MISSION ACCOMPLISHED: "post war" death tolls exceed those during "major combat"

[mental invalid]

"i didn't read most of this.....but if you thought that this was ever a good idea, you probably don't have a very good perspective on world affairs.unfortunately very typical for most americans.i wish mankind learned from it's mistakes."-spot

 

 

okay well since you missed the lesson in 1st grade, read before you blow your horn....besides if the title of the thread didnt give you the angle, me brow beating you is pointless...

 

 

"In my opinion, the combat losses in Iraq, and the losses since Bush announced the "end of hostilities" are insignificant."

 

 

no, actually its not kabar....the fact of the matter is, is that bush used the opportunity for grandstanding...this was not some speach in the rose garden, solem and stoic, this was the president, holding up ship an extra day from coming home, flying on a jet plane, costing the tax players 1 million dollars, unfurling a humongous backdrop banner that said "mission accomplished"....well the fact that there are now more deaths since that grandstanding, is far from insignificant...quite the opposite, it shows a lack of formal planning, and that the comment "end of hostilities" was at best pure ignorance and at worst a bold face lie in a vain attempt to push the presidents rating to astronomical levels....

 

 

as far as poopy dog, please see seekings comment.....

[mental invalid]

and by the way, two more soilders died today.....

[!@#$%]

Re: Too Shrill

 

Originally posted by KaBar2

In my opinion, the combat losses in Iraq, and the losses since Bush announced the "end of hostilities" are insignificant.

Eventually, a democratic republic will exist in Iraq. As long as the average Iraqi citizen remains armed, I do not believe Saddam's thugs will ever regain control. And we will eventually depart, much to the relief of our soldiers.

 

i think i just decided you are a complete moron

 

sure, our soldiers signed their lives away.

i don't believe it could ever make them 'insignificant'

 

no fucking democratic republic will exist in iraq.

can't you see that isn't what the people want?!

 

they want a muslim government, or one identified with an ethnic group

 

we will depart when we are forced to, because we can no longer sustain our arrogance, complete our commitment, rebuild a government, or force a 'regime change' on a bunch of innocents who weren't ready for it

 

a stage must be set for revolution and democracy

 

an occupying force cannot come in and set that stage.

 

terrorism in iraq has only just begun.

[seeking]

Originally posted by mental invalid

the comment "end of hostilities" was at best pure ignorance and at worst a bold face lie in a vain attempt to push the presidents rating to astronomical levels....

[/b]

 

no way, i dont believe it! just because this was the strategy he utilized for every single action he's undertaken, doesnt mean this wasnt a noble cause. i mean, we love the iraqi people, we needed to free them! never mind the fact that our sanctions killed far more of them (mostly women and children) than all of sadamm's chemical weapons and udah's boric acid nipple clamps combined.

 

dubya is dope, and not at all a complete fucking monkey. im amazed he hasent jerked off on any reporters, or thrown his own shit at them.

[mental invalid]

a time line of our occupation in Germany

 

note the opening line:

 

 

The post-World War II occupation of Germany was a huge and diverse undertaking spanning almost eleven years, conducted in conjunction with three other members of the wartime alliance and involving in various degrees a number of US governmental departments and agencies.

 

 

http://www.army.mil/CMH-PG/books/wwii/Occ-GY/

[mental invalid]

time line for our occupation of Japan

 

again, note the opening line:

 

 

The occupation of Japan by the Allied Powers started in August 1945 and ended in April 1952. General MacArthur was its first Supreme Commander. The whole operation was mainly carried out by the United States.

 

 

 

http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2124.html

[mental invalid]

so you had two superpowers, not countries like iraq, and it took 11 years in germany and seven in japan....

 

 

 

face it gang, we are there for the long haul.......

[!@#$%]

welcome to the quagmire..

 

September 11th was only the beginning

[KaBar2]

We disagree---that doesn't make me a moron

 

I never said the soldiers themselves were insignificant. I served in the Marines, and it's part and parcel of Marine Corps tradition to never leave a single Marine on the battlefield, even a dead body. In the battle for Hue, in Vietnam, there were scores of Marines that died attempting to recover the dead bodies of their brother Marines. Even today, groups of Vietnam veterans make repeated trips to Vietnam in an attempt to locate the remains of long-deceased soldiers, on investigatory trips. Of course, the death of even one man or woman is a tragedy. But if we allowed the fear of casualties to prevent us to unseating a serious dictator and criminal like Saddam Hussein, the world would be filled with nothing but dictatorships.

