Dean Hopes and Green Dreams(elections '04)

[Guest BROWNer]

Dean Hopes and Green Dreams

Norman Solomon, _August 26, 2003

 

 

-[editor's note]FAIR's Norman Solomon breaks down on why_you shouldn't trust Dean, why the Greens need a new strategy and why regime change in the White House is still job one.-

 

 

Part I: Progressives and the Dean Campaign

 

Let's take Howard Dean at his word: "I was a triangulator before Clinton was a triangulator. In my soul, I'm a moderate."

 

Plenty of evidence backs up that comment by the former Vermont governor to the New York Times Magazine a few months ago. The self-comparison with Clinton is apt. "During his five two-year terms as governor," the magazine noted, "Dean was proud to be known as a pragmatic New Democrat, in the Clinton mold, boasting that neither the far right nor the far left had much use for him."

 

Of course, what a mainstream publication is apt to call "the far left" often includes large progressive constituencies. In the battle for the '04 Democratic presidential nomination, Dean clearly finds grassroots progressives to be quite useful for his purposes. But is he truly useful for ours?

 

This summer, many news stories have identified Howard Dean with the left. But Dean's actual record verifies this assessment from University of Vermont political science professor Garrison Nelson: "He's really a classic Rockefeller Republican -- a fiscal conservative and social liberal." After seven years as governor, the Associated Press described Dean as "a clear conservative on fiscal issues" and added: "This is, after all, the governor who has at times tried to cut benefits for the aged, blind and disabled, whose No. 1 priority is a balanced budget."

 

Economic justice has been a much lower priority. During the early 1990s, Dean spearheaded a new "workfare" state law requiring labor from welfare recipients. The Vermont program later won praise as more humane "welfare reform" than what occurred in most other states. But in the summer of 1996, Dean put his weight behind the final push for President Clinton's national "welfare reform" law -- a draconian measure, slashing at an already shabby safety-net while forcing impoverished mothers to work low-wage jobs.

 

While some other Democrats angrily opposed Clinton's welfare reform, it won avid support from Dean. "Liberals like Marian Wright Edelman are wrong," he insisted. "The bill is strong on work, time limits assistance and provides adequate protection for children." Dean co-signed a letter to Clinton calling the measure "a real step forward."

 

Gov. Dean did not mind polarizing with poor people, but he got along better with the corporate sector. "Conservative Vermont business leaders praise Dean's record and his unceasing efforts to balance the budget, even though Vermont is the only state where a balanced budget is not constitutionally required," Business Week reported in its August 11 (2003) edition. "Moreover, they argue that the two most liberal policies adopted during Dean's tenure -- the 'civil unions' law and a radical revamping of public school financing -- were instigated by Vermont's ultraliberal Supreme Court rather than Dean." The magazine added: "Business leaders were especially impressed with the way Dean went to bat for them if they got snarled in the state's stringent environmental regulations."

 

According to Business Week, "those who know him best believe Dean is moving to the left to boost his chances of winning the nomination." A longtime Dean backer named Bill Stenger, a Vermont Republican who's president of Jay Peak Resort, predicted: "If he gets the nomination, he'll run back to the center and be more mainstream."

 

Dean supporters can point to real pluses in his record; he accomplished some positive things in Vermont, including programs for the environment and health care. During the past year, on a wide range of issues, his tough criticisms of the Bush administration have often been articulate. And many Dean activists are glad to be supporting a candidate who came out against the war on Iraq.

 

Howard Dean does deserve some credit as a foe of the war. Yet it would be a mistake to view him as an opponent of militarism.

 

Dean seems to agree. During an August 23 interview with the Washington Post, he said: "I don't even consider myself a dove."

