johnny Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 Originally posted by Glik0 FUCK THE EARTH GIVE SUICIDE A CHANCE. hahahahahhahahah...ughhh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumPuncher Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 Originally posted by Dr. Dazzle ...how they've thrown out everything in their houses made in Germany and won't eat French fries.... Considering the French dont eat french fries... jokes on the US. And honestly... If anyone is tossing out their Mercedes or their BMW... let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dukeofyork Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 damn hippies.... all they do is smoke pot and smell bad........ and cry about peace. :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveAustin Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 Originally posted by Kilo7- Considering the French dont eat french fries... jokes on the US. And honestly... If anyone is tossing out their Mercedes or their BMW... let me know. beauty of being an American....your free...to be a dumbass. freedom fries? sheesh. oh yeah...as far as freeing a Mercedes or BMW...dibs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomadawhat Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 well, damn, that solves the mystery to why i recieved all those dirty looks when i ordered a royale with cheese and french fries yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poop Man Bob Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 This is utterly useless. This is what the mall's PR firm sent me: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: March 5, 2003 CONTACT: Karen M. Liberatore/Earl V. Wells E-3 Communications 716-854-8182 STATEMENT BY TIM KELLEY, DIRECTOR OF OPERATIONS, PYRAMID MALL MANAGEMENT REGARDING CROSSGATES MALL On the evening of March 3, Crossgates Mall security received a complaint regarding two individuals disrupting customers. The individuals were approached by security because of their actions and interference with other shoppers. Their behavior, coupled with their clothing, to express to others their personal views on world affairs were disruptive of customers. Crossgates’ management is committed to maintaining the mall as a family-friendly facility that provides a secure and enjoyable experience for all its visitors while allowing merchants a prosperous place to do business. While Crossgates Mall is perceived by some to be a public place, it is privately owned. The courts have affirmed that private properties, including shopping malls, have the right to restrict actions and behaviors deemed inconsistent with its intended purpose -- in this case a shopping environment. The existing rules of conduct at Crossgates Mall strictly prohibit loitering, disorderly or disruptive conduct, harassment, offensive language, fighting or any illegal activity. The Mall will not tolerate violations of these regulations. In this instance, mall management given the information provided to them, determined the customers in question were violating mall policy. Information has surfaced regarding future demonstrations at Crossgates Mall. Mall management cannot and will not allow this type of activity to occur and will be vigilant in enforcing the rules of conduct which provide a safe and comfortable environment for visitors, merchants and employees. -MORE- 2-2-2 In light of recent events, it is important to note that Crossgates Mall has long been a safe, friendly atmosphere for shopping, dining and entertainment. Local media officials are urged to follow the Mall’s media policy that directs media organizations to contact the marketing office at Crossgates (518-xxx-xxxx) to ask for on-site approval and admittance. ### PYRAMID OFFICIALS WILL BE AVAILABLE FOR COMMENT. CONTACT KAREN LIBERATORE AT E-3 COMMUNICATIONS FOR ADDITIONAL INFORMATION AT 716-854-8182 roe - when you spoke with them, did they specify how they were "disrupting" customers? Or did they use overly general terms while avoiding any specific facts, as they have here ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Dazzle Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 Originally posted by Kilo7- Considering the French dont eat french fries... jokes on the US. And honestly... If anyone is tossing out their Mercedes or their BMW... let me know. Yeah I know, but it's the fact that they have the word French in them. Like someone said, some places have started calling them Freedom Fries.... :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumPuncher Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 I swear this is an Onion news piece. I could have sworn that I read on the Onion that people are calling it deepkissing, cheese and onion soup and pubic ticklers. just day it... FRENCH! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
