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Guest WebsterUno

Care to know what some of the 'outside' world thinks of grafitti?

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Guest WebsterUno

Its kinda long, but some noon-graff homie of mine sent me this.

Its from a Ju Jitsu forum. Kinda funny hearing it from a different

perspective. Some people actually think its ART!

 

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From: evel17

Date: 04-Mar-03 10:49 AM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

413 Total Posts

 

 

i think its cool looking and i also like that it pisses most people off. anyone else like it?

 

 

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From: OneScoup

Date: 04-Mar-03 11:02 AM

Member Since: 18-Apr-02

215 Total Posts

 

 

Well in some parts of the Bronx it's the only attractive thing about the whole area. There are some real artists there.

However in my neighborhood I'm not a big fan unless the place was a really ugly dump.

 

 

 

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From: Lumpy Gravy

Date: 04-Mar-03 11:06 AM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

2058 Total Posts

 

 

I think there are some talented artists. I wouldn't want it in my neighborhood though. Just tagging is especially gay.

 

 

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From: CBP4

Date: 04-Mar-03 11:06 AM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

245 Total Posts

 

 

ttt for graffitti - PTL CBS 4 L

 

 

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From: Savitar

Date: 04-Mar-03 11:08 AM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

1611 Total Posts

 

 

It depends on the purpose of the graffitti, but street-art is in general a very good practice...taking art of the bourgeis galleries and putting back where real people can view it.

 

 

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From: Decepticon

Date: 04-Mar-03 11:09 AM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

5528 Total Posts

 

 

I used to write, I would only like to piece though. Tagging is for punks who think they are cool. I seen kids tag cars, private property, just stupid shit. I don't mind pieced stickers, those are alright. But pieceing on a legal wall is fun as shit, esp if you know you aren't going to get busted. We would just blaze out and paint all day. Good times. PLus it's a great angle for getting poon, esp. if you dedicate one to a chick panties melt.

 

 

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From: ferox13

Date: 04-Mar-03 11:20 AM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

14709 Total Posts

 

 

I like Stencil Grafitti alot.

Completely different reasons and asthetics but I grew up on CRASS etc..

 

All these were done by an English Artish called Banksy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From: Extendo

Date: 04-Mar-03 11:29 AM

Member Since: 12-May-02

408 Total Posts

 

 

Done well it can totally transform visually bland, confining spaces into scenic wonderlands. I'm totally in favour of municipal funds for graf artists.

Crap art is crap art, but luckily their are a LOT of very talented writers out there and the law of the streets is that the good will go over the bad.

 

Been following it for fifteen years now. Two of my closest buds are writers and they are some of the best artists I know. Certainly the most prolific.

 

Kane and Recka, treating walls like runway models since 1988. Dress it up y'all.

 

 

 

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From: fernando

Date: 04-Mar-03 11:32 AM

Member Since: 15-Mar-02

4843 Total Posts

 

 

i dont mind the big pieces but i hate the fucking tag the bathroom mirror or tagging random shit! Last time i caught one those fuckers tagging the bathroom i worked at, i tagged his face with all kinds of shit!

 

 

 

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From: Savitar

Date: 04-Mar-03 11:36 AM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

1612 Total Posts

 

 

ferox, damn, those are excellent pics.

 

 

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From: evel17

Date: 04-Mar-03 05:40 PM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

414 Total Posts

 

 

those pics are great ferox. thank you all for responding.

 

 

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From: Jinx

Date: 04-Mar-03 05:44 PM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

8409 Total Posts

 

 

Those pics are sweet FEROX.

 

 

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From: ConnJudo

Date: 04-Mar-03 05:50 PM

Member Since: 28-Jul-02

224 Total Posts

 

 

evel17,

Let me know when you own some property or a nice car. I'll be sure to tag it.

 

 

 

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From: ferox13

Date: 04-Mar-03 06:22 PM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

14734 Total Posts

 

 

I was actually thinking of doing some stencil Graffitti around town...Just bizarre nonsense stuff.

