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Truth on War

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Guest bug

mr prez, i really hope you're not older than 15, because that would make explain why your head is so far up your ass.

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I don't have anything against the protestors themselves. Personally they are kinda annoying with some of the stuff they are doing.

Blocking traffic by laying down in the streets. Causing police to have to deal with that. Burning people's private property etc.

 

The US is of course going to accidently kill innocent Iraqi's but at the same time look at all the innocent Iraqi's Saddam has butchered on purpose 20 years ago and continuing now.

 

Yes many Iraqi's are suspicious of the US. They were expecting us to go in along with a large portion of the world during the Gulf War. Then after we tried to get together an overthrow of Saddams "government". We backed out after it started and Saddam was able to kill his own innocent Iraqis. You also have the idea of outsiders coming into your country which is always scary. It doesen't help when you have Al Jazeera broadcasting Saddam's propaganda all over the Middle East as this regions main "news station". But after all is said and done I think the Iraqi people will be better off. And by the numbers casualties of Iraqi's in this war will be far lower than a few months of Saddam's army/secret police, etc.

 

 

Here's an interesting piece by a reporter and former "human shield"

The original article can be found here.

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/...23%2Fdo2305.xml

 

I was a naive fool to be a human shield for Saddam

By Daniel Pepper

(Filed: 23/03/2003)

 

 

I wanted to join the human shields in Baghdad because it was direct action which had a chance of bringing the anti-war movement to the forefront of world attention. It was inspiring: the human shield volunteers were making a sacrifice for their political views - much more of a personal investment than going to a demonstration in Washington or London. It was simple - you get on the bus and you represent yourself.

 

So that is exactly what I did on the morning of Saturday, January 25. I am a 23-year-old Jewish-American photographer living in Islington, north London. I had travelled in the Middle East before: as a student, I went to the Palestinian West Bank during the intifada. I also went to Afghanistan as a photographer for Newsweek.

 

The human shields appealed to my anti-war stance, but by the time I had left Baghdad five weeks later my views had changed drastically. I wouldn't say that I was exactly pro-war - no, I am ambivalent - but I have a strong desire to see Saddam removed.

 

We on the bus felt that we were sympathetic to the views of the Iraqi civilians, even though we didn't actually know any. The group was less interested in standing up for their rights than protesting against the US and UK governments.

 

I was shocked when I first met a pro-war Iraqi in Baghdad - a taxi driver taking me back to my hotel late at night. I explained that I was American and said, as we shields always did, "Bush bad, war bad, Iraq good". He looked at me with an expression of incredulity.

 

As he realised I was serious, he slowed down and started to speak in broken English about the evils of Saddam's regime. Until then I had only heard the President spoken of with respect, but now this guy was telling me how all of Iraq's oil money went into Saddam's pocket and that if you opposed him politically he would kill your whole family.

 

It scared the hell out of me. First I was thinking that maybe it was the secret police trying to trick me but later I got the impression that he wanted me to help him escape. I felt so bad. I told him: "Listen, I am just a schmuck from the United States, I am not with the UN, I'm not with the CIA - I just can't help you."

 

Of course I had read reports that Iraqis hated Saddam Hussein, but this was the real thing. Someone had explained it to me face to face. I told a few journalists who I knew. They said that this sort of thing often happened - spontaneous, emotional, and secretive outbursts imploring visitors to free them from Saddam's tyrannical Iraq.

 

I became increasingly concerned about the way the Iraqi regime was restricting the movement of the shields, so a few days later I left Baghdad for Jordan by taxi with five others. Once over the border we felt comfortable enough to ask our driver what he felt about the regime and the threat of an aerial bombardment.

 

"Don't you listen to Powell on Voice of America radio?" he said. "Of course the Americans don't want to bomb civilians. They want to bomb government and Saddam's palaces. We want America to bomb Saddam."

 

We just sat, listening, our mouths open wide. Jake, one of the others, just kept saying, "Oh my God" as the driver described the horrors of the regime. Jake was so shocked at how naive he had been. We all were. It hadn't occurred to anyone that the Iraqis might actually be pro-war.