 

I found it conspicuous that Dean did not include the word "Iraq" in the 26-minute speech he gave at his official campaign kickoff in late June (at a time when criticism of the war was generally receding, just before the uproar over Bush's State-of-the-Union deception on the Niger uranium forgery). But some Dean supporters pointed out that the speech had antiwar themes -- for example, declaring that "we are not to conquer and suppress other nations to submit to our will" and denouncing the Bush team for "a form of unilateralism that is even more dangerous than isolationism." However, such rhetoric -- much of which has become boilerplate among several mainstream Democratic candidates -- is not as impressive as it might appear at first glance.

 

What if a Washington-driven war is not "unilateral"? What if the U.N. Security Council can be carrot-and-sticked into a supportive stance? What about "multilateral" wars -- on Iraq in 1991, on Yugoslavia in 1999, on Afghanistan -- that gained wide backing from other governments? Dean expresses support for such wars.

 

Meanwhile, Dean has declared his opposition to a pullout of U.S. troops from Iraq -- as though what the Pentagon is doing there now doesn't amount to continuation of the war he opposed. "We cannot permit ourselves to lose the peace in Iraq," Dean was saying in August. "We cannot withdraw from Iraq." But given the illegitimacy of the war on Iraq, what legitimate right does the U.S. government have to keep military control of Iraq? And isn't verbiage about not wanting to "lose the peace" a classic rhetorical way to rationalize continuation of war by the conquering army?

 

During a recent interview, reported in the Washington Post on August 25, Dean emphasized that his opposition to the war on Iraq should not be confused with opposing the current -- and future -- occupation of Iraq. "Now that we're there, we're stuck," he said. While Dean reiterated that the war was "foolish" and "wrong," he staked out a position that the Post described as "whoever will be elected in 2004 has to live with it." Dean said: "We have no choice. It's a matter of national security. If we leave and we don't get a democracy in Iraq, the result is very significant danger to the United States."

 

Dean does not give much indication that he wants to challenge Uncle Sam's imperial capabilities. On the contrary: Dean has opposed cutting the budget for routine U.S. military expenditures that now add up to well over $1 billion per day. And while his campaign kickoff speech stated that "there is a fundamental difference between the defense of our nation and the doctrine of preemptive war espoused by this administration," surely Dean knows -- or should know -- that much of the Pentagon's budget has absolutely nothing to do with "defense of our nation."

 

Actually, Dean has gone out of his way to distance himself from a straightforward cut-the-military-budget position that should be integral to any progressive candidacy. At a forum this summer, another presidential candidate, Rep. Dennis Kucinich, said that "the only way we're really going to close the (digital) divide in this country is to start cutting the Pentagon budget and put that money into education." Dean's response was notable: "I don't agree with Dennis about cutting the Pentagon budget when we're in the middle of a difficulty with terror attacks."

 

As if the huge Pentagon budget could not be appreciably cut without making us more vulnerable to "terror attacks"!

 

Overall, the problem with puffing up Dean -- or claiming that he represents progressive values -- goes beyond a failure of truth-in-labeling. It also involves an insidious redefinition, in public discourse, of what it means to be progressive in the first place.

 

Dean activists like to say that their man has the best chance of beating Bush next year. But supporters of almost every Democratic presidential hopeful say the same thing -- and, like Dean's partisans, have scant basis for making the claim. In fact, it's mere conjecture that Dean would be the nominee most likely to defeat Bush.

 

On a full range of issues -- from international trade to health care to labor rights to welfare to criminal justice and the drug war to federal spending priorities to environmental protection to gay rights to the death penalty to foreign policy -- Dean's positions are markedly inferior to Kucinich's platform. So why not battle to get as many Democratic convention delegates as possible for Kucinich? Granted, he's very unlikely to be nominated. But a hefty Kucinich delegate count would be a strong progressive statement within the Democratic Party and would provide a louder national megaphone for the values that we share. Kucinich speaks for progressives on virtually every issue. In sharp contrast, Dean does not.

 

I admire the creativity and commitment that many activists have brought to their work for Dean. Yet his campaign for the nomination offers few benefits and major pitfalls. If Dean becomes the Democratic presidential candidate next year, at that point there would be many good reasons to see him as a practical tool for defeating Bush. But in the meantime, progressive energies and support should go elsewhere.