I imagine it'd be easy enough on photoshop to transform a photo to a stencil.

 

Anyone ever try thi..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From: bobisabovethelaw

Date: 04-Mar-03 06:27 PM

Member Since: 21-Sep-01

5086 Total Posts

 

 

There's a place here in LA on one of the underpasses of the 110 freeway where all the best "wildstyle" graffiti guys put their shit up. Some of it is really cool.

It's very stylized but still fun to look at - some of'em are these huge-ass murals of skulls turning into cyringes into cars and shit, very colorful.

 

 

 

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From: Nick@Work

Date: 04-Mar-03 06:34 PM

Member Since: 06-Jun-02

4407 Total Posts

 

 

Krylon 4 ever!!!!

 

 

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From: Savitar

Date: 04-Mar-03 06:34 PM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

1657 Total Posts

 

 

ttt

 

 

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From: Peixes

Date: 04-Mar-03 06:36 PM

Member Since: 03-May-01

6860 Total Posts

 

 

there's currently a "video" game being played throughout the major cities of europe and northamerica. essentially, following a standard of physical and opportunistic difficulty, a few guys are spraying space invaders characters as their call signs w/a point value. i'll try to find some pics...

 

 

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From: Savitar

Date: 04-Mar-03 06:41 PM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

1660 Total Posts

 

 

Peixes, please do!

 

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From: BenA

Date: 04-Mar-03 07:17 PM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

179 Total Posts

 

 

decepticon , it sounds like you were on the bandwagon , i dont know if you have trains where your from but if your a writer you do it all - bombing pieces throwups panels -

everything if you got nothing scratch with your keys or porcelain ,trains walls the train lines , i can see from a general public point of view how they dont appreciate tags but you cannot have one without the other.(ive never seen someones car bombed before)

 

sounds like you had fun though not getting busted and getting poon from put ups though

 

plastic

 

 

 

 

 

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From: jefft73

Date: 04-Mar-03 07:21 PM

Member Since: 19-Jul-02

388 Total Posts

 

 

I love when someone scrathes out the "on" on button on a hand dryer so it says Push Butt - get it? Push Butt!

 

 

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From: Savitar

Date: 04-Mar-03 08:27 PM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

1676 Total Posts

 

 

ferox, are you an anarchist?

 

 

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From: ferox13

Date: 04-Mar-03 08:33 PM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

14772 Total Posts

 

 

ferox, are you an anarchist? '

I'm definally not political enough to label myself that. I do enjoy making people think though.

 

If I was doing stenciling I'd be more bizarre and less politcal.

 

 

 

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From: Savitar

Date: 04-Mar-03 09:21 PM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

1680 Total Posts

 

 

ferox, I don't think you have to be "political" to be an anarchist. The point, after all, is to be anti-political. I get your point, though.

 

 

 

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From: rebelartist

Date: 04-Mar-03 09:32 PM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

1303 Total Posts

 

 

I got some coolo ones I did, Pics But I'm not a blue namer I can't post. I have the pics on my hard drive. rebelartist7@aol.com

 

 

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From: Peixes

Date: 04-Mar-03 09:43 PM

Member Since: 03-May-01

6899 Total Posts

 

 

rebel, email them to me at woofram@hotmail.com

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From: Bull_in_chinashop

Date: 05-Mar-03 10:13 AM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

5294 Total Posts

 

 

ferox, the CALM crucifix would be an excellent stencil piece.

 

 

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From: Drift

Date: 05-Mar-03 10:14 AM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

3919 Total Posts

 

 

someone needs to put the bob s pic on a wall somewhere

 

 

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From: ov1

Date: 05-Mar-03 10:20 AM

Member Since: 27-Jun-02

271 Total Posts

 

 

Defacing private property is bullshit. I don't care how talented the artist is. If the artist has permission, thats one thing. But throwing color up and calling art, a statement, whatever is useless.

