wyze Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 test pattern, you rock my world point one- i hate violence, that being said... point two- you guys need to look into the less seen stuff, the secrets, such as the pancor jackhammer (combat shotgun operated by its own recoil, but the project was abandoned). my favorite gun was experimental, and it never got off the ground either, but check it out. if any of you have seen the Halo 2 SMG, its remarkably simalar.... http://www.hkpro.com/g11.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackson Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 I want one, give me a helicopter with a Minigun mounted on it... mmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villain Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 Rothstein: The m16 is accurate yes, but I wouldn't call it the MOST accurate. And it certainly is not even close to the most reliable. The Ak is by far more reliable. I beleive the U.S. military is looking towards bullpup designs for the Objective Force. I don't know why people like the Glocks so much here, they have a really bad rap for misfiring and exploding. I'm sure plastic parts don't help. I do however like the idea of the ported glock for less recoil and would like to see this concept applied to sniper rifles (or maybe not since this would lessen the power) or even automatic weapons to lessen the effects of the recoil pulling the barrel up and to the right or left after the first shot. I think it could do good things for semi and fully automatic weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rip Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 Originally posted by villain Rothstein: The m16 is accurate yes, but I wouldn't call it the MOST accurate. And it certainly is not even close to the most reliable. The Ak is by far more reliable. I beleive the U.S. military is looking towards bullpup designs for the Objective Force. I don't know why people like the Glocks so much here, they have a really bad rap for misfiring and exploding. I'm sure plastic parts don't help. I do however like the idea of the ported glock for less recoil and would like to see this concept applied to sniper rifles (or maybe not since this would lessen the power) or even automatic weapons to lessen the effects of the recoil pulling the barrel up and to the right or left after the first shot. I think it could do good things for semi and fully automatic weapons. finally someone who is sane. i hate the m16a2 even though we are chancing to a smaller chopped version with a colapsable stock(not spelt right). the ak is much better. the glock sucks. the standerd side arm for the AF is the m9. it sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villain Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 the m4 is smaller but also has less power due to the shorter barrel which is actually a disadvantage. The ak has less moving parts, less fuss. I bet troops in Iraq right now are having to clean their weapons several times a day whereas an Iraqi aggressor could jump straight out of the sand with an ak and just start spraying.... I've never shot an m9 but I've heard they are pretty decent. Certainly better than alot of glocks. What do you think about the porting automatic weapons idea? that would make automatic fire so much more accurate. i should fucking patent that. shit. if somebody makes that and doesn't pay me i'm going to fucking kill them with the same weapon! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr.yuck Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 yeah i must say that article on the G11 was very very interesting. Before now i have never heard of caseless rounds. I still dont fully understand exactly how they work though. But the hundred round top loading clip is very cool. At any rate i think i am going to go do some research of my own. cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaBar2 Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 A Nation of Riflemen I think that a lot of the interest in firearms among young people and especially young men and teenaged boys, comes from Hollywood's irresponsible and Machaivellian policy of making firearms in movies appear to be much more powerful and dangerous than they actually are in real life. The flip side of this coin is that they do not portray the genuine real potential of the American people in an accurate light. The truth is that each and every American man and every foreign-born man who is living in the United States and who has made "declaration to become" a U.S. citizen, and who is between the ages of 17 and 45, is a member of the "unorganized militia" by law. U.S. Code Title 10, section 311. The interpretation of the Second Amendment, and subsequent case law says that citizens of the U.S. have a right to own firearms "suitable for service in the militia." This means rifles, pistols and shotguns similar to those found in service with the regular U.S. armed forces. Most of the weapons pictured in this thread, especially the "black rifles" like AR-15, M-16, M-1A, M-1 Garand, M-1 carbine, any .223 Remington or .308 Winchester caliber rifle, any AK-type clone, such as the Norinco Legend AK-S, AKM, and so forth, SKS, Ruger Mini-14, Ruger Mini-Thirty and any legal-length shotgun in 12 gauge, probably is covered by these rulings. Virtually any standard-caliber pistol would be useful, such as a 9mm Luger, 9mm Parabellum, or 9x19mm (these are actually all the same caliber, just different ways of saying it.) Any .45 ACP pistol would be useful, as well as any .38 Special or .357 Magnum. Odd calibers would be less useful, because it would be difficult to get ammunition for them in a war or national emergency. The militia organizations around the U.S. have adopted a set of ideas. One, first and foremost, is that they intend to defend the Constitution, and Constitutional Rights, regardless of who is in power. They are mostly either Republican or Libertarian, but they are very angry about the so-called Patriot Act, because it errodes Constitutional liberties and empowers Federal intelligence agencies to spy on U.S. citizens. The left, and the Democratic Party in particular, keeps pushing the idea that the militias are somehow some big threat to the rest of the country. This is completely false. The reason the Democrats hate the militia movement is because the militia members are willing to fight to defend the Constitution, and they are diligently working away preparing for any contingency. Most militia members that I have met have stockpiles of rifles, ammunition and military equipment hidden, in order that they might resist if the government becomes totalitarian, or if the U.S. experiences some catastrophe or national emergency. They are, in general, extremely law-abiding people, and would not lightly consider committing any illegal or aggressive act. It would require some gross violation of law, morals and the Constitution to move them to action. Bill Clinton and Janet Reno almost managed this with the series of governmental attacks upon citizens known as "Ruby Ridge" and the "Waco Massacre." There is a widespread belief among the militia members I know that the Oklahoma City Bombing was a government-influenced action designed to ruin the reputation of the militia movement. There are many sites on the net dedicated to this mystery, similar to the sites dedicated to the Kennedy Assassination. The main principles are these: 1.) "Every volunteer a rifleman." No cooks, bakers, medics, radiomen, etc. Riflemen first, secondary MOS second. (MOS= "military occupational specialty") This is an idea adopted from the U.S. Marine Corps. 2.) "Every volunteer a Fire Team Leader." The militia does not view itself just as a body of troops, but as an organization of LEADERS. In an emergency, they expect that thousands of fence-sitters will join them. To this end, they encourage their members to stockpile enough rifles, ammunition, uniforms and military equipment to supply at least four men (the size of a Marine fire team.) This will allow the militia to quickly expand by a factor of 400%. 3.) "Obtain rifles that shoot one of 'The Militia Three.' " The Militia Three are three types of cartridges that every militia volunteer and militia unit agrees to stockpile. This would permit one militia unit to support another unit logistically. The three cartridges are 5.56mm (.223 Rem), 7.62mm NATO (.308 Win) and 7.62x39mm (AK and SKS ammunition.) They don't care what rifle you purchase, as long as it is in one of these three calibers. Examples would be the AR-15, M-16, Mini-14, Daewoo, M-1A, FN/FAL, HK 91, CETME, AK, AKM, AKS, NHM-91, MAK-90, SAR-1, SKS, SKS Paratrooper, SKS Sporter. Along with these rifles, they ask people to obtain all the equipment that goes along with the rifle, such as at least seven thirty-round or twenty-round magazines, magazine pouches, pistol belt and combat suspenders, or combat load-bearing vest, combat cargo (butt pack), canteens and canteen pouches, sidearm and holster, appropriate radios, camouflage uniforms, combat boots and so forth. For the average militia member, this is a very large economic committment. Those that make a average wage cannot easily afford these types of expenses. Young members and young volunteers often can barely afford even a rifle, and so are sometimes provided a rifle and a full set of equipment to use during training by the organization. The unit I am familiar with had what amounted to a supply depot at a business owned by one of the members, as well as several power boats, an air boat, trucks, heavy equipment and so on "on loan" when needed from a construction company. They trained on a 385 acre farm abutting the Brazos River in Texas. Another fallacy is the idea that the militia movement is a white racist movement. Again, totally false. Meetings that I attended in Houston back in the early '90s included a fair number of black men. The difficulty arose when some of these black guys wanted to form "all black" militia units. This idea was rejected, under the principle that the militia