 

Part II: The Green Party and the '04 Presidential Campaign

 

Activists have plenty of good reasons to challenge the liberal Democratic Party operatives who focus on election strategy while routinely betraying progressive ideals. Unfortunately, the national Green Party now shows appreciable signs of the flip side -- focusing on admirable ideals without plausible strategy. Running Ralph Nader for president is on the verge of becoming a kind of habitual crutch -- used even when the effect is more damaging than helpful.

 

It's impossible to know whether the vote margin between Bush and his Democratic challenger will be narrow or wide in November 2004. I've never heard a credible argument that a Nader campaign might help to defeat Bush next year. A Nader campaign might have no significant effect on Bush's chances -- or it could turn out to help Bush win. With so much at stake, do we really want to roll the dice this way?

 

We're told that another Nader campaign will help to build the Green Party. But Nader's prospects of coming near his nationwide 2000 vote total of 2.8 million are very slim; much more probable is that a 2004 campaign would win far fewer votes -- hardly an indicator of, or contributor to, a growing national party. It appears to me that the entire project of running a Green presidential candidate in 2004 is counter-productive. Some faithful will be energized, with a number of predictably uplifting "super rallies" along the way, but many past and potential Green voters are likely to consciously drift away. Such a campaign will generate much alienation and bitterness from natural constituencies. Ironically, the current Green party-building agenda looks like a scenario for actually damaging the party.

 

Green organizers often insist that another presidential run is necessary so that the party can energize itself and stay on the ballot in various states. But it would be much better to find other ways to retain ballot access while running stronger Green campaigns in selected local races. Overall, I don't believe that a Green Party presidential campaign in 2004 will help build a viable political alternative from below.

 

Some activists contend that the Greens will maintain leverage over the Democratic Party by conveying a firm intention to run a presidential candidate. I think that's basically an illusion. The prospect of a Green presidential campaign is having very little effect on the Democratic nomination contest, and there's no reason to expect that to change. The Democrats are almost certain to nominate a "moderate" corporate flack (in which category Howard Dean should be included).

 

A few years ago, Nader and some others articulated the theory that throwing a scare into the Democrats would move them in a more progressive direction. That theory was disproved after November 2000. As a whole, congressional Democrats have not become more progressive since then.

 

There has been a disturbing tendency among some Greens to conflate the Democratic and Republican parties. Yes, the agendas of the two major parties overlap. But they also diverge. And in some important respects, any of the Democratic presidential contenders would be clearly better than Bush (with the exception of Joseph Lieberman, whose nomination appears to be quite unlikely). For the left to be "above the fray" would be a big mistake. It should be a matter of great concern -- not indifference or mild interest -- as to whether the Bush gang returns to power for four more years.

 

I'm not suggesting that progressives mute their voices about issues. The imperative remains to keep speaking out and organizing. As Martin Luther King Jr. said on April 30, 1967: "When machines and computers, profit motives and property rights are considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism, militarism and economic exploitation are incapable of being conquered." The left should continue to denounce all destructive policies and proposals, whether being promoted by Republicans or Democrats.

 

At the same time, we should not gloss over the reality that the Bush team has neared some elements of fascism in its day-to-day operations -- and forces inside the Bush administration would be well-positioned to move it even farther to the right after 2004. We don't want to find out how fascistic a second term of George W. Bush's presidency could become. The current dire circumstances should bring us up short and cause us to re-evaluate approaches to '04. The left has a responsibility to contribute toward a broad coalition to defeat Bush next year.

 

There are some Green Party proposals for a "safe states" strategy, with the party's presidential nominee concentrating on states that seem sure to go for either Bush or the Democrat. But it's not always clear whether a state is "safe" (for instance, how about California?). And the very act of a Green campaign focusing on some "safe states" might render a few of those states more susceptible to a Bush upset win. An additional factor is that presidential campaigns are largely nationwide.

