few suggestions. Fascism is likely to be found anywhere there is a so-called "socialist" form of government. Mussolini started out as a Socialist. So did Hitler--the English translation of the German acronym for the "Nazi" party is NSDAP---the "German National Socialist Worker's Party." Almost all fascistic parties promise the working class the moon and stars, but they always deliver the same thing: GENOCIDE. And it is only possible because the sheep turn in their rifles. Every Jew in America (as far as that goes, every Jew everywhere) should own a gun safe FULL of assault rifles and a huge stockpile of ammunition. So should every black person, every Latino, every gypsy, every hillbilly, every woman and so on and so forth. Fascism cannot prevail if the PEOPLE ARE ARMED AND DETERMINED TO RESIST. In addition to being armed, people should school themselves in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and the laws, and let their legislators know how they feel and what they want. I do not believe (any longer) in socialism of any kind. We'd be a lot better off if we lived in much more Libertarian type of society. Frankly, I could not care less if people want to use dope, drink themselves into a stupor, screw anybody and everybody that wants to screw, gamble all day and night, hold cockfights and dogfights, eat horse meat, carry guns around like the Old West, abort their children, drive shitty, polluter cars, cut down the friggin' Rain Forest and everything else. I think that all these people that are running around trying to "save" everything have got one thing and one thing only in mind--POWER. Not just power over themselves, but POWER OVER ME AND YOU. They are no different than the same sonsabitches that want power via the Homeland Security Department, or people who believe in Churchianity. All the anti-gun people, and the anti-dope people, all the abolitionists of every stripe all want one single thing--POWER. Power to compell us to live the way they think we ought to live. I've got no problem with fundamentalist Christians. I know quite a few, and they are good, honest people, but many of them are misguided. Instead of being content to live out their own lives according to God's Rules, they wish to impose these rules on others. That is wrong. I have no problem with feminists. I know quite a few (actually, I'm married to one) and they are generally good, honest people, but many of them are misguided. Instead of being content to live out their own lives according to their own beliefs, they want to impose their values and rules on the rest of society. That is wrong. I have no problem with environmentalists...well, I'll spare you. Read the paragraphs above. Persuasion is acceptable. Compulsion is not. Texas used to be almost 100% Democratic. Today, exactly the reverse is true. The Democratic Party was once entrenched in the South so deep that many Southerners had never voted for a Republican. Not so, any more. This is not the sort of country that can be overwhelmed by fascism. We are too insistent that we may be governed , but we will never be ruled. And, equally as important, we civilians own 270 million firearms. And we will not be dictated to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stylus1 Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 I strongly support the foundations for which this thread may be attacking, I love America we live in a place where we can do drugs, get drunk and fuck stupid random sluts :hatred: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaBar2 Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 Fuckin'-aye. That's the spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smart Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 Originally posted by Dr. Dazzle 14 Characteristics of Fascism 1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays. Well, you're not gonna find a country in the world that doesn't fly their flag on every government building, and affix that flag as uniform insignia on most of it's agents, like the Army or Police... In America, the vast majority of flags are privately owned and privately displayed based on the property owner's decision. The very fact that you aren't forced to fly a flag disproves this point. 2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.. What have you got for this? Mumia? Mass graves in East Dakota? 3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc. Characteristically starting in the facist country itself. This is not a foreign policy statement, it applies, rather, to internal politics, and though hundreds of U.S. citizens who are Muslims were rounded up, none were executed, some were detained and most released. Detroit didn't have any 'purge' of their Iraqi neighborhoods when we went to war with their home country... 4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized. Well, when you have the most advanced military on the planet, supremacy is a given. Your budget argument is the crux of our 2 party system, with Republicans on the military side a Democrats representing the populace. 5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male- dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homo-sexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution. Condoleeza Rice, Janet Reno, Supreme Court Justice O'Connor, hell, even Monica Lewinski would have been a maid, or jobless in any facist state... 