movement does not discriminate in any way, and that since all-white units are not permitted, neither are all-black, or all-Latino, or all-anything-else units, at least, not in Texas Constitutional Militia. One of the most inspirational speakers that I heard during this time was a black college professor addressing a mostly-white, male audience on the subject of the Constitution. He got a standing ovation. For those of you interested in this, there are numerous "militia sites" on the web. They follow a philosophy known as "leaderless resistance," and encourage people to prepare as best they can individually, but in accordance with the guidelines more-or-less explained here. Owning firearms is not simply for one's own amusement or empowerment. We live in a nation of riflemen, and we keep and bear those arms in our own defense, and in defense of the Nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOUM Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 Bang.. http://www.comicsetc.com/images/th2_1532221.jpg'> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iloveboxcars Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 i might have said this already, but as soon as i can start buying random shit i dont need because im rich... im going to buy alot of revolvers. nothing else. just revolvers. revolvers make me feel like a cowboy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaBar2 Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 Look into cowboy action shooting organizations, like SASS. www.sassnet.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villain Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 Kabar comes to drop the knowledge on us! What's up.... I'm real big on militias too and coming from Michigan I've had alot of experience with them. Some of them are white racist bastards but then again some aren't. I was always more interested in forming my own militant affiliations. Regardless, the fundamentals of having a militia is very important for the defense of freedom, which is becoming ever more important every day as nations and governments continue to grow more powerful so must we. That Texas Constitutional Militia is a good idea. They should have something like that in Michigan. An organization of LEADERS. I like that, alot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaBar2 Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 Villain They do, bro. It's called the Michigan Militia. It has five or six different groups within it. Take everything you read and see with a grain of salt. No organization is perfect, they all have defects. But a condition of imperfection does not mean it is worthless. Here's a cool quote, from the O.G.'s: "A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient Arms & Ammunition to maintain a Status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." Can't say it any plainer than the Founding Father. George is THE MAN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Rothstein Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Originally posted by villain Rothstein: The m16 is accurate yes, but I wouldn't call it the MOST accurate. And it certainly is not even close to the most reliable. The Ak is by far more reliable. I beleive the U.S. military is looking towards bullpup designs for the Objective Force. I don't know why people like the Glocks so much here, they have a really bad rap for misfiring and exploding. I'm sure plastic parts don't help. I do however like the idea of the ported glock for less recoil and would like to see this concept applied to sniper rifles (or maybe not since this would lessen the power) or even automatic weapons to lessen the effects of the recoil pulling the barrel up and to the right or left after the first shot. I think it could do good things for semi and fully automatic weapons. I pretty much agree with you. I own both an AK and an AR15 and I like the AK more... less moving parts and simpler design, more reliable all.. things you mentioned are true. I love taking apart the Ak and having it cleaned and back together in like 2 minutes (which by the way you basically never have to do), not so for the AR. As far as troops in Iraq there were many many reports of their M16s jamming and needing to be cleaned serveral times a day because of the dust storms, and alot of jamming due to sand. But you are not going to get me to say AKs are more accurate than any member of the AR family, and since you dont think ARs/M16s aren't the most accurate I'd like to here which battle rifle you think IS the most accurate. The new HK G-36's or some shit? As far as bull pups I never really understood them. They don't seem like they are that much more compact and I dont see how they are more accurate. I will admit I have thought about buying a Bushmaster bullpup ever since I got my Bushy AR15 and was thoroughlly impressed by it. When you and RIP talk about Glocks I completelly agree, the only two Ive fired jammed on me. If there is one thing I find worthless its a firearm that jams. I was much