 

In 2000, despite unfair exclusion from the debates and the vast majority of campaign news coverage, Nader did appear on national radio and TV to a significant extent. And of course, more than ever, the Internet is teeming with progressive websites, listservs and e-mail forwarding. It doesn't seem very practical to run as a national candidate while effectively urging people in some states not to vote for you when they see your name on the bal

 

lot -- even if the candidate is inclined toward such a strategy. And that's a big "if." For all its talk of democratic accountability, the Green Party is hooked into the old-fashioned notion that a candidate, once nominated, decides how and where to campaign. It's ironic that the party is likely to end up with a presidential candidate who will conduct the campaign exactly as he chooses, with no built-in post-nomination accountability to any constituency or group decision-making. Kind of sounds like the major parties in that respect; choose the candidate and the candidate does whatever he wants from that point forward.

 

No doubt, too many Democratic Party officials have been arrogant toward Green Party supporters. "Democrats have to face reality and understand that if they move too far to the right, millions of voters will defect or vote for third-party candidates," Tom Hayden pointed out in a recent article . "Democrats have to swallow hard and accept the right of the Green Party and Ralph Nader to exist and compete." At the same time, Hayden added cogently, "Nader and the Greens need a reality check. The notion that the two major parties are somehow identical may be a rationale for building a third party, but it insults the intelligence of millions of blacks, Latinos, women, gays, environmentalists and trade unionists who can't afford the indulgence of Republican rule."

 

The presidency of George W. Bush is not a garden-variety Republican administration. By unleashing its policies in this country and elsewhere in the world, the Bush gang has greatly raised the stakes of the next election. The incumbent regime's blend of extreme militarism and repressive domestic policy should cause the left to take responsibility for helping to oust this far-right administration -- rather than deferring to dubious scenarios for Green party-building.

 

In an August essay, Michael Albert of Z Magazine wrote: "One post election result we want is Bush retired. However bad his replacement may turn out, replacing Bush will improve the subsequent mood of the world and its prospects of survival. Bush represents not the whole ruling class and political elite, but a pretty small sector of it. That sector, however, is trying to reorder events so that the world is run as a U.S. empire, and so that social programs and relations that have been won over the past century in the U.S. are rolled back as well. What these parallel international and domestic aims have in common is to further enrich and empower the already super rich and super powerful."

 

Albert pointed out some of the foreseeable consequences of another Bush term: "Seeking international Empire means war and more war -- or at least violent coercion. Seeking domestic redistribution upward of wealth and power, most likely means assaulting the economy via cutbacks and deficits, and then entreating the public that the only way to restore functionality is to terminate government programs that serve sectors other than the rich, cutting health care, social services, education, etc." And Albert added: "These twin scenarios will not be pursued so violently or aggressively by Democrats due to their historic constituency. More, the mere removal of Bush will mark a step toward their reversal."

 

Looking past the election, Albert is also on target: "We want to have whatever administration is in power after Election Day saddled by a fired up movement of opposition that is not content with merely slowing Armageddon, but that instead seeks innovative and aggressive social gains. We want a post election movement to have more awareness, more hope, more infrastructure, and better organization by virtue of the approach it takes to the election process."

 

I'm skeptical that the Green Party's leadership is open to rigorously pursue a thoroughgoing safe-states approach along the lines that Albert has suggested in his essay . Few of the prominent Green organizers seem sufficiently flexible. For instance, one Green Party leader who advocates "a Strategic States Plan" for 2004 has gone only so far as to say that "most" of the party's resources should be focused on states "where the Electoral College votes are not 'in play.'" Generally the proposals coming from inside the Green Party seem equivocal, indicating that most party leaders are unwilling to really let go of traditional notions of running a national presidential campaign.

 

I'm a green. But these days, in the battle for the presidency, I'm not a Green. Here in the United States, the Green Party is dealing with an electoral structure that's very different from the parliamentary systems that have provided fertile ground for Green parties in Europe. We're up against the winner-take-all U.S. electoral system. Yes, there are efforts to implement "instant runoff voting," but those efforts will not transform the electoral landscape in this decade. And we should focus on this decade precisely because it will lead the way to the next ones.