•nakEd Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 wheres my wifes gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suburbian bum Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 I cant beleive you guys blindly jumped on that. You should know that the news never gives the whole story. Obviously they were demonstrating or telling people their beleifs. Which i totally agree with but i guess if its against mall policy it is. There could of been an article "Man arrested for wearing shoes" everyone would get mad, but in reality he was wearing shoes with knifes in them in an airport. You get the point, Media: ALWAYS HAS A BIAS. And just because you want to beleive what its saying doesnt mean its true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poop Man Bob Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Originally posted by suburbian bum I cant beleive you guys blindly jumped on that. You should know that the news never gives the whole story. Obviously they were demonstrating or telling people their beleifs. Which i totally agree with but i guess if its against mall policy it is. There could of been an article "Man arrested for wearing shoes" everyone would get mad, but in reality he was wearing shoes with knifes in them in an airport. You get the point, Media: ALWAYS HAS A BIAS. And just because you want to beleive what its saying doesnt mean its true. Okay, point taken. But to play the same card - you're taking a public relations firm's word as God's truth. They are paid to bend the truth to their client's advantage - you should know that. Sure, all news has an underlying motive - generate more readers and thus more revenue. But PR firms have a motive as well - make their client look good, regardless of the situation. Furthermore, the press release stated they were "disrupting" customers. "Disrupting" is such a vague and ambiguous term that you can't automatically take it to mean "demonstrating or telling people their beliefs," as you apparently did. I'm sure the PR firm used the term disrupting because peoples' imaginations will tend to take it and run - expanding the 3-sentence fact statement into whatever their minds can come up with. I'm sure the truth lies somewhere in the middle, although I'm still inclined to lean towards the news' version. As a result of the previous protest at the mall, I believe the security guards had been told to remove anyone wearing shirts similar to those worn by the original protestors. When they asked and the guy refused, they were forced with a bad situation .. which we all know about now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suburbian bum Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Poopman, I totally agree 100%. The truth is in the middle. I was just concerned that everyone jumped on this thing so quickly and got all angry withought questioning it. I didnt mean to attack any people who responded to the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken E. Bus Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 This whole controversy raises a lot of serious questions. First off as to the press release these are PR guys (spin doctors) who are looking to right the least compromising statement possible. And the way they worded it I find it hard to believe. The individuals were approached by security because of their actions and interference with other shoppers. Their behavior, coupled with their clothing, to express to others their personal views on world affairs were disruptive of customers. In other words not only their clothing but their ACTIONS was disruptive. Somehow you have overlooked that this was not a young dirty hippie. This is a 61 year old man and his son. And the man is a state attorney that sits on a judicial review committee. I have a hard time believing that he is lying. For one he probably doesn't have it in him. I would bet he is a recently converted conservative or similar, I doubt he would jump right into direct action protest. He might join a rally or something but I doubt this duo was really doing much. Second there have been nobody coming forward to support or deny his claims. In this twisted society that we live in if he was truly being out of line someone would want to go on TV or get in the paper to tell about it. Legally this becomes a complicated issue and will probably be case law. Either ruling would cause major issues. I'm going to go eat but I'll check back later. Before I leave think about this. If the case law is changed so that customers can wear whatever they want as long as the attire/or lack thereof was legal into any public or private space, that would open up a whole can of worms. Let's say somebody wanted to go to the mall and wear only a bikini or a speedo. Not so bad you say. What if that person was excessivly hairy and life threateningly obese. No the picture changes. But they would be okay and no one could say anything about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poop Man Bob Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Ken E. Bus: 1 - Although I am by no means an expert on First Amendment issues, the mall is private property and they may ask people to leave their premises for whatever reason they see fit to put forth. 2 - In no way will this be case law. The charges will be dropped. Even if they aren't, this is not the first instance a invitee has been asked to leave business premises because of their clothes or actions. For instance, the Seattle Mariners banned the wearing of "Yankees Suck" t-shirts during a 3-game homestand this past season. This isn't a novel situation. The only thing that sets it apart is what was actually on the shirt - a peaceful message rather than a vulgar one (albeit true - the Yankees do suck). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnQAdams Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story...wsdate=3/5/2003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken E. Bus Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Re: Ken E. Bus: Originally posted by Poop Man Bob 1 - Although I am by no means an expert on First Amendment issues, the mall is private property and they may ask people to leave their premises for whatever reason they see fit to put forth. 2 - In no way will this be case law. The charges will be dropped. Even if they aren't, this is not the first instance a invitee has been asked to leave business premises because of their clothes or actions. For instance, the Seattle Mariners banned the wearing of "Yankees Suck" t-shirts during a 3-game homestand this past season. This isn't a novel situation. The only thing that sets it apart is what was actually on the shirt - a peaceful message rather than a vulgar one (albeit true - the Yankees do suck). Again this is not your average joe. This is a big time state attorney and he has brought in the ACLU. This will not be criminal case law but it will definately go to civil trial and will probably change laws within New York at least. It may not be a novel situation regarding the action of property owners but they may have picked on the wrong guy this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mental invalid Posted March 6, 2003 Author Share Posted March 6, 2003 oooh......loving the discussions of legal ramifications and the debate.... cant wait to see where the story goes....but i enjoyed reading your guys take on it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poop Man Bob Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Re: Re: Ken E. Bus: Originally posted by Ken E. Bus Again this is not your average joe. This is a big time state attorney and he has brought in the ACLU. This will not be criminal case law but it will definately go to civil trial and will probably change laws within New York at least. It may not be a novel situation regarding the action of property owners but they may have picked on the wrong guy this time. So what would his claim be in a civil action? The only issue I see is what was mentioned in the article posted by JohnQAdams: "Heidi Siegfried, interim executive director of the Capital Region chapter of the New York Civil Liberties Union, said, 'We have the position that the public space in the mall should be a First Amendment protected activity. Even when they have the right to control and prohibit ... someone shouldn't be removed when doing activity consistent with the normal uses of the mall.'" However, just because the ACLU believes law should be changed in no way changes the law automatically. You're jumping to conclusions in that judges will buy their argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken E. Bus Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Re: Re: Re: Ken E. Bus: Originally posted by Poop Man Bob So what would his claim be in a civil action? 'We have the position that the public space in the mall should be a First Amendment protected activity. Even when they have the right to control and prohibit ... someone shouldn't be removed when doing activity consistent with the normal uses of the mall.' Actually I agree with this and I am not jumping to any conclusions. I said that it would be case law not necessarily which way. But on an interesting note, I thought people were overlooking who this guy was so I started to research him. I was having a hard time finding anything so I went to the New York Commission on Judicial Conduct which he is supposed to work with. He was not listed as a member of the panel. I did a search on his name and it brought back several links. Each of which could not be found. So then I started looking at the decisions for one of the names listed in the search. The 1999 decisions could not be located and the names weren't on any other of the years. I'm still looking, but I am sure most of you are as good or better searchers than I am so I wanted to let you know what I had found so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest El Duce Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Originally posted by Kilo7- Considering the French dont eat french fries... jokes on the US. And honestly... If anyone is tossing out their Mercedes or their BMW... let me know. The French eat French Fries, they are called "Frites" I hate you stupid Americans and your Peace sign teeshirts. Go roll in your own shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poop Man Bob Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Argh. Well, I've already had my say on the case law issue: 2 - In no way will this be case law. The charges will be dropped. Even if they aren't, this is not the first instance a invitee has been asked to leave business premises because of their clothes or actions. For instance, the Seattle Mariners banned the wearing of "Yankees Suck" t-shirts during a 3-game homestand this past season. This isn't a novel situation. The only thing that sets it apart is what was actually on the shirt - a peaceful message rather than a vulgar one (albeit true - the Yankees do suck). Case law stems from situations that present novel situations that courts have yet to adjudicate. This situation is not novel; courts have adjudicated similar situations multiple times. Buuuuut ... maybe you're right. If the ACLU can convice NY courts to change their position and rule that the public space in a mall should be protected by the First Amendment, then it will be case law. But I still doubt the courts will rule that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poop Man Bob Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 This took me 10 seconds on Martindale.com: Stephen F. Downs 38-40 State Street Albany, New York (Albany Co.) Born 1942; Admitted 1969; Amherst College, B.A.; Cornell University, J.