I always get a kick out of seeing buildings that were tagged. I wonder if the person that did it is stupid enough to think that he has some claim to the property that he just defaced. I do not say that to be provacative, but rather as a way to get someone to help me understand what appears to be a small minded "robin hood" attitude.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From: ferox13

Date: 05-Mar-03 10:20 AM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

14789 Total Posts

 

 

'ferox, the CALM crucifix would be an excellent stencil piece. '

Definally as it's based on the 12 monkeys stencil piece from the film.

 

SatanJr did it though, not me.

 

 

 

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From: pastmyprime

Date: 05-Mar-03 10:24 AM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

2057 Total Posts

 

 

OV1 is correct.

Do grafittists have a reason that they can articulate for why they believe it acceptable to paint someone elses property without permission?

 

 

 

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From: ov1

Date: 06-Mar-03 02:18 PM

Member Since: 27-Jun-02

276 Total Posts

 

 

Good question pastmyprime. I guess the answer is no.

the notion of throwing paint up on someone elses property, then somehow finding a way to rationalize it as some kind of urban artistic genre is alien to me. If its so good put it on canvas and find out if there is a market for it.

 

 

 

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From: john76

Date: 06-Mar-03 02:25 PM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

2450 Total Posts

 

 

"the market" does not define art

 

 

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From: themangler13

Date: 06-Mar-03 02:27 PM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

2021 Total Posts

 

 

drift is correct

 

 

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From: pastmyprime

Date: 06-Mar-03 02:31 PM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

2079 Total Posts

 

 

ov1, how long do you think we'll have to wait for the answer?

john76, The market may not define art, but neither does the so-called artist. Every individual defines art for himself/herself. Therefore, the artist doesn't have the right to impose his/her concept of art on a non-participating property owner.

 

 

 

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From: ov1

Date: 06-Mar-03 02:58 PM

Member Since: 27-Jun-02

278 Total Posts

 

 

the market does define art, as it should. the market judges the worth of art. Since when did "art" become an imposition? If it is so good, then why isn't it on a canvas, or on some media that can be put out into the world? As opposed to someones building, or some government owned building without the consent of the owners?

Its like rationalizing funding for the arts. The government takes money from tax payers to pay artists who's art cannot cut it in the artistic marketplace.

 

Lets call Sotheby's or Christie's and tell them that the marketplace does not define art. OR, lets tell them that there are some great walls with spraypainted, politically important, or urban important messages on them that would be great to sell.

 

I just have no respect for anyone that would deface someone elses property with run of the mill talent. There are lots of people that can do what is placed on the walls around an urban area. Don't think so? Then look at every ghetto in America, lots of thugs do it, and its not even all that original! So what we have is a little ghetto collective that does not have the balls to put something on a canvas and do something legit with it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From: Bryan72

Date: 06-Mar-03 03:14 PM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

1302 Total Posts

 

 

I liked "American Graffiti", I always wanted John Milners deuce coupe. But I'd have put a flathead in it instead of a small block chevy.

 

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From: SatanJR

Date: 06-Mar-03 03:24 PM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

7900 Total Posts

Edited:06-Mar-03 03:51 PM

 

 

This is the coolest style. And the stencil shit ferox posted.

I used to bomb shit when I was younger.

 

 

 

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From: Hoot-Jitsu

Date: 06-Mar-03 03:25 PM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

974 Total Posts

 

 

yeah, none of this crap is art

 

 

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From: pastmyprime

Date: 06-Mar-03 03:29 PM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

2082 Total Posts

 

 

How the stuff looks is irrelevant. What is relevant is whether the property owner wants it to be there.

 

 

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From: Hoot-Jitsu

Date: 06-Mar-03 03:37 PM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

975 Total Posts

 

 

so if someone where to paint something on their own building it's art, but if they did the same painting on someone else's building it isn't art?

by the way the ones I posted where all legal

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From: Peixes

Date: 06-Mar-03 03:48 PM

Member Since: 03-May-01

6974 Total Posts

 

 

market doesn't define art, btw.

