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the war...your opinions..


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Originally posted by ModelCitizen

I Don't consider myself to be anti- or pro-war;

 

ah the nuetrals...... there just so nuetral you dont know what side there on.....kip prepare my space suit. well crash the express ship into the nuetrals main hall thus saving the world of the nuetrals.......

 

i suck ud think id do a better job quoting futurama

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Guest BROWNer

more myopia

 

Originally posted by KaBar

It's not about RACE.

 

i've been thinking about this.

on the surface it may seem that way, but i don't think so.

9/11 and the resulting patriotism has been the base for

the current bush trajectory, and patriotism in my mind

is a kind of self glorification, and especially after 9/11

it became this rabid 'we're better than them' dichotomy,

which continues, us against them. them being whole

populations labelled as 'evil'. the US gov't always plays the moral

high ground even though they have some historically bankrupt scruples.

the bottom line is innocent death is never

acceptable, and it sure as hell isn't 'just', and that goes

both ways, from al qaeda using lo-tech and unconventional

means, to the united states using

an insane military superiority of massive bombing campaigns

to communicate to populations, just as al qaeda communicated

by using planes as bombs. i suppose there have been times

when war is the only answer, but innocent death is never a

justifiable by-product of using extreme prejudice, and i don't

believe this particular conflict is one of those times. war is organized death.

war turns human beings into objects, objects to control or gratify or both.

for the population to accept war you have to denigrate the 'target'.

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Guest Pseudoprep©

Shut your fucking mouth you pussies...right now two of OUR own are terrified.

 

You think their families and friends are thrilled right now? NO. But that doesnt change the fact that they have been captured. They quoted both of the pilots earlier, both responding that they WANTED to go to war and now you PUSSIES are bickering about if we are for or against the war? WHO FUCKIN CARES. Support YOUR troups. They are out there risking THEIR lives and being captured (mostlikely beaten, some tortured and killed) so you can sit on your fat ass and bicker over the internet. If you are so adament about the war ending, support the cause (ANTI-TERROR, and FREEING THE IRAQI PEOPLE from SADAM'S REGIME).

 

Arm yourself with knowledge you retarded highschool dropouts:

 

 

Iraqi TV Shows Two Men Said to Be Captured U.S. Pilots

Monday, March 24, 2003

 

BAGHDAD, Iraq_—_Iraqi state television on Monday showed two U.S. Army pilots captured by Iraqi forces after their Apache helicopter was forced down during heavy fighting in central Iraq.

Gen. Tommy Franks, the U.S. war commander, confirmed that a helicopter did not return from its mission Sunday and that its two-man crew was missing: Chief Warrant Officer Ronald D. Young Jr., 26, of Lithia Springs, Ga., and Chief Warrant Officer David S. Williams, 30, of Orlando, Fla.

Monday night, the Pentagon declared the men prisoners of war.

The airmen were the second set of POWs displayed by the Iraqis in as many days. On Sunday, the Arab satellite station Al-Jazeera carried Iraqi television footage of five U.S. soldiers who were captured near An Nasiriyah, a crossing point over the Euphrates River.

Iraq's U.N. Ambassador Mohammed Al-Douri said Monday his government would allow the International Committee of the Red Cross to visit the prisoners, as called for in the Geneva Conventions.

"I can assure you that our religion, our customs, our social values, order us to protect those prisoners and to protect their life," he said in an interview with Associated Press Television News.

Some of the soldiers shown on Iraqi television Sunday appeared to be injured, but the men shown Monday did not.

The two wore cream-colored pilots' overalls and did not speak to the camera but appeared confused. They turned their heads and looked in different directions while being filmed. One of the men sipped from a glass of water, looking wary but not cowed.

The contents of one man's wallet were displayed across a table, including a Texas driver's license, a card from the Fort Hood National Bank, phone cards and credit cards.

The helicopter was from the Army's 1st Battalion of the 227th Aviation Regiment, based in Fort Hood, Texas. Military officials said Williams has been in the service for 12 years, and has a wife and two children who live on Fort Hood. Young, an Army man for three years, is single.

In her home outside Atlanta, Young's mother said she knew there was a one in six chance her son had been shot down when she saw footage Monday of an Apache helicopter from his unit in an Iraqi field. She recognized the 1st Battalion's "Vampires" insignia on the helicopter, which only five other aircraft have.