 

The driver's most emphatic statement was: "All Iraqi people want this war." He seemed convinced that civilian casualties would be small; he had such enormous faith in the American war machine to follow through on its promises. Certainly more faith than any of us had.

 

Perhaps the most crushing thing we learned was that most ordinary Iraqis thought Saddam Hussein had paid us to come to protest in Iraq. Although we explained that this was categorically not the case, I don't think he believed us. Later he asked me: "Really, how much did Saddam pay you to come?"

 

It hit me on visceral and emotional levels: this was a real portrayal of Iraq life. After the first conversation, I completely rethought my view of the Iraqi situation. My understanding changed on intellectual, emotional, psychological levels. I remembered the experience of seeing Saddam's egomaniacal portraits everywhere for the past two weeks and tried to place myself in the shoes of someone who had been subjected to seeing them every day for the last 20 or so years.

 

Last Thursday night I went to photograph the anti-war rally in Parliament Square. Thousands of people were shouting "No war" but without thinking about the implications for Iraqis. Some of them were drinking, dancing to Samba music and sparring with the police. It was as if the protesters were talking about a different country where the ruling government is perfectly acceptable. It really upset me.

 

Anyone with half a brain must see that Saddam has to be taken out. It is extraordinarily ironic that the anti-war protesters are marching to defend a government which stops its people exercising that freedom.

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Guest BROWNer

no fuckwit, its taking the time to think critically about the information

that is jammed down our throats. ALL OF IT IS SUBJECT TO CRITICAL ANALYSIS. you'd be skeptical of iraqi news, so

why would you just bend over and take american news up your skinny

white ass? again, do you have any fucking

clue about the history of war time news coverage that comes from

the perpertrating state? NO. you guys have the fucking weakest arguments

that are based on fucking SQUAT.

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Guest BROWNer

stop fucking assuming people that are 'anti-war' have no ability

to see the facts about saddam hussein.

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BrownER is correct. I'm glad he and seeking and whoever else have taken the time out to try and open your eyes, but I'm sure it isn't gonna work. I ain't gonna try and say shit like "typical american :rolleyes: ", but on the real, you guys gotta wake the fuck up or get broke the fuck up. The only good thing I can think of is that maybe in a few years the US will finally learn their lesson when they get picked on in the cafeteria by the entire school. I'm not an anti-american. I'm a proud Canadian. And I don't like your government's attitude towards us. You guys really do fuck us up in the free trade deal in damn near every aspect. It's because of your imperialistic ways. And your response? Some stupid joke aboot the way we talk, eh?

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btw, I'm not totally anti-war. I really don't know enough about it, I guess. I do know that this war is fucking up the fragile desert ecosystem, though.

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Guest KING BLING

WE HAVE A "FORMER" COKE HEAD ALCOHOLIC WITH TWO SLUTTY DRUNK DAUGHTERS AND A ROBOT WIFE RUNNING THE COUNTRY. THAT IS BY FAR THE COOLEST THING ABOUT ALL THESE POLITICAL DISCUSSIONS....

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Guest bug

i've just vowed to never waste another second trying to read mr prez. he's not even worth discussing anything with, and nothing insightful to say whatsoever

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ARGH...

 

Well, i had about a 3 page comeback for you, but unfortunatly i hit the back button...

 

So in shortened form:

 

"Seeking" had a *dream* that ten years from now terrorist organizations would come to love america, saddam would leave power quietly, without putting a son in his place, (and seeking could actually pick up a can of paint and do something unique with it)....among other things.;)

Yup, he dropped some knowledge all right.

 

I WOKE UP right then and there!!! :rolleyes: :eek: Wow, what a rush!

"since when is trying to insure that america is still fucking in existence ten years from now, 'un-american'??"~"Seeking"

~And by sitting back and watching, we ensure that we are here ten years from now right? Yup. Ok.

 

Earth to captain fucking make believe IS RIGHT!..Your embarrased for me?? HAHAHA.

What fucking world are you living in..?

OH Shit i forgot, you havent left your computer chair in 3 years..