 

 

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From: ov1

Date: 06-Mar-03 03:50 PM

Member Since: 27-Jun-02

280 Total Posts

 

 

Great if its legal, and sure the person that does it has a flair for coloring with spraypaint, but did they just claim that wall space for their own, on their own? Or did they just decide that they could deface someones property? Again, don't misunderstand, I am not saying that some talentless myrmadon did this; but I am trying to find out why we have lost so much respect for the right to private property. Part of the reason that urban centers are they way they are, is because of the loss of respect for private property.

 

 

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From: pastmyprime

Date: 06-Mar-03 04:18 PM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

2084 Total Posts

 

 

I'm not commenting on whether it is art or not. If the Mona Lisa was illegally painted on the side of a wall it would be wrong.

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From: ferox13

Date: 06-Mar-03 09:02 PM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

14914 Total Posts

 

 

'yeah, none of this crap is art '

LOL...

 

 

 

Not art...so tell, no show me what is art??? Nothing personal but I find that hard to take from people who produce nothing. And if you do, cool, then show me? :-)

 

Personally, I don't like spray can/air brush graffitti but I think even when done illegally it cna defianlly improve an urban enviroment.

 

 

 

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From: Hoot-Jitsu

Date: 06-Mar-03 09:19 PM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

984 Total Posts

 

 

ferox is correct

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From: ferox13

Date: 07-Mar-03 09:30 AM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

14942 Total Posts

 

 

ttt

 

 

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From: pastmyprime

Date: 07-Mar-03 09:41 AM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

2086 Total Posts

 

 

Who said the stuff isn't art? I didn't see a single post saying that. Funny how people argue with stuff that wasn't posted. OV1 and I were saying the artistic merits of the work are irrelevant when its painted on someone else's property without permission.

 

 

 

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From: Hoot-Jitsu

Date: 07-Mar-03 10:45 AM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

988 Total Posts

 

 

I apologize if I've misinterpreted what you where saying. Sometimes I'm guilty of half reading posts. Here are the statements that I read as saying this stuff isn't art.

"But throwing color up and calling art, a statement, whatever is useless."

 

"the notion of throwing paint up on someone else's property, then somehow finding a way to rationalize it as some kind of urban artistic genre is alien to me. If its so good put it on canvas and find out if there is a market for it."

 

"the market does define art, as it should. the market judges the worth of art. Since when did "art" become an imposition? If it is so good, then why isn't it on a canvas, or on some media that can be put out into the world? "

 

"How the stuff looks is irrelevant. What is relevant is whether the property owner wants it to be there."

 

 

 

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From: pastmyprime

Date: 07-Mar-03 10:46 AM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

2089 Total Posts

 

 

The last quote was mine, and that was the only point I was trying to make.

 

 

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From: Arkangael

Date: 07-Mar-03 11:01 AM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

2238 Total Posts

 

 

those are awesome! i especially like th spider-man one!

as an artist, my preferred media is digital (photoshop, illustrator, etc) and graphite, pen & ink...some painting and printmaking. but i really wish i had the skill to do graffit work like that.

 

i knew a guy in college who did that along with a small group of guys. all their work was done on buildings on which they were given permission by the owner(s). all their work was either Christian themed, or some general "positive" tone. excellent work. i wish i had some pictures i could post. those guys have talent.

 

i'm agree that tagging, or whatever it's called, is "wrong" if it's done with vandalism in mind. if it's done with permission, and the artist has any kind of skill and imagination....imo it's an awesome media, and can put some life into what might otherwise be a drab environment.

 

 

 

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From: Hoot-Jitsu

Date: 07-Mar-03 11:03 AM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

989 Total Posts

 

 

After re-reading the posts I can see your point, and I can agree that people shouldn't paint on property that isn't theirs, but I really don't think that takes away from the artistic merit if they do. I think that for a lot of people it's just a way to express themselves and to draw attention to their work. Yeah you have the punks that just do it cause they think they're cool, but there are a lot worse things they could be doing.