6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common. We have left and right wing media outlets You are allowed to report any news you feel should be heard, though you should be able and willing to back up your facts. I'm not even gonna go into censorship, except to say that in Cuba it's against the law to write anti-government literature, it's also illegal to own a typewriter with out a letter from Castro's people. 7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses. Well, our national security was recently breeched, I can understand why it might be on peoples minds... 8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions. Yes, there are no Muslims, no Buddhists, no Atheists, no foreigners, no queers, no Jews in govt. office... 9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite. In America it's called laizzes faire and it's based on a French idea that it's best for the government not to fuck with the markets because they generally cause more harm than good, like Greenspan and his interest rate shifts... This isn't to say that business is without regulation, simply, without undue regulation. 10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed. Tell that to the AFL-CIO or whoever changes the light bulbs in Las Vegas (one of the few union jobs in America that has a clause passing the jobs down in familial succesion... so I've been told) 11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked. Say what you want but we still fund the NEA and countless other programs with our taxes... That "Elephant Shit Madonna" was part of a tax funded program when it was displayed to much controversy... We also payed recently to cover up some tits because John Ashcroft seems to think people will be distracted by lust when he's speaking. 12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations. Just this week Miami was compelled to pay a large sum of money because they were found liable for one policeman's brutality. Now, remember that's tax money they are forced to pay out. This is in nobody's 'best interest' except the victims... 13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders. And... you understand that every president, every term, and even in between has the option of appointing whomever they choose for the cabinet. That's how that works, he doesn't get to appoint Senators or Congressmen and only get's to submit Supreme Court nominees. 14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections. Well, yep, that's what Republicans are doing right now... but nothing to the extent that occurs in other places so I only give it partial credit, like 25%... So by my count I get 13. I got .25 of 14 Very interesting. pretty weak arguments, mostly based on hyperbolic misdirection Discuss....... Disgusted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Quickwood Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 cue: AC/DC-shot down in flames Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metallix Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 http://www.worldsocialist-cwi.org/pics/p4.gif'> " FASCISM IS THE WORST ENEMY OF WOMEN " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metallix Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 http://www.prima-news.ru/upimg/m_10116.jpg'> http://www.anu.edu.au/polsci/courses/faf/xn2.gif'> http://www.graffitiint.com/images/fascism_jpg.jpg'> http://members.aol.com/ISWoR/english/images/may02sc/russ4russ60pc.jpg'> http://www.sc.edu/library/spcoll/amlit/hemingway/newmasses3.jpg'> just some things to think about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metallix Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 besides fascism at home is an outdated concept. why have fascism at home when you can go GLOBAL. Open your eyes to the global fascist machinery being installed in front of you! And YES This begins at home! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rip Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 Originally posted by Sickboy The U.S. Military has commited terrorist like acts to lots of countries within the past 50 years. Maybe we should punish our military. I'd be ok with that. If you want facts I'd be glad to send you my social/political painting on this subject. You would have to pay me though. ummmm ok. please list out a terorist acts in the last 50 years done by the military. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_gooch Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 Originally posted by rip ummmm ok. please list out a terorist acts in the last 50 years done by the military. The burning of the branch dividian compund in waco, and ruby ridge are 2 that i can name off the top of my head, and that's just in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEE_rase_war Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 your all morons. WHAT ARE YOU DOING ABOUT IT? nothing. you dont call the shots, you never will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEE_rase_war Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 Originally posted by the_gooch The burning of the branch dividian compund in waco, and ruby ridge are 2 that i can name off the top of my head, and that's just in the US. Who is David Koresh Mr. Gooch? do the research before you call that a terrorist act. "the burning of the branch dividian compound" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_gooch Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 Originally posted by TEE_rase_war Who is David Koresh