 

By now it's an open secret that Ralph Nader is almost certain to run for president again next year. Nader has been a brilliant and inspirational progressive for several decades. I supported his presidential campaigns in 1996 and 2000. I won't in 2004. The reasons are not about the past but about the future.

[space base]

When you hear my rap, you better cock yours back... :cachikt:

[mental invalid]

i know its alot to read.....print it out and take it the shitter with you if need be...

[Guest BROWNer]

hahaha, it is so NOT alot to read.

people don't read much these days huh?

[mental invalid]

actually it sorta scares me sometimes dood....

 

 

but hell if they take it to the shitter or outside when they smoke a butt at work, then im happy.....

[RiANEMeTion-]

Hmm..

[Guest BROWNer]

poop man, i was hoping you'd drop by...

do you find solomon's argument persuasive?

previous posts tell me your fairly staunch on

the dean scene.....

just curious..

[Guest TEARZ]

i'm interested too. i'm absolutely baffled that all this leftist support is going to dean and kucinich is largely ignored.... are we really THAT about tv and internet and media? i was hoping that issues might play are larger role than opportunity and image, perhaps i overestimated. kucinich just has the best platform, it's pretty basic. when pundits and polls and commercials are thrown out the window, that's just the way it is.

 

on another note, the greens in my state have motioned to support kucinich already, and they are very close to an endorsement. i volunteer on the kucinich campaign, and there are 4-5 greens working for kucinich; hell, the president of the local chapter is a head dude in the local kucinich campaign.

[caL]

Originally posted by RiANEMeTion-

Hmm..

[Guest TEARZ]

fuck it i said it

 

dean is a sham. that's just the way i feel. good find browner.

[phism]

the thing about dean, on the most basic level, is that he's the only one outwardly against the pnac (http://www.newamericancentury.org). and a lot of people, especially progressives, are wanting to do whatever it takes to stop the warmongering... unfortunately, it does seem that the economy is still a secondary issue, which isn't good either... but i guess i'd put them in that order myself...

 

http://www.arc-nine.com/gallery/albums/other/markerboard1.jpg'>

[Guest BROWNer]

not analytical, but a favourable read on howie dean's ny visit from salon.

[Guest TEARZ]

PMB Duckin' Out??

 

haha, jus kidding homey, but i'm interested on the PMB thoughts and a dean supporter's thoughts in general....

browner, would you say that you are a kucinich advocate at this point? where you at homey?

[23578]

i watched him in New York, i turned it on late. graffiti on a billboard in the background, but his message was suprisingly triangulating, although with two legs, mod and conservative, of that triangle alot stronger than the liberal one. did anyone thank the artists for their work anyway. his biggest attractions are what's been given to him and his public internet campaign. nader said he was unelectable, but he and kucinich were the only good men that the dems had up this time. me, i am beginning to think he's electable, but doubting more and more that he's a good choice. i admit that i haven't looked into kucinich, but if i were registered i'd hint at a vote for him in the primary, but still vote dean. he's the only one that's going on, which is the same with this guy saying he's green going dean. he's not a dove, but he's less scary.

[Guest BROWNer]

paprika farts:

i am definitely a kucinich supporter.

i have been since i found out about him, BUT..i am

still learning about the whole process which is why

i was suddenly all over dean for a quick second. if

i was an american citizen, i would be throwing

everything i had behind kucinich mos def.

i too am interested in pmb's steelo, and anyone

else's for that matter, and not to cut it down or

measure it agains solomon's argument or

whatever, just curious to hear other viewpoints/reasoning..

[Guest TEARZ]

wurd up cilantro buntsz.

[Kr430n5_666]

http://www.brown.edu/webmaster/images/live_3.jpg'>

COOL!

