bodice_ripper Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 You know what's more important than gay marriage? seperation of church and state Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Clean Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 Bush and the pope: fuckin up freedom of choice in 2003. i open up the paper yesterday "BUSH TO BAN GAY MARRIAGES" i open the paper today "VATICAN TO BAN GAY MARRIAGES" what is this world coming to? gay marriage is not the end of soceity, the loss of freedom of choice is. Seperation of church and state cant slip, otherwise we're going to start a new crusade, a new spanish conquest, look at history for answers to today's questions. oh, and fuck bush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poop Man Bob Posted August 2, 2003 Share Posted August 2, 2003 In the words of Steve Gilliard: If you've been paying attention, the President has found a pressing need to not only ban gay marriage, but civil unions. In an unrelated, but linked story, New York City has fully funded the Harvey Milk High School, which had been run by the Hetrick-Martin Institute. Now, this is something I know a little about, since I wrote about it nearly 20 years ago, when the program first started. In all the hysteria about a "gay" high school . And in a wave of open homophobia, I'd like to shed a little light on the program. The Harvey Milk High School, an expansion of a 1984 city program consisting of two small classrooms for gay students, will enroll about 100 students and will open in the fall. "I think everybody feels that it's a good idea because some of the kids who are gays and lesbians have been constantly harassed and beaten in other schools," Mayor Michael Bloomberg said at a briefing today. "It lets them get an education without having to worry. It solves a discipline problem. And from a pedagogical point of view, this administration — and previous administrations — have thought it was a good idea and we'll continue with that." The program was supported , in large measure, by NYU. The two founders, Hetrick and Martin, had taught there and got space from the university for their program, because there was a desperate need for it. Hetrick-Martin does outreach with gay youth and from what I was told, the kids they saw were at the end of their ropes, literally. They were saving kids from suicide, homelessness and sexual assault in their high schools. It wasn't for gay kids, but troubled kids who were gay and headed for the streets or an early grave. The program is small, 100 kids, out of a high school population of 400,000. If it was merely a school for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered kids, they would have to have in every borough, serving anywhere from 20-40,000 kids at a minimum. Harvey Milk is not for "gay" kids, but troubled kids. Kids who face physical violence in school. Some dismiss it as bullying, but we're talking things as serious as assault with a deadly weapon to rape. Which gay and bisexual kids are far, far less likely to report. Administrators are often indifferent to these attacks. Harvey Milk exists so that these kids can get their consitutionally mandated educations safely. Most gay kids attend New York's Public Schools with little problem. But for those facing eviction by homophobic parents, violence and sexual assault, there needs to be a place where they can continue to get their educations and become useful members of society. What amazes me is the wholesale assault on gay rights is deemed to be a protection of marriage. The President and his allies want to drag us back to the days of Plessy V. Fergusson without even thinking about it. You don't have to like gay marriage or civil union, but then rights aren't supposed to be placed up for a vote. Make no mistake, like all the caterwalling about the "gay" high school, much of this talk about making gay marriage illegal won't change reality. But what it will do is create an America with two classes, those who can marry and those who can't. Those who have their legal rights protected under the law and those who don't. Amending the constitution is dangerous enough, doing so to forever deny a class of people basic rights is even more dangerous and a denial of reality. You can't prevent gay families. You can only make their lives harder. What societal interest is there in making the lives of gays harder? To forever complicate adoptions, estates, rental agreements and medical care? What point is there in doing that because you think the rights of marriage should be reserved for heterosexuals? The constitution is not a magic wand, designed to make things we disagree with disappear. If it was, I wouldn't be living in the United States. Nor would most of the Catholic, Jewish, Hispanic and Asian immigrants or their descendents. As Americans, gays should have the right to formal legal bonds, whatever you call them. Not because we like or approve of their lifestyles, but because they are American citizens. Anyone who wants to enshrine this bigotry into law, or defend it with law, is fundamentally un-American. Loving v Virginia, which ended misegenation laws in the US, was, at first, unpopular. Now, it's irrelevant. One day, we'll realize that disenfranching gays from the protections of civil law and stable families is silly. It's not about personal likes, but basic rights under the law and if gays will form families, what possible sense does it make force these families to live as second class citizens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poop Man Bob Posted August 2, 2003 Share Posted August 2, 2003 Originally posted by old*824 my number one complaint with "gay" culture is the sexual irresponsability....ie...Aids epidemic. Yeah .... because straight people aren't sexually irresponsible either. They haven't had anything to do with the spread of the AIDS virus. Nothing at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted August 2, 2003 Author Share Posted August 2, 2003 Exactly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted August 2, 2003 Author Share Posted August 2, 2003 Blame... you're right, we have to agree to disagree. I think what all this really boils down to is the government getting involved in it's peoples personal lives. That is wrong. What people do, especially in the privacy of their own home is none of the governments business. I don't care if a guy is