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poop Man Bob Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 And there's information on him here: http://www.scjc.state.ny.us/General%20Info...Pages/staff.htm Stephen F. Downs, Chief Attorney (Albany), is a graduate of Amherst College and Cornell Law School. He served in India as a member of the Peace Corps from 1964 to 1966. He was in private practice in New York City from 1969 to 1975, and he joined the Commission’s staff in 1975 as a staff attorney. He has been Chief Attorney in charge of the Commission’s Albany office since 1978. Stephen F. Downs Chief Attorney downs@nysnet.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken E. Bus Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 I came up with pretty much the same information. Just took me longer. I think it will be interesting to watch anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mental invalid Posted March 6, 2003 Author Share Posted March 6, 2003 in another words.........not the guy you wanna fuck with....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferris Bueller Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Originally posted by Vandal4Life Thanks for that number Poop Man Bob. I always have fun complaining about shit. Prior complaints I've made: - Abercrombie and Fitch - Mc Donald's - Governor Gray Davis - California Pizza Kitchen - George W Bush - Acapulco resturant - Chevy's resturant for putting their food in heating lamps. Gross. Don't give yourself away man. Those are both Mexican restaurants. I think I know where you live... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xwibxonex Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 oh boo hoo, they fail to mention that they dont want conflict arising between anti war protestors and war protestors, that simple. If i was in a mall i wouldnt want people rocking blood or crip on their t-shirt, bad argument yes, but there two conflicting sides that people do tend to get carried away with. believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metallix Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 it does have an orwellian aspect to it, but it also goes back to the college argument of malls replacing public space. if u take the stores off the street and put them in a mall, these things happen. private property doesn't fall under the constitution usually..so i guess he should have just left the mall. you can protest and do whatever you want on the street in front of the mall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_gooch Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 name that band Finally got to Washington in the middle of the night I couldn't wait I headed straight for the Capitol Mall My heart began to pound Yahoo! It really exists The American International Pictures logo I looked up at that Capitol Building Couldn't help but wonder why I felt like saying "Hello, old friend" Walked up the hill to touch it Then I unzipped my pants And pissed on it when nobody was looking Like a great eternal Klansman With his two flashing red eyes Turn around he's always watching The Washington monument pricks the sky With flags like pubic hair ringed 'round the bottom The symbols of our heritage Lit up proudly in the night Somehow fits to see the homeless people Passed out on the lawn So this is where it happens The power games and bribes All lobbying for a piece of ass Of the stars and stripes of corruption Makes me feel so ashamed To be an American When we're too stuck up to learn from our mistakes Trying to start another Viet Nam Whilke fiddling while Rome burns at home The Boss says, "You're laid off. Blame the Japanese" "America's back," alright At the game it plays the worst Strip mining the world like a slave plantation No wonder others hate us And the Hitlers we handpick To bleed their people dry For our evil empire The drug we're fed To make us like it Is God and country with a band People we know who should know better Howl, "America riles. Let's go to war!" Business scams are what's worth dying for Are the Soviets our worst enemy? We're destroying ourselves instead Who cares about our civil rights As long as I get paid? The blind Me-Generation Doesn't care if life's a lie so easily used, so proud to enforce The stars and stripes of corruption Let's bring it all down! Tell me who's the real patriots The Archie Bunker slobs waving flags? Or the people with the guts to work For some real change Rednecks