Mr. Gooch? do the research before you call that a terrorist act. "the burning of the branch dividian compound" I am well aware of who Koresh was, and I am also aware of what he ( as well as the rest of the dividians) were acused of. I don't believe everything that the government or media tells me. misinformation is one of the greatest tools that can be used to win public opinion, and/or discredit an organization or a personal entity. I watched a documentary of the events which led up the burning of that compound, and after i watched it i was disgusted by the actions of janet reno and the atf. i know what i saw, and the facts that were presented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Æ° Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 You will never have fascism here, as long as the people are armed. America's firearms are rarely raised against our own government, and I can't possibly imagine that it would be happening anytime soon. The firearms in America just assist in getting rid of the superfluous population, that's not hard to see. So our country can't be fascist just because our government allows the people to kill each other with guns? And although I don't agree with everything Kabar says, he's one of the guys on this board that I do have respect for because at one point in his life he challenged his own beliefs and probably continues to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaBar2 Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 In My Opinion The reason that America's civilian firearms have not been turned against the government is because it isn't necessary. So long as we have these firearms, and plenty of ammunition, no sane President or other national leader would even attempt to seize control of the government or attempt the garden variety coup e'etat. President Clinton and Janet Reno came as close as any national leaders since the 1960's to being faced with an actual armed uprising. I was present at meetings during both periods, and I never heard any credible New Left speaker except the Black Panther Party/People's Party II call for outright armed resistance. (PP II was a Panther-like black political organization in Houston in the late '60s-early '70's. There was a "white" counterpart called the John Brown Revolutionary League--JBRL.) Since PP II and JBRL wound up in an actual gun battle with the Houston police (in which the leader of PP II was killed and numerous people wounded, including the leader of JBRL) I always considered the late '60s and early '70s to be the apex of potential armed resistance during my lifetime. However, after the sniper murders of Sammy Weaver (14 years old) and his mother, Vicky Weaver (shot through the face while holding a 10-month-old infant), and the severe wounding of Randy Weaver and an 18-year-old neighbor, Kevin Harris, by FBI HRT snipers; and the entire U.S. Marshal's Service fiasco surrounding Randy Weaver being entrapped on an illegal sawed-off shotgun charge, the conservative right wing became very alarmed. They began organizing letter-writing campaigns and calls to their Congressmen. And the more pragmatic-minded faction began stockpiling arms and ammunition, and organizing militia groups. The attitude of the Federal law enforcement agencies was completely arrogant. I really admire Sara Weaver. At age 16, and in the middle of a fusillade of bullets, she rescued her baby sister, Elisheba, (who was covered with her mother's blood), tried to render First Aid to her mortally wounded mother, successfully saved the lives of her father and Kevin Harris (both hit by the same bullet, one of several fired in the flurry of shots that killed Vicky Weaver) and served as the chief negotiator, medic and caretaker of her sisters (Rachel and Elisheba) during the entire seige. She was a remarkably brave girl, and grew up to be a remarkable, self-assured young woman. I met her and her father at a survival exposition in 1998, five years after the siege. She has married, and has children of her own now. The attack on the Branch Davidians was, I think, a test case. I think the BATF wanted to know whether or not they could get away with such a monstrously illegal and inappropriate attack upon a private residence, without a warrant, without warning, and without taking the prevailing opinions of local law enforcement officials into account. (You guys may not realize this, but for Federal LEO's to operate in a local county, they must have the permission of the Chief Law Enforcement Official in the county, and that is usually the county Sheriff. Most of the time, the Feds get a blanket "okay" from the Sheriff, that is, they used to, until they started burning people alive in churches....) The BATF never imagined in their wildest dreams that they would not simply be able to roll right over the Branch Davidians. They were anticipating a big glory-hog TV special, showing how the glorious BATF smacked the ignorant, redneck Bible-thumpers and they cowered in fear from the mighty U.S. government. Well, they probably could have arrested David Koresh without much problem, if they had simply sent the Sheriff out there with a warrant and a knock on the door. But they didn't want that, they wanted a big dramatic TV "dynamic entry" bust to glorify and glamorize the BATF right before the Congressional BATF budget hearings. Instead, they got their asses shot off by a bunch of barely-trained Bible students. They are damned lucky they weren't