"I just kept feeling like it was him," Kaye Young told The Associated Press. "I went hysterical. I'm numb now."

A few hours later, a chaplain and officer arrived to confirm her fears.

Later Monday, the Young family saw Iraqi state television footage showing her son. Young was holding a drink and appeared to be eating a wafer.

"I don't think he looked frightened," his mother said. "He looked stubborn, mad. He probably was frightened though."

The footage was shown after Iraq claimed it shot down two Apache helicopters and was holding the pilots.

"A small number of peasants shot down two Apaches," Information Minister Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf said. "Perhaps we will show pictures of the pilots."

Franks denied that a second chopper had been lost, or that any craft had been shot down by farmers.

Iraqi state television showed pictures of one Apache helicopter in a grassy field. Men in Arab headdresses holding Kalashnikovs automatic rifles danced around the aircraft.

The station also aired pictures of two helmets apparently belonging to members of the helicopter's crew, as well as documents and other papers lying on the ground.

Al-Sahhaf said Iraq would consider displaying the other helicopter it claims to have shot down.

He, too, said the POWs would be treated according to the Geneva Conventions and rejected accusations that Iraq had violated such accords by allowing Iraqi television to film them and ask questions.:mad:

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Guest BROWNer

yea, it sucks ass, its really too bad that some good young dudes

are getting fucked up, but its really interesting that you can turn

this around on the iraqi population and blame them. you've been suckered into

this lie, a state syntax jammed down your throats, a myth that

you guys are fighting this just, righteous war, this notion of glory. its a bald faced lie

and you guys are eating it up. the moral choice has been made up for you by the government, they have provided the syntax and you sit back in your recliner and appropriate it without any filter..and its easy cuz it removes the anxiety of being confused and fucked up over something that is wrong, its easier to chill watching sitcoms and have fun exulting in our own military prowess and ability to mold and shape the world in any way you want no matter what the rest of us think. pick a side, reduce human beings to objects, literally corpses whose lives are beneath your glorious nation and all it stands for. its bullshit. all wars are lies, and you can't suspend the base lie of this war just

becuz friendly 'defenders' of our empty disneyland culture are being captured and beat up. what do you expect, you're invading a sovereign country that hasn't done shit to you. and kabar, your little thing on americans being so human to captured enemies is really great, but its a crock. another example of convenient double standards. guess you weren't paying attention to the shit americans were participating in and turning a blind eye to during the afghan invasion huh?

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Originally posted by 2BLAZZED

i would like to know what your guys opinion on the war with iraq and suddam hussien are...i personally think this is all over the oil...bush's family is filthy rich from the oil business...all he wants is there oil n he knows if he takes out saddam he will give 90 billion diollars to the counrty of iraq to recover...u think he aint getting nothin for that money...and yes we the american people might be safe from nuclear missilies n what not while we r on american soil...but how is that gonna stop a crazy arab wit a bomb on his chest to run in a buildin n blow it up...i see guard dogs n army people every day in grand central station n that all doesnt matter if a suicide bomber comes running in cuz all he has to do is push a button...or how bout if they take a jar full of anthrax n just throw it off a building and wipe out almost a hole city...and why is it that everything u will need to survive a nuclear attack ( gas mask and all that shit) comes out to 6 g's wat about the people barley making a living...they dont matter??...and why is the goverment sleeping on north korea...they got nuclear missiles that can hit the westcoast...nastardamus predicited that the twin towers where gonna get knocked down n they did...he always predicted that half of california was gonna sink n dissapear...n north korea got a missle that can reach cali...so i dont know why they arents taking them as a threat...there more a threat then iraq....thats my opinion about this war..like everything else in this counrty its a scheme.....and money is the route of all evil....what you guys thinks...lets get a nice big thread going here...

 

you are stupid, ignorant and in desperate need of a bullet to the head

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you poeple dont realise that this war is going smoothly???

 

for the same amount of land the american have taken in a few days hundreds of thousands of people would have died in world war two.....

 

you think a handful of casualtie precipricates a shitty war? this is going smooth as pie ....... this is definately a worthwhile conflict by all means.