 

 

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From: UCLApimp

Date: 07-Mar-03 11:45 AM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

965 Total Posts

 

 

I work for a coalition of cities here in Cali. Some cities are looking into funding "mural" art to help beautify parts of town. Graffiti is a word no one likes to use b/c people have preliminary assumptions on it. One of the cities considering this in Long Beach, serious shit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From: Extendo

Date: 07-Mar-03 12:01 PM

Member Since: 12-May-02

432 Total Posts

 

 

My buds always carry around permission slips. Completely into making the neighbourhood look better.

 

 

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From: bsrizpac

Date: 07-Mar-03 12:12 PM

Member Since: 08-Jul-01

8608 Total Posts

 

 

no. it's bullshit.

 

 

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From: JoshuaB

Date: 07-Mar-03 12:13 PM

Member Since: 17-Dec-02

520 Total Posts

 

 

graffiti kicks ass

 

 

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From: pastmyprime

Date: 07-Mar-03 12:22 PM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

2091 Total Posts

 

 

I'm all for what UCLAPimp is talking about.

 

 

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From: ov1

Date: 07-Mar-03 02:15 PM

Member Since: 27-Jun-02

291 Total Posts

 

 

The talent to manipulate color cannot be overlooked here, no question. I just get hung up on the fact that someone possibly made a willful act to go to someones property and cover it in paint. I am looking at it from and individual and personal point of view, and it would seriously piss me off if I owned a building and someone took it upon themselves to redecorate the walls with a mural. Now, if they came to me and asked if they could do it, that would be a different story.

I just think that the respect for private property has gone through the floor, and we need to get it back because that was one of the greatest things that was provided for in the foundation of this country.

 

 

 

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From: evel17

Date: 07-Mar-03 05:48 PM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

426 Total Posts

 

 

those are some awsome pics.

 

 

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From: evel17

Date: 07-Mar-03 05:48 PM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

427 Total Posts

 

 

those are some awsome pics.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From: SatanJR

Date: 07-Mar-03 07:19 PM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

7973 Total Posts

Edited:07-Mar-03 07:42 PM

 

 

 

SatanJr For Lizzle mah nizzle.

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From: alphafemale

Date: 07-Mar-03 08:23 PM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

1376 Total Posts

 

 

ttt!

I love graffiti and if ever I should have a killer loft I would have some talented kids bomb the shit out of a couple walls

 

 

 

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From: scab1

Date: 07-Mar-03 08:30 PM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

411 Total Posts

 

 

"If it is so good, then why isn't it on a canvas, or on some media that can be put out into the world?"

You might want to really rethink this, ov1. A train car or a the side of a building at street level in New York City are certainly media that are out "into the world" more than canvas.

 

This thread has supplied me with a bunch of new desktops.

 

 

 

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From: alphafemale

Date: 07-Mar-03 08:33 PM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

1378 Total Posts

 

 

also its a statement on urban art ... and what better canvas then abandoned buildings, overpasses, etc.

it takes alot of talent to put that much detail, colouring, shading into such a big piece.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From: SatanJR

Date: 07-Mar-03 09:34 PM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

7975 Total Posts

 

 

alphafemale and scab1 are correct.

 

 

 

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From: hubris

Date: 07-Mar-03 09:44 PM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

9842 Total Posts

 

 

holy crap some of those are awesome

 

 

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From: FedeJKD

Date: 07-Mar-03 10:13 PM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

212 Total Posts

 

 

Most of the walls pictured above are made in NYC by FX and TATS crew. Much of their work can be found online.

Alphafemale, that's totally what i'm gonna do, except i'm gonna commission some writers, maybe Daim and Ces if they are willing, i've always admired their work. Per's too. And Cope's too.

 

 

 

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From: FedeJKD

Date: 07-Mar-03 10:16 PM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

213 Total Posts

 

 

Oh, on the HALLOWEEN'S piece, check out the body parts end up to make the word NICER in case you haven't noticed..that's the name of the artist who painted it.

 

 

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From: Popeye

Date: 07-Mar-03 10:44 PM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

6595 Total Posts

 

 

This is just wrong!!!