younger when i shot them and was quite small, my lack of wrist strength might have contributed to their constant jamming, but I have never fucked with a glock since. The only thing i DO like about them is there virtual lack of a safety due to it being on the trigger, which you were going to pull anyway you know what im saying. Oh yeah and as far as the porting concept you wer talkng about for sniper rifles and automatic weapons they already do that on almost all of those weapons. They are called "muzzle brakes" and are still legal for civilians to put on their rifles (as apposed to flash supressors) this is what they look like: http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/brakes/Images/yhm-258.jpg'> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crave Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Originally posted by villain I bet troops in Iraq right now are having to clean their weapons several times a day... not so much in central and northern iraq but in the southern half of the country your statement is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rip Posted August 3, 2003 Share Posted August 3, 2003 Originally posted by villain the m4 is smaller but also has less power due to the shorter barrel which is actually a disadvantage. The ak has less moving parts, less fuss. I bet troops in Iraq right now are having to clean their weapons several times a day whereas an Iraqi aggressor could jump straight out of the sand with an ak and just start spraying.... I've never shot an m9 but I've heard they are pretty decent. Certainly better than alot of glocks. What do you think about the porting automatic weapons idea? that would make automatic fire so much more accurate. i should fucking patent that. shit. if somebody makes that and doesn't pay me i'm going to fucking kill them with the same weapon! :D ok first off the m4 looks cool but sucks. second the ak rocks. the m9 sucks so do glocks. we should bring back the 1911 .45 and third anyone know a site that sells not so expensive 1911's? i have a hard time finding this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick5542 Posted August 3, 2003 Share Posted August 3, 2003 http://earendil.ifrance.com/earendil/Mario/nes&gun.jpg'> the only gun i need. no ducks wanna step to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGBLUE Posted August 3, 2003 Share Posted August 3, 2003 http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dd27b3127cce9541f7a050d40000001610'> MY TOYS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rip Posted August 3, 2003 Share Posted August 3, 2003 Originally posted by BIGBLUE http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dd27b3127cce9541f7a050d40000001610'> MY TOYS ruger? im pretty sure the one on the left is not really sure about the one on the right though. could be tottaly wrong though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rectum Posted August 3, 2003 Share Posted August 3, 2003 Re: A Nation of Riflemen Originally posted by KaBar2 I think that a lot of the interest in firearms among young people and especially young men and teenaged boys, comes from Hollywood's irresponsible and Machaivellian policy of making firearms in movies appear to be much more powerful and dangerous than they actually are in real life. The flip side of this coin is that they do not portray the genuine real potential of the American people in an accurate light. The truth is that each and every American man and every foreign-born man who is living in the United States and who has made "declaration to become" a U.S. citizen, and who is between the ages of 17 and 45, is a member of the "unorganized militia" by law. U.S. Code Title 10, section 311. The interpretation of the Second Amendment, and subsequent case law says that citizens of the U.S. have a right to own firearms "suitable for service in the militia." This means rifles, pistols and shotguns similar to those found in service with the regular U.S. armed forces. Most of the weapons pictured in this thread, especially the "black rifles" like AR-15, M-16, M-1A, M-1 Garand, M-1 carbine, any .223 Remington or .308 Winchester caliber rifle, any AK-type clone, such as the Norinco Legend AK-S, AKM, and so forth, SKS, Ruger Mini-14, Ruger Mini-Thirty and any legal-length shotgun in 12 gauge, probably is covered by these rulings. Virtually any standard-caliber pistol would be useful, such as a 9mm Luger, 9mm Parabellum, or 9x19mm (these are actually all the same caliber, just different ways of saying it.) Any .45 ACP pistol would be useful, as well as any .38 Special or .357 Magnum. Odd calibers would be less useful, because it would be difficult to get ammunition for them in a war or national emergency. The militia organizations around the U.S. have adopted a set of ideas. One, first and foremost, is that they intend to defend the Constitution, and Constitutional Rights, regardless of who is in power. They are mostly either Republican or Libertarian, but they are very angry about the so-called Patriot Act, because it