How can you be "Seeking" anything if you dont leave the house let alone never lived in another country and experienced other cultures and ways of life?

 

Keep on pretending like your shit dont stink. Or maybe its your nappy ass hair? You tell me.

 

"if i ever suspected myself of such blindness, id take my own life and apologise to anyone i forced to listen to my bullshit."

Too late: say im sorry and pull the trigger NOW.

 

Seriously, i would like to hear browners ideas on what we should have done. Infact, i would love to hear everyones ideas..

 

Can each and everyone of you honestly say that your way would be better?

 

Im not pro-war. I have family members fighting in Iraq right this min. What reason would i have to push this thing if the ones i love would be hurt or killed because of it??

 

Basically, i feel that SOMETHING should be done about Saddam. Sitting back in denial helps no one. Yes you have the RIGHT to say whatever you want. Thats fucking awesome. But remember this, its a right. Many of you seem to forget this. Remember the people who came before us, and fought and died so that you may spout off anything you want. Some never knew what it was like to have that right. They died before knowing the great power of our country and how remarkable it is. Protest the war, speak your mind, push for the war. But of all things, DO NOT disgrace them by allowing this man to get away with such cowardly acts. So maybe it does not take a war, but to hang around and watch such things go on in the world would counteract everything that our country has ever stood for.

 

~ssp

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hahaha...

countering my political arguments with completely fabricated, 100% untrue, comments about MY life?

i talk about the war (and your complete obliviousness to it), you talk about me.

 

its not my ego thats so big, its my dick half way down your throat.

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wow....now there was a comeback....

 

 

:rolleyes:

 

 

where are those ideas about what we should do seeking? everyone can bitch about whats being done, but how about the alternatives?

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Yikes...your dicks 2 inches long? Sorry buddy..

I seen what youve done in detroit and your style is shitty, even though your main spots are legal and/or off the beaten path walls...

Not even stellar. How long have you painted??

 

"politicial arguments" hehe..

You never answered any of my questions by the way..

Hello?

 

You "talk" about the war. Ok. Lets hear you thoughts and ideas and general consensus..?

 

Your not talking to much there champ.

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wow, you saw the spots i had in a city i havent lived in in almost 4 years.

 

if you wanna talk about graffiti, then be about graffiti. bring it to me. im calling you out.

 

 

oh, and what do i think we should do?

 

i think we should stop bowing to israel for god knows what reason, acknowledge that they fit the same criteria as iraq, korea, and the rest of the 'axis of evil', and start treating them like the hostile regime they are. once that happens, the arab states will not be able to claim we're playing favorites and it will be one less strike they have against us, which will help to begin repairing that situation.

i think we should lift the embargo on iraq that has killed upwards of a million people, and stop spewing this pathetic rhetoric about how saddam kills his own people. we should acknowledge the damage our actions have caused the civillians' we now seem to care so much about.

i think we should be honest with american people, as to the fact that we gave iraq the 'go ahead' to invade kuwait, then once he did it, we turned on him and painted him as a murderous villian. a murderous villian who was our allie just one year prior to the war. we should also acknowledge that iraq had a legitimate 'beef' with kuwait, as the two countries were in conflict as to who actually owned the land that was in question.

i think we should acknowledge that the 'war for democracy' that was fought in 91, ended with two dictatorships still firmly in place, iraq and kuwait.

i think we should stop using foreign governments as pawns in the never ending quest to set up the middle east to our liking.

i think we should acknowledge that iran, iraq and bin laden have all been our allies in the last twenty years, and the bulk of technology and munitions they have, come from us.

i think we should stop deceiving the public about the real stakes of this 'war'. i think we should be honest with the public about the 600 american and britishh soldiers who are already suspected dead in one week of fighting..

i think we should invest some fo the 80 billion dollars we are funneling into the war, into helping out the completely impoverished and war-torn middle eastern countries that are giving birth to future bin ladens every single day. i think we should stop our (absolutely unecessary) dependence on fossil fuels, and begin utlizing the technology we already have, in its place. there have been gasoline powered motors that get 100mpg in existence for half a decade, but because of pacts between the oil companies and the auto manufacturers, they are being hidden. this keeps us further dependent on oil, which keeps us wiith a vested interest in middle eastern politics.