 

The figures I saw recently on U.S. troop deployments to Iraq said we have 148,000 troops there. Considering the number of U.S. and "coalition" troops in Iraq, the numbers of soldiers killed and wounded is very small, so far. Of course, it is easy for the thugs to target our people. Our guys are driving around in clearly marked military vhicles, wearing the uniform of their country and not acting aggressively. They are attempting to secure the basic necessities of life for the Iraqi people--safety, security, water, food, medical care, reliable electric power and so on. Our people have certain advantages in the conflict, including great communications, complete control of the air, helicopter gunship air support and so forth. The people attacking them are using the advantages the situation gives to them--hiding among innocent Iraqi civilians, backshooting American soldiers, running and hiding versus standing and fighting. These are the advantages of being a guerrilla. The disadvantages come when the occupying forces identify who and where the guerrillas are, and obliterate them using superior force.

 

The remnants of Saddam's "government" (if you can call such a kleptocracy a government) will lose. The United States and it's allies will continue to hunt them down and kill them until such time as they eventually either leave Iraq, or are all killed. It will probably cost us several thousand casualties. The initial invasion of Iraq was estimated to likely cost us between 10,000 and 20,000 dead. So I figure we are way ahead on the casualty figures.

 

The U.S. troops doing the fighting are all volunteers. They are professional soldiers. They all knew, when they became soldiers, that the possibility existed that they might get killed or wounded, just as a truck driver might be injured in a highway wreck, or a high-power lineman might be electrocuted. It's a hazard associated with being a soldier, and one accepts the risk when one enlists in the armed forces. During the first Gulf War in 1990, I attempted to get back into the Marines, but they told me I was too old. At that time, I was running five miles a day after work during the week, carrying a fifty pound ALICE pack ten miles a day on weekends and working as a welder and a heavy equipment repairman all day in the Texas heat. They have their rules, as silly as they may seem to me at times.

 

It probably makes no sense to you guys, but my interest in trainhopping and living "on the bum" dovetails perfectly with my willingness to re-enter the Marine infantry. The two lifestyles are actually not that different--living outdoors, existing in a sometimes hostile, somewhat hazardous environment, being physically fit and overcoming adversity. Maybe you can see it, maybe you can't. It's not a life that everone can appreciate. Like the Marine Corps, "It ain't for everybody."

 

If anything, the U.S. is not being aggressive enough in Iraq and Afghanistan. We should double or triple the number of troops there, and seriously go after our adversaries. I anticipate we will be in Iraq at least five years, maybe more. Casualties will mount. Eventually, we will prevail.

[Spoter]

kabar man you're a funny redneck.people die regardless. you sound like there haven't been enough killed compared to other wars and that americans should be optimistic because of that?is it really a good idea to compare this war to vietnam or ww2?i honestly don't have the patience to go into big pragraphs about anything on the net or reply to mental invalid....but damn kabar everytime i read your stuff it makes me fucking puke.you get into these long arguments which is cool because it makes it seem you got a lot of knowledge....but you base your opinions on some funny material.try to see the current situation from a bigger perspective, not the american perspective.this war is supposedly about "helping'" iraq not america right?

 

that's it for me.

[KaBar2]

Try to see the big picture, man. Iraq is an important Middle Eastern country. Not only are they sitting on an ocean of oil, it is one of the few countries in that part of the world with a "mostly" secular society. The majority Shiites were oppressed by an evil and brutal Sunni tribal kleptocracy. We overturned it. Now our task is to help them create a modern, democratic, secular state that does not use murder and torture to rule, and one with which we can do business.

 

That IS helping them. They need a democratic republic, one-person/one-vote, a multi-party NON-TRIBAL, NON-RELIGIOUS political system, complete equality for men and women, and a free and fair system of law, elections and press that promotes these values.

 

Obviously, if some Nazi wanted to start producing a Hitlerite newspaper in Germany after WWII, we would have suppressed it. Same is true of Nazi TV, Nazi movies, Nazi radio and so on.

 

Iraq is OCCUPIED. We are under no obligation to permit anti-freedom, hate-filled, religious extremist messages and news media to be propagated. We have every reason to promote ideas, media, etc. that support the ideas and beliefs that we hold to be more beneficial, at least until a democratic republican government is able to take root. Plenty of Iraqis are overjoyed to see the U.S. in Iraq. If they were not, the country would be completely ungovernable, and we would be getting 350 casualties an HOUR, not 350 casualties for the entire war, invasion and occupation thus far. Do you see? I hope so.

 

To put this in perspective, we are losing far more people to violence here in the U.S., due to nothing but criminal activity, where there IS no war, than we are losing soldiers in Iraq as part of an occupation force in a post-war environment.

[poopy dog]

do you guys want a huge box a kleenex?