 

 

 

 

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From: Popeye

Date: 08-Mar-03 09:22 AM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

6603 Total Posts

 

 

ttt

 

 

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From: GMH210

Date: 08-Mar-03 11:52 AM

Member Since: 11-Dec-02

330 Total Posts

 

 

TTT

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From: Hoot-Jitsu

Date: 08-Mar-03 03:29 PM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

1000 Total Posts

Edited:08-Mar-03 03:56 PM, Edited:08-Mar-03 03:56 PM, Edited:08-Mar-03 03:5

 

www.paintmyface.puregraffiti.com

 

 

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From: bombshelter

Date: 08-Mar-03 03:55 PM

Member Since: 24-Jun-00

4133 Total Posts

Edited:08-Mar-03 04:18 PM

 

This was done by SEEN:

 

 

 

 

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From: bombshelter

Date: 08-Mar-03 03:59 PM

Member Since: 24-Jun-00

4134 Total Posts

 

 

 

 

 

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From: chiastic

Date: 08-Mar-03 04:00 PM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

385 Total Posts

 

 

cool thread

I prefer the illegal, uncommissioned pieces. The kids who are able(and willing) to paint trains/walls/buildings etc, under pressure and/or danger, most likely during the night, using a crappy torch, having to keep looking over their shoulders have some real talent. All of these factors tend to be reflected in the pieces, rather than the too-well-done, take-your-time, perfectly-coloured, commissioned murals.

 

 

 

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From: ArmbarKing

Date: 08-Mar-03 04:23 PM

Member Since: 02-May-02

1442 Total Posts

 

 

Wow this thread is amazing! Some of these pieces are unreal!

 

 

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From: Savitar

Date: 08-Mar-03 04:54 PM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

1786 Total Posts

 

 

ov1, many of those commiting these acts simply don't believe in private property to begin with and these are intended as a statment in regards to that.

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I stopped after this one,

From: Decepticon

Date: 04-Mar-03 11:09 AM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

5528 Total Posts

 

 

I used to write, I would only like to piece though. Tagging is for punks who think they are cool. I seen kids tag cars, private property, just stupid shit. I don't mind pieced stickers, those are alright. But pieceing on a legal wall is fun as shit, esp if you know you aren't going to get busted. We would just blaze out and paint all day. Good times. PLus it's a great angle for getting poon, esp. if you dedicate one to a chick panties melt.

 

what a fucknut, no wonder he stopped

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Guest uncle-boy
Originally posted by WebsterUno

From: Decepticon

Date: 04-Mar-03 11:09 AM

Member Since: 01-Jan-01

5528 Total Posts

 

 

I used to write, I would only like to piece though. Tagging is for punks who think they are cool. I seen kids tag cars, private property, just stupid shit. I don't mind pieced stickers, those are alright. But pieceing on a legal wall is fun as shit, esp if you know you aren't going to get busted. We would just blaze out and paint all day. Good times. PLus it's a great angle for getting poon, esp. if you dedicate one to a chick panties melt.

 

this guy is a plug.

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Got the adress of that forum?

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Guest bug

i didn't read all of it, but the general sentiment i gather is they like nice and pretty murals, but hate tags. The way they describe graff that they like, it sounds like legal work to me.

 

typical.... they don't like real graff. and rightfully so: if you write and are looking for acceptance among society, you're in the wrong game.

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Guest imported_Tesseract

most of the people i've met through the years view graffiti as something good at least and art at best...from old people to little kids...i think that people get irritated by tags in general...the demonising of graffiti in the states must be off the hook

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Guest WebsterUno

*believe*

 

Originally posted by bug

i didn't read all of it...

 

You should, before saying what you said.

 

Some of them like the hard core stuff.

Some dont. Its different peoples perspective

on what we do. I found it interesting.

 

Ill ask my friend for the addy. I tried

to post the link, but I couldnt find it.

I think they took the page down.

The pic links were all broken, some

people had posted pix.

 

Tesser-According to my city, we are worse

than armed robbers and the like. We cost more to the cities.

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