as for the iraq situation in specific, i think we should work with the UN to try and come up with a peaceful resolution. i think we should acknowledge the fact that we have NO proof of the existence of WMD or chemical weapons in iraq (other than the fact that we at one point supplied them to him). i think we need to be honest about the fact that much of the information we have about saddams supposed munitions (and thus what much of our intelligence is based upon), comes from sadaam's son in law who defected to america and told us, in detail, that the weapons had been destroyed. and before you say, 'well why believe him?' the answer is,, if we are going to be puttiing our soldiers lives at risk over his word, then we better fucking believe it, and if we're going to believe it, we need to believe it all, not just parts of it.

i think we need to stop making up threats, and avoiding the very real, very impending threats that do exist. there is more evidence linking both the american government and the israeli government to 9.11, than there is linking saddam.

i think we should be honest about the fact that bin laden has proclaimed saddam to be a traiter to islam and should be executed, which certainly goes against any notion that he was supporting bin laden.

i think we should stop being the 'bad guy' in every single situation we get ourselves involved in.

i think we should acknowledge that halliburtin, who still pays cheney a million dollars a year, stands to make about a billion dollars on reconstruction of iraq and development of the oil fields. we shoudl also admit that i believe it is 35 high ranking US politicians have vested interest in companies who will be making millions and millions of dollars off the war (win or lose).

 

i think before we start bitching about the iraqi's arent 'playing fair' because they're faking surrender and what not, we need to own up to our involvement in theflat our murder of 3000 suspected taliban supporters in afghanistan last year. and by the way, this isnt some suspected claim, the whole thing was filmed by a documentary film maker.

 

oh wait, i got off the subject of iraq in specific. i think if we are so god damn adimant about 'saving' the iraqi people from their 'despot' of a leader, we should do so with their actual best interest in mind. we, along with the rest of the UN, should supply them with the medical aid and food we've been denying them for 12 years.

 

i also think we need to repeal the incredible infringements on our civil liberties that we've given away in the completely fabricated 'war on terrorism'.

 

do i really need to keep going?

 

unlike you, i do not simply MAKE UP things to back my opinion. thus far, not a single thing you've said has been based on even a shred of truth. not about saddam's posetion of chemical weapons, not about frances fear of having sold iraq nuclear weapons, and most certainly not about me.

 

 

and chozer, no one hates me anymore, hating me is sooooo two years ago.

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Man, this thread is so rife with ignorance I barely feel like dirtying my brain trying to respond.

I am against the war, against Bush, against Saddam. They all suck for various reasons. I shouldn't have to explain why but some of the audience in here is pretty thick.

Nobody is clean, nobody is on the "right" side in any of this. Hussein is a brutal dictator who has used chemical weapons against "his" own people, and run a regime of terror against mainstream Iraqis, where dissent is not permitted. Obviously his removal is not without merit. But it is being done wrong and will carry a high price. We will lose many more American troops, alienate many of our former allies and put stress on NATO, and further polarize the Muslim/US antagonism. Sadly, the fraudulent view put forth by Osama (that the US is against Islam) has taken a step toward coming true, and will be perceived by most Muslims as being a given. This will accelerate the intensity of terrorist attacks against all US targets for many years to come, and subsequently more American freedoms will be curtailed as we become more of a police state, Orwell style.

There are plenty of other repressive regimes of Iraq's caliber out there - North Korea, China, and a basket of African dictatorships torn by civil war and genocide. Why is Bush ignoring them and picking a fight with Iraq? He never gave the American people a good reason why Iraq, why now, and why war right away without pursuing every other avenue. The US is not pursuing ANY avenues against the other dictatorships I named. So we are not "liberating" Iraq out of any moral kindness, there are strategic reasons behind it. This is kindergarten-level understanding of politics and statecraft and a lot of people posting in this thread don't get it.

Bush, by ignoring loud voices from most of the world, our allies, and from the Americans he claims to represent, all to rush into war regardless of the consequences, closely imitates the dictators he claims to deplore.