[!@#$%]

i do see the big picture.

and that picture is an imperialist society seeing somehting they need in a country that isn't run how we would like, and going in and taking over so we can get easier no-guilt access to their resources

 

 

they DO NOT NEED a different country, and a western one at that, deciding what ius right for their people.

 

wqe want to bring a capitalist democracy to the middle east so shit will be easier for us to buy.

 

bush never cared about those p[eople, otherwise you'd be seeing marines in liberia right now.(on a large scale, like the 1000s in iraq)

 

we only check on human rights abuses when they aren't commited by us, and when it involves a country we need something from.

 

i've read plenty of foreign newspapers and media, iraqis do not want the us there.

 

so that makes you a moron

 

we can't just decide what a country 'needs' and then liberate them by slaughtering THOUSANDS

[poopy dog]

oh and one more thing, how did all that American oil get under those sand dunes in the first place. Its about time we took it back.

[KaBar2]

LOL. Well, have fun protesting. Don't forget to bring your gas mask.

[Spoter]

sorry i have no trust in your back stabbing gov.look what happened to afghanistan?sure they got rid of taliban....how are we gonna know the current herb they put in is any better?who the fuck is he anyway?all i know is he knows a chain of restaurants in san francisco.not to mention that the taliban was helped to power by the us in the first place.usa has been know to get rid of gov. and setting a new one and then leaving them to rot.it's a constant cycle.trust me they(us gov.) know what they're doing.as long as a poor country has a dumb public and a hated tyrant it will keep that country from ever developing and being a threat to the states economically or politically.example:a few decades ago when south american people were revolting and gaining communist support the american gov. suppoerted their tyrants in an effort because they were afraid of the domino effect and communist invasion.people all over the world have lost all trust in your gov. that's out for nobody but themselves.it's not just the muslim world hating on the western way of life.another example:in the 50's an iranian socialist leader was gaining a lot of popularity when the us decided they didn't like him and funded the shah(who was at the time just n high ranking officer with no royal blood) to kill mossadegh(the socialist).bottom line;the u'.s. has definately done it's share with trying to "help" other gov. that turn in to regimes that become supprtive of america's economic benefit.i dont' know where you get your world affair sources from, but i hope it's not fucking cnn.people all over the world have lost their trust in the american gov. long time ago.usa should simply leave due to popular demand.it's going to make everything more controversial in that area anyway......"help" the irazqi people"...ha you're a joke kabar.

[!@#$%]

Originally posted by KaBar2

LOL. Well, have fun protesting. Don't forget to bring your gas mask.

 

yeah, this is the best part.

 

idiots in our government said the war in iraq was part of the war on terror(even though the intelligence was a blatant forgery)

 

those who are smart know..

this war created terrorism, extremism, anti-americanism of every variety, in many parts of the world (no longer limited to the middle east)

..people think that we are defeating terrorism by occupyin iraq??

this is the IDIOCY

 

we blew our chance in iraq over ten years ago, and now our energy prez wants to go in and run it ..

 

i didn't protest the war because i knew our steamrolling government doesn't care what the people want

 

i won't be surprised when the next terrorist attack happens in my backyard.

 

 

our arrogance, and the use of a bogus war on terror to justify it, is disgusting

 

Iraqis do not want america in iraq

fuckin wake up!

[Poop Man Bob]

Originally posted by poopy dog

crying about it and protesting in the middle of the streets blocking commerce isnt going to solve anything. Did bush listen to any of you crying fucks before durring or after this war. no.

 

You're right .. since it didn't work, we should never protest again.

 

Using your logic, we should repeal all murder laws. Hey - murder still happens, so why make a stand?

 

You don't do the name poop justice.

 

And, finally, are you not crying about our supposed "crying?" Bit of a hypocrite, aren't you.

[Poop Man Bob]

Oh, and I love how every political argument Kabar ever makes comes down to one central point - if the people own lots of guns, everything will be okay.

 

*edit - spelling error.

[Guest]

just imagine if Bush wins the next election and is then doesn't have to worry about re-election because of term limits.

[Guest BROWNer]

it's pretty amazing that people that seem to have some

intelligence can't see the worldwide apprehension of the promise of

american 'do good' through military brutality. the record clearly

speaks for itself.

it used to be communism was the logic for overthrowing

a countries power dynamics and bringing them glorious

democracy, now terrorism has supplanted communism

as the all encompassing logic for any/all military intervention.

democracy birthed by american intervention is a joke and

it always has been. regions/countries have a role and they

better know it. we all know what happens when they don't.