 

and 2blazzed or whatever you hardcore name is: oil is not the motive for this war, dickhead? use your fucken dead brain fag

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<span style='color:#460A05'>S[/color]o familiar and overwhelmingly warm

This one, this form I hold now.

Embracing you, this reality here,

This one, this form I hold now,

so Wide eyed and hopeful.

Wide eyed and hopefully wild.

We barely remember

what came before this precious moment,

Choosing to be here right now.

Hold on, stay inside...

This body holding me,

reminding me that I am not alone in

This body makes me feel eternal.

All this pain is an illusion.</span>

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Guest ModelCitizen

I support the troops!

 

I don't actually do anything ... I just sit here and claim support ... but I support them nonetheless. Go troops.

 

Actually, no, I don't support them. The troops are wack. Fuck the troops.

 

What the fuck's the difference?

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Guest Pseudoprep©

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by BROWNer

dysfunctional nationalism at its worst.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

haha. nice try you makeshift commie.

 

 

http://www.paulreveresociety.com

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Guest ctrl+alt+del

michael savage is a racist and extremely shallow and ignorant.

 

its amazing to me how stupid the majority of america is.

 

 

 

thoreau was right.

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Guest Dr. Drew

i'm bored at work, and need some brain stimulation...

 

All I can say is that I was fifty times as bitterly against the Vietnam War as anybody on this board, and just as smart-ass about it as any of you. I thought I knew better than any of the adults and I thought Johnson, then Nixon were both fascists, blah, blah, blah. I WAS WRONG.

what were you wrong about? the US entered vietnam under the false pretense of stopping communism. well, the US lost, and communism DID NOT spread like wildfire as the US claimed would happen.

 

I hated "plastic people" (oh, the surety of one's convictions when young), and the suburbs. Smoking pot was de rigeur, the only music worth listening too was what is now "classic rock" (it was brand new and "revolutionary" back then, of course) and I repeatedly hitch-hiked and rode trains all across the U.S. to attend anti-war rallies, "peace marches" and "Movement gatherings." We danced all around revolution against the Government. We were dead wrong.

yes, you do understand the attitude of many young people. but again, what were you wrong about in terms of the US attacking another nation for not following our demands?

 

 

When I look back upon that time in my life, I ask myself "How could I have been so self-deluded?"

 

Your experience may been based on irrational thought or emotions, but it doesn't take away from the issue of the US ethnocentrically imposing our values and rules on other nations

 

The United States is far from perfect. Our leaders are far from perfect. But it is the absolutely best thing going. In Iraq, if the people who posted such anti-government statements on 12 oz. did that in Baghdad or Basra, they would wind up with electrodes on their nuts and their hand in a vise.

 

comparing two piles of horse manure may establish which one is superior, but some of us would rather grow flowers.

 

 

You guys are so cynical---you just can't see it. It's hard for me to read people's posts who justify the murder and maltreatment of U.S. soldiers. War is hell, for sure. They knew what they were doing when they signed up, one can only suppose. They were "adults"--18, 19, 20 years old. Getting killed in legitimate combat is one thing, but being shot out of hand after capture is another thing altogether. I'm not at all surprised that the Iraqis did it, but I'm kind of surprised that people born and raised in the U.S., who have benefitted all their lives from living here, and who are being defended by those very same soldiers, could write things so cynical, calloused and uncaring.

 

No disrespect to those who have been lost, but some of us feel that these soldiers are not "defending" us, but rather serving the political agenda of those in power. Not all of us are convinced that this war is about removing weapons from saddam.

 

We have thousands of Iraqi EPW's. They are being treated well, they are being given food and water and medical care just like our own soldiers receive. They are being treated with dignity and honor. After the war is over, some of them may wind up wearing the uniform of the New Iraqi Army.

 

Ever hear about Iraqis in the US being rounded-up in the same fashion as the Japanese in WW2? I really doubt there will be a new Iraqi Army, more like a new dictator to succeed saddam.

 

I hope the Iraqis get the democratic, constitutional republic that they desire. With luck, they will get it.

 

Again, americans imposing our values and beliefs on others. It didn't happen in Kuwait, although we were told it was one of the US's reasons for desert storm

 

 

I yelled about "Revolution" and civil war plenty when I was a kid. Shit, I may live to see it yet. Only this time, I think I may be on the other side of the battlefield.