buck-naked with a fourteen inch dildo up his ass watching Lifetime movies while licking his dog's ass. That's his business. He's not hurting anyone but himself... and the dog. But it's his dog so fuck off. (Not directed at you Blame... just venting) I've heard that Bush plans on running again and has already spent a crap-load of money campaigning for it. Even though no one else has stepped up to bat against him. To reply to the person who said that all this whole subject has done is teach the American people one thing... VOTE... I have news for you, it's done quite the opposite. If you remember when this cat was thrown into office it was by mere numbers. And even those numbers had to be counted and recounted. And some were 'lost' and some didn't count. Bull... shit. I'm starting to think that a vote for the green party is smart, if even to keep Bush from being in office. I have a feeling that he won't be re-elected. There are so many people for the war and who think Bush is doing a great job, but there a just as many if not more who want him gone... even some republicans. If you can't tell, I'm completely against any form of religion. (Which is odd since my wife is a Jehovah's Witness.) And to have a president who is using his reigious views to govern our states is insane to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted August 3, 2003 Author Share Posted August 3, 2003 I'm definitely not here to preach. Please believe. I mainly started this thread as a discussion. For points of view and thoughts on the subject. And that's what I got. Mission accomplished. I too have many Gay friends. Pretty much all my close friends are Gay. I have no idea why, though I assume that it's because of what I do for a living. Retail Design and Visual Merchandising. It seems to attract more Gay men than Straight. Not too many straight men have an eye for Visual presentation, I guess. Anyway, When the story dropped about Bush's decision it sparked a huge debate at work. Some were against it, and some were for it. Those who were against it just wanted to be able to have thier life-partner recognized as such. And be able to have them on their insurance and so on. They saw no need to add an age old ceremony to bind thier feeling to one another. The others wanted what they felt was justice. To be recognized as equals. They're able to vote, pay taxes and such but they can't live openly and get married to the person they love. They something wrong with that. Then you bring the religious ratio in... and here's where I go bonkers for a second... In all the shit I've read online, seen on the tele and read in the paper... not one person has brought up the fact that Bush is using his religious views to govern this country. Not one. Last night on a talk show a representative for the Republican Party spoke about how the bible says what is and isn't a marriage, what constitutes a marriage. And how Gay marriages will ruin that forever. It will give marriages a bad name. I think she actually said it would destroy the idea of getting married. One of the panelists brought up the ten commandments and spouted off a few things in rebutal. And something about divorce being in the bible as something not to do. Yet it's tolorated and accepted. I just don't feel that Republicans have a good arguement. Especially when they bring in religion. Not everyone is religious in this country. Not everyone who is religious in the country is of the same religion. (Which is a whole different subject you don't want me to get started on) So why would we, as a people want a government that uses religious Christian views in it's politics? And then there's the writers on here who say they're against homosexuals and their lifestyle because it's against God and the bible. Fuckin' idiots... if you believe in the writings of the bible so much why are you a writer? Hypocrits... Defstar... I hear you. When I said that about the privacy issue, I meant it mostly about who you're lying in bed with. And what you do whlie your there. If a man is raping and torturing five year old girls in the privacy of his own home... it's definitely the business of the authorities. But I hope you were understanding what I was trying to say anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serum Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 this issue seems pretty simple to me. freedom = being able to do what you want without stepping on anyone elses freedom. the biggest argument against same sex marriages is that they would be reaping the benefits of tax breaks, insurance etc. isn`t that what a republican is anyways?? in this lifetime its hard enough to find good friends let alone someone that you are willing to spend your whole life with. this would help in the overpopulation problem and perhaps even with adoption. making gay sex legal, and same sex marriages legal is not going to make people gay if that was so who in the hell would want to be gay at a time like this? homosexuality has been with us forever and will continue to be. warring states have always been popular with a little man on man love. people don`t even realise that people that they consider cool like buddhist monks or samurai were almost 100% gay. having love for a women was considered weak, but love between men was essential. even today in the japanese language there are 2 recognised symbols for love. one for the love between a father and his children and another between friends/brothers. there is no symbol for love between a man and a woman. consider that next time you get a tattoo in a chinese or japanese symbol.the western definition of love was forced down the japanese throats so to speak and they now have the word `rabu`. even yakuza are primarily bi sexual. i have never had a desire to vote until now. before it was choosing between the measels and the mumps but now its like aids and sars. sars has the possibility of a cure. lets get this moron out of office before he gets everyone hating us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest meone Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 i agree with everyone in the fact that people should be allowed love who ever they want be it gay or straight but my personal opinion is that it is wrong and we shouldn't condone homosexuality either. I agree with serum that it would help with over population but at the same time that is the whole arguement agaisnt