facing the former Marines and Army soldiers of the Texas Constitutional Militia, because if they had been, their casualty rate would have been a lot closer to 100%. Unlike the Branch Davidians, the Texas militia knows how to fight. Four BATF agents KIA, and eleven WIA. They retreated with their hands held above their heads, dragging their dead and wounded, with empty weapons. If these people had attacked my home, and killed men, women and children in an unprovoked, unwarranted attack WITHOUT A LEGAL WARRANT FROM A MAGISTRATE, WITHOUT ANY ANNOUNCEMENT OF "FEDERAL OFFICERS--COME OUT WITH YOUR HANDS UP!", WITHOUT ANY OPPORTUNITY TO SURRENDER PEACEFULLY, I seriously doubt that I would have been able to show them the Christian charity and mercy that the Branch Davidians gave them. Had they attacked me, my friends, and my family, I would not have stopped firing until either they were all dead, or I ran out of ammunition. These officers of the BATF broke the law in the State of Texas. At the trial of the surviving Branch Davidians, the jury was told that there was a deal (to prevent the jury from declaring the Davidian "not guilty") that if they convicted them, the judge would put them on probation. He did not. They are in prison today, for defending themselves, FALSELY CONVICTED OF CRIMES THEY DID NOT COMMIT. It is a travesty of justice. The Sheriff said publicly that the BATF is no longer welcome in his county, and the Texas Rangers say privately that there were several tense moments when the very real possibility existed of the Rangers arresting FBI men at gunpoint. The FBI lied, they concealed evidence, and in general behaved completely unprofessionally and very definately unconstitutionally. The response in Texas was volatile. I attended a militia meeting in a Baptist church in Houston where there were men shouting for immediate retaliation against the Feds. People were furious. At a single meeting, I saw thirty-five men raise their hands and join the TCM. (When I enlisted in the Marine Corps, there were only eight of us, and a female Navy officer swore us in. It didn't have 1/100th as much passion and sincerity as the induction ceremony that night in that church.) Cooler heads prevailed. The leader of the TCM in Houston was careful to assign the hotheads to units headed up by level-headed, mature individuals. As a nurse, I was part of a medical committee. We had two physicians, a dentist, four RN's, several LVN's and patient care technicians and a raft of female volunteers who we trained as medics. TCM was not the only organization in Houston. We knew of several other miltia and militia-like organizations, some of which we approached in an attempt to ally with them. The most extreme of them refused to even talk to us. They said we were fools for even meeting in public. Their organization was completely clandestine, and they asked us to not contact them again. In the surrounding area outside of Houston, I know of at least four other militia-like organizations, each with it's own training area, each with it's own agenda, separate and insulated from each other. TCM trained in Sam Houston National Forest. They trained on privately owned land near Cut and Shoot, Texas, and in Conroe. They trained on a privately owned 300+ acre family farm on the Brazos River. That facility had rifle ranges, and varied terrain for realistic combat training. People purchased 4x4 trucks, Jeeps, vans. We were doing a land-market business in military field equipment, camouflage uniforms and other gear. Weapons were strictly legal, individually acquired, but to unit specifications. Sometimes we would encounter campers or hikers when we were out training. Once a guy asked me "Are you guys in the National Guard?" It was not at all uncommon for one member to own six or eight assault rifles and scores of magazines, acquired in order to arm volunteers, if it should actually come to a fight. I can't speak about other militia organizations in other states, but Texas came alive like a hornet's nest. I heard an estimation on TV that there were an estimate 90.000 militia members, nationwide. That was probably a conservative estimate. Without any violence on the civilians' part, the message was clearly and accurately conveyed to the Clinton Administration: Stop killing people. The Oklahoma City bombing tragedy changed everything. When that occurred, the militia movement pretty much completely stopped doing anything in public. The camouflage went in the back of the closet and stayed there. Once George W. got elected, the militia groups just quietly disappeared. I still see the guys I knew back then, once in a while. We don't talk about it much. I think seven years of training sort of wore everybody out, towards the end. But I've still got my stuff. And so does everybody else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_gooch Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 Re: In My Opinion Originally posted by KaBar2 The reason that America's civilian firearms have not been turned against the government is because it isn't necessary. So long as we have these firearms, and plenty of ammunition, no sane President or other national leader would even attempt to seize control of the government or attempt the garden variety coup e'etat. President Clinton and Janet Reno came as close as any national leaders since the 1960's to being faced with an actual armed uprising. I was present at meetings during both periods, and