 

sounds like a decision based on blocking out a time when your reasoning was irrational. and it is true that many anti-war activists also believe in their causes under irrational thinking, but it doesn't make all anti-war activism stupid. too bad you picked up rational thinking from "the other side of the battlefield"

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Guest duh-rye-won
Originally posted by killtheradio

it doesnt effect our little bubble so we dont care 666 bush is devil wait there is no devil darnit...

 

my friend died in the towers.

i have 2 friends in the military fighting in iraq.

 

consider my bubble effected.

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Completely, intimately, and thoroughly, none of us really know dick about any of this war shit beyond the limited range of knowledge we've been exposed to. Every scholar, military expert, liberal activist, right-wing gun-pusher, peacenik, politician, social critic, news anchor, author, ignorant redneck, false prophet, used-car salesman or whoever else the fuck we're becoming influenced by at any given point in time will inevitably kick us down some bullshit that'll fuck with our heads and make us believe in the gospel of holy conviction they'd have us worship, whether it's right or not. The only thing that's really real is the truth, and in this screwball fucking time we're given a broken plastic fork to dig up a "truth" buried 12,000 feet beneath the wreckage of colliding interests. Even our gut feelings are being fucked with.

 

Personally, I think this Iraq-invasion shit can eat a dick for one reason: the genuine possibility of being globally ass-fucked by a nuclear war. To me that's serious shit, and that's the only thing I can see through the thick haze of political and ethical crack-smoke the GW team is blowing in everyone's faces right now, including all the crazy motherfuckers sitting on enough uranium and plutonium to provoke the U.S. into a full-scale thermonuclear fuck-fest of annihilation and chaos. We weren't even at war when those maniac plane-jackers rearranged this entire fucking country. Imagine how fucked up shit could get in the next few years, now that the arab world is finally UNITING against us, and that monkey motherfucker is sitting in the White House floating his shaky little pinky finger over the "red button."

 

My opinion on the war, for whatever it's worth: against it.

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Risk of Nuclear War has always been there

 

Since about 1947 or '48, when the Soviets finally admitted they had the Bomb, and a way to get one to us. I'm not sure of the exact year. Back in the 1950's the sociologists used to say that "living in the Shadow of the Bomb" was he reason that 1950's teenagers were so fucked up. Personally, I never bought that Rebel Without A Cause stuff.

 

What changed the teenaged world wasn't the nuclear bomb, it was the availability of the automobile, in my opinion.

 

One of the things that has profoundly changed the teenaged world since the 1970's is the end of the Draft. The Draft has been gone now almost as long as it's last permutation existed. We hated the Draft, but it had some very positive effects especially in the late '50s and the '60s. For one thing, it exposed millions of young American men, of various races and backgrounds, to other young American men of various races and backgrounds. It was, despite all my whining about it, a very democratizing influence, once the "color barrier" was broken in the 1940's, and segregated military units were ended in the 1950's. The Marine Corps, always considered the most racist of the armed forces, was the first service to be integrated, because they were also the most disciplined. Essentially, they do whatever they are told to do, and in the early Fifties, they were ordered to integrate. And they did so. Once the Marines successfully integrated, the Army, Navy and Air Force quickly followed. Today, the armed forces are one of the most integrated, least racist institutions in the entire country. About thirty percent of the Marine Corps is black, and well over 50% of the senior NCO corps. It's not because of any bullshit scheme to sacrifice young black men for global hegemony---it's because the military is a good, steady career with excellent benefits and excellent retirement after 20 years. I've talked to a lot of middle-aged black guys on their second career who enlisted at age 17, retired at AGE THIRTY-SEVEN, and are now working on a second career (maybe the U.S. Post Office) from which they will retire at age FIFTY-SEVEN. That means TWO retirement checks.

Sounds like forty years of shit to you guys, but I'm 53. If I had done this^^^, I'd be completely retired in four years or less. I did not do this. I did as I pleased, instead. Eleven more years, minimum, before I can kick it. If I live so long. Even if I had stayed in when I enlisted late, at age 26, I'd STILL already be retired from one job (at age 46) with half pay coming in every month.

 

But, oh gosh, my main concern is whether or not it will negatively impact the Third World. I'd like to do my part by retiring in Belize, preferably close to a bar.

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