homosexuality. Sex is "supposed to create offspring". A man and a man obviously can't create a child and neither can a woman and a woman. I guess my opinion is formulated from 12 years of catholic schools. I'm not going to say that its wrong though as thats not my call, i'm a sinner you're a sinner everyones a sinner so why throw stones at glass houses? In the end "God will sort it out for himself". now I'm getting off my soap box Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daze One Million Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 see i dont like gay people....i mean im sure they're normal people and all but personally i think gay people have some kind of mental problem or something, but thats not the issue, i havent read this thread so sorry if this was allready said but i do not believe gay couples should be allowed marriage for the simple fact that marriage is a religous thing, and being gay is a sin, so that right there should be an automatic no, people forget that marriage is religous thing, they think that marriage represents just loving each other, when it really is supposed to be something like making a commitment to be one under god and create children (hence its a sin to have sex before marriage. i also agree with the guy above me bout sex is supposed to be for procreation...not just to get a nut off... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted August 5, 2003 Author Share Posted August 5, 2003 Originally posted by Daze One Million sex is supposed to be for procreation...not just to get a nut off... So you've never masturbated? You've never had oral sex? A handjob? Or intercourse without impregnating your girl? Never? And Meone... You contradicted yourself about two or three times. Are you for same sex marriages or aren't you? You can't be for homosexuality but at the same not for it. And everyone, QUIT USING RELIGION AS A REFERENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you were truly religious you wouldn't be a writer. You can't choose what parts of a religion you're going to follow and what parts you're not. Being a writer means you've broken and probably continue to break the law. And I know Jesus and his Pops ain't down with that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daze One Million Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 oh nah joker i think you missed what i was tryin to say, im not religous at all, im an athius actually, im just saying in all actuality thats what marriage is supposed to represent, and why i feel gay couples should not be allowed marriage, let me try and explain it better, christmas for instance is supposed to be celebrated by those who believe in god and all that, but millions just celebrate it to celebrate it, thats all fine and dandy but they are celebrating it for the wrong reasons, getting married for something other than making children is also a wrong reason...not to say that people dont do this, of course people do, but celebrating xmas and getting married are 2 different things, i really feel that it should be up to the preist as to whether or not he feels he should wed the two because just like driving, to me marriage is a privelidge not a right...i hope that was a little better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest meone Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Confusion Clarification First,I was agreeing with serum in that yes it would solve overpopultation for obvious reasons. Next, I see it as wrong for religous reasons and I know that I'm a sinner just as they are but for different reasons. I write and I know its wrong.(Not to get into a religous debate with you but millions of people choose everyday what rules they want to break and what ones they want to keep. Thats how the protestant sects of christianity came about.And I never said I was perfect. I've lied, cheated, stolen,fought,etc...like everyone else.) But like I said. I'm not going to throw stones. I am against homosexuality, but it doesn't stop me from having compassion or friendships with them. I will never say that they shouldn't have the same rights as straights. Who am I to decide that and I don't believe that banning Homosexuals from marriage will curb them from being homosexual. They will always be here and they are not going anywhere. Not that I want them to either. As character goes theycan be assholes or super cool just like us. They are people just like everyone else. Hope that clears up my view. P.S. Now that I'm thinking about it speeding would get you into shit with Jesus and his Pops too. I'm screwed then cause my liscense has been suspended twice....damn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
When Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Originally posted by Daze One Million not religous at all, im an athius actually getting married for something other than making children is also a wrong reason... im assuming you mean Atheist anyway... getting married and not having children is not a bad thing i know many married couples that did not have children does this make their marriage any less special or worthy? i think not i dont see why not having children while married is wrong? does the bible say this or something? i cant remember. anyway ill get to my point... i see nothing wrong with people getting married and not having children weather they are gay or straight and the reason i support gay people so much is because they offer us population control they are truly the unsung heroes of the world Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neskoner Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 No one has to have childern,and if they dont,doesnt mean they still dont have sex... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daze One Million Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Originally posted by When im assuming you mean Atheist anyway... getting married and not having children is not a bad thing i know many married couples that did not have children does this make their marriage any less special or worthy? i think not i dont see why not having children while married is wrong? does the bible say this or something? i cant remember. anyway ill get to my point... i see nothing wrong with people getting married and not having children weather they are gay or straight and the reason i support gay people so much is because they offer us population control they are truly the unsung heroes of the world oops my bad i spelt it wrong, dont matter though cuz you assumed right, any way i dont think not having kids is a problem, i have no problem with it personally, im just saying that gays should not have a right to get married because being gay is against religion, marriage is a part of religion, thats all im saying, i can care less, its not me getting married, but how is this population control...people are still gonna have sex married or not, and gays arent going to procreate reguardless of them being married Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smart Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Re: Re: Re: Joker Originally posted by mapo returns what hes saying is that sexual feelings are embedded into human instinct for the sake of reproduction. but what basically happens (and heres where psychology comes in) is that the gratification from sex is so strong that people just like the feeling it brings and arent necessarily doing it for its intended purpose. thats why we have forms of birth control. and we have oral/anal sex and masturbation..we want the stimulus. I know what he's saying you kook... and here's where you're wrong... SCIENCE tells us that Dolphins have sex 'for fun' as well as humans... this tells us that your PERSONAL belief that sex is one purposed is scientifically corrupt... The best that ANYONE can say is that sex feels good. There is probably some relationship between that and the continued evolution of the species. To say that any form of sex that does not result in the creation of a fertalized embyo is "wrong" is SO blatantly close minded and idiotic that it bears no response. Why should YOUR opinion of what's 'the wrong way to have sex' affect another person's ability to make and maintain a happy life? and J_, you can't leave religion out of this argument because, even though the argument crosses lines all over the place, the most obvious line of demarcation is the conservative religious stance. *oh and Mapo, that food analogy is weightless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smart Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Originally posted by Daze One Million let me try and explain it better, christmas for instance is supposed to be celebrated by those who believe in god and all that, but millions just celebrate it to celebrate it, thats all fine and dandy but they are celebrating it for the wrong reasons right, here's where you're dumb... Christmas, as a holiday on Dec. 25th is a creation of the Xian Church to combat the "heathen" practice of celebrating the winter solstice. The christmas tree itself is actually a "heathen" icon... the fact is, over about 500 years, the dominance of the Xian Church and people's natural willingness to go underground and assimilate 'the new way' on the surface has melded celtic mysticism with MANY christian beliefs and observances... FYI, Historians, both biblical and laic have determined Christ was most probably born sometime in early April... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daze One Million Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 chill man i was only usin it as an example, either way people celebrate it with out knowing what it means....as you can see so have i, i dont like doing things that i dont know the meaning behind, even if i dont follow it i still wanna know what its supposed to represent, so im kinda glad you shed that light on me, but it all comes down to marriage is a religous thing, being gay is wrong in gods eyes...that should end the argument right there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smart Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Originally posted by Daze One Million being gay is wrong in gods eyes...that should end the argument right there but just a second ago you were an 'athius'... No, it's NOT a religious thing, as Joker tried to say but... again, as I said... it seems impossible to seperate... here... let me seperate it for you... Gay peolpe are NOT looking for a religious ceremony to proclaim their devotion to each other. Homosexual marriage is a LEGAL issue enabling, among other things, gay people to get health benefits and tax breaks afforded to heterosexually married couples. Why are you so concerned about 'the meaning' behind why people you don't know are having sex, and so adamant about denying them rights before you have any understanding? MIND YOUR OWN FUCKING BUSINESS! How does it hurt (or even affect) YOU if the 2 gay guys/gals down the street get married? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daze One Million Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 i dont care if gays get married, to me personally it doesnt matter, like i said why should i care, im not the one getting married, i understand this, but a church is going to marry the two....the church believes in god...i dont have to, the church does it for me, so thats why they should not be allowed to get married, for them to marry a gay couple is going against what they believe in, im only looking out for them, if the gays want tax breaks and things like that then too bad, thats thier fault for being gay, the churches shouldnt have to make up for it, and for you to say mind my business...its not your business either.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 455 Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Originally posted by Joker First, if you have nothing intelligent to say, please refrain from saying anything at all in a response. I'm sure most of you have seen or heard about President Bush and his next opposition... banning gay marriages. In his first response to the media he even quoted lines from the bible as to why he feels that same sex marriages is wrong. Now... my two cents... Why does he care? Why is the President of the U.S. concerning himself with the personal lives of people? It's none of his business who a man or a woman sleeps with. Or is married to. And quoting the bible? Since when is the President allowed to force his personal religious views on the country to get what he wants? Why is the Catholic Church getting involved in his decision? What do they have to do with our laws? I always thought there was suppose to be a seperation of Church and State. Maybe that applies to something else within politics, I don't really know since I'm not that politically