[Guest BROWNer]

^

[mental invalid]

a double duo....perhaps dynamic

 

not sure if i voiced yet my fondness for gen clark....and my desire to see him run......anywho

 

 

 

 

Gen. Clark Reportedly Is Asked to Join Dean

 

 

 

By Jim VandeHei and Dan Balz, Washington Post Staff Writers

 

Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean (news - web sites) has asked retired Army Gen. Wesley Clark to join his campaign, if the former NATO (news - web sites) commander does not jump into the race himself next week, and the two men discussed the vice presidency at a weekend meeting in California, sources familiar with the discussions said.

 

 

Clark, in a telephone interview yesterday, said he did not want to comment about the private meeting. Asked about reports that the two men had discussed a wide range of issues, including endorsing Dean, joining the campaign, possible roles in a Dean administration and the vice presidency, he said only, "It was a complete tour of the horizon."

 

 

Later, an adviser quoted Clark as saying, "I have only one decision to make: Will I seek the presidency?"

 

 

It was the fourth time Dean and Clark have met face-to-face to discuss the campaign. No decisions were made at the California meeting because Clark is still considering a run for president. Clark is scheduled to make a speech Sept.19 at the University of Iowa, when many political insiders expect him to announce his intentions.

 

 

"Most of our conversations have been around my getting advice on defense, and sometime he asks me about domestic issues," Dean said in an interview yesterday. "This is a guy I like a lot. I think he's certainly going to be on everybody's list if he's not the presidential nominee himself." Dean declined to discuss their private conversations.

 

 

While it would represent a gamble for both men to team up so early in the campaign, such a move would rattle an already unpredictable nomination campaign. Dean and Clark have two things in common that if combined could prove formidable among Democratic voters: They both opposed the war in Iraq (news - web sites), and both are generating excitement on the Internet and with grass-roots activists.

 

 

But a Dean-Clark alliance would also underscore the relative inexperience that both men have in national campaigns. Clark has never run for political office, and Dean has created controversy for his off-the-cuff remarks last week on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

 

 

Last week, Dean said the United States should not "take sides" in the Middle East conflict and said that an "enormous" number of Israeli settlements would have to be dismantled as part of a peace agreement. Yesterday, Dean shifted course, saying the settlements should be left to negotiators.

 

 

The governor's original comments angered a number of Jewish leaders and drew rebukes from two rivals, Sen. Joseph I. Lieberman (D-Conn.) and Sen. John F. Kerry (D-Mass.). Dean came under fire yesterday from a group of House Democrats for his comments on the Middle East. "This is not a time to be sending mixed messages," the Democrats, including Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (Calif.) and Rep. Steny H. Hoyer (Md.), wrote to Dean.

 

 

Dean has increasingly talked up Clark as a possible running mate or as a presidential candidate, pointing to the general's 33-year military record, which included a victory in Kosovo as commander of NATO forces in Europe. Dean's laudatory comments have fueled speculation among top Democrats that the two men might join forces soon on a Dean-Clark 2004 campaign.

 

 

Dean's campaign played down the significance of the talks. "I am certain along the way we have made it clear we would welcome General Clark's support in the campaign, but I am assuming other Democratic campaigns have done the same," said Joe Trippi, Dean's campaign manager. Trippi refused to discuss the meeting in California.

 

 

Other Democratic candidates have reached out to Clark, too, with Kerry talking to him by phone during the last week. But none apparently has courted the general as aggressively as Dean, a Clark adviser said. Rep. Richard A. Gephardt (news - web sites) (D-Mo.) said he has not talked to Clark in weeks and would welcome him into the race. "I never worry about who's in the race," Gephardt said.

 

 

Clark has been making the rounds of Democratic donors and Washington insiders for months as part of his exploration of a presidential campaign. More recently, he has been meeting with Democratic strategists who have expertise in managing presidential campaigns. Among those to whom he has reached out are Mark Fabiani, who ran the communications operation for Al Gore (news - web sites)'s 2000 campaign and worked in the Clinton White House.