and bombs don't make us strong We loot the world, yet we can't even feed ourselves Our real test of strength is caring Not the toys of war we sell the world Just carry on, thankful to be farmed like worms Old glory for a blanket As you suck on your thumbs Real freedom scares you 'Cos it means responsibility So you chicken out and threaten me Saying, "Love it or leave it" I'll get beat up if I criticize it You say you'll fight to the death To save your worthless flag If you want a banana republic that bad Why don't you go move to one But what can just one of us do? Against all that money and power Trying to crush us into roaches? We don't destroy society in a day Until we change ourselves first From the inside out We can start by not lying so much And treating other people like dirt It's easy not to base our lives On how much we can scam And you know It feels good to lift that monkey off our backs I'm thankful I live in a place Where I can say the things I do Without being taken out and shot So I'm on guard against the goons Trying to take my rights away We've got to rise above the need for cops and laws Let kids learn communication Instead of schools pushing competition How about more art and theater instead of sports? People will always do drugs Let's legalize them Crime drops when the mob can't price them Budget's in the red? Let's tax religion No one will do it for us We'll just have to fix ourselves Honesty ain't all that hard Just put Rambo back inside your pants Causing trouble for the system is much more fun Thank you for the toilet paper But your flag is meaningless to me Look around, we're all people Who needs countries anyway? Our land, I love it too I think I love it more than you I care enough to fight The stars and stripes of corruption Let's bring it all down! If we don't try If we just lie If we can't find A way to do it better than this Who will? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken E. Bus Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 New Info This is from a New York Times article. I won't post the whole thing since half of it is a rehash of the stuff we have already seen. Here is the important part. In a written statement today, Tim Kelley, director of operations for Pyramid Mall Management, which owns Crossgates Mall, said that security guards were responding to a complaint about Mr. Downs and his son. "The individuals were approached by security because of their actions and interference with other shoppers," he wrote. "Their behavior, coupled with their clothing, to express to others their personal views on world affairs were disruptive of customers." But Mr. Kelley did not elaborate on who made the complaint, or what the disruptive behavior was. Neither Mr. Kelley nor other mall officials responded to requests for interviews. Tonight, however, the Guilderland police chief, James Murley, said that the mall's management had called him today and asked if the trespassing charge against Stephen Downs could be withdrawn, The Associated Press reported. Officers arrested Mr. Downs only because he refused to leave private property when asked, Chief Murley said, noting that he would consult with the department's legal adviser on Thursday about whether to drop the charge. "With no complaint, I'm supportive of that," he said. Roger Downs denied that he and his father had acted in a disruptive manner, saying that they did not pass out any fliers and spoke only to two people who approached them to compliment them on their T-shirts. "In this time when your voice seems to mean very little, this is a nice, quiet, passive way of expressing yourself," he said. News of Mr. Downs's arrest has struck a chord of outrage among antiwar demonstrators and civil libertarians. Today, more than 150 people wearing T-shirts with antiwar slogans converged on Crossgates Mall to show support for Mr. Downs. The organizers said that one man was punched by a bystander who shouted, "Remember 9/11." No arrests were reported. The elder Mr. Downs, who works for the state's Commission on Judicial Conduct, did not participate in the rally, but he has been speaking to news organizations about his arrest. Though shopping malls are public gathering places, federal and state courts have ruled that they are privately owned companies that have a legal right to remove people who are disrupting their business. In recent years, some malls have prohibited outside activities, ranging from political candidates handing out fliers to reporters interviewing customers. Crossgates Mall has come under criticism in recent months after local news organizations reported that people displaying antiwar messages on their clothing were asked to leave the premises. Arthur Eisenberg, the legal director of the New York Civil Liberties Union, called Mr. Downs's arrest an example of a shopping mall trying to censor the free-speech rights of its patrons. "We wonder where such censorship will end," he said. "Will the mall start prohibiting customers from wearing political buttons? Will it prohibit Sikhs from wearing turbans? The ultimate point is that we are a diverse society in which individuals hold diverse views." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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