minded. Though I do know that the bible says you should not involve yourself in the wars of men. Which Bush certainly has. So why does he see fit to ignore one quote from the bible but not the other? Personally, who cares who sleeps with who. If you can truly find someone to love, be it a man or a woman... I say go for it. Finding someone to love and who will love you in return is almost impossible. (You kids will giggle and laugh, but when you get older, you'll see where I'm coming from with this) There shouldn't be laws telling people who they can love... that's rediculous. I'm not really for it,because I think it is wrong......but the fact you brought up the point about Bush attemping to make it illegal is completely asinine.....I think George Jr. should refain on his "coke" problem before he tries to invade the personal lives of others.....maybe he should worry about Jenna and Barbara before this......this might not make any sense but whatever.....I tried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smart Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Originally posted by Daze One Million see i dont like gay people....i mean im sure they're normal people and all but personally i think gay people have some kind of mental problem or something, ... i do not believe gay couples should be allowed marriage for the simple fact that marriage is a religous thing, and being gay is a sin/B] Originally posted by Daze One Million im not religous at all, im an athius actually, im just saying in all actuality thats what marriage is supposed to represent... because just like driving, to me marriage is a privelidge not a right...i hope that was a little better Originally posted by Daze One Million im just saying that gays should not have a right to get married because being gay is against religion, marriage is a part of religion, thats all im saying Originally posted by Daze One Million i dont like doing things that i dont know the meaning behind, even if i dont follow it i still wanna know what its supposed to represent, so im kinda glad you shed that light on me, but it all comes down to marriage is a religous thing, being gay is wrong in gods eyes...that should end the argument right there Originally posted by Daze One Million i dont care if gays get married, to me personally it doesnt matter, like i said why should i care, im not the one getting married, i understand this, but a church is going to marry the two....the church believes in god...i dont have to, the church does it for me, so thats why they should not be allowed to get married, for them to marry a gay couple is going against what they believe in, im only looking out for them, if the gays want tax breaks and things like that then too bad, thats thier fault for being gay, the churches shouldnt have to make up for it, and for you to say mind my business...its not your business either.... Yep, you're right it's not my business SO I DON'T PRESUME TO TELL THEM WHAT THEY SHOULD OR SHOULD NOT DO. You're just a bigot, no two ways about it. You're close minded and ignorant to the general current of life around you. You should keep your mouth shut but I'm not gonna pass a law aginst you stating your mind. It's not my fault that you're stupid... OH, and WHY are you stupid... ASIDE from your views on this particular subject... your claim of being an 'Athius' and then using the christian doctrine to crutch up your flaccid argument is WEAK. You're an 'Athius' that's 'only looking out for the christians'? You're a solid kook. You fail at life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serum Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 daze you are real quick. fyi you can get married without going to a church, you go to city office with a few friends and sign a certificate. again as smart previously stated reason for marriage is for tax breaks, insurance benefits etc. the whole point of this discussion is that people should mind their own business and let gays live their lives how they please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest willy.wonka Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 think of gay men touching you... now think of some guy sliding his penis into your butthole slowly. im sorry..i couldnt resist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daze One Million Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 smart your whole argument is just trying to make me look stupid and/or comming at me with personal attacks, i hope thats not how you act in real life towards people who dont agree with you, talkin about me failing in life and being close minded, im not the one jumpin on people who think it should be ok, you need to get some respect for other peoples opinions before you start shooting off yours, i dont think gays should be married because its against gods eyes.....i dont have to believe in god for me to say this because im not the one marrying them, as long as the one marrying them beleives in god, they shouldnt have to marry them....what dont you understand? smart your too full of your self thinking that everything you say is right, your fucking sn is "smart" for crying out loud, what you need to do is step back listen to someones thoughts and then respond to them in a mature matter...seeing as this is a mature subject, anyway enough of this bullshit allready, gays should not be allowed marriage through a church, for the simple fact that the church doesnt condone it, period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest willy.wonka Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 just be glad he read it all...:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daze One Million Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Originally posted by willy.wonka just be glad he read it all...:) :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Quickwood Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 :scowl: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest willy.wonka Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 how is the church gonna say no on gay marriage, but have some openly gay guy placed as bishop* in the catholic church?-something i heard. *im not sure what rank this fool is, but some openly gay guy is going to be appointed to some rank in the church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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