I agree that this is a serious global crisis, not just a quickie, justifiable war. The great danger to the world, in my opinion, is Bush himself. I am speculating here, because I don't know him personally, and can only judge by his actions, but he appears to be unfit for the presidency: a lesser man who, with some luck and nepotistic backing, wound up the leader of the free world, and deep down wonders if he can live up to the challenge, a secret insecurity that affects his decision-making. He wants a "legacy", he does not want to appear weak, and hey, he can crank the steering wheel in any old direction and wouldn't it be fun. I think being elected president of the US has to be a serious headfuck, and only men with a great deal of intelligence, manipulation skills, and understanding of psychology are ready for it.

I just picture (all too clearly) Bush sitting on a toilet in the White House, taking a crap, maybe looking at some memos, and all of a sudden he remembers, I rule the free world, and he gets an anxiety attack followed by an odd high, a sneaking relief that he can get away with many irresponsibilities.

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cracked, as usual, id love to hear the stuff you disagree with, since contrary to (now) minority oppinion, i really am far more interested in 'truth' than post count. ;)

 

 

 

seeking/lover, crap taker, free world ruler

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seeking... sounds good. but where do you get your facts. where the fuck does everyone else get there facts anyhow? i think when you say somethin, you should drop a link to a site with that info cause it's one thing to say somthin and another thing to read the actual shit and draw your own conclusions...

 

 

but anyhow... i'm board and want to read some stuff... any links to any of the info you dropped ?

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most of what i said is either simply common sense, or just things you accumulate by paripherally paying attention. i dont deal with specifics too often, cause i dont pay enough attention to dates, names etc. i just know the 'whole' by which things operate.

 

a link ive been checking alot lately is

 

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/

 

its an accumulative site that just pulls stories from news agencies all over the world.

im not so sure how really 'unbiased' you could claim it is, but it definitely gives a different perspective. usually all the stories are 'rebutles' to the information spread around by the mass media, so instead of 'reporting' the situations, they're 'factualizing' them.

of course, be sceptical of anyone claiming to have a monopoly on truth.

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Guest BROWNer

from http://www.dailystar.com.lb/29_03_03/art23.asp

 

Former CIA analyst: US ‘conned into war’

Robert Baer charges that the American-led invasion is a ‘dire mistake’

 

BEIRUT: Middle East expert and former Central Intelligence Agency officer Robert Baer has charged that the American-led war in Iraq is a dire mistake based on false assumptions and faulty information, but that President George W. Bush cannot stop now and leave Saddam Hussein in power after the long emotional and political buildup to the war.

“The American people, Congress, government and president were conned into this war, in the full sense of the word, by neo-conservatives and hawks in Washington who sold a false bill of goods. The president was lied to and given erroneous information that was filtered through Iraqi exiles who had not lived in Iraq for 20 or 30 years and had no clear idea of realities inside Iraq. The exiles had no intention of fighting themselves, but wanted the US to fight for them,” he told The Daily Star Thursday in an interview.

The 21-year CIA veteran quit the agency in good standing about five years ago, and was given the Career Intelligence Medal for his service.

He called this “almost an accidental war,” against the backdrop of an American population that did not bother with foreign affairs but suddenly suffered the wrenching emotional experience of the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks.

“There was already in place among some circles in Washington an old plan to attack Iraq. After Sept. 11, 2001 it was sold to the president, who was told that this would be a quick, decisive, easy, almost bloodless operation, at little expense and with no resistance by Iraqis, with Saddam Hussein gone at a flash of the muzzle. But it has not worked out that way. Determined Iraqis who stalled mechanized divisions in southern Iraq are not just pockets of resistance. In its first week the war did not go as planned.”

Baer, who has published a book on his years in the CIA and is now publishing a second book about Saudi Arabia, said the worst scenario for the US is to surround and lay siege to Baghdad and its 5 million people.

He fears that this will increase the bitterness felt against the US by Arabs and Muslims, who increasingly see Americans as hostile to them. He is also concerned “that young Americans now are fighting and dying in Iraq based on faulty analyses from questionable sources,” but he cannot see Bush stopping the war now.