errodes Constitutional liberties and empowers Federal intelligence agencies to spy on U.S. citizens. The left, and the Democratic Party in particular, keeps pushing the idea that the militias are somehow some big threat to the rest of the country. This is completely false. The reason the Democrats hate the militia movement is because the militia members are willing to fight to defend the Constitution, and they are diligently working away preparing for any contingency. Most militia members that I have met have stockpiles of rifles, ammunition and military equipment hidden, in order that they might resist if the government becomes totalitarian, or if the U.S. experiences some catastrophe or national emergency. They are, in general, extremely law-abiding people, and would not lightly consider committing any illegal or aggressive act. It would require some gross violation of law, morals and the Constitution to move them to action. Bill Clinton and Janet Reno almost managed this with the series of governmental attacks upon citizens known as "Ruby Ridge" and the "Waco Massacre." There is a widespread belief among the militia members I know that the Oklahoma City Bombing was a government-influenced action designed to ruin the reputation of the militia movement. There are many sites on the net dedicated to this mystery, similar to the sites dedicated to the Kennedy Assassination. The main principles are these: 1.) "Every volunteer a rifleman." No cooks, bakers, medics, radiomen, etc. Riflemen first, secondary MOS second. (MOS= "military occupational specialty") This is an idea adopted from the U.S. Marine Corps. 2.) "Every volunteer a Fire Team Leader." The militia does not view itself just as a body of troops, but as an organization of LEADERS. In an emergency, they expect that thousands of fence-sitters will join them. To this end, they encourage their members to stockpile enough rifles, ammunition, uniforms and military equipment to supply at least four men (the size of a Marine fire team.) This will allow the militia to quickly expand by a factor of 400%. 3.) "Obtain rifles that shoot one of 'The Militia Three.' " The Militia Three are three types of cartridges that every militia volunteer and militia unit agrees to stockpile. This would permit one militia unit to support another unit logistically. The three cartridges are 5.56mm (.223 Rem), 7.62mm NATO (.308 Win) and 7.62x39mm (AK and SKS ammunition.) They don't care what rifle you purchase, as long as it is in one of these three calibers. Examples would be the AR-15, M-16, Mini-14, Daewoo, M-1A, FN/FAL, HK 91, CETME, AK, AKM, AKS, NHM-91, MAK-90, SAR-1, SKS, SKS Paratrooper, SKS Sporter. Along with these rifles, they ask people to obtain all the equipment that goes along with the rifle, such as at least seven thirty-round or twenty-round magazines, magazine pouches, pistol belt and combat suspenders, or combat load-bearing vest, combat cargo (butt pack), canteens and canteen pouches, sidearm and holster, appropriate radios, camouflage uniforms, combat boots and so forth. For the average militia member, this is a very large economic committment. Those that make a average wage cannot easily afford these types of expenses. Young members and young volunteers often can barely afford even a rifle, and so are sometimes provided a rifle and a full set of equipment to use during training by the organization. The unit I am familiar with had what amounted to a supply depot at a business owned by one of the members, as well as several power boats, an air boat, trucks, heavy equipment and so on "on loan" when needed from a construction company. They trained on a 385 acre farm abutting the Brazos River in Texas. Another fallacy is the idea that the militia movement is a white racist movement. Again, totally false. Meetings that I attended in Houston back in the early '90s included a fair number of black men. The difficulty arose when some of these black guys wanted to form "all black" militia units. This idea was rejected, under the principle that the militia movement does not discriminate in any way, and that since all-white units are not permitted, neither are all-black, or all-Latino, or all-anything-else units, at least, not in Texas Constitutional Militia. One of the most inspirational speakers that I heard during this time was a black college professor addressing a mostly-white, male audience on the subject of the Constitution. He got a standing ovation. For those of you interested in this, there are numerous "militia sites" on the web. They follow a philosophy known as "leaderless resistance," and encourage people to prepare as best they can individually, but in accordance with the guidelines more-or-less explained here. Owning firearms is not simply for one's own amusement or empowerment. We live in a nation of riflemen, and we keep and bear those arms in our own defense, and in defense of the Nation. I would have said hollywood makes gun look LESS powerful then they are in reality Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest keep Posted August 3, 2003 Share Posted August 3, 2003 i need to figure out how to connect my digicam to my computer. ive recently sold alot of my guns, some of them were just not practical. i only have a Ruger 10/22 with a 42 power sniper scope and a custom stock. and a Ruger Mark II that was my dads, pistols like 10yrs old, has had probably close to 200,000 rounds thu it and shoots perfect. which reminds me i need to clean them...damnit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rectum Posted August 3, 2003 Share Posted August 3, 2003 how is the .22hornet calibre for shooting feral pig sized game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rip Posted August 3, 2003 Share Posted August 3, 2003 Re: A Nation of Riflemen Originally posted by KaBar2 The main principles are these: 1.) "Every volunteer a rifleman." No cooks, bakers, medics, radiomen, etc. Riflemen first, secondary MOS second. (MOS= "military occupational specialty") This is an idea adopted from the U.S. Marine Corps. .[/i] in the air force(which i am a member of) its called an afsc = air force specialty code. me unlike most af members are activly(spelt that wrong) am at the shooting range with my .357 taurus. trying to get an sks but i dont think theyd let me check that or an ak in the amory on base. also on another note. i know kabar will know where to get one. colt 1911. where can i find one? all the ones i see are fake from like argentina. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rip Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 bump. i like guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rip Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Originally posted by wyze test pattern, you rock my world point one- i hate violence, that being said... point two- you guys need to look into the less seen stuff, the secrets, such as the pancor jackhammer (combat shotgun operated by its own recoil, but the project was abandoned). my favorite gun was experimental, and it never got off the ground either, but check it out. if any of you have seen the Halo 2 SMG, its remarkably simalar.... http://www.hkpro.com/g11.htm ok that shit is really unpractical and stuff. im sorry theres no way the military could use something that awakward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGBLUE Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 ruger? im pretty sure the one on the left is not really sure about the one on the right though. could be tottaly wrong though. TAURUS PT940^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr.yuck Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Re: Re: A Nation of Riflemen Originally posted by rip also on another note. i know kabar will know where to get one. colt 1911. where can i find one? all the ones i see are fake from like argentina. Charles Daily imports 1911 from the phillipines that the police there use. It is slightly different from american mades. It has a notch where the case is ejected that makes it eject forward from the pistol, not to the sides. I think i read that retail on them is something around $600. I'm not really farmiliar with them though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rip Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Originally posted by BIGBLUE ruger? im pretty sure the one on the left is not really sure about the one on the right though. could be tottaly wrong though. TAURUS PT940^ ugh i need to study guns more i lost my ability Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rip Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Re: Re: Re: A Nation of Riflemen Originally posted by mr.yuck Charles Daily imports 1911 from the phillipines that the police there use. It is slightly different from american mades. It has a notch where the case is ejected that makes it eject forward from the pistol, not to the sides. I think i read that retail on them is something around $600. I'm not really farmiliar with them though. are they interchangable with colt parts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr.yuck Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 I have no idea. I'm not that farmiliar with it. I just read an article on them about 4 months ago. I think they just have a few minor differences as far as the safety is concerned and like i said above. Got you're heart set on the colt, huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rectum Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Originally posted by wyze test pattern, you rock my world point one- i hate violence, that being said... point two- you guys need to look into the less seen stuff, the secrets, such as the pancor jackhammer (combat shotgun operated by its own recoil, but the project was abandoned). my favorite gun was experimental, and it never got off the ground either, but check it out. if any of you have seen the Halo 2 SMG, its remarkably simalar.... http://www.hkpro.com/g11.htm not feeling it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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