I never heard any credible New Left speaker except the Black Panther Party/People's Party II call for outright armed resistance. (PP II was a Panther-like black political organization in Houston in the late '60s-early '70's. There was a "white" counterpart called the John Brown Revolutionary League--JBRL.) Since PP II and JBRL wound up in an actual gun battle with the Houston police (in which the leader of PP II was killed and numerous people wounded, including the leader of JBRL) I always considered the late '60s and early '70s to be the apex of potential armed resistance during my lifetime. However, after the sniper murders of Sammy Weaver (14 years old) and his mother, Vicky Weaver (shot through the face while holding a 10-month-old infant), and the severe wounding of Randy Weaver and an 18-year-old neighbor, Kevin Harris, by FBI HRT snipers, the entire U.S. Marshal's Service fiasco surrounding Randy Weaver being entrapped on an illegal sawed-off shotgun charge, the conservative right wing became very alarmed. They began organizing letter-writing campaigns and calls to their Congressmen. And the more pragmatic-minded faction began stockpiling arms and ammunition, and organizing militia groups. The attitude of the Federal law enforcement agencies was completely arrogant. I really admire Sara Weaver. At age 16, and in the middle of a fusillade of bullets, she rescued her baby sister (who was covered with her mother's blood), tried to render First Aid to her mortally wounded mother, successfully saved the lives of her father and Kevin Harris (both hit by the same bullet, one of several fired in the flurry of shots that killed Vicky Weaver) and served as the chief negotiator, medic and caretaker of her sisters during the entire seige. She was a remarkably brave girl, and grew up to be a remarkable, self-assured young woman. I met her and her father at a survival exposition in 1998, five years after the siege. She has married, and has children of her own now. The attack on the Branch Davidians was, I think, a test case. I think the BATF wanted to know whether or not they could get away with such a monstrously illegal and inappropriate attack upon a private residence, without a warrant, without warning, and without taking the prevailing opinions of local law enforcement officials into account. (You guys may not realize this, but for Federal LEO's to operate in a local county, they must have the permission of the Chief Law Enforcement Official in the county, and that is usually the county Sheriff. Most of the time, the Feds get a blanket "okay" from the Sheriff, that is, they used to, until they started burning people alive in churches....) The BATF never imagined in their wildest dreams that they would not simply be able to roll right over the Branch Davidians. They were anticipating a big glory-hog TV special, showing how the glorious BATF smacked the ignorant, redneck Bible-thumpers and they cowered in fear from the mighty U.S. government. Well, they probably could have arrested David Koresh without much problem, if they had simply sent the Sheriff out there with a warrant and a knock on the door. But they didn't want that, they wanted a big dramatic TV "dynamic entry" bust to glorify and glamorize the BATF right before the Congressional BATF budget hearings. Instead, they got their asses shot off by a bunch of barely-trained Bible students. They are damned lucky they weren't facing the former Marines and Army soldiers of the Texas Constitutional Militia, because if they had been, their casualty rate would have been a lot closer to 100%. Unlike the Branch Davidians, the Texas militia knows how to fight. Four BATF agents KIA, and eleven WIA. They retreated with their hands held above their heads, dragging their dead and wounded, with empty weapons. If these people had attacked my home, and killed men, women and children in an unprovoked, unwarranted attack WITHOUT A LEGAL WARRANT FROM A MAGISTRATE, WITHOUT ANY ANNOUNCEMENT OF "FEDERAL OFFICERS--COME OUT WITH YOUR HANDS UP!", WITHOUT ANY OPPORTUNITY TO SURRENDER PEACEFULLY, I seriously doubt that I would have been able to show them the Christian charity and mercy that the Branch Davidians gave them. Had they attacked me, my friends, and my family, I would not have stopped firing until either they were all dead, or I ran out of ammunition. These officers of the BATF broke the law in the State of Texas. At the trial of the surviving Branch Davidians, the jury was told that there was a deal (to prevent the jury from declaring the Davidian "not guilty") that if they convicted them, the judge would put them on probation. He did not. They are in prison today, for defending themselves, FALSELY CONVICTED OF CRIMES THEY DID NOT COMMIT. It is a travesty of justice. The Sheriff said publicly that the BATF is no longer welcome in his county, and the Texas Rangers say privately that there were several tense moments when the very real possibility existed of the Rangers arresting FBI men at gunpoint. The FBI lied, they concealed evidence, and in general behaved completely unprofessionally and very definately unconstitutionally. The response in Texas was volatile. I attended a militia meeting in a Baptist church in Houston where there were men shouting for immediate retaliation against the Feds. People were furious. At a single meeting, I saw thirty-five men raise their hands and join the TCM. (When I enlisted in the Marine Corps, there were only