[KaBar2]

Poop Man Bob

 

You are correct, Poop Man Bob. My philosophy does boil down to "As long as the people are armed, liberty lives." I hold the Bill of Rights in very high regard, but without the Second Amendment to insure that every single individual in the country has the right to be armed in his own defense and the defense of the Constitution, the rest of the Bill of Rights is not worth the paper it is written on.

 

Every government is filled with people who have a strong desire to curtail individual rights and to enslave the middle class. It's like a powerful desire to kill the goose that laid the golden egg. The people at the top own 85% of the wealth, and the people at the bottom are guaranteed a free ride at our expense. It's the hard working people in the middle who are getting screwed, and bled to death with taxes of all kinds. Neither the rich nor the truly poor pay many taxes. The bulk of taxes are paid by middle income people.

 

In my opinion, the socialists who dominate the U.N., and the limosine liberals at the IMF, the World Bank, the Council on Foreign Relations and the Trilateral Commission have in mind TAXING the American middle class to fund all their hare-brained schemes. They are not happy at all that you have a right to own firearms, because it gives you the ability to resist their totalitarian asses. They would very much prefer you unarmed, docile, and ripe for the plucking.

 

The thing that has always amazed me is that liberals don't seem to have the good sense to own firearms. One doesn't have that problem with people that have ever been oppressed. Anybody who has ever had to deal with the REAL FACE of racism, the REAL FACE of fascism, the REAL FACE of ethnic cleansing OWNS A RIFLE. People seem to have a short memory, though. And history always provides another Hitler, another Stalin, another Idi Amin Dada, another Pol Pot, another Osama Bin Laden, another Castro, another Mussolini, another Franco, another Rwandan tribal hate-filled massacre.

 

All the immigrants that I know want to do three things: make a lot of money, vote, and buy guns. Good for them.

[Spoter]

i don't know of any imigrants that want to own guns.

[RiANEMeTion-]

umm..

[!@#$%]

Originally posted by >>>spot<<<

i don't know of any imigrants that want to own guns.

 

 

yeah, kabar probably has vast experience with immigrants from all over the world (as opposed to mexicans streaming into texas)

 

the immigrants that i know (and since i work at an international research facility, that's quite a few, from asia, africa, europe, canada, south america, central america, and australia and new zealand)

are not interested in firearms at all.

 

as a matter of fact, i was talking to the danish guy yesterday about the culture of violence in this country and why americans tend to be so gimmegimme, so arrogant, so devoid of respect

 

the foreigners that i know (who are all educated beyond undergraduate) are adamently opposed to the war and occupation of iraq, and george dubya is just a big fucking joke aorund here..

 

no one is interested in being anywhere near a firearm..

i guess that's the price of education, intelligence, and WISDOM

[Poop Man Bob]

Kabar - the main issue I have with your argument is that you assume, incorrectly in my view, that owning firearms will prevent the masses from experiencing tyranny. While this may have held true in the 18th and 19th century (the idea of Roman-esque militias arising to defeat evil, then returning to their farms), the military (controlled in this hypo by said tyrannical government) now has such far superior firepower that the resulting "battle" would be little more than a bloodbath. Or are you assuming that the military, made up of Joe Everyman, will rise up in revolt against the tyranny as well? If so, then you need to change your argument: as long as everyone has guns and the military is on our side, then tyranny will never prevail.

 

Your logic seems to jump from A (the people owning guns) to F (no tyranny) - there are essential steps in this process that are missing. Even in your explanation of your views, you do little more than make blanket statements ("My philosophy does boil down to "As long as the people are armed, liberty lives." I hold the Bill of Rights in very high regard, but without the Second Amendment to insure that every single individual in the country has the right to be armed in his own defense and the defense of the Constitution, the rest of the Bill of Rights is not worth the paper it is written on."), then proceed to rant about how the ruling elite want to destroy America's middle class. This leads to how ...

 

Furthermore, I'm interested in exactly how owning guns will ensure the Constitution stands strong and tyranny is averted. Will the people mount a popular uprising, armed with rifles and handguns, march on Washington, and demand the removal of whatever tyrannical entity you find threatening? Do you actually think you'd get that far?

 

Much like Clarence Thomas, I fear that much of your rhetoric would better serve in the 18th to early 19th century.

 

 

 

 

Oh, and please, if you respond to me, respond to the questions and points I've addressed. Don't go on about how the middle class is oppressed, etc., unless that point is somehow relevant to what I've asked.

 

*edit - more spelling issues.

[mental invalid]

the moral of the story, dont fuck with a kid in law school......

[Smart]

Originally posted by !@#$%

Iraqis do not want america in iraq

fuckin wake up!