 

 

If Clark joins the presidential race, which some prominent Democrats predict he will do, he would become the 10th candidate. Still other Democrats think Clark will not run, partly because he would enter well behind Dean in both fundraising and grass-roots support. Clark has sent mixed signals in recent days, leaving some Democrats he has talked to with the impression that he is in, others with a suspicion that he is out.

 

 

Recent polls show nearly two-thirds of voters cannot name even one of the nine candidates, so there is room for a new candidate to move, some strategists think. But recent polls show Clark is not widely known and would enter near the back of the pack.

 

 

He would not enter empty-handed. DraftWesleyClark.com officials said they have generated pledges of more than $1 million for a Clark campaign. Dean's campaign has said it will raise at least $10 million this quarter and other campaign strategists expect that number to be significantly higher.

 

 

The Draft Clark organization has begun running 60-second commercial spots in Iowa, New Hampshire and Clark's home state of Arkansas, prodding Clark to run. Another Clark organization, DraftClark2004.com, reports having grass-roots groups in numerous states.

[nomadawhat]

Re: a double duo....perhaps dynamic

 

Originally in the article posted by mental invalid

Recent polls show nearly two-thirds of voters cannot name even one of the nine candidates, so there is room for a new candidate to move, some strategists think. But recent polls show Clark is not widely known and would enter near the back of the pack.

 

 

isn't that a contradiction.... 2/3rd's can't name 1 canidate but clark is widley unkown so he would enter in the back of the pack.... to 66% all of them are unknown...

 

anyways dean want's to get clark on his team early because he fears clark is the only canidate who can beat him if he entered the race..... just my thought.

[Guest imported_El Mamerro]

Re: Re: a double duo....perhaps dynamic

 

Originally posted by nomadawhat

anyways dean want's to get clark on his team early because he fears clark is the only canidate who can beat him if he entered the race..... just my thought.

 

Nah... Dean saw the Dennis Kucinich/Willie Nelson duo, and said "Them nigs iz gangsta, bettah get strapped quick".

 

http://www.kucinich.us/willienelson.htm

[Poop Man Bob]

Sorry, sorry .. I finally found my way into this thread to see I've been called out three times to answer! Yipes.

 

I already said my lot in this thread re: Dean not being progressive.

 

It boils down to this: I agree.

 

Reasons for his large amount of support amongst the progressive community are also dealt with (albeit weakly) in that thread, so I won't rehash what I've already written.

 

With that said.. don't confuse my support for Dean with support for all of his views. 1) I don't support the death penalty in any cases. Dean's riding the fence hardcore on that issue. 2) The dismantling of the welfare program was a HUGE mistake. Here in Texas, a single woman with a family of 2 receives $208 on welfare, plus $50 or $60 worth of food stamps. What the fuck is that? Where can you pay rent for $208, much less afford to wear clothes, drive, etc.? 3) Medical marijuana. It'll be a while before it's ever (if it ever is) a mainstream issue, but the first step to legalization (which it should be) is medical use. Dean's against both.

 

DK supporters - to facilitate your comparisons of Dean to DK, check this out: http://www.bobharris.com/kucinichdean.html. It's a great source comparing their stances on various issues (written by a DK supporter, too).

 

And, please, don't get me wrong - I don't dislike DK!

[nomadawhat]

i was goin to post that chart earlier... it was nice to find a side by side comparison of the two...

 

but i read on another forum that some dean supporters feel that it was way too biased, yet did show the differences in stances on the issues.... but you feel that its fairly accurate? of course it would be a bit biased but a few thought it was 'overdone'....

[Guest ikueism]

people the end is near:lol:

[23578]

PMB, that's the same reason I support him. I'm not sure if I like him though, it's like with Clinton, I thought he was a schemer politician type, the same with Dean, I think he's gonna say what he thinks will get him elected. He's no Paul Wellstone, the conservatives hate him, but he doesn't put the fear of God into them. I think he thinks he is just being straight up, but that triangulator statement he made. . .scary monster, run. . .anyway, he still gets my vote if I was registered as a Dem.