eight of us, and a female Navy officer swore us in. It didn't have 1/100th as much passion and sincerity as the induction ceremony that night in that church.) Cooler heads prevailed. The leader of the TCM in Houston was careful to assign the hotheads to units headed up by level-headed, mature individuals. As a nurse, I was part of a medical committee. We had two physicians, a dentist, four RN's, several LVN's and patient care technicians and a raft of female volunteers who we trained as medics. TCM was not the only organization in Houston. We knew of several other miltia and militia-like organizations, some of which we approached in an attempt to ally with them. The most extreme of them refused to even talk to us. They said we were fools for even meeting in public. Their organization was completely clandestine, and they asked us to not contact them again. In the surrounding area outside of Houston, I know of at least four other militia-like organizations, each with it's own training area, each with it's own agenda, separate and insulated from each other. TCM trained in Sam Houston National Forest. They trained on privately owned land near Cut and Shoot, Texas, and in Conroe. They trained on a privately owned 300+ acre family farm on the Brazos River. That facility had rifle ranges, and varied terrain for realistic combat training. People purchased 4x4 trucks, Jeeps, vans. We were doing a land-market business in military field equipment, camouflage uniforms and other gear. Weapons were strictly legal, individually acquired, but to unit specifications. Sometimes we would encounter campers or hikers when we were out training. Once a guy asked me "Are you guys in the National Guard?" It was not at all uncommon for one member to own six or eight assault rifles and scores of magazines, acquired in order to arm volunteers, if it should actually come to a fight. I can't speak about other militia organizations in other states, but Texas came alive like a hornet's nest. I heard an estimation on TV that there were an estimate 90.000 militia members, nationwide. That was probably a conservative estimate. Without any violence on the civilians' part, the message was clearly and accurately conveyed to the Clinton Administration: Stop killing people. The Oklahoma City bombing tragedy changed everything. When that occurred, the militia movement pretty much completely stopped doing anything in public. The camouflage went in the back of the closet and stayed there. Once George W. got elected, the militia groups just quietly disappeared. I still see the guys I knew back then, once in a while. We don't talk about it much. I think seven years of training sort of wore everybody out, towards the end. But I've still got my stuff. And so does everybody else. excellent points! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Clean Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 fuck this thead. fuckin do something about it if it pisses you off that much. GO TO CANADA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaBar2 Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 Nah. I'll stay right here in Texas, thanks. Been to Canada. It was okay, I liked the people, but the government sucks a big one. A lot of the Canadian people I met in western Canada are a shitload more conservative than their government, and they hid their guns instead of turning them in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metallix Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 http://www.ericweisstein.com/images/meaning-of-life.jpg'> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villain Posted September 8, 2003 Share Posted September 8, 2003 rip: Our country DOES train terrorists for it's own purposes.... I've read several articles on some of these individuals and their antics. What used to be known as the School of the Americas (they changed the name after 9/11 to avoid exposure, I have the new name somewhere if I can dig it up) actually trained terrorists and dictators. I used to go by that school every day on my way to the DFAC at Ft. Benning. 6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common. ^^^ I really think this point should be in bold because it is the most powerful and important. "Mind control the easiest way, sponsored by the CIA. It's a weapon you cannot see, it's propaganda subliminally."-- SxTx You control peoples perception of reality you control thier reality. Media has slowly been conglomerated into only a few.... especially newspapers have. The spontenaeity of live debate on TV tends to keep things alive sometimes though. I know from personal experience there is alot of corruption and things are not always as they seem. But those people who just go to thier 9 to 5 come home to thier white picket fenced house w/ the 2 car garage and the 1.5 kids those people are the ones who are the most clueless. They practically live autonomously in a bubble unaware of what even goes on just down the street, content to sit on their laurels as long as nothing out there affects them. I was never one of those people. Kabar: I do think that figure 90,000 is rather conservative because I think michigan alone has more than that by my own estimates. I think that instead of voting in these coming elections I'm going to officially join a militia instead. We have arms, but do we have our minds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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