 

look, I hate to point this out because I like you a lot but... This statement SMACKS of the exact same 'arrogance' you are using to attack KaBar... How the fuck do you know what they want? Have you been there? Neither has he, so neither of you should be speaking for the Iraqi people.

 

The reason !@#$%'s friends aren't pointing that out to her is because they agree, though this probably isn't entirely concious on their part. KaBar probably interacts with hundreds of foreign nationals, imigrants and racially diverse Americans everyday but he spends most of his time arguing/discussing things around here, so I assume he simply doesn't have time to interact with 'them', and instead he talks about it with 'us'...

 

see how I made some sweeping assumptions about both of you that may or may not be pretty on target? Did you both tell yourselfs at one point that I didn't know what I was talking about? That's the EXACT same kind of arrogance that pisses off the foreigners...

 

It's something we are all guilty of but it's a fucking dead horse around here and an invalid argument to boot...

[!@#$%]

well, since you brought it up...

 

 

i had the oppurtunity to travel abroad during the war

it gave me an amazing perspective of the world's vierw of the war

and due to my access to BBC and a host of foreign newspapers (and more recdently, foreign newspapoers in Indonesia) I have read a tremendous amount of news coverage as reported by anti-war countries

(so, of course, they have their own biases, and i understand the turth lies somehwhere in between)

 

but let's face it.

America is the Great Satan

in a muslim country in t6he middle east, there isn't really another way about it.

currently thousands of iraqis are imprisoned by america and who knows when or if they'lll face trial.

what about the thousands we killed?

(and continue to kill)

sure, i am generalizing..and yes, it is an arrogant assumption.

and surely there are iraqis who are happy with the situation, or at leats the progress so far.

but american bombs are killing thousands.

 

i'll cut and paste some stuff, and links...

 

Even the name “Gulf War” is a lie. The so-called Gulf “War” of 1991 was in fact a one-sided American/British state terror campaign, directed primarily against the entire Iraqi civilian population and infrastructure. 17.7 million pounds of bombs were dropped on the people of Iraq in the most concentrated aerial bombardment in the history of the world. In the 110,000 sorties of the six-week onslaught the cowardly American and British pilots (and to a lesser extent French and Saudi pilots) mass-murdered at least 200,000 people, using depleted uranium missiles, napalm, cluster-bombs, fuel-air bombs, cruise missiles and other so-called “smart bombs”.

 

The slaughter of civilian people in the Amariyah bomb shelter was a prime example of this American/British state terrorism. The large shelter was in a residential neighborhood on the west side of Baghdad. Because of the bombing the neighborhood had no electricity or water. People were living in the shelter, hoping to escape from the bombs. Most of them were women, children, elderly, and invalids from a new housing development.

 

On Feb. 14th, 1991, at about 4:30 am while everybody was sleeping, an American Tomahawk penetrator missile blasted through the steel-reinforced concrete ceiling of the shelter, creating a huge hole about 6 feet wide. Minutes later a second bomb came through the hole, exploded, and burned everyone inside to death. With this one strike American/British war heroes murdered over 400 helpless people.

 

A Human Rights Watch report says that of the estimated 24 to 30 million bomblets dropped during the Desert Storm terror campaign, the 1.2 to 1.5 million (at least) that did not immediately explode led to the bloody deaths of 1,220 Kuwaiti and 400 Iraqi people — mostly children — and over 2,500 maimed. And that was in just the first two years after the end of the “war”.

 

With the passage of time cluster bombs become more unstable, making deadly accidental explosions increasingly likely. American cluster bombs will butcher Iraqi children and civilian people for many years to come, as they have done to the people of Southeast Asia since the mid-1960s

 

 

In December 1998, in order to intensify the suffering of the Iraqi people, the United States and Britain began a campaign of continual low-level bombing of Iraq’s infrastructure, including strafing raids against Iraqi agricultural developments. Since that time the cowardly American/British pilots have flown over 49,000 sorties, murdering over 400 more civilian people, including many children, and injuring another 1000+ people.

 

 

 

and the link

http://free.freespeech.org/americanstatete...hTerrorism.html

[!@#$%]

CNN's David Turnley toured Baghdad on April 12-14, 2003 and found the city a chaotic place. While U.S. military convoys were met with cheers from some Iraqis, many people told Turnley they felt lost. While they are happy to be liberated, they said they don't want U.S. troops to be occupiers. Food and water are scarce, most homes are without electricity and security remains elusive even as looting begins to taper off.

 

 

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/inte...imes/index.html

 

let's be realistic

occupation sucks

everything is still in disarray

and the thread we are in is about soldiers dying daily.