“President Bush spent nine months working the American population into a frenzy of fear and anger about Saddam Hussein, and he cannot now tell them that it was not so serious after all, that he has to stop the war and leave Saddam in power.”

The best way to minimize long-term damage to the US’ standing in this region is for Washington “to make a brisk, clean transition to Iraqi or Iraqi-UN rule after the war ends, offer substantial assistance for reconstruction, leave the Iraqis alone , and turn America’s attention quickly to achieving a fair resolution of the Arab-Israeli conflict.” - R.K.

 

*robert baer was actually not an 'analyst' but a case officer in the DO(directorate of operations, the directorate responsible for officers that are out in the real world recruiting and getting real information in hotspots)..dood was stationed primarily in the whole zone of the middle east including beirut's heyday for upwards of 20years..he was also the ranking CIA case officer in iraq in the '90's and was the one who tried to get washington to back the iraqi generals that devised a plan to take out saddam or get him to step down.

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Guest uncle-boy

im drunk right now so i dont give a fuck about offending your 12oz revered asses.

 

the US didnt give Iraq chemical agents so they could build weapons. it was given to their hospitals and scientists so they could make antidotes, and learn about treating such illnesses. so dont go blabbing that the US gave them chemical shit so we are at fault.

 

the fact still remains that this is a tyranical leader who poses a REAL threat to our lives and freedom. with the shit he is trying to pull, its rediculous to see that you guys are still sucking his (saddam) dick.

 

now fuck you and all your pompass ass comments about me not knowing about propagandah. what?? are you so blind to see that you may not be falling for it yourself?

 

I WILL BE PROVEN RIGHT WHEN ALL THIS IS OVER.

 

PS. america was built on the same principles, initiatives, motives, and confidence, that we all love and take advantage of. including you.

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Guest BROWNer

i'm a dick head

 

Originally posted by uncle-boy

its rediculous to see that you guys are still sucking his (saddam) dick.

 

its ridiculous i'm even going to reply to you.

even more ridiculous is how your underwear is around your ankles and your ass is getting jammed with multiple politicians wangs and you're all for it with a shit eating grin.

i'm seriously kicking and cringing at myself for getting into this bullshit argument with

the few of you guys who have obviously dedicated jack shit to informing yourselves to any logically coherent and reasonable standard. and i'd like to apologise to MYSELF for resorting to immature insults. like tesseract said before, STICK TO DANCE PARTIES. not once have i made any attempt to defend saddam hussein.

 

now fuck you and all your pompass ass comments about me not knowing about propagandah. what?? are you so blind to see that you may not be falling for it yourself?

 

falling for what, that there is no evidence of iraqi WMD yet? that the coalition of the 'willing' is a total joke save for a couple of countries? that there is ZERO credible evidence linking saddam hussein and the iraqi population to al qaeda? that the accusations that niger sold 500tons of 'yellow cake' uranium to iraq was based on embarrassingly bad forgeries that your administration bought hook line and sinker and then propagated daily when it should have been responsible and thorough enough to check the credibility of it, but instead used it for political leverage? that a massive chunk of the world's countries and peoples are increasingly resenting your countries bald faced lies and arrogance? please dispute any of this.

i've been subjected to the largest, most successful PR assault ever devised.

you don't know shit about propaganda, the mechanics of it, the PR industry, none of it. you probably don't even know who goebbels was, but i have faith in your intelligence enough to expect you'll do a google right after reading this.

 

you know, its pretty ironic that after pissing all over the UN your country chose to try and save face and fall back on the previous 2 UN resolutions from gulf war 1 to authenticate its legality and authorization for war. people are sick of the POMPASS, ARROGANT double standards, and your own population is becoming more and more fragmented becuz of it.

 

shameless: my ideas and anyone else's of what 'should have been done' have been rendered moot. your motive to try and corner me with a massively complex question so you can sit back and say 'hah!' is weeeaakk.

ps-i don't think i directly dissed or addressed